Dumars ranked 24th GM out of 30 by SBNation
by brgulker on Jul 22, 2010 3:14 PM EDT
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Print[Ed. note - Didn't see this before putting up a FanShot. Deleted mine and front paged this. Thanks, brgulker - Packey]
Full story here.
Joe Dumars, PistonsHired: 2000
Coaches: George Irvine (2000-2001), Rick Carlisle (2001-2003), Larry Brown (2003-2005), Flip Saunders (2005-2008), Michael Curry (2008-2009), John Kuester (2009-present)
Long-term plan: Rebuild while staying competitive. In other words, an oxymoron, unless you have a superstar, which he doesn't.
Key Draft picks: Darko Milicic (2nd, 2003), Greg Monroe (7th, 2010), Rodney White (9th, 2001), Rodney Stuckey (15th, 2007), Tayshaun Prince (23rd, 2002), Jonas Jerebko (39th, 2009)
Key trades
- 2002: Traded Jerry Stackhouse and Brian Cardinal to the Wizards for Rip Hamilton, Hubert Davis and Bobby Simmons.
- 2004 season: Traded Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter, Bob Sura and a first-round pick to the Hawks and Celtics for Mike James and Rasheed Wallace
- 2008 season: Traded Chauncey Billups and Antonio McDyess to the Nuggets for Allen Iverson's expiring contract
Key free agent signings: Re-signing Billups (2007), Wallace (2005) and Prince (2007). Rip Hamilton in 2008 (three years, $38 million beginning in 2009/10), Ben Gordon in (five years,$55 million), Charlie Villanueva in 2009 (five years, $35 million).
Key free agents let go: Grant Hill (2000), Ben Wallace (2006).
It pains me to put Joe Dumars, the architect of the Pistons teams of the 2000s, this low. However, Dumars has been a disaster since the Chauncey Billups/Allen Iverson trade. Dumars made the deal to regain salary-cap flexibility to rebuild a team that has run it's course, but ended up spending that money on Ben Gordon, Charlie Villanueva and a re-signed, declining Rip Hamilton. He's refused to deal any of his other big-contract players like Tayshaun Prince because he legitimately thinks his team can and should be "competitive" when rebuilding.
That's the problem, though -- you can be "competitive" without major salary obligations to declining players. Dumars, like many of the GMs behind him on this list, fundamentally misunderstands this. I'm not sure why Dumars refuses to take the long-term approach. Sure, their arena is empty, but it seems they have a core of dieharts that are willing to wait around for a long-term rebuilding project. It's not like Dumars is in a city like Charlotte, where the team desperately needs the revenue from home playoff games.
Therefore, the only explanation for Dumars' recent issues is that he must believe that, because he built a "star-less" core earlier, he can do it again. Newsflash Joe: you probably can't. Lightning doesn't strike in the same spot twice.
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Curious how others may respond to the list in general.
The Bulls are rated too low, IMO. They’re a fringe contender in large part due to moves made over the past 2 seasons. Not sure how that makes you middle of the pack. I’m sort of puzzled by the Magic’s rating as well. Again, we’re talking about a legit contender being rated in the middle of the pack. Same for the Lakers. What gives?
And Rod Thorn at #12? That’s just mind-blowing. Danny Ainge is confusing as well, since his success seems much more luck than skill.
Luck of the Irish?
Fuck that little leprechaun danny ainge. A double rainbow??? .
by C$ on Jul 22, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
after adding garnett
It’s starting to look like a triple rainbow! OMG!!
by C$ on Jul 22, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I could write for days on how wrong this ranking is, but I'll K.I.S.S.
I’m not sure why Dumars refuses to take the long-term approach [with rebuilding].
Because then you wind up like teams who have GMs inexplicably ranked better than Dumars.
Detroit Bad Boys- SB Nation's Detroit Pistons Blog
Twitter
Haven't seen the list but in regards to Dumars
and this is coming from a Dumars fan, still, who wants to give the guy a chance to clean this up but, I think Dumars biggest problem is the perception of a lack of direction. If someone asked me “What do you think Joe is trying to do?” I suspect my answer would be the same as most Pistons fan “I have no fucking idea”.
We are rebuilding yet holding on to Rip and Tay.
We want to stay competitive even though its clear we don’t have the means to do so.
We want offensive prowess from a roster that does not fit the outdated system we are still trying to implement.
We want defensive efficiency without the personnel to do so.
We want to grow without giving the young players the time to do so.
We are just lost.
Where in the world is Trent Plaisted?
by Kriz on Jul 22, 2010 3:46 PM EDT reply actions 13 recs
Agree with the Rec
But I still think the most puzzling thing about Joe hasn’t been mentioned yet. Why his roster has been so frickin’ unbalanced for 2-3 years. I’m still optimistic enough to believe that if we had a guy big enough to play center on both ends effectively, that everyone else would play much better. People wouldn’t be forced into playing the next-biggest position (Tay and JJ at PF, CV at center, Rip at SF), they could play their natural position. Stuckey could be more of a passer because he could dump it into the post sometimes. We would have better spacing which would be better for everyone.
I mean, even frickin’ Yahoo fantasy leagues make you have teams with a certain number of players at positions they actually have a history of playing. I realize that good centers don’t grow on trees, but that should have been priority #1 for a whle now.
I think that Joe has actually been looking for a center for quite awhile, it’s just that he hasn’t been willing or able to put up the pieces necessary to acquire a decent big man. My thought is that Joe is waiting (…..and waiting,) for a chance to add quality big man without giving up too many pieces or over-spending on free agency.
There's no justice like angry mob justice!
At least we didn't just finish signing Darko
I’d rather be unsure about what we’re doing than know that we’re building around Joe Johnson, or better yet, Rudy Gay. Yeah it doesn’t seem like we have the wrong personnel to win, it’s not like we tried to build a playoff team around gilbert arenas. We have GM problems that are slightly bad, we don’t GM problems that defy logic.
I definitely don't think its as doomsday as other perceive.
For example if Joe managed to trade both Rip and Tay, either for expirings, picks, young guys or a center, I would definitely get in tune with “we are rebuilding” and feel much more encouraged moving forward.
I don’t really feel terrible about being a bad young team (for a limited period of time), I don’t, however, feel good about being a bad relics team. That could quickly change next season.
