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The Point Problem: Ramon Sessions

If not Stuckey, then whom?  We've talked about the free agent class, we've explored the trade options and determined that three possible upgrade opportunities may be available.  The great Bearded Thundar has analyzed Darren Collison, which leaves Ramon Sessions and Jarrett Jack for evaluation.  What is it that has earned Sessions the admiration of Mike Payne stat-heads and die hards?  Find out after the jump.

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Star-divide

Part One: The History

The Breakout


On April 14th 2008, Ramon Sessions filled in for the injured Mo Williams against the Chicago Bulls.  Sessions recorded 24 assists, 20 points and 8 rebounds in his 6th NBA start.  I watched the game, and needless to say-- I was hooked.  In case you haven't seen that performance, here is highlight footage of Sessions' play.  Note the common assist partner in this game: Charlie Villanueva.  Under Sessions' direction, Villanueva shot 8-12 from the field for 22 points.

The Back-Story


Sessions was not expected to enter the 2007 NBA draft.  He would have spent his senior year at Nevada before declaring, but his performance in the Pre-Draft Camp in Orlando wowed GMs and led him to declare a year early.  Here's what Draft Express said of Sessions' play at the camp, before comparing him to a young Tony Parker:

"In a camp full of solid point guard play, it would be hard to argue that anybody fared better than Nevada underclassman Ramon Sessions. Sessions isn’t the most imposing athlete out there. He has decent quickness, but a slight frame, and was at an overall physical disadvantage against almost every point guard in the camp. Yet it was Sessions who put up the most impressive statistics (13 points per game, 13 total assists compared with just 1 lone turnover). He was able to get to the basket, and did as good a job as any point guard in the camp at creating for his teammates and running the offense."

Milwaukee drafted Sessions with the 56th pick in the 2007 draft, then sent him to the D-League for development while Mo Williams and Charlie Bell manned the minutes at the point for the Bucks.  In two-and-a-half months in the D-league, Sessions averaged 21 points, 8 assists, 7 rebounds and 2 steals per game across 24 games.  In January of 2008, Sessions was called up to the Bucks and sat out with an injured wrist until joining the team on the court in March.

The Early Concerns


GMs had little interest in Sessions due to concerns about his athleticism, size/strength, shooting touch and ability to defend bigger players.  This began the one constant in his NBA career: undervaluation.  He was not considered NBA-ready by GMs, but proved himself to be worthy of a pick with his Pre-Draft performance.  He was not considered ready by the Bucks, but then exploded in the D-League.  When Mo Williams went down with an injury in April of 2008, Sessions earned the last 7 starts of the season.  In that stretch, Sessions recorded 6 games with double digit assists, averaging 13 points, 13 assists and 2 steals on 47% shooting (with 40% from three).  This included that 24-assist explosion against Chicago (which was followed by a 25/14/7/3 game two days later).

Sophomore Season


Going in to the 2008-09 NBA season, concerns about Sessions' game remained.  He did not trust his jumper during his rookie season, attempting 11 shots per game while dishing out 13 assists.  In terms of point guard purity, this makes Sessions as pure as it comes, but his shooting touch was still very suspect.  Additionally, Sessions' bright play at the end of his rookie season came with some poor defensive performances on a team with zero defensive identity.  Beyond Ramon's short stint, however, the Bucks were the worst team in the league in terms of opponent field goal percentage and 4th worst in point differential in 2008.

In contrast to his measurements pre-draft, Sessions now measured 2" taller and had put on muscle, measuring at 6'3" and weighing 190 pounds.  Milwaukee still didn't feel that he was ready to start for 82 games, so the team signed Luke Ridnour to run the point.  Yet Milwaukee showed that the concerns about Ramon's size were behind them, moving him to start at shooting guard after Michael Redd went down with an injury.  In six starts at SG, Sessions scored 16 points per game leading Scott Skiles to switch-up his lineup and give Ramon Sessions the start at his natural position at the point.

