Whither CP3?
by Mike Payne on Jul 22, 2010 12:28 AM EDT
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PrintWith Chris Paul reportedly demanding a trade from New Orleans, the question arises-- where might he go if NO meets his demands? Paul has apparently been unhappy with the direction of the Hornets franchise, their inability to properly build around him and the overall changing environment in the NBA.
According to the reports, Paul would prefer a trade to the Knicks, Lakers or Magic. But amongst those teams, what is his most likely destination?
Paul's 2010 salary comes to roughly $15,000,000. To make a trade work, the Knicks would likely only be able to include Eddy Curry as a primary trade chip. While Curry's expiring deal would provide relief for the Hornets, a Paul for Curry trade could become the most lopsided trade in modern NBA history. Orlando can offer either a mix of pieces or the Vince Carter contract, the latter of which should not whet the Hornets whistle. A trade involving Brandon Bass, Mickael Pietrus and Marcin Gortat would work financially, but Chris Paul is better than the sum of those parts. Ultimately, the Lakers are the only team that can offer an all star player in return for Chris Paul-- Andrew Bynum. While a trade for the two works straight up in terms of salary, you'd expect LA to toss in plenty of second rounders and/or cash.
With that, if the Chris Paul roomers are true, it's likely that the Lakers could provide the best one-to-one trade option, with the Magic having the best pieces-for-talent trade option. Should Paul somehow find himself in Orlando, Florida could become the ultimate ECF battleground for the first half of this young decade.
Should he wind up in LA... the sports media will devour themselves whole and pull out all kinds of ridiculous hyperbole. Me? I'll just go ahead and pen the Denver Nuggets in to be the Western Conference Champions in 2010-11.
What say you? Will Chris Paul part ways with NO? Where might he end up?
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Kind of a surprise, I thought he'd wait at least a year to come at NO like this.
Knicks/Magic seem like the two best bets.
Contrast that with this Derrick Rose quote “I’m never leaving.. Never”
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
Which team management read:
“Take advantage of me during my contract year”
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I loved the quote, if he is sincere.
In the age of the USA Basketball Miami-Annex, Hedo Turkoglu, and C3PO’s sleepless nights, a guy of Rose’s pedigree saying something like that has to really impress the fans, this is more valuable to ticket sales and fan loyalty than any promotion they could ever run.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
Innocent until proven guilty
Rose did his best to scare off James from signing with the Bulls, but I do not consider him anywhere near the manipulator Lebron is, nor does he appear to be the attentionwhore/fake messiah that the former #23 is.
I get your point though.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
"This is my fifth year in the league and I'm not trying to wait"
This article makes me lose a lot of respect for Chris Paul. Superstars these days speak as though they are entitled to win because they are highly ranked. Given how many hall of fame players don’t have rings I don’t understand after 5 years people act as if they are entitled to one, and they understand what it takes to get one.
Good Luck CP3, however if you wind up in a Salary Cap Log Jam surrounded by a bunch of knee problems like the Miami Heat will be next year, I hope you enjoy the bed you’ve made for yourself. Talented as he and other stars maybe, I’ll be happy if the pistons take a pass.
The thing is
That NO has been basically in a cost-cutting mode for the last few years. I don’t necessarily agree with how he is going about it, but I think he is completely justified in his frustration.
This isn’t like Cleveland trying again and again to field a competitor for Bron… this is NO management basically saying they’d rather be financially stable than build a champion. That’s just what happens in small markets during economically turbulent times
pass on CP3?
I would hope the Pistons land him somehow or someway as unlikely as it is, but we’re not contending either but at least we have a desire to win as a franchise. How could you pass on a top 3 PG in the league because he wants to be traded to a contender from a team in cost cutting mode? I’m sure he wouldn’t be saying this if they were competing every season, but he’s the only reason that team did anything worth mentioning and they clearly are not interested in winning.
Teal Era Flashback
I’m just hoping that pistons pass on building around a superstar. This Chris Paul situation especially, as great as he is, he could easily get to be free agency in 2 years and peace out to whatever city he wants. Next thing you know, we’re negotiating a sign and trade with orlando again.
That's not true!
Nobody overrates our players, most people around the league don’t even rates them highly!
Of course, if they were highly rated, we wouldn’t have gone after them in the first place.
seems the only way to win
is to have at least one superstar on the team or at least a 3 All-Stars. I loved the ‘04 team but that was a rare feat with all the pieces fitting nicely together and the right coach. I’d be very surprised if JoD can pull that off again. Assembling that team and winning with it hurt him when it comes to getting value for trades nowadays. He made a lot of GM’s look stupid and they all double guess themselves when dealing with JoD now.
Why Stick Around?
NO has shown they can’t put a competitive team around him. I mean, if you worked for a company that said “You know what, we’re not going to try to increase profits, we’re comfortable breaking even…oh, and by the way…we’re cutting your benefits as well” would you want to stick around?
I don’t like that athletes have as much power as they do in situations like this, but I can’t blame Paul for being frustrated either. They’ve done precisely nothing over the past few years, unless you count Okafor, to push their franchise into legitimate contention. Which is ridiculous, because CP3 is a legit superstar.