And to make it clear, I fully comprehend that Rip is better than Gordon and Prince is better than any other of the SFs we have on the roster. I simply feel that at the stage this team is, neither make sense to stay. Not for us and most certainly not for them.
Where in the world is Trent Plaisted?
by Kriz on Jul 22, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
is there anyway that joe manages to trade rip and tay?
for something useful?
by redwingxviii on Jul 22, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
expirings, picks, young guys or a center
by redwingxviii on Jul 22, 2010 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
So...
you’re basically saying “what are the chances Joe manages to trade Rip and Tay?”
fair enough
but no chance of both right? maybe tay fetches something.
by redwingxviii on Jul 22, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Talk about what have you done for me lately...
No credit is given to how he turned this team from a mediocre team that was about to lose it’s best player when he took over into one of the model franchises of the league.
Oh well, the only thing power rankings have ever done for me is helped me kill the rest of a work day.
My two favorite teams are the Tigers and Brewers. Drunk tigers. That sounds about right.
Me in 140 characters
half of his gm stint is brilliant
half is abysmal.
by redwingxviii on Jul 22, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
He's managed to turn them back
And it’s a stretch to say last years team was mediocre.
I know I'm on sbnation right now, but SBnation, fuck you guys
and your stupid list.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
It'll all be better in 3 easy steps:
1) trade rip for a role player + 1st round pick
2) trade Mad Max for T. Will
3) let prince expire
Next offseason we’d have 2 first rounders, 3 or 4 seconds plus like 10 mil in cap space.
Jokes aside, you agree with that plan.
Jokes back on, I’m weary about Kobe’s finger…
by Roll The Dyess on Jul 22, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm going with Matt Barnes' colon
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 23, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
picking out 4 million dollar "I'm sorry I raped that hotel maid" rings for his wife?
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
Actually I think its more like a "I'm sorry I had butt sex with a white chick and she claimed it was rape" ring for his wife
I don’t buy that that girl was raped at all. Why the fuck would Kobe fucking Bryant rape any girl when he could have any girl he wanted…and its not like that chick was all that attractive either. I mean I know that hasn’t stopped NBA players before and Kobe obviously has an unique sense of “style” (see white Amish outfit), but I don’t believe for a second that he forced himself on her…I think she was just pissed that the black mamba rec’d her clone.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
To be fair, if at any point she told him to stop, I believe that constitutes rape.
It could have initially been consensual and maybe she couldn’t handle the black mamba.
Either way, her behavior after clearly showed she wasn’t raped.
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 23, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Only Kobe, the maid, his wifey, and Shaq know the real truth
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
Are they trying to provoke JoeD into making a move?
Otherwise this article serves no purpose. It is stupid and baseless, subjective and trite, ill-informed to the point where it is insulting to author. This whole SB nation, except for this site, is less credible because they decided to waste their bandwidth on this trash.
I hate to say it, but I kind of like what Kahn is doing right now.
Lots of young players
No albatross contracts(Darko’s isn’t good but it’s only 5 a year)
Trading Jefferson for 2 1sts plus Koufos was very solid
Plus he still has the rights to Rubio in his back pocket
WHHHHAAAAAAATTTT?
How can you say that? Sure he’s got some good young pieces. But he’s mystifying. Why would you need Michael Beasley when you already have Kevin Love? Why Ridnour when you had Sessions? And Rubio’s not coming over anytime soon. Kahn seems to me like a smart guy that has no real idea how to put a team together, so he’s trying to get together as many pieces as possible, seeing what sticks, and then attempting to discard what doesn’t.
by Biz Markie Moon on Jul 22, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Morey was ranked 3rd and this is his supposed long-term plan.
Build enough assets to eventually make a big move to bring in the superstar the team is missing.
Why wouldn’t you have Beasley with Love? They’ll probably end up finishing a lot of games together. They’re taking a flyer on him for a year with a team option for the second year. He took Ridnour, because he’s going to trade sessions. And it doesn’t matter if Rubio is coming over or not, they still have his rights to trade if they wish.
I think i remember reading last year that Kahn wanted to redo the roster with his kind of guys and it appears that’s exactly what he’s doing.
by Roll The Dyess on Jul 22, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
i think you only have bees w/love if you add honey. /badpun’d.
Beasley was kept off the floor at the end of games last season for the heat, who had only 1 legit scoring option, so i don’t see how he “finishes games” for minny this year. And, i think the only way he’s on the floor w/love is playing the 3, which he’s under equipped to handle most nights. Doesn’t have a good handle, his shot is inconsistent, keeping him from spreading the floor, and he’s too slow to guard most wings in the league.
by C$ on Jul 22, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t actually care if finishes or not. It’s a very low risk move for the wolves with a potentially high payoff.
by Roll The Dyess on Jul 22, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
24th?
well they succeeded in shock value
no way in the world is dumars 24th out of 30 GMs in the league, this is laughable
well guess it’s up to dumars over the next year or two to prove the doubters wrong
in a year or two, if he doesn't prove the doubters wrong
you’ll give him another year or two.
witty signature
by Mike Payne on Jul 22, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
that's what I gave dude last summer
and hence my “fuckin’ A jod” post about jedis right after it expired.
witty signature
Some Brits will never take their Census seriously
Check this out, I LOL’d
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2757067.stm
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
nah i won't
you assume
however, as I’ve said before many teams go through bad stretches. classic example is the lakers who had a two to three year bad stretch. we’ve had two bad years, one in which was hard to judge b/c of injuries. obviously more moves need to be made.
If in TWO more years we’re still not doing any better then I will have given up hope.
I just don’t see how there are 23 other GMs on this list who has put together a team that’s been more consistent than the Pistons in the last 10 years. To judge it based on the last two years is very short-sighted.
the Lakers
lost one of their two best players to a trade demand. The pistons are fucked because of horrible personnel decisions by Jod. The two absolutely cannot be compared.
witty signature
the Lakers
didn’t want to pay Shaq the money he wanted, so they went with Kobe Bryant as the future and agreed to Shaq’s trade demand. After which they drafted Bynum and refused to trade him for Kidd. Kobe played with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown in his starting lineup!!! The Lakers were looking bad.