Ironically, that first start at the point was on February 7th against the Detroit Pistons.  Ramon scored 44 points on 72% shooting, dished out 12 assists and pulled down 5 rebounds.  For many Pistons fans, this was our first introduction to Ramon Sessions.  In that game and the 29 games that followed, Sessions averaged 15.1 points on 46% shooting and 8 assists per game.  For the stat-heads: with Michael Redd and Andrew Bogut out, Sessions led his team in seasonal +/-, Roland Rating and was 2nd in PER and win shares and third in wins produced.

Remaining Concerns


Like Tony Parker and Rodney Stuckey, Sessions is not an outside shooter and may never develop a 3-point game.  While he has made some clutch shots from range (like this steal and buzzer beater against the Wizards), his game is almost entirely about penetration or jumpers within 10 feet.  Of the 775 shots he attempted in 2008-09, 432 were layups at the basket, on which he converted at 52%.  In the 2008-09 NBA season, Sessions proved himself as an apt defender and a true floor leader capable of managing an offense.  His range, however, did not improve.

At the end of Sessions' contract, the Bucks had a big problem and a great opportunity.  They entered the off-season just $1.9 million under the luxury tax-- and they had a high lottery pick in what could be one of the best point guard drafts in NBA history.  Even matching Sessions' $16 million offer from Minnesota would have been problematic post-trades, especially when the Bucks had a chance at an immediate contributor with the 10th pick in the 2009 NBA draft.

Minnesota


In September of 2009, Sessions signed a $16 million contract with the Timberwolves.  Sessions was signed as a veteran alternative behind the number five and six draft picks of 2009, point guards Johnny Flynn and Ricky Rubio.  ESPN's John Hollinger had this to say of the signing:

"Sessions signed a four-year, $16 million offer sheet with Minnesota that the Bucks inexplicably elected not to match. This was the steal of the summer, people. Sessions is a rising star at the point who should provide the T'wolves with a major upgrade while bridging the gap until Jonny Flynn and/or Ricky Rubio are ready."


However, Sessions wasn't used to "bridge the gap", he was used as a backup, an insurance player while Minnesota focuses on the development of Johnny Flynn.  The Timberwolves remain high on Flynn, whom they think has a higher ceiling than Sessions and the outside game Ramon may never develop.  Sessions was used as a cross-positional backup, not employed as a distributor as often, and (like Kevin Love) had trouble grasping the triangle offense of coach Kurt Rambis.  However, Sessions was one of three players who statistically made the team better on the court, as well as Love and Jefferson.  You can bet that Sessions now regrets turning down offers from the Knicks, where he likely would have started the full season under Mike D'Antoni.

Part Two: The Opportunity

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Minnesota is in dire need of help at the wing, a position Detroit is over-stacked with.  Sessions is not a good fit in Minny, and it may not take much to pry him away.  The price for Sessions is low but the opportunity is very, very high.

As stated, Ramon Sessions has a history of being under-valued, an underdog who clawed his way into the draft, fought through the D-League and excelled when given his minutes.  He's the exact type of mis-understood player that makes GMs look brilliant, a no-name journeyman who has shown that he can excel in the right circumstances.  Can you think of any NBA GM with a reputation for turning players like that into stars?

The Details
  • Ramon Sessions
  • Point Guard
  • 6'3"
  • 190 lbs.
  • 23 years old
  • $12.8 million remaining on contract through 2013
Playing Style


Sessions has played like the "point guard of the future" we'd all hoped Rodney Stuckey would become.  He's an excellent to-the-basket slasher, an efficient finisher and an apt distributor.  When given starter's minutes at the point, he's averaged 14.7 points on 44.3% shooting, 8.4 assists, 4.3 rebounds and 1.4 steals in 47 games as a starter.  He can play the point and the off guard on both ends of the floor, having developed a respectable defensive game upon committing himself under defensive stalwart Scott Skiles.  Before the draft, Sessions was considered to a younger, less athletic version of Tony Parker, and the positive aspects of those comparisons remain today.