CP3 knows this, probably better than any of us do, and he probably suspects that ownership isn’t going to change that approach. Plus, he watched Collison play last season just like everyone else does, so he knows they’ve got a young buck primed for the starting gig. If NOLA wants to move Paul, and Paul wants a trade, now is the best time for that to happen, regardless of whether or not Paul’s power play is appropriate or not.
I don’t get this. Why shouldn’t he have the power to influence where he plays? Players have power because they’re valuable assets. I don’t see how you can curb, what is, essentially, a power that stems naturally from their ability to generate revenue.
To clarify
I don’t get why people don’t like that athletes have so much power.
I don't really like it.
and I guarantee shit like the Miami Summit/Signings will alienate people from the NBA.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
by Skylar on Jul 22, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
seconded
I don’t see why some guy that is about get $100 million + should be complaining about his contract and not being treated fairly. Athletes are way overpaid and are given way too much power – especially in the NBA.
This could be just me (and likely milions of other Americans), but I don’t see why an NBA player making the MLE should get more than the top specialized surgeons in the world. The majority of the doctors make less than $1 mill per year, and the very best don’t make more than $5 mil unless if they are the owner of some major clinic and have other doctors working for them. Why should I have to go through various forms of school and training for 10 years and rack up half a million in debts when some guys are out there complaining about not being treated like King(s)?
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 22, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I haven't read/heard Paul's statement.
If he complained about not being treated fairly – I have no sympathy for him in that regard.
Secondly, I won’t argue with you that athletes are overpaid based on their contribution to society. But, to beat a dead horse, so are a lot of bankers. However, the market sets these salaries. I just think this is a separate issue. Do you think the owner of the team deserves to be a Billionaire. It’s really not the issue.
Finally, my point was to ask why superstar athletes shouldn’t leverage their value in order to force a trade. Good companies try to keep their employees happy, to prevent other companies from poaching their talent. Why should management have all the power when it comes to trades and the players have none?
I keep flip-flopping on my own head about this
While I agree that many companies value their employees and understand the cost-benefit analysis of implementing valuable benefits to retain top employees, I can also understand that some of the most powerful and succcessful business models that have been built in the past 30 years have been built off of taking advantage of your employee base from the top of the company (Wal-mart for example) down.
So from an owner’s perspective, of course he wants to make as much money as he can. Very few owners are in this business simply because they love the game and even those that are don’t like losing millions a year just to watch some self-entitled prima donna fuck his team over because he couldn’t get it done in his current city (more my issue with Lebron than CP).
I really have no problem with CP demanding a trade…he’s been amazing to the New Orleans community and to the organization as a whole and in return, the organization has consistently failed to make meaningful moves to make the team a contender. If anything, I think CP is helping NO out by asking for a trade now. More teams will be open to making a trade when CP still has a couple years left on his contract vs. an expiring deal (which would narrow it down to CP’s favorite teams).
CP3 and Amar’e in NY though with D’Antoni as a coach is fucking scary…even scarier if a guy like Carmelo landed in NY the following season…
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Finally, my point was to ask why superstar athletes shouldn’t leverage their value in order to force a trade. Good companies try to keep their employees happy, to prevent other companies from poaching their talent. Why should management have all the power when it comes to trades and the players have none?
That’s a good point when stated in those terms. I’m too quick to take the moral highground and argue about how highly they’re paid relative to others in society (I’m in nonprofit / social profit work and make peanuts, relatively, so it’s a bit of a soapbox issues I suppose).
I hear you
I’ll likely end up working for the Gov’t or a nonprofit so I won’t be making millions either. I’m actually fine with being morally opposed to the way society “wastes” money on entertainment like sports. I just have a problem when we put the blame on the employees (the players) rather than the billionaire owners. Not saying you did that, just sayin’.
That's the worst thing about the BFF trio
Lebron just fucked NBA ratings for a few years. All the best talent on one team, not playing anybody that can compete, is bad for business. I don’t see why David Stern let it happen from that angle.
by Biz Markie Moon on Jul 22, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
C'mon, son!
There are still two other teams in the ECF alone capable of winning 60 games if all goes well. There’s at least one 60 win capable out West, as well as multiple 50-win teams out West.
All this doomsday BS is just that. Miami will be really good but also really thin. One injury, and the playing field is beyond leveled. Couple that with all the other legit powerhouses, and you’ve got yourself a very competitive NBA.
I think the Bulls might be my go-to team on Pistons off nights.
by garrettelliott on Jul 22, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
when I lived in Chicago, pre-league pass, I was forced to. it wasn’t as shameful as I thought it would be. they’ll be an exciting team to watch this year…
witty signature
Same with Portland
I brought my love for those cats back to Michigan with me & they’ll always be my 2nd team. Married to Detroit, cheat w/PDX
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
the super friends will not fuck the NBA's ratings
people will tune in to see these guys humiliate lesser teams and throw down tomahawk jams 40 times a game. i won’t, but lots of people that wouldnt normally watch the NBA might.
they should just go to see the Globetrotters.
I will!!!
And then I’ll fire up my Xbox and dominate the online gaming community in NBA JAM!! Bosh, Wade, and LBJ on the same team in a video game? Game over n00bs!!!