Keeping Bynum longer and holding onto Kwame until he was an expiring contract paid dividends. The rebuilding didn’t happen overnight and it’s not like all the Laker fans along thought “hey, we’re going somewhere with this team.”
I think the two can be compared. Dumars is getting judged based on the short-term. He, as well as just about any GM – particularily those in a rebuilding mode – should be rated based on long-term results. As many pointed out, Dumars has a great 10-year track record and it’s too early to say if he’s lost “it.”
24th is a joke.
I think the two can be compared.
We can respectfully disagree with one another. My point is that the Lakers got worse due primarily to issues beyond their GM’s control. The Pistons have lost 50% of their wins and 100% of their identity due to a long series of bad moves entirely within their GM’s control.
And 24th is a joke. I absolutely agree. 12th to 14th would sit well with me thanks to these last two years. Take them out of the equation, and 2nd or 3rd best GM is his without a single shred of doubt.
witty signature
by Mike Payne on Jul 22, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
Even with the mistakes, Dumars has accomplished more as a GM than most people on this list.
Also, what the hell is up with RC Buford? I thought the Manu extension wasn’t a good idea, and then they give Richard Jefferson four more years?
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 22, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty soon Sam Presti will be all.
“Russell Westbrook for Jose Calderon? How could I not do that deal?”
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 22, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I though the RJ think was a gambit to lessen their cap hit this year, and in exchange, RJ got a long term contract the year before the CBA renegotiation. Not saying it was a good plan, just that it makes SOME sense.
It's a good plan.
For Jefferson.
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 22, 2010 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
GAMBIT, eh?
I don’t think the CARDS are in their favor this time.
/nerd’d
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Jul 22, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
Do you want Dumars to be fired?
I can’t remember if you were ready or were giving him until X date. If you’re ready for him to go, my question for you is: How likely do you think it is that we are able to find an upgrade?
Well if Pritchard is still available.
I’d definitely consider going after him.
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 22, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd be open to that.
I remember reading an article about him being a big asshole and unprofessional, but I don’t remember the specifics.
Pritchard just didn't coexist well w/Paul Allen
Worst thing he did was draft Oden. I think the Darius Miles snafu was actually not his call at all.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
We actually covered this in another thread, about possible candidates to replace Dumars should he exit. At the time, pulling from available jobless GMs, I suggested that Danny Ferry would make an adequate replacement. No available GM would be better than the 2002-2004 Joe Dumars, but finding a replacement of better recent production could be possible.
I think that Danny Ferry did more than just a respectable job of building around Lebron, and his moves of bringing in Ben Wallace and Mo Williams pushed the Cavs from a 45 win team to a 66 win team. The guy made some pretty astonishing trades and brought in real talent around Akron’s Little Princess, and I don’t think anyone can blame dude for not trying to adequately give Lebron what he needed to win.
I think, after spending several years in San Antonio’s front office behind R.C. Buford, then being given a team but forced to build around a prima donna that couldnt’ execute, Ferry can flourish if he’s given a carte blanche ownership of a team in the truest of transitions. In short, what he’s done in the last three years has been vastly superior to what Dumars has done in the last three, and a three year contract to a guy like Ferry wouldn’t be without merit.
Do I want Dumars to be fired? Shit, I don’t know. When I said I’d “give him until the deadline”, I don’t know what personal ultimatum I had in mind. I think I just gave up on him as our GM, and if he can right the ship, okay, but my trust and support of him is gone. I know that doesn’t really answer your question, but I don’t really have an answer. I guess that’s it— after the deadline this year, I no longer support Joe as our GM.
witty signature
Well, that was pretty damn thoughtful
You make a solid argument. Ferry doesn’t exactly get me hot, as Gabe would say, but given that he’s available, it wouldn’t be a terrible idea.
ferry made some ok moves.
but the real spot on his record is that he appeared to just be a ghost gm, having to ok everything with bron before he pulled the trigger. he never got the marquee guys, he got the b list guys. now i dont think thats his fault. dudes like artest and amare didnt want to come to cleveland because lebron was so shady with his future plans. if bron bolted those guys would be stuck there like mo and antwan jamison are now. those guys prolly arent very happy about being stuck on a bron-less cavs.
Joe D made a choice to accelerate the rate at which the team went “into the crevasse”. All the decisions necessarily made the Pistons worse, but if he didn’t make them the team would have continued to devolve regardless, that wouldn’t have been in his control.
I do not blame you, Joseph Dumars, GM
for I would surely attempt to manuever into the crevasse at every opportunity. A man has needs, you know.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
Joe D made a choice to accelerate the rate at which the team went "into the crevasse"
1) Excellent use of crevasse. 2) I don’t mind too much that Jod decided to rebuild, even if it might have been premature, but I think he did it in the dumbest way possible.
deadhorsecanofwormslonglongtimeago: Jumping into the way back machine, apologies for pretentiousness of a year old self-quote (this is in alternate Piston reality, where these contracts would have expired this off-season):
Without the Billups trade (and with no Rip extension) we would have had the following expiring contracts:
Rip- 11.3m
Dice- 7m
Amir- 3.6m
Kwame- 4m
Pistons having > $25mil in expiring contracts heading into this off-season would have been a mighty fine position to start a rebuilding process.
by Gabe F-B on Jul 22, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
or
there is this fellow’s version (give it until at least .55):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaj0vs_kEfI
witty signature
How do you guage a GMs performance with statistics?
The best stat I can come up with would be…
Wins/Dollar Spent (adjusted for Salary Cap perhaps). I’m sure Dumars would rank higher than 24th.
Also, I wonder how the 2004 team’s payroll compared to the 2004 salary cap (and how other Championship teams compared as well).
That metric makes sense
and Dumars would probably be top five by that criteria (if you didn’t consider brand new GM’s that inherited good teams).
I believe just about every championship (and even contending) team is paying the luxury tax. I don’t think the Pistons have ever paid luxury tax.
Stat Lovers, care to weigh in? I will defer to your better judgment.
by Quick Darshan on Jul 22, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
It might be interesting to weight injuries in some way, like count an injury as some fraction of a win, or a negative dollar spent, to make up for things that are out of a GM’s control.