Here's a comparison between Ramon Sessions and Tony Parker at 22 (the year in which the Spurs defeated the Pistons in the NBA finals):

In even minutes, Sessions is a superior passer, rebounder and free throw shooter-- with Sessions actually earning more free throw attempts than Tony Parker.  This is a particularly strong point in Sessions game, in that he excels at drawing contact and getting to the free throw line, better even than one of the league's most notorious referee darlings.

Comparisons to Rodney Stuckey


As mentioned above, Sessions has performed like the player we hoped Stuckey would become.  The hope for Stuckey was that he would become a Tony Parker style player, a to-the-basket point guard who could penetrate and pass, draw contact and finish efficiently at the rim.  In three seasons, Stuckey has shown to be a poor finisher at the rim (48-49% in the last two seasons), whereas Sessions finished between 52% and 54% in the same stretch.  Sessions is clearly a superior passer and leader of an offense, averaging 3.5 more assists per game as a starter.  In terms of drawing contact, Sessions drew two more foul shots per game than Stuckey in even minutes last year (in that 44-point game against Detroit, he attempted 21 free throws).  Sessions achieves all this despite a physically inferior frame-- Ramon is two inches shorter and 15 pounds lighter than Stuckey, with clearly less muscle.  Also, according to defensive rating stats and net production by position, Sessions is superior to Stuckey on defense.

We want Stuckey to be a better passer, to finish better at the rim, to shoot more efficiently across the board and to show he can actively lead an offense.  He has still not taken those steps, and if this season was any indication, there are little to no signs for improvement in any of those categories.  Sessions represents those upgrades out-of-the-box, proving he can dominate in the way we'd hoped Stuckey would.

How Would Ramon Sessions Fit?


Since Joe Dumars designed this team around the skill set of an improved Rodney Stuckey, Ramon Sessions would be a perfect fit in this system.  A backcourt of Ramon Sessions and Ben Gordon could be deadly for a myriad of reasons.  Like Stuckey, Sessions is a cross-positional guard, capable of guarding opposing 1's and 2's (and under Scott Skiles watch, no less).  On defense, Ben Gordon can guard opposing point guards and Sessions can switch off on the 2 guard.  On offense, Sessions' lack of an outside shot would be masked by Gordon, whose efficient 3-point shooting can sustain a backcourt alone.  Sessions often passes by pulling defenders on to him and passing to an open 3-point shooter, as evidenced by the video at the top of this report.  Gordon and Villanueva can park at the 3-point line all day, and Sessions will find a way to pull a defender and feed them the ball.

Speaking of Villanueva, he and Sessions have plenty of history, with Sessions accounting for countless CV baskets in 2008-09.  When Villanueva was at his best last season, Sessions was running the point.  In total, Sessions' cross-positional nature, style of play and history with our long-term players makes him an unusually ideal fit.  Throughout every potentially available player in the league, Sessions may have the best skill set and history to make our big free agent signings produce in line with their contracts.

The Price


Unlike Darren Collison, acquiring Ramon Sessions could carry very little cost.  At the very least, a package of Chris Wilcox, a second rounder and any one of Bynum(s&t)/Daye/Summers could be enough to acquire Sessions, but it might take a larger investment.  Detroit could continue with its plans to rebuild its frontcourt with the #7 pick and trades involving Prince and Hamilton.  It has been suggested that Dumars wants to upgrade the Pistons frontcourt and point guard positions, and this move could be the lowest cost, highest output opportunity.  Sessions numbers fell in Minnesota, but not as a result of a lack of talent.  There is little risk for taking on Ramon Sessions, and in the off chance that he does fail, the initial investment is negligable.  But hey, for every time he's been under-valued in his career, he's fought throught it and excelled.  Now he stands to make a wise GM look brilliant if given the chance.

The last time Dumars acquired a misused, misunderstood, journeyman point guard from the Timberwolves, it didn't turn out too badly...