Oh God
They’re supposed to come out with a new NBA Jam aren’t they? That team will be Bo Jackson on Tecmo Bowl unstoppable.
Quick trivia: The creator of NBA Jam is a Pistons fan and he set up a code that made the Bulls miss last second shots against the Pistons.
by Biz Markie Moon on Jul 23, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
voting for the NBA Jam has already finished and was based on last year's rosters I believe
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Nah...if they're smart
they’ll make it a paid add-on.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Or just update it in the next iteration of NBA Jam
and knowing EA they’ll probably have it out a few months after the first version releases…
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Hey but don't you feel better about it
knowing that Gates is going to give away the vast majority of his wealth to charity and in doing so is potentially causing a phenomenon of uber-wealthy individuals following suit (Warren Buffett, Paul Allen)?
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
What do you mean?
Gates and Buffett already announced their plans to donate the vast majority of their net worth to charity upon their death and that their kids will get minimal amounts of cash in comparison. Paul Allen just announced the same in the past couple weeks.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
It’s better than them just leaving it all to their inheritors, but if they spent that same huge chunk of their net worth, while they are still alive, on pushing to create a system that doesn’t create insane, unsustainable inequality… That would be cooler.
Odd...
I haven’t had any problems with Windows 7, and if you’re comparing this to Apple’s OS then I’m going to stop listening right now. My girlfriend loves her apple desktop and laptop but she has plenty of problems with it and thats with Apple getting to control both what goes into the software AND what goes into the hardware.
And if the problems with MS OS and software products were really that apparent and wide-spread, then would the company still exist today? No. Another company would have done it better and in doing so forced them out of business…and yet MS has more computers running their operating system than any other OS in the world…
But maybe you’re addressing something else when you talk about insane, unsustainable, inequality…that is kind of ambiguous so maybe I’m addressing something you were actually not commenting on.
[/company line toe’d]
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I don’t think he’s knocking Windows. I agree with all of your points, btw, and really can’t stand hearing mac cultists gloat and proselytize. It’s just a computer. Mine’s pretty awesome too, AND it can play video games.
witty signature
I have Ubuntu
on my craptastic dell. I love it. I had to install a windows virtual machine in order to watch netflix streaming, though. Bastards. I was pretty wary of using linux, but the latest versions of Ubuntu are very user friendly. Plus, the risk of viruses and adaware is way lower. I definitely rec it.
I’m actually considering buying a new desktop from Dell (as opposed to building one) with Ubuntu pre-installed, mostly to avoid the hassle of ensuring everything is compatible.
I can help you out with the component selection
You probably already assumed this, but I happen to be very handy with computers (built my first one back in the day when I was 14, quite easy)
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 28, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
@Mike did you build it yourself?
newegg = best e-vendor ever
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 28, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
So you're tuning into the Cavs and the Raptors?
Or how about the Paul-less Hornets vs. the Melo-less Nuggets?
Where irrelevance happens
I'll talk about the CP3 situation specifically
1) He just signed a contract extension that will pay him millions upon millions. He wasn’t forced to do that. If where he was playing was the priority, then why sign that deal? Answer: money.
2) Stunts like this put your team in handcuffs. Paul’s a great player, so teams will still offer plenty to get him, but when you publicly demand a trade, you lower the amount your team can get in return. It’s bad taste, IMO.
3) Anyone who plays in the NBA, whether they get drafted by a team or sign as a FA with a team, knows precisely what they’re getting into. Let’s be real. CP3 will make more money this summer than most people will make in their lifetimes. Bitching like this in the media is just plain irritating. Not the most logical of objections, I realize.
Management knew what they were getting to as well. They should have known that if they didn’t put a quality team around their star that he would become disgruntled and ask for a trade. If Paul was old and holding the team back (aka an albatross) do you think management would think twice about trading him because of loyalty? I doubt it. This is a business.
As for listening to millionaires complain – I get that aspect. Fuck ‘em. However, I think what happens in this situation is that fans’ love of and loyalty to teams ends up with them taking the side of a billionaire in a dispute with a millionaire.
IME, the problem here is the word “star.” Paul’s case, and the previous one with Lebron is unusual because they actually are truly two of the very best players in the league. Most players who are thought of as (or consider themselves) “stars” are not as good.
IME this creates a crappy precedent for a couple reasons:
1) Giving “star” players the power to change teams at their own discretion creates a side-effect of them having de-facto control over their teams personnel, because they can always threaten to leave if they don’t like the GM’s acquisitions. This is obviously a bad idea, because many “star” players have shown themselves to be awful judges of talent (a recent example being Kobe complaining about the Lakers unwillingness to trade Bynum).
2) All “stars” are not created equal. While Paul is productive enough to lead a moderately talented supporting cast to the playoffs (and thus gives Paul in some respects the right to expect a decent supporting cast be kept around him), Rudy Gay is not. But if Rudy Gay’s max contract is any indication, he is now officially considered a “star,” and while this is obviously a management mistake, it doesn’t change the fact that it is Gay’s own contract that will hinder the Griz from competing… but as a “star” he will be within his rights to complain about the lack of help. Kafkaesque.