You should probably include the coaching staff salaries if possible in that analysis as well
For young GM’s you could try to find out how that number changes as they make whatever moves they made over the past year or two. (i.e. signing rudy gay, drafting Hasheem Thabeet, and trading away Pau Gasol caused a negative 8,000,000 in the GM index)
doesn't really work
What about teams that won a lot recently, but haven’t earned a championship (cavs, mavs, etc)? That 98th win is a lot bigger than the 97 before it. Also, is a more-expensive team worse than a team with equivalent wins but lesser payroll? In a big market like LA, and the dollars the Lakers generate, can you fault the GM for spending if the owner is willing?
To me, a gm’s value has as much to do with the means than the ends. The milestones of a GM’s career are the transactions he makes, and rating each one objectively, while accounting for all the variables involved, would be one hell of a complicated process, and even then, possibly impossible to get right.
witty signature
Complicated like... determining whether someone is a good defensive player?
I kid. But, seriously, I think wins is the best measure. Isn’t putting together a team that’s capable of winning it all the goal of a GM?
In my opinion, Dumars did that three times. When they won in ‘04. When they lost in ’05 and when they lost to the Celtics in ’08. Granted, only one time did it result in a title and that’s the bottom line.
And, even though the Cavs, Mavs, Suns and Nuggets came up empty when they had good seasons, I think it’s fair to say the GMs put them in a position to win it all.
by Quick Darshan on Jul 22, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I kid. But, seriously, I think wins is the best measure. Isn’t putting together a team that’s capable of winning it all the goal of a GM?
But like I said above wins != championships. The 2007 Mavericks won 67 regular season games and lost in the first round. So that immediately complicates the metrics— wins show the value of a GM, but championships are a greater currency, thus both should be factored into the equation. In my opinion, that is the very beginning of just how complicated a fair equation would become.
Complicated like… determining whether someone is a good defensive player?
Kidding or not, no— this is an entirely different kind of quantification. There are measures available to suggest defensive skill, and it’s no coincidence that the annual defensive rating record holders just so happen to be the best defenders in the league, the DPoY players, etc.
I think it’s fair to say the GMs put them in a position to win it all.
And I think it’s fair to counter that the teams may not have won it all because the GM’s system didn’t translate to the playoffs— i.e. the Phoenix Suns.
witty signature
What If
You put together a formula that accounted for regular season win %, a ratio of playoff games won divided by total wins required to win a championship (16 now, 14 pre-2003), and then account for the coach. Dumars would get MAJOR points for jettisoning Carlisle and hiring Brown. That was brilliant and led directly to a championship (and very nearly back-to-back). Dumars would also get major negative points for hiring Curry, which was an unmitigated disaster, both on the court and against the fashion world. In comparison, Danny Ferry would get above average marks, but would get dinged for continuing to employ Mike Brown after 2008.
if you are to fairly and accurately rate a GM
I think you need to find some way of quantifying transactions— free agent acquisitions, draft picks and trades. that is a ridiculous job, so many variables within and beyond a gm’s control, etc.
witty signature
With defensive rating, isn’t it quantifying how many points your team gives up per possession when you’re on the court. Basically, it’s quantifying the “end” rather than the “means” (blocking shots, taking charges, etc.).
Same with wins. Obviously using wins/dollar spent has flaws (like your Phoenix example). But so does defensive rating (if you only come in the game against backups, for example).
by Quick Darshan on Jul 22, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Drtg is by no means a comprehensive or conclusive measure of defensive ability. I think I see what you’re saying, though, and you’re correct in suggesting the two are similar measures in their inconclusive nature. I think I disagreed initially because I feel Drtg is more accurate than a measure of wins/expenses is for the value of a GM.
If I were to inherit the Miami Heat tomorrow and run the team for one year, I may be considered one of the best GMs in the league according to the number of wins. Hence my suggestion that the best way of measuring a GM’s performance is by developing a complex rating of the transactions he executes.
witty signature
Someone above mentioned factoring in the change in wins/dollar spent from year to year.
That’s probably a better way to quantify whether your off-season made the team better (while still being financially responsible).
by Quick Darshan on Jul 22, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
It would be a year to year metric.
And, of course, Dumars would fair poorly for last off-season.
by Quick Darshan on Jul 22, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
So Joe Dumars
from 2006-2008 pretty much gets an A+ even though he didn’t make any significant changes to the roster. Again, I think the only way to properly look at the value of a GM is to find a way of rating the transactions they execute.
witty signature
though you could argue that he deserved an A+ during those seasons by not feeling the need to make significant changes
a good GM knows when to make moves and when to not
that being said, I agree with you that there’s probably no one metric that can be used to judge a GM
where we disagree, is i also don’t think there are adequate stats to measure defensive skills. some stats imply them. in fact, stats in general can be down right deceiving. too many factors. at the end of the day, people have to watch the game and judge with their eyes and professional judgement, and stats help build a case.
just epinion.
a good GM knows when to make moves and when to not
And from where I sit, this is another knock on Joe in the last five years. The absolute weakest link on our team, our undoubtedly worst player when it mattered the most, is the guy he still hasn’t moved. If you can give a player an MVP trophy, our LVP in our last three playoff exits was Tayshaun Prince.
though you could argue that he deserved an A+ during those seasons by not feeling the need to make significant changes
No, Joe deserves a bad grade for not only failing to make the proper upgrades, but in moving the wrong players when he finally made moves. Did his lack of moves get us any closer to another championship?
witty signature
He wouldn't necessarily get an A+ for those years.
The metric would be based on the change in wins and the change in payroll (players and coaches).
by Quick Darshan on Jul 23, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with QD: a GM can only do so much. It’s up to the players to actually win ball games. The GM puts the pieces together and tries to put the franchise in the best position to be successful, because success = profits. The coaches and players have to make the big plays when it really counts, though.
by garrettelliott on Jul 22, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I think these are, in fact, very similar metrics. Yes, there are some measures of defensive ability, such as blocks, steals, rebounding etc. However, there are tons of unobserved and/or unquantifiable variables. That’s the same problem QD’s metric faces – it’s overly simplistic and doesn’t account for a whole host of unobserved variables.