Comment 63 comments  |  9 recs  | 

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Free Ramon Sessions!

The misuse of Sessions is pretty much a microcosm of Kurt Rambis’ stupid bullshit. Jonny Flynn sucks. He’s inefficient (97 Ortg, negative offensive win shares) and plays no defense whatsoever. I realize he was a top 10 pick, but they shafted Sessions for arguably the worst starting point guard in the NBA last season. Hopefully we can use Rambis’ idiocy to our advantage and steal Sessions for nothing.

Great job, MP. I think most of the DBB community has had a man crush on Sessions ever since he dominated us in that 40+/10+ game. He’d be an awesome table setter for our offensive guys, and I could see him being like a cross between Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups. Fingers crossed that Dumars goes after him.

"Ford! You're turning into a Penguin! Stop it!"
-Arthur Dent

by Thom_not_Tom on Jun 3, 2010 12:57 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Thanks MFTNT! My only knock on the guy is that he likely won’t ever develop an outside game. Thing is, he’s performed well without it and is wise enough not to take shots he knows he can’t make. His mid-range game is developing, increasing around 2% per year. At 23, he’s got a few years to go before he peaks so there is plenty of potential for upside.

Also, I’ve only heard positives about dude’s attitude and commitment to development, he’s been a positive factor in the locker room thus far.

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 3, 2010 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

also

beyond the comparisons to Parker, he’s quite similar to Rondo. their second season comparisons are pretty spot on:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=6U0GV

Rondo is much more efficient when shooting from the field, but Sessions made up for it by drawing a lot more fouls and shooting better from the stripe (which results in Sessions owning a better TS%). Their biggest difference is defense, where Rondo is clearly superior (which really isn’t saying much, as Rondo is one of the top defensive point guards in recent history). But in the season before Rondo exploded, he laid the same statistical groundwork for development as Sessions has. That’s not to say that Sessions will improve like Rondo did, only that they produced very similar numbers their collective sophomore years.

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 3, 2010 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

in all fairness

Rondo has one of the best big rotations behind him, where as Sessions has never had more than one solid defensive big. I wouldn’t be suprised if the defensive numbers leveled out if you put Ramon on that specific Celtics team.

If you can get Sessions for Wilcox, a 2011 second rounder and Summers I say do it. Even if they want Will Bynum, I still say do it. I agree that it’s a very low risk investment and I think Sessions would appreciate this situation much more, where he would actually be running the point.

I would just put Stuckey on the bench and give him full control there (doesn’t matter which guard position, just give him the ball), he seems to be more comfortable there and actually had his best moments as a point guard with the second unit 2 years ago. That gives you a lot of flexibility, as you could even play Stuck and Ramon together in a small ball lineup – talk about speed and slashing ability.

by bearded thundar on Jun 3, 2010 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Wolves would never do that trade. You’d have to give up Austin Daye. The Wolves are looking for talent, not borderline NBA players like Wilcox and Summers.

by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Jun 3, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wilcox and Summers suck. They’re included here because they both have expiring contracts which equate directly to Sessions’ contract. Beyond the contract relief, Minny would be offered a second round pick and possibly a signed-and-traded Bynum. Any more than that, and Minny would have to include more contracts and Detroit would too.

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 3, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Believe me, they have plenty of cap room and they won’t be willing to give up a young piece just for cap room. They wouldn’t want to sign Bynum either when they have Rubio coming the following season.

by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Jun 4, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

they're not giving up a piece just for cap room

the cap room is to negate the contract they’re in with sessions as a starting point to negotiations. then we basically let Minny show what they’re interested in— then a pick or two plus bynum (to solve the hole sessions left at the point) or daye (for a wing player with a high ceiling), and if those aren’t of interest then Detroit and Minny have to begin talking about a larger deal.