3) Connected to those two problems is a third— the possible creation of crap “Big 3’s.” Does Tony Parker, Carmelo and Amar’e get you hot? Lesser “stars” banding together, soaking up most of a single teams resources, seems like a fast way to deplete several currently solid teams, without the benefit of creating an actual contender. Boo-urns.
Great post
Does Tony Parker, Carmelo and Amar’e get you hot?
That almost had me spitting lukewarm coffee all over my computer screen.
I don’t actually disagree with anything you said. I think you’re looking at the realistic consequences of this type of thing and I’m focusing on the process and the idea that’s wrong (in a moral sense) for a player to demand a trade.
Taking the Rudy Gay example. Imagine that Mr. Gay ends up regretting his decision and demands a trade. Kinda douchey, but the reality is that management doesn’t have to trade him. After evaluating their options, they might think that they could improve their long term outlook by trading him. If not, they could continue paying him, but bench him for the rest of the season (maybe Mr. Gay would be willing to renegotiate his contract a la Turkoglu to facilitate a trade). There are lots of options, but my basic point is that both parties – mangement and the player – have power. However, in my opinion, management has much more power and is free to exercise it as they wish. I don’t see why we should moralize about the exercise of power by players, but be fine with the way the Rockets refuse to offer the RFA’s contracts in order to avoid paying above market value (sometimes they probably pay less). If we’re getting all Lovey Dovey, then teams should be loyal. But, really, it’s just a business.
I will add one caveat. This sort of free market philosophy requires all actors to be rational and non-dumbasses. Clearly, Gay’s signing indicates a high likelihood for market failure. Some of these managers are morons. As managers of a profit-maximizing firm, they should know that wins drive revenue. Therefore, they should maximize wins and minimize costs. That strategy is not consitent with signing Gay to a max deal. So, while I agree with you about the potential for negative consequences a la crappy ‘Big Threes,’ I would point out that those arrangements are as much, if not more, the fault of stupid managers as they are the fault of fickle players. Since the managers are managers and the players are athletes, I think it makes more sense to blame the managers.
Hmmm this just gave me the idea that maybe the solution is for a two-way buy-out option on all contracts, or maybe only contracts that are for the MLE and above, kinda using the European league model— specifically the contracts that allow euro league players contract buy-outs to then come play in the NBA.
So teams would be able to buy out a player by paying a certain % (maybe 25-50%) of the contract and then are freed from the salary cap or luxury tax burden, and at the same time, players will have a buy-out option of their own where they can pay a % of their salary (something less, maybe 10%, not sure if it should just be annual salary), and then be allowed out of the contract. Would this work?
I think offering players a buyout option is potentially very risky
What’s to stop them from signing a front-loaded contract, playing the first 2 years, then buying out and signing another big contract afterwards?
You’d also run the risk of a team performing abysmally and having the superstars on said team abandoning it mid-way through the season or just in general.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
The only way it would work is if the buy-outs are limited to being done in the off-season. And there’s a limit to how front-loaded contracts can be, although, I don’t really have a problem with short term deals for a lot of money if the player is worth it. In fact, I think that might be preferable to the current contract process, where players like Rudy Gay get paid a lot of money over a lot of years.
Interesting idea
But I think it kind of demonstrates that ass you add these restrictions there are all sorts of weird incentives that end up requiring further rules.
Ugh yeah, it seems like there has to be a way to make both sides hesitant to sign contracts that one or both will eventually be completely unhappy with.
Maybe a hard cap, with no minimum or maximum individual salary for any player, and no trades allowed. So teams and players would have to be absolutely sure they want to come together.
The main problem I see with that is that a Hard Cap is an owner’s wet dream and without any minimum salaries, there would be cutthroat competition among the players. This is a big gift to the owners. The elite players would probably benefit as well, but all the other players would be losers.
Also, trade proposals are half the fun of being a fan. I can’t support any system that outlaws trades :)
well you'd think that the negotiation process itself
would be the way to ensure that both sides are agreeing to terms that they’re comfortable with…in fact signing the contract itself implies a certain level of comfort. The problem is, unlike a commodity or a product, the owner can’t control the development or success of said product. That is ultimately up to the player to return on the investment that the owner has made so understandably every contract will cause some level of discomfort if only for the fact that owners will consider the worst case scenario (Eddy Curry)
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
It's like placing on turd on each of your teammates foreheads
The thing is the Hornets have NO rush to trade CP3 before next season.
I would laugh at some agent telling me that his player demands a trade. He doesn’t come off the books for two years, so they have all the time in the world to pick a trade they want and not take a pair of knee problems of Orlando cause thats where he wants to go. How he has the balls to think he can pick where he is going is truly beyond me, he doesn’t have a no trade clause!
So if the trade doesn’t go, how do you go back in the lockerroom in october and say anything at all to your teammates???
I would laugh at some agent telling me that his player demands a trade.
“Okay Chris, I understand your demand for a trade. Tell you what, we’re going to take our sweet time, you’re going to ride the pine and watch Darren Collison match your performance on court. Suck it.”
witty signature
I like this
that and when the trade does occur let it be to a sub .500 team.
By the way, I don’t have a problem with player’s salary or them having some negotiating power.