And it seems tautological to suggest that the fact that DPOY candidates have low defensive ratings indicates that the rating is a good measure of defensive ability. DPOY candidates are evaluated on things like blocks, rebounds and steals – all things that are included in the Drtg. Because both systems are flawed in similar ways, it doesn’t make sense to use one to support the validity of the other.
it seems tautological to suggest that the fact that DPOY candidates have low defensive ratings indicates that the rating is a good measure of defensive ability.
I didn’t suggest “indication” in the sense that it proves its value, only that I don’t find the correlation coincidental.
blocks, rebounds and steals – all things that are included in the Drtg
Drtg does not include any of those stats into its measurement. It is solely a measure of the points allowed per 100 possessions when that player is on the court.
witty signature
My bad
I quickly googled defensive rating and the first link was for a defensive composite score (at 82games), which takes a bunch of stuff into account. So, I got a bit confused there. I retract the second paragraph of my comment. I think my first point stands on its own, though.
For sure, and I agree with your first point and QDs, he was right in the first place I suppose I wasn’t looking at it right.
witty signature
by Mike Payne on Jul 22, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Awwww
We are such civil and fair minded MFers. Pats on the back all around.
Can I get in on this action?
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 22, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Now all I can think of is that commercial.
Where the girl with down syndrome wins the Prom Queen vote.
Are… are you saying I’m retarded?
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 22, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Derp.
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 22, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
First Parkinsons, now down syndrome
Does this mean if I make a comment about some kid with autism, it’ll get greened?
by handsomerob1 on Jul 23, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
A ratio like this
would put a guy like Danny Ainge above Dumars, which is what we’re arguing in the first place.
by handsomerob1 on Jul 22, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Ainge spent a lot of money this year though. And they sucked a long time before getting the Big3.
by Quick Darshan on Jul 22, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
From the Wins Produced Perspective
The individual player data is already available in the form of Wins Produced per million. It would take some leg work, but one could compile the data by team and then compare.
Dumars 2001-2008 would be one of the best. Dumars since 2008 would be among the worst.
Garbage
How quickly we forget…
- The Pistons have won almost 59% of their regular season games in the 10 years Dumars has been GM.
- The Pistons have two finals appearances under Dumars.
- The Pistons won a championship under Dumars.
- The Pistons have been in the playoffs 8 of the 10 seasons Dumars has been GM.
All that while never paying luxury tax.
I am not a Dumars apologist, but 24th? Dumars could continue to screw the pooch for several more years before I could rank him outside of the top 10 GM’s. Winning is what matters. Only time will tell if he can turn this thing back around, but 24th?
Before all the “yeah but he hasn’t done anything good lately” comments pop up, I would encourage everyone to consider the above facts and look around the league.
I realize many people, myself included, are not happy with the apparent direction of the team. The fact is, the dude has earned a couple more years to try and right the ship. If, at that time, the Pistons are still in the lottery and do not have a promising future (like so many other teams), then I’d consider ranking him that low.
by waulie on Jul 22, 2010 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 14 recs
Rec'd
Also because I refuse to believe that Dumars is #24 in a league where the GMs are so atrocious that Billy freaking King just got another chance. BILLY KING.
Proper perspective...
unquestionably, this is the proper perspective to have. After we won it all in 04, I was happy enough to allow that to carry me through the remainder of time as a Pistons fan. Thats 3 titles in my lifetime as a very hardcore fan. So, no question, winning is what matters.
Unfortunately, the last two years have brought great doubt about the current direction of our team, and Dumars is the man to blame. I think getting rid of Saunders was a bad play, and not being willing to cede some modicum of control to A.Johnson was the wrong move when he could have been our coach. We are a complete mess as far as our current roster, and the truth is, we dont really have much hope for the forseeable future.
No superstar will ever want to come to Detroit (unless we somehow draft one). I think its time to just ride it out for the next two years or so and lets see how we look then. Time is the only thing to hopefully straighten this thing out…truth is, there is no quick fix. Theres no trade that will make a major difference for us right now thats realistic. There is no golden carrot. Patience, sadly since I am not at all remotely patient, is out only option here.
http://thefilmnest.com
Michigan, Pistons, Wings, Tigers, Chargers 'til I die.
There's no "proper" perspective on this...
We’re fans who either do or don’t like our GM and the direction he’s taking the franchise. Beyond the emotive responses, there are strong arguments on either side.
I’m not with Waulie in that I’m willing to just let it ride and see what happens, but I respect dude’s opinion on Dumars. I’d never say my opinion of Jod is right or proper. Sure, I’d defend my position, but not to the point that other fans’ aren’t entitled to a differing view.
by brgulker on Jul 23, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Will a "Star-Less" core work?
My fundamental distaste for this article and similar commentary against Dumars is in this quote:
Therefore, the only explanation for Dumars’ recent issues is that he must believe that, because he built a “star-less” core earlier, he can do it again. Newsflash Joe: you probably can’t. Lightning doesn’t strike in the same spot twice.
The authors here assume that NBA teams must have an ALL-NBA first team player to be relevant. GM’s without one should be working to get one, or develop one. The problem with doing this is what is about to us in the teal years, is happening to Cleveland, and will happen to New Orleans if Paul gets his way.
Why should the “Star” model be the only way to win? Joe D is clearly going to find this out, and I really respect him for resisting the urge to chase all the big name superstars. I also think that with out the injuries last year, I think this notion would have some more respect from people like this author, and maybe on forums like these.
Well...It has been
I mean, I’d be willing to say that in whatever one would consider the modern era of basketball, at least 90 percent, if not higher, of the teams winning titles had a definite superstar.
Good rebuttle by Hayes at PistonPowered: http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/07/joe-dumars-is-not-the-24th-worst-general-manager-in-the-nba/
by Boom Roasted on Jul 22, 2010 5:32 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Doesn't 24th Worst Make Him 6th Best?
Which is about where I have him. Just sayin’, you know?
by V. on Jul 23, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, can't resist
It seems to me that Prada doesn’t evaluate GMs consistently, and that’s why his list is so puzzling on so many levels. I’m not a Doomars fan ATM, but no way he’s worse than several of the guys ranked above him.
Exercises like this are fun and controversial. But this article offers little more than that. The lack of inconsistency from one evaluation to the other is damning, and quite honestly, I’m surprised to see SBNation publish something that’s done so poorly.