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 4, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

They’re not going to invest in another PG if they have Rubio coming next year, they also are not going to want any more 2nd round picks when they already have two this year and three first round picks. If they acquired Wilcox and Summers both would be released, they have no value to the Wolves.

by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Jun 4, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only players the Wolves would have any interest in would be Daye and the 7th pick.

by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Jun 4, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sessions, Hollins, and the 16th pick for Daye and the 7th pick? More realistic than Wilcox, Summers, and a 2nd Round pick for Sessions.

by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Jun 4, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

are you kidding me?

daye and the 7th for your backup PG and junk?

More realistic than Wilcox, Summers, and a 2nd Round pick for Sessions.

My suggestions was wilcox + summers to drop sessions salary, then include Daye and a second rounder and Detroit would take back a salary-equivalent bad contract. As I said above, if that doesn’t work, the negotiation would have to be about a larger trade with larger salaries.

And of course Wilcox and Summers would be released, that’s the whole point.

My point in mentioning those two players is that they would neutralize the commitment to Sessions’ salary— and then a deal can be build on top of that with actual talent.

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 4, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just saying outside of Daye and the 7th pick the Pistons have nothing of value to the Wolves.

by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Jun 4, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’m glad you’re not their GM

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 4, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

there's always room for JEREBKO

…and if you dare dispute my claim, yous a goddamn liar

"The Lakers were favored 8 to 1 odds to beat the Pistons. Bullshit." - Bill Davidson, Championship parade, 2004

by Skylar on Jun 5, 2010 5:23 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Totally agreed re: Stuckey

If we can hold on to Stuckey and not include him in this trade or otherwise, I’d love to keep him as our 6th man. Behind Sessions and Gordon, Stuck can come in, dominate the ball and dice up the opponent’s bench. That’s the role he was built for, and I’m convinced he’d excel if played there. (granted, he might be too expensive for that position when contract negotiations come up, but Joe likes to spend a lot of money on backup guards. . .)

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 3, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

We don't always agree

But if we can get more of a set-up and pace controlling point guard, I would also love to keep Stuckey as the 1st guard off the bench.

by Roll The Dyess on Jun 3, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

awesome!

…but , i think I like collison from nola better

by amazenhazen2 on Jun 3, 2010 8:59 AM EDT reply actions  

of course

But Collison is going to be much more expensive, and Mike made note of that. Sessions is on a team with a bazillion point guards. Granted I think he’s the best one (including Rubio), but their management clearly disagrees, meaning it shouldn’t cost that much to acquire him. However Collison, on the other hand, is only available because they already have CP3. Despite what Boney has said, there’s just no way they trade the face of their franchise, meaning NO is probably just waiting for the right offer.

by bearded thundar on Jun 3, 2010 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great post, MP!

Of the 3 PGs in this miniseries, I have to say I like Sessions the best overall. In the right circumstances, he’s a great value. I hope he’s an option Jod’s exploring.

by brgulker on Jun 3, 2010 9:07 AM EDT reply actions  

why is that? Sessions will probably be the best in terms of price:production, but Collison is clearly the most talented. He’s a better shooter, a good defender, scores more and generates tons of assists too. The only advantage Ramon has is turnovers, but he’s also had more years in the NBA to work on that.

by bearded thundar on Jun 3, 2010 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sessions is also a better fit for this roster. His size and cross-positional defensive ability give him a heads up over Collison, who would be problematic guarding SGs and lead to problems when paired with Ben Gordon. He’d be solid with Hamilton, and is an excellent defender on point guards, but he has less physical skill to switch off and defend 2s than Sessions does.

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 3, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Collison is the most talented, but he’s also going to be the most expensive. He’s probably unavailable, but if he isn’t, he’s going to cost us at minimum our best trade piece of the moment (Prince’s expiring contract) and will probably require taking on at least one crappy contract on top of that. In other words, he’s going to be very expensive.

As MP describes very well, Sessions is a nice complementary player given our roster and is likely to cost relatively little, leaving our best resources on the table to acquire bigs. He’s also very low-risk given his contract.