Where in the world is Trent Plaisted?
Agreed with point 2 which contradicts something I just said
Paul coming out and saying he wants to be traded is different from quietly telling his team that he’s unhappy and allowing them to find the best possible trade.
And whatever New Orleans gets in return, it will definitely include numerous 1st rounders.
I think Orlando is the favorite in this case…they could offer Jameer + Gortat + future picks for CP…or they could throw in Pietrus and acquire Posey in exchange which would offer NO even more financial flexibility (Nelson, Gortat, and Pietrus all being reasonable contracts) plus the draft picks to build around whatever mid-level franchise cornerstone they choose.
If they took Gortat, I think it makes it even more likely that they’d want to move Okafor…
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Guys, the article did say
that he privately asked management for a trade and has not gone public with it. Whoever leaked it, whether it was his agent or team personnel, it doesn’t matter. People are dumping on him, but he officially didn’t make anything public aside from answering media question about wanting to be on a contender, but that was during the season.
oh interesting...
yeah i just ran with the vibe on dbb, hadn’t had a chance to read the article itself. If that’s the case then I’ll back CP3 even more in this scenario.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
going back to lebron
several times it was mentioned that CP3 was helping lebron and giving advice on what to do(i.e. twitter account) and i believe CP is just caught up in this summer hype of free agency.
I've read the other way around.
In Paul’s earliest days with Team USA, officials preferred Deron Williams to him because they believed Williams was far more his own man. No one liked the way Paul was so eager to follow James, Carmelo Anthony and Dwyane Wade. These changes haven’t come overnight with Paul, but over time. James, Carter and Wesley embarked on a long, orchestrated campaign to work Paul over, unfasten him from past loyalties and trusts, and transform him into a creation of their own. Yahoo! Sports
Don’t know if I believe the hype, but it sure does go a long way explaining the heel swerve that C3P0 is pulling.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
If I'm New Orleans
If I trade to a contender, I’m probably trading him to Orlando, centered around Jameer, Pietrus and Gortat, and that deal would also likely include future picks. If Matt Barnes returns, Orlando will be so deep at the wings that it won’t matter if they lose Pietrus (whom I’m a big fan of) and Daniel Orton should be able to fill Gortat’s shoes as a 15 min/game backup center. Thus the only big hit they are taking would be losing Jameer, and they would be getting a major upgrade in return anyways.
I don’t see what NY has to offer beyond salary relief and the Lakers can’t do the trade without giving up on some of their core players (most likely centered around Andrew Bynum) as they have no real depth at the moment.
However there’s also the other side of the table to consider. If they know Paul isn’t returning, then why bother catering to his wishes? They already have his replacement in Collison, I would trade him to whatever .500 team offers me the best offer out of spite. I’m not sure how enticing it would be, but a package of Gordon, Stuckey, Daye, JJ and picks would fill a few needs (but at the same time, if they want 2+ future firsts, it would jeopardize our own future too much to make it worth it).
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 22, 2010 9:48 AM EDT reply actions
Barnes is going to get a big payday in Canada from the sounds of it.
by Apocalyptic0n3 on Jul 22, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
However there’s also the other side of the table to consider. If they know Paul isn’t returning, then why bother catering to his wishes? They already have his replacement in Collison, I would trade him to whatever .500 team offers me the best offer out of spite.
If I’m NO I’m thinking just that, trade him to the clippers, or the wolves, they could get quite a pay day for Paul, why take back curry’s expiring and a pick?
This trade works.
Stuckey/Daye/Prince/Summers/Maxiell for Paul/Okafor
It saves NO about $5m immediately and a lot more money down the road, and gives them some more young players to build around.
Pistons can run a line-up of Paul/Gordon/JJ/Monroe and a platoon of Okafor and Big Ben at centre, with Rip/CV off the bench.
NO wouldn’t have a true C on the roster other than Songaila, but if they’re going into full rebuild mode, they might not mind that. Or, they could use Peja and Tay’s expiring contracts in a trade to get some frontcourt help. The rest of their team would be really deep: Collison/Thornton/Stuckey/Daye/Pondexter/Posey/West/Max, add a defensive minded center to that nucleus and they’d have a really solid team.
if we were to pull that off
i’d rather start Rip and move for a Gordon trade. That tiny backcourt would have all kinds of defensive issues. A year of Rip and Paul whilst looking for an upgrade via a Gordon trade would be sexy.
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I get the sense the Pistons won’t be moving Gordon, unless a trade is proposed that’s highway robbery for the Pistons. From this week’s mailbag:
Langlois: I don’t think the Kings are eager to trade Dalembert, but for Gordon? Yeah, I think they’d jump all over that one. No, I don’t see the Pistons being remotely interested in that deal. They’re looking for a big season from Gordon.
Hard to know if it’s fair to read too much into Keith’s words, given it’s a proposal for Dalabert, but the last two sentences seem to indicate Jod loves him some Ben Gordon.
I'd rather have Rip than Gordon
I agree that we would have a terribly small back court with CP3 + BG, not to mention Gordon probably holds much more trade value due to his age. Besides, I bet that Rip would go back to his 05-06 levels playing alongside Paul, and that would be more than enough to get us back into playoff talks and one of the top 5 guard rotations if we could retain Stuckey as a 6th man.