No doubt about it, Jod created a mess in Detroit, and he’s as responsible for our 27 wins as anyone or anything else. But to rank him among the bottom 6 is literally indefensible. I’m glad to see Patrick Hayes is already taking him to task, and I hope others do as well.
Flip side, Kriz’s comment above says it all perfectly.
What does SB stand for?
Spell Bad? Diehart? Who wrote this? I’m more likely to agree with the assessment if this dude could spell or have a basic understanding of grammar.
just EPINION
I'm going with Spell Bad
Only DBB seems to give half a damn about spelling and grammar
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 23, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I may be wrong on this
But I suspect it’s because most of the frequent commenters have graduated from high school, and our days of chatting on AIM for the lolz is long gone.
Speak for yourself buster
I only come here because those AOLholes banned me for a century from their chatrooms. Come 2108 I am sooo out of here
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
14/m/mi, asl?
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
mine
should be NTBURSAB
witty signature
by Mike Payne on Jul 24, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Did you say...sha poopy?
SAVE SAVE SAVE DANCE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SATuCPVO8x4
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Sexy Bloggers
That’s what I tell myself in the mirror before I kiss it.
Detroit Bad Boys- SB Nation's Detroit Pistons Blog
Twitter
They’re small enough to hit individual keys?
by Birdman84 on Jul 23, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
WOW
Amazing offseason by the Lakers! Love what they did.
They re-sign Derek Fisher (at very least can hit some clutch shots and is a great leader to have on your team) and add Steve Blake as the backup point guard (love that pickup). They also signed Theo Ratliff (insurance for Bynum who goes down with injury annually) and Matt Barnes today. The rich get richer!
LA > Miami
yeah man
those role player they signed are WAYYYYYYYYY more of an upgrade than Lebron James and Chris Bosh. Don’t get me wrong, I hate those bitches, but I think I see a triple rainbow forming in your comment.
witty signature
hahaha
by no means am I implying those role players are > Lebron and Bosh.
Obviously Miami had a great offseason. I’m just saying, Lakers who are two-time champs, and already have the chemistry + great coach just got better. Miami should be very good but I still think the Lakers are better. I thought that before these additions – the additions just made the Lakers stronger.
The knock against the Lakers last year was the bench – they addressed that this summer.
it's so intense.
the rainbow. what does it mean?
Detroit Bad Boys- SB Nation's Detroit Pistons Blog
Twitter
I don’t think LA really got that much better. Ratliff’s washed up and is insurance at best. Fisher’s got a year left, maybe 2, but iirc they lost Farmar.
Barnes is a quality role player, but where will his minutes come from and at what position? Is he going to backup Artest? If so, that’s seriously limited time. Is he going to backup Pau? That’s Odom’s job. I’m not sold Barnes will play enough to make a big impact. We’ll see, I guess.
Steve Blake is probably the best signing, and I’d hope he winds up starting over Fisher.
I was shocked when I saw that the Lakers added Matt Barnes. They’re going to be really, really tough to beat. Not that Matt Barnes is awesome or anything, but it just seems like their entire roster is filled with solid contributors now.
by garrettelliott on Jul 24, 2010 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
They had pretty weak depth
And it seems like they fixed that. Pretty scary, considering that, you know, they won back-to-back championships with a shitty bench.
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Jul 25, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Jod is doing the right thing
I think we’d better get used to the idea of the current roster being together until February. This is a team for sale while the league is on the verge of labor strife. Jod isn’t going to make any trades that bring in salary commitment when no one knows who the next owner will be or what the next CBA is going to look like. The goal at this moment should be clearing the books to be a major player under the next CBA which is going to likely drastically reduce player salaries. Any contract signed before 2011 is going to be an albatross for a team in 18 months. The only justification for doing that is if you think you’re going to win the title in June or you’re locking up the Durantula long-term. That’s not happening here. Simply put, Jod might not look like the greatest GM right now, but he is being responsible to the franchise in the big picture. Even if that means throwing this year away.
I get the feeling we’re going to keep this roster up to the trade deadline. If this crew can cling to the 7/8 position, I expect they’ll ride it out until the end of the season. If the wheels fall off again, Tay and Rip will get moved out for future assets (picks/rookie contracts) that can be utilized after the lockout.
Now let my virtual crucification begin.
Nobody wants to virtually crucify you.
But I can’t totally agree with your post, although I with much of it. Simply because Dumars has been at least attempting to trade all through the off-season and draft. Clearly he is dissatisfied with the roster as-is and despite the ownership limbo and CBA questions, we’ve all read about several missed/near trades.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
Agreed
I think you have to keep working to try to improve short term with an eye to the 800 lb gorilla in the back of the room. You never stop trying. Unless you’re the Clippers. You just can’t deal as freely as you’d like, which might be why we haven’t seen any moves.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
but he is being responsible to the franchise in the big picture.
It’s easy to make that statement if you overlook the fact that he has $23 million committed to two shooting guards.
witty signature
I can't explain that
Maybe he thought Rip would be easier to move than he has been. Maybe he genuinely thinks he should keep both. Maybe he is going with the old axom of stockpiling talent and waiting for the right move. It is strange and gives a legitimate gripe to everyone who is pissed at him.
I don’t necessarily see having both guys on the roster as being irresponsible, though. Redundant and confusing? Yes and probably. But they’re both assets, not dead weight.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t necessarily see having both guys on the roster as being irresponsible, though.
I suppose we just see it differently. I see committing $23M out of a $56M cap to not-even-all-star shooting guards as completely and undeniably irresponsible. …especially in light of your entire point about playing it safe with the coming CBA update.
witty signature
I see your point, and I think it’s legit. When you look at the deals Joe Johnson, Mike Miller, and JJ Redick got in the past month, I really don’t see the deals Rip or Gordon have as that bad. I admit they are not good in combination. There is a tradeable asset (likely Rip) in those commitments, though. Rip got a good deal at the height of his value, and at a time when the current labor uncertainty wasn’t really foreseeable. I don’t see that as irresponsible on the part of Jod.