I’m still throwing my hat in with what MP said in his first post of this series — our first priority simply must be rebuilding the front court. Any move for a guard should be peripheral and secondary to that primary focus. I like Collison, and I don’t mean to rain on your parade or steal your thundar, but we need big men more than we need a PG (even though we really need a PG). So, if we can acquire a quality PG on the cheap, that’s the move that makes the most sense to me.

by brgulker on Jun 3, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

thanks ben!

I’m with you man, I hope Jod is on the phone with Minneapolis as we, uh, type.

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 3, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Conley

The Grizz are talking point guard in the draft, and even though they say backup to conley, I think i’ve seen enough disappointed talk about Jr. that makes me believe they may be looking to shop him.

Now here me out. He hasn’t shown anything yet that makes me believe he’ll be worth a damn, but everyone knows JOD loves taking risks on high draft picks that didn’t pan out immediately.

I’m thinking Marc Gasol may come in a package with Conley for say Prince(assuming Gay leaves) and a sign n traded Bynum. Of course memphis would need to add more for cap purposes, but if we got Gasol in the deal as well, would taking a chance on Conley be worth it?

I’m bringing this up here to recommend adding Conley to your pg analysis series, because I think he may be on JOD’s pg short list.

by Roll The Dyess on Jun 3, 2010 11:05 AM EDT reply actions  

Conley was included in the section on trade options, here. He’s not a bad player, but sadly doesn’t present a production upgrade over Stuckey. We’re on the same page though, he’d have value to the Pistons as part of a larger deal.

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 3, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Price

Good write up. As a wolves fan, I agree that Sessions was very poorly used this past season, and I agree that he still has value. What I want to talk about is the Price, because I think it will help you make more realistic trade options.

First, Minnesota does not need expiring contracts nor help in the front court. Minnesota is already $10+ Million under the cap and does not plan on signing a major free agent. Additionally, Minnesota wants to resign Milicic, their 2nd round Euro of the 2008 draft Nikola Pekovic wants to come over to the NBA next offseason, and it’s possible the BPA when they pick at #4 is a big. Currently that leaves Love, Jefferson, Darko, Pekovic, and Hollins in the frontcourt. No room for someone like Wilcox.

Second, in exit interview following the season, both Sessions and Flynn were promised an equal opporutnity at the starting position next season rather than force feeding Flynn minutes. They both know it’s an open competition and Sessions spoke to reporters about his excitement to compete for a starting position this year. Minnesota has no additional PG’s on the roster and this draft has no players at the PG beyond Wall. Rubio is not coming over until 2011 at the earliest. Trading away Sessions for Wilcox leaves a gaping whole at the backup PG slot.

In conclusion, I think Sessions could be available via trade, and you started off well in your the top of your story talking about the lack of wing talent on the Wolves roster and the many wing players on the Pistons roster, but then fizzled with the proposed deal. Minnesota has no incentive to give Sessions away for cap relief and 2nd round picks as it leaves a whole in the roster and they already have cap space. FYI, Minnesota already as 2 2nd round picks this year and 3 first round picks so an additional 2nd is almost a burden.

Interesting to hear more realistic trade proposals if your serious about acquiring Ramon Sessions.

by Ebomb on Jun 3, 2010 12:04 PM EDT reply actions  

I just read that the part you had included bynum/daye/summers. Clearly I’m poor at reading comprehension. My apologies, I think these are possible deals. Disregard what I said :)

by Ebomb on Jun 3, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

no worries Ebomb :) thanks for sharing your perspective!

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 3, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

IIRC, you’ve mentioned you don’t want Stuckey — is that correct, or do I have you confused with another commenter?

by brgulker on Jun 3, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like Sessions but don’t love him……..yet. These player analyses are really thorough and persuasive, though. Well done, fellas. I’m looking forward to the Jarrett Jack one since I’ve seen him play the most out of Collison/Sessions/Jack.

by garrettelliott on Jun 3, 2010 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

you're welcome to help with that one

As far as I know, no one has written the Jack piece yet. I do know that Mike offered it to gulker, but I don’t know whether he agreed to it or not

by bearded thundar on Jun 3, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

as far as I know

it is in the works right now :)

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 3, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love Sessions...

and he fits what a PG should be, smart with the ball. His shot selection is good because he knows what he’s capable of. He passes the ball well because he knows his team mates strength. Overall it makes him a player the Pistons should pursue.