And before you get started, I know you were sarcastic, but I just feel that people are short selling Rip around here. I don’t see any reason why he shouldn’t thrive alongside a great distributor as long as he doesn’t step on anyone else’ foot again.
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 22, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Old players decline, Rip is old
Every GM in the league knows this. Rip’s a third or fourth banana at best at this point in his career, IMO. I know we disagree on this one, but I think I’m right :)
that is true - but I'll take a proven winner over an undersized, less productive player any day
you and I both know that Gordon has a career negative net production (in terms of o-rating minus d-rating) where as Rip has always maintained a positive differential as a piston except for the last 2 years.
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 22, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think you need to convince Mr. Gulker that Gordon is overrated/paid. But Rip’s overall production fell off a cliff in the last two seasons. He’s been dealt a crappy hand with injuries (and his buddy being traded), and that’s obviously a bummer, but it’s an unavoidable fact that players Rip’s age tend to decline, not hold steady.
To be honest, I’m fully aware that we’ll have either Rip or BG on our roster for at least the next 3 years, and unless something crazy happens, it will be BG, and worst-case scenario, it’s both. At this point, I honestly don’t care which of the two we have long-term, as long as it’s not both. Both players will hurt more than help, and I’m a huge Rip fan saying that for the record.
Right and Gordon would be easier to trade
Not to mention we’d get more value because of his age and “star” nomenclature
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 22, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
you mean a proven winner with only 2 years left on his contract with the final year being unguaranteed...
over an undersized, less productive player with 4 years remaining.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I'd rather have neither.
Where in the world is Trent Plaisted?
by Kriz on Jul 22, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Kelly Dwyer criticizes Paul for signing the 2008 deal and now asking for a trade
Interesting read. Basically, Paul should have known what he was getting into with his new deal.
I disagree with that
For one, at the time NO was still on the rise (having won 56 games in 07-08) and was predicted to be a major contender if they continued to progress. Unfortunately for him, Chandler and Peja were dealing with injury after injury and were rapidly declining just after he signed that deal – and I don’t think it’s fair to expect him to foresee that.
For another, it looks worse on a player to leave while still extending their rookie contract than it does to do what LeBron and Bosh did, and go after they’ve reached max deal territory. Just think of Allan Houston, many Detroiters still resent him for leaving so early in his career after not contributing much to the organization. Had LeBron and Bosh not made such a big deal out of free agency, I don’t think nearly as many people would be pissed at them, and probably more along the lines of “well…they tried their best and got no where.” If said star leaves after only 2 or 3 years, the perception is that they didn’t even bother trying and just wanted an easy way out.
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 22, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, Peja was bound to decline given his age. He was overpaid even if he didn’t. Chandler also had a history of injuries.
Despite their current troubles...
2011 could easily see the Hornets back in the playoffs, maybe in the heat for a championship.
They had a couple of good rookies (collison, thorton) last year and just got a couple new good ones and moved Mo-P’s contract in the process. Next off season they will lose the stojakovic contract and have a bundle of money to spend on free agents, plus another lottery potentially. We don’t even know if this GM is an idiot or not either.
It seems premature and selfish for Paul to make these demands now.
Not comparable. Paul loses some of my respect, but he isn't from Baton Rouge
nor is he having a one hour telethon extravaganza devoted to how fresh he is.
Not comparable. Plenty of pro-athletes demand trades every season.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
I feel like New York could put together a decent package for him
Give them Curry’s expiring, Danilo Gallinari (they really, really need a SF), Azabuike, and Toney Douglas and maybe some future picks (if they have any left) for Paul, and Posey. NOLA really needs a SF, and Gallinari is going to be very, very good. Plus, they get a good back up PG for Collison, another SG to put by Thornton, and some serious cap flexibility. They still get robbed, but to a much lesser extent.
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
Any deal with bukake in it will be messy...and won't happen for approx 60 days
since he was just dealt earlier.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on Jul 22, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Maybe substitute Wilson Chandler then
Who is an inferior player with misleading offensive statistics, so NOLA could bite. Also, LAWL.
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Jul 22, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
If i'm NY i wouldn't do it
First, if it happens before December Felton can’t be included, and I don’t even know if NO would want him. So how would Felton and Paul work together?
Second, I think they’re giving up too much. Felton, Gallinari, Azabuike, Douglas as a sum are much better than Paul. They’d be in a similar position as the Heat this summer w/out the glut of role playing FAs to sign. It would just leave them too thin.
by Roll The Dyess on Jul 22, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
that's the problem of trading for a superstar
in order to make an offer that won’t be laughed away, you’d probably end up having to give up every worthwhile player you have. This is one reason why I think the NBA needs to adopt a baseball-esque minor league system. With a farm system to train prospects, not only does the draft become a more effective tool but also you can make trades without screwing up your entire core lineup
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 22, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
So are you saying the league should decrease the max roster size to 12?
by Roll The Dyess on Jul 22, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
what?
where did you get that from?