Same with Gordon. I think we have him signed at market value. I guess his value will be only confirmed if he can bounce back and average 18-20/game this year.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
If Rip is a tradeable asset, why is he still on our roster going on two years from the date of his extension? Also, count me among the group that will never buy the BS that “well, those other dudes got overpaid, so our contracts are just fine”. Gimme break o’ that kitkat.
witty signature
A contract value is determined by what the market will pay for the services. I’ve heard people bitching about Joe Johnson’s contract, but not Miller or Redick so much. I think Gordon’s value is in between the values of Johnson and Miller/Redick. That’s also where the terms of his contract lie…in between those two groups.
What players that are superior to Gordon or Villanueva got paid less than they did in the last 12 months? I’m seriously asking. There are probably some out there I don’t know about that would make me reconsider.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Get that aneurysm taken care of
Which superior twos to Gordon (of which there are plenty) have negotiated contracts that resulted in less than $11 mil/year?
I’m not aware of better twos in the NBA that are took less than $11 mil/year in the past year. Riddle me that, and I’m more than willing to back off.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt we'd agree
Because I’m willing to bet we’d strongly disagree as to what constitutes “good” or “better” than Ben Gordon. I’m the minority on this one in these parts, but I think Ben Gordon is close to useless, literally. I think his ability to shoot three point shots masks the gaping holes in the rest of his game in the eyes of many and that he’s a net negative to any team that employs him.
I would rather have Mike Miller, JJ Reddick, or just about any other SG that could be had for the MLE than I would Ben Gordon. I don’t dislike him as much as I disliked AI, because AI is an ass and BG strikes me as a good human being, but as far as players go, I think they do about the same amount of good for their teams — take lots of shots, play bad defense, dominate the ball, fail to create assists, turn it over frequently, and on and on.
Now I’m on the haterade train. I’ll stop now.
Anthony Morrow
in a heartbeat. $4 million a year, career 46% shooter from three, doesn’t give up size at his position and is a slightly better defender than BG.
Beyond that, I agree with BRG on Redick and Miller.
witty signature
An attempt at a serious reply to a serious question
A contract value is determined by what the market will pay for the services.
Who else was bidding that highly for Ben Gordon? If the statement above is accurate, then this shouldn’t be a hard question to answer.
The thing that has made Joe great in the eyes of many is (was?) his ability to see through the errors in judgment that create market value. I.e., A player like Ben Wallace as having a different (but equal) value to a player like Grant Hill. In the early part of the decade, Joe seemed to be able to see that guys like Ben Gordon get paid too much relative to how they help their teams and guys like Ben Wallace (or at least until Chicago’s offer) didn’t get paid enough relative what how they help their teams.
In other words, what made Joe great, in my eyes anyway, was his ability to see that market value is artificial and often incorrect, and he played that to his and his team’s advantage. The only move since the CB trade that falls into that category is Ben Wallace — and I write that off more to Ben wanting to retire in the D than Joe’s brilliance.
by brgulker on Jul 23, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think the Bulls offered 8 or 9 mil/year as an extension and Gordon wouldn’t bite.
And I’m really not trying to be disagreeable. I might be off base on this. I just don’t see the Gordon or Villanueva contracts as that bad. I do think it’s redundant to have guys paid like Rip and Gordon are at one position, though.
I guess I’m just trying to take a broader view of the situation beyond the recognition that our roster isn’t great right now.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not trying to be disagreeable, either. As I said above, I think it’s likely we’ll agree because I am pretty much convinced that Ben Gordon is a crappy player with little room for improvement. His scoring numbers coupled with the handful of clutch shots he hit against Boston a couple years ago inflated his “market value.” I just don’t agree with the market on this particular point.
THE MARKET IS NEVER WRONG
/Milton Friedman’d
Dumars abbility to evaluate talent
I agree with you, but I think Joe lost his best staff evaluator in John Hammond in 2008 which started this slide. Notice Hammond had a higher rating (taking it for what it is) with “Joes” system. I think that staff loss affected our situation more than many even noticed. Milwaukee has shown pretty good improvement since his arrival,
But with their powers combined they could play power forward...(2 guard + 2 guard = 4...4 = to power forward)
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I like that math
Can Terrico White (1.5) + Greg Monroe (4) = a super center (5.5)?
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Your math fails
Jonas Jerebko is obviously a 10.
by handsomerob1 on Jul 23, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
no it doesn't...Jerebko's rule of handsomeness doesn't apply to this mathematical equation
Were we to consider Jerebko in an equation of his own it would likely look something like this:
Jerebko – Infinity is > E, where E represents everything.
And yes, were we to combine Terrico White and Greg Monroe, it would in fact result in a 5.5 super center or what I like to call an AP 5 because just like with an AP class, he exceeds the normal range of potential positions by 10% (at least thats how it worked at my high school)
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on Jul 23, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So if we added in Jason Maxiell
would this creation eat 10% more babies too?
by handsomerob1 on Jul 23, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Adding Maxiell would make it more of like a Junior in HS taking college level caclulus courses
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
The goal at this moment should be clearing the books to be a major player under the next CBA which is going to likely drastically reduce player salaries.
The problem is, it is literally impossible — literally impossible — for Jod to clear enough money to be competitive under the new CBA immediately. We’d literally have to trade all but 1-2 of our large contracts for expirings in order to do that.
I get the feeling we’re going to keep this roster up to the trade deadline. If this crew can cling to the 7/8 position, I expect they’ll ride it out until the end of the season. If the wheels fall off again, Tay and Rip will get moved out for future assets (picks/rookie contracts) that can be utilized after the lockout.
I get that same feeling; however, if we don’t move Tay by the trade deadline we either let him walk or re-sign him. Neither is a good option. A S&T will be all but impossible with a new CBA looming. And this is pure epinion, but if the window to move Rip for assets is still open, it will most surely be closed by season’s end. It’s now or never for Rip, IMO.
I hate to be a downer, but
I don’t see this roster competing for a playoff spot, even in the weak-after-the-cream East.
I think there is a chance to compete
If you figure the top six seeds are more than likely locked up (Orlando, Miami, Boston, Chicago, Milwaukee, Atlanta in some order), who is more likely than the Pistons to get the 7/8? Charlotte? New York? Philly? All of those teams have serious flaws as big as the Pistons. Cleveland, Toronto, Indiana, Washington, New Jersey? I think the Pistons have more proven talent on the roster than any of those squads. I definitely think there’s an opportunity to compete for the 7/8.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Charlotte had a winning record last year and the Pistons were 14 games under .500…
New York had a better record than the Pistons, and probably improved their overall roster. Unless you think Lebron was worth 40 wins by himself, you have to remember the Cavs won 61 games last year. Even if Lebron’s absence was responsible for half those wins, they’re still a 30 win team (i.e. better than we were last season).