I also agree on Stuckey. While I think he would do fine staring as the off guard, he is probably best suited as a 6th man ripping apart opposing benches. Unless his ability to pass and his range suddenly increases, this is his role.

Great write up. I offer Kudos.

by madpoopz on Jun 3, 2010 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks MFMPZ! I’m glad we see this the same way, it really makes so much sense.

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 3, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

It truly does.

especially since Detroit seems to be a home for under rated players to suddenly emerge.

by madpoopz on Jun 4, 2010 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's one of the best articles I've ever read on the Pistons

This should be in the Detroit News paper.

Practice safe sex. Go fuck yourself !

by DetBalla on Jun 3, 2010 3:53 PM EDT reply actions  

vs. Stuckey

I think there is too much emphasis here on player types vs. production. Yes, Sessions is better at some of the things we thought Stuckey would do.

However, Sessions regressed last year, which is a bad sign for such a potentially explosive scorer. He also missed free throws and turned the ball over more frequently.

Stuckey was a less efficient player, but also more prolific. Further, he shows some signs of a perimeter game, whereas Sessions has none.

History has not been kind to players who have substantially regressed during their early 20s. Yes, it is beyond absurd that Rambis chose to start the mediocre Flynn, but it isn’t as though Sessions did much to encourage him to change his mind. Mostly, he did very little with the ball, other than to turn it over.

Is he worth a flier at his price range? Sure. I still think the Pistons and Wolves have quite a bit to talk about w/r/t swapping picks, and he would almost necessarily be part of any package that accomplishes this.

by Kevin Sawyer on Jun 3, 2010 4:18 PM EDT reply actions  

However, Sessions regressed last year, which is a bad sign for such a potentially explosive scorer.

Sessions scoring is not his allure. His offensive leadership, court vision, passing and creating for teammates are the main competencies Detroit needs. 15 and 8 are his starting averages, and we wouldn’t need any more than that. Explosive scoring can come from the guys around him who were signed to score— like Gordon and Villanueva. Sessions is a distributor, first and foremost.

Yes, it is beyond absurd that Rambis chose to start the mediocre Flynn, but it isn’t as though Sessions did much to encourage him to change his mind.

I assume you watch a lot of Wolves ball up in Minny. Sessions was played in both guard positions behind and next to Jonny Flynn as the primary distributor. Sessions assist numbers dropped because he wasn’t given the task of running the offense, and he was placed in the triangle offense which doesn’t fit his standard pick-and-roll shot creation style. It was a terrible system for a guard like Sessions, on top of the fact that Rambis and co. wanted to develop Flynn as he might have a higher ceiling.

Stuckey was a less efficient player, but also more prolific.

I don’t think a player should be lauded for their usage rate, it’s generally not their doing.

Further, he shows some signs of a perimeter game, whereas Sessions has none.

Quite the opposite. Stuckey actually regressed this year on jumpers, where Sessions improved. In the last two seasons, Stuckey sank from 42% to 37% on mid-range and perimeter shots, whereas Sessions improved from 37% to 40%. If anything, Sessions is showing signs of improvement. Whether that improvement will extend to 3-point shots or not… I doubt it. But I dont’ know how anyone could argue that Stuckey is “showing signs of a perimeter game”. We may be watching different players.

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 3, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Usage rate is important in contextualizing efficiency. It is easier to be very efficient with limited possessions.

As far as outside shooting goes, virtually everyone’s perimeter game suffered last year. The lack of low post scoring had a lot to do with that. Stuckey’s ability to hit free throws is a solid predictor that he can develop a three point shot. Whether he will or not is a different question.

by Kevin Sawyer on Jun 4, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Usage rate is important in contextualizing efficiency. It is easier to be very efficient with limited possessions.