No if anything I’m saying the league should expand roster sizes to allow for a better developmental league
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 22, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you're underrating how good Paul is
20-10 PGs are very, very rare. They practically never happen, and it’s even rarer that they can shoot as efficiently as CP3 and player comparable defense. When he’s healthy, Paul is a top 3 player. If you pair that with Amar’e, Azabuike, Anthony Randolph, Bill Walker, and Felton, that’s a pretty damn good team. They’d have to fill out some more for depth, but that’s a core you can build on.
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Jul 22, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah if CP3 is playing with Amare and Melo
i would expect cp’s stats to remain about the same but Amare and Melo’s to sky rocket due to all the sweet feeds that CP3 would be lobbing to them.
I don't think Melo's would change too much
He’s always created his own shot, in fact his scoring decreased initially with the arrival of Chauncey because he stopped being such a ball hog. Amare on the other hand does need a good distributor in the low post, but is fine in the high post
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 23, 2010 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Why didn’t players join forces years ago? It seems like it’s this new hot topic because players used to rot away on losing franchises for years until now. Why waste your prime years for a team who definitely won’t win a championship? Only one team can win, and if your team isn’t climbing that mountain and getting better every year, maybe it’s time to go elsewhere with better players. Maybe that’s a cop out, but I’d rather win a championship and enjoy my career than look back with frustration and anger at what could have been.
one explanation--
having so much heat from one draft class is extremely rare, thus it’s pretty rare for so many hot free agents at once.
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just a random thought
but what if the thunder landed cp3? at trade like this plus a pick or two would work. It’d give NO a young pg, sg, and sf, all whom are expiring. Now, you’re looking at a lineup for the thunder that would be scary with cp3/harden/durant/ibaka/kristic. they still would need some more beef up front, but i love the idea of cp3 running w/an all nba guy on his wing (also putting 2 of my favorite guys on the same squad).
Chris Paul trade
Hamilton and Prince for Paul and Stojakovic works on the ESPN trade machine. Don’t know if NO would do that, but it does get rid of Peja’s contract and gives them some decent wings to work with Collision. We could give them Stuckey, too and it still works.
Yes. 2010 Thornton is better than 2010 Rip. You don’t bring in Rip Hamilton to start over a sophomore who put up an efficient, dynamic rookie season with a ton of room to grow.
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I think you should clarify on that
2010 Thornton is better to build around than 2010 Rip. I would be willing to bet that in the same situation, a healthy Rip would put up better numbers. However he’s on the decline and has a contract 10x that of Thornton’s, which is why I agree that he is by far a better piece for a team on the rise. However for a team in contention that needs an efficient wing, then I would say Rip would be the better piece. They would contend and by the time Rip’s contract runs out, they should have found a new option in the draft (good SG are a dime a dozen)
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 24, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
True
But Prince is a big upgrade over Peja and the deal also gets them under the luxury tax. Not sure what other pieces we could offer them – Gordon? Maxiell? I don’t see NO trading Okafor without getting a big back, which means Orlando or LA might have more to offer them. But I think taking Bynum is risky. Gortat is wothwhile, but I’m not sure Orlando really has much else to offer NO.
if their goal is to get under the luxury...
then we’d offer them numerous 1st and 2nd round picks.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
They want young assets and cap relief
not an aging SG on a bloated contract. It would have to be more like Tayshaun+Stuckey+Monroe+Daye+Jerebko+Wilcox for Paul+Okafor.
by Boom Roasted on Jul 23, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I would probably still do that deal.
Try to trade any combination of Gordon/Hamilton/Villanueva/Maxiell for a starting SF (maybe Gerald Wallace or Andre Iguodala), and hope for a quality PF to be on the market around the deadline or next summer (once Utah’s roster is healthy, I’m almost certain they will start shopping one of their bigs—Okur, Millsap, Jefferson—for a quality SG).
by Boom Roasted on Jul 23, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I would not give up 6 players for 2
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on Jul 23, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Apparently Orlando is higher on Paul's list than NY
NO can dump Posey in sending Paul to Orlando in exchange for Nelson, Gortat and Pietrus. Paul is worth a lot more than those pieces, so at least it would take a good number of picks and possibly a third team to make a deal. But a one-to-one trade would work financially with those pieces, perhaps not logically. Furthermore, if NO would feel confident after the start of the season that Gortat can be fully relied upon to start, I’d hope they’d move Okafor for expiring talent like our own Tayshaun Prince. While I know that’s not a new concept, it might put New Orleans in the best possible opportunity to rebuild around Collison, Thornton and West. They’d have a combined ~ $36 million in expiring contracts and the rest of their salaries are pretty evenly matched. Collison/Thornton/Prince/West/Gortat may not sound sexy to a fan not familiar with these players, but this is an excellent start for a team just beginning a rebuild process. With the added depth of Nelson and Pietrus, that team has the talent, defense, veteran leadership and efficient offense to eclipse the 37 win season NO recorded last year, at least from where I sit.
NO could absolutely find better talent for Paul, but this gets Paul where he wants to be and gets NO a greater toolset than a superstar for all-star trade on another team.
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Langlois weighed in...
Saying it would probably take Monroe, Stuckey, Prince, Wilcox and possibly Austin Daye to get Chris Paul and Emeka Okafor (who he feels NO would want to get rid off in the deal).