Our interior defense completely hinges on whether or not Ben Wallace stays healthy. I love him, but he’s going to be 36, the chances of him staying perfectly healthy aren’t great. Without him, this becomes our PF/C rotation: CV/Max/Monroe/Wilcox… That = lottery team.
Washington is the only team that is definitely worse than the Pistons.
Charlotte lost its starting point and center. I don’t think the Knicks are appreciably better even with Stoudemire. I think Lebron is worth 30 wins, and there might be two players on the Cavs roster I would want on a team. I think that puts the Pistons in the mix for the 7/8 with even average injury luck. Of course, we’ll know if I’m just full of shit around March.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Compete is a pretty forgiving word
We were competing for a spot most of last year until we went on this horrid losing streak when everybody was injured in the 2nd half. We finished 14 games away from the playoffs and we went 2-18 before we went on our season ending winning streak. We’ll definitely be in the conversation, we’ll definitely be “competing”
I think we make the playoffs this year and get utterly destroyed in the first round. For what it’s worth.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Well OK, we may be "competing" for a 7-8 slot
Given how bad the East is. But we also may not be. Even when everyone is healthy, the roster is ridiculously out of balance. A healthy Rip and BG only have 48 total minutes to split at SG, same with Tayshaun, JJ, and our other SFs (and no, playing them at PF isn’t a good solution).
Not only are we screwed defensively if Ben W. goes down, we’re still kind of screwed on offense when he plays. Don’t get me wrong, I love Ben. But the good Pistons teams succeeded with him despite his general lack of scoring because (i) they were stacked with other scoring threats, and more importantly (ii) they all could play defense and keep the other team in the 70s-80s regularly. Whatever you think about (i) and today’s team, (ii) definitely is not true.
So yeah, barring some big move (and maybe even after a big move), the best realistic hope might be getting swept (or losing 4-1) to Miami, Boston, or even Orlando in the first round.
Agreed
Injuries, defensive buy-in from the roster are going to determine this year’s outcome. And I’m not trying to say having an ultimate goal of a 7/8 seed is anything great, but I think that’s the realistic top-end for this roster.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
last season
our offense was much better when ben was on the court, despite his lack of scoring.
witty signature
That's interesting
What are the numbers/stats that show that? Not that I’m amazed — rebounding and playing defense does make offense easier — just curious. Second question: was our offense actually “good” — say, in comparison to NBA averages — when Ben was in? Because when we’re talking about last year, “Good compared to other Detroit lineups” isn’t the same as “good.”
I also worry about “hack a Ben,” which some teams were going to even in the small handful of close games we had.
But again, I stress, I love Ben, I’m glad he’s on the team, and on this roster he should start.
TJ, I'm with you
And Gabe also. I suspect it’s more likely than not that we’re lottery bound and lottery bound badly.
With this roster as it is
Between the 8th seed and a first round sweep or the lottery, I pick the lottery. And if we end up in the lottery I HOPE its in a very bad way.
Where in the world is Trent Plaisted?
Between the 8th seed and a first round sweep or the lottery, I pick the lottery. And if we end up in the lottery I HOPE its in a very bad way.
Nothing like hoping your favorite team loses.
One can hopes.
Is that so you will be correct in saying BG and CV “suck”? Maybe it’s because the higher the pick the more we are free to complain about the pick being wrong before he ever plays a game. Or, maybe it will be another opportunity to complain about draft position. “If we hadn’t have won those meaningless games we could’ve had the X pick instead of the Y pick.” Clearly, this will set us back for several years.
Is that so you will be correct in saying BG and CV "suck"?
No, it’s because I was being sarcastic. “Hopes” has become a meme like Ramon Sessions or Stuckey’s colon. I was just messing around.
But, a serious response. I think those two guys do suck, and I think they’ll prove it next season (again). I think our best-case scenario is being just good enough to miss out of the best lottery picks, which come 10 months from now after we’ve failed to make a brilliant trade, will be the most realistic option for rebuilding the franchise.
I’m not hoping for intentional losses. But if the choice is a first round sweep at the hands of Miami or a lottery pick, I’ll root for the lottery pick…
Call me crazy...I think we can take 'em
We might match up pretty well with Miami. If Kuester can teach everybody to play decent defense, just not to be a deficit basically, then we would be pretty strong against them. We are deep in all the areas they are strong, lots of perimeter defenders, and we should be able to run them off the floor when the y put their bench in. Lebron wade and Labroshdoodle will have to each go for 30 for them to have a chance. They are old enough that you can assume somebody on their team is injured. I know it sounds crazy, but didn’t people say it was crazy when we thought we could beat the lakers?
Let's try to win more than 30 games first.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
by Skylar on Jul 25, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
How about the preseason...
That’s more realistic anyways, Lebron, Wade and bosh won’t even be playing that much, and the heat bench is all old and will be at their rustiest. When the fourth quarter rolls around I’ll take the summer league team over Juwan howard and the nobodies any day of the week.
but didn’t people say it was crazy when we thought we could beat the lakers?
only crazy people said that.
witty signature
Stop it
I hope you are kidding. That team would literally destroy the Pistons, it couldn’t even be called basketball. Who is going to stop Lebron? or Wade? No one on the pistons, not a single solitary sole they could put on the floor could hope to match up.
Call me crazy, but...
Last time we met LBJ in the Playoffs, he managed to make us his bitch all by his lonesome. Add Bosh, Wade, and several quality role players to the mix… Yeah, I don’t see that one happening.
Vs. LA at least we knew we had a brilliant defense, and anytime a team has that, it has a chance. We don’t have brilliant anything right now.
Hard to know about the new CBA
When you compare what the owners have been floating versus the current system, it’s tough to see how radical the new system will be. Ideas like percentage contracts have even been floated. That would revolutionize the system. Not sure how I feel about that. Or we might just be looking at a small revenue restructuring if you believe the players.
I do think the new CBA will