Then you’re not really saying anything of value about Stuckey, specifically. Increase Sessions’ usage rate, he’ll be more prolific— and his efficiency may drop.

As far as outside shooting goes, virtually everyone’s perimeter game suffered last year. The lack of low post scoring had a lot to do with that. Stuckey’s ability to hit free throws is a solid predictor that he can develop a three point shot. Whether he will or not is a different question.

Let’s just see if he can develop a mid-range game first.

Uh, me, new?

by Mike Payne on Jun 4, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is easier to be very efficient with limited possessions.

Why?

by brgulker on Jun 4, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

To put it better, if it’s easier to be efficient with limited possessions (which I don’t buy at the moment), then the converse is equally as true.

by brgulker on Jun 4, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because you are being more selective about your opportunities. Spot up shooters and put-back guys are very efficient scorers, but nobody would build a team around Mike Miller and Joel Przybilla.

And yes, the opposite is true. If you use more possessions to shoot, pass, etc…, you will make more mistakes. It’s similar to our discussion about Greg Monroe’s turnover rate. The best players are efficient and prolific.

by Kevin Sawyer on Jun 4, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is an aspect I always look at when Stuckey.

I think that with the unbalanced roster and the season of injuries the kid was put in a position which does not suit him and ended up affecting negatively his game.

Sort of related but sort of not too, I came out this season with a certain degree of admiration for the kid because he was very willing to do everything that was asked of him without complain. He was our PG, SG, SF, rebounder, post scorer, perimeter defender, etc. I think his numbered suffered for all the things our thing was lacking.

I like that he was so willing to fail for the team.

Where in the world is Cheikh Samb?

by Kriz on Jun 4, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

numbers*

I hate that there is no edit button. yeah, I know it has been brought up, but I feel like complaining.

Where in the world is Cheikh Samb?

by Kriz on Jun 4, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Weird

is he the only throwback player in this game? (I stopped playing NBA titles awhile back, I’m behind)

"The Lakers were favored 8 to 1 odds to beat the Pistons. Bullshit." - Bill Davidson, Championship parade, 2004

by Skylar on Jun 4, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. In fact, they have teams from 50s, 60s, 70s All Stars, etc.

Jordon is infamous for keeping his likeness out of video games.

by brgulker on Jun 4, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

he was in NBA Street vol. 2

…that’s the last one I remember him in, legit.

"The Lakers were favored 8 to 1 odds to beat the Pistons. Bullshit." - Bill Davidson, Championship parade, 2004

by Skylar on Jun 5, 2010 5:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

There was also Michael Jordan In Flight ages ago, back when computers were called IBMs. Looks beautiful, doesn’t it?

by garrettelliott on Jun 5, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think NBA Street Vol. 2 has been discussed on here before

but it was fantastic shit like this that made me love that game:

"The Lakers were favored 8 to 1 odds to beat the Pistons. Bullshit." - Bill Davidson, Championship parade, 2004

by Skylar on Jun 5, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was sick with a bad flu one time a few years ago and I moved a TV and my PS2 into the bedroom and played NBA Street V2 non-stop for 6 hours, then I’d sleep, then I’d play it again, then I’d sleep. It was awesome. Except for the bad flu part.

by garrettelliott on Jun 5, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is he playing against Candace Parker?

by Birdman84 on Jun 5, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jordan vs. Bird

Jordan was in this game (I played it on NES).

I don’t remember when he stopped games from using his image, but he did. Look at any of the games from the 90’s, and he’s not there. Somehow, I missed him in the NBA Street series.

by brgulker on Jun 10, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

well done, MFMP

Nice to see CV31 actually knocking down those 3’s in the clip, too.

I’m with Kevin on most of this – mainly that the T-Wolves and Pistons have a lot to talk about.

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by Packey on Jun 4, 2010 4:39 PM EDT reply actions  

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