Langlois poopoo’d it because there’s no guarantee Paul would stay at the end of his contract.
But: Paul, Bynum at PG. Rip, Gordon and White at SG. Jerebko and Summers at SF. CV and Maxiell at PF. And Okafor/Wallace at C. That seems like a pretty good team.
+1
I had the exact same thought.
Paul / Rip / JJ / CV / Okafor, with Bynum / Gordon / Max / Big Ben off the bench is a very good core.
Possible rhetorical question, but does Langlois realize how much more productive Chris Paul is by himself than Stuckey, Tay, Daye and Wilcox (and in all likelihood Monroe)?
Paul with a supporting cast of Peja, David West, one good season from Tyson Chandler, and a bunch of scrubs— that was a 50 win team in the Western Conference… The little guy is a beast.
he would be a magically productive piston
for 2 years and then he bolts to go play patty cake with amare or melo once his contract is up.
lol that would be a risk. But, NBA players, even the really good ones, can be crappy evaluators of talent, and I’m probably wrong, but I don’t think Paul would bolt from a competing team in 2012. So if he was traded to the Pistons, even if he was initially bummed about not having sleep-overs with Amar’e, if the Pistons started winning I don’t think he’d leave.
you could be right
but two years is an awfully small time table to turn this team around from a lotto team to a contending team. unless we go to the finals i would think he would bolt to do another super friends team up.
i dont think so
you are going to have the same thing as lebron where guys wont come to detroit because if cp3 leaves then there is nothing. they will just wait it out to see where the chips fall and go there. then cp3 will look fine as he leaves detroit since they couldnt assemble any sort of core around him. Detroit isnt on his list of teams to play for so it seems likely that he would just leave.
you really think joe d could assemble a team that will compete for a championship with the time frame of this upcoming season and the next season? even if joe manages to put an alright team around paul it seems almost certain that he would bolt out of detroit for the “sure thing” of playing with a big three kinda team.
also if we were to get paul but give up jj, tayshaun, monroe, stuckey and possibly daye
who would paul be passing to? people have always said that stuckey’s assists are lower than they could be because he has no one to pass to. who would chris paul be throwing passes to after this trade? okafor and rip? terrico white? not worth gutting your roster for a 2 yr run at cp3.
i agree with what abbot says here on truehoop:
I would not trade anything good at all for Chris Paul if I thought my team was not going to contend with him, which certainly seems to be the key to getting him to re-sign in two years.
What makes it a greater risk...
Is that the team hard to improve because it would be right at the luxury tax threshold.
Rip would still have to be moved to improve the team.
by Quick Darshan on Jul 24, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I want him to go to the Lakers
Mainly b/c I don’t want Queen James winning titles. Plus, it would make for some really entertaining finals to come for the next 4 years.
The beginning of the end of the misery
How much of the Lakers' success is due to Coach Jackson?
He’s ghost after this year, I don’t know if a C3PO/Bryant Lakers squad is enough to keep him coaching.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
BREAKING!
Langlois asks non-rhetorical question as a rhetorical question!
Let’s pretend we’re Dell Demps, newly installed GM of New Orleans. And let’s say Demps got marching orders from ownership to cave to Paul’s demands and trade him. (Unless ownership took a stupid pill, I don’t see this happening. Paul has two years remaining before he can opt out. He has no leverage. So New Orleans has no real urgency to trade him – unless Paul takes this to the ultimate step and holds out, which would cost him major dollars in the season before a lockout is possible. Read: not happening.) And let’s say Demps called Joe Dumars, just for fun. I imagine he would start by asking for Rodney Stuckey, Greg Monroe (New Orleans native, a double plus for the Hornets), the expiring contracts of Tayshaun Prince and Chris Wilcox, plus a future No. 1 pick or perhaps Austin Daye or Jonas Jerebko, and insist the Pistons take Emeka Okafor’s contract back, as well. Do you still like this deal?
….
….
ummm. YES! FUCK YES!
Let me see, we give up—> an average combo guard, a rookie, Tayshaun Prince, CHRIS WILCOX, and either a 1st round pick or Austin Daye… and we get possibly the best PG in the entire league, and an okay center… So we address the two gaping holes on the roster, trade from our surplus of guards, SF’s and PF’s, and come out with Chris MFing Paul. Dear Keith, WTF?
Does this surprise you?
I think Keith overvalues our own guys more than Dumars does most of the time. I realize he’s just doing his job, but this one’s a no-brainer.
I think everyone does it to a certain extent
with the team they’re closest to, but Langlois is shooting double rainbows out of his ass with this one.
by Rob Rogacki on Jul 27, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I just don't see why New Orleans moves Paul.
He’s theirs for two more years. They’re not getting anything remotely equal back in terms of star power. New Orleans has some other pieces there to make smaller moves that could dramatically change that team.
Peja’s expiring $15 mil. deal could be huge at the trade deadline. Along with Darius Songalia’s expiring $4 mil. James Posey’s contract (2 yrs/~$14 mil.) could be useful to a team looking to upgrade a playoff roster. Then you’ve got young talent in Collison and Thornton that could be big assets.
Looking at that, I feel much worse about our situation.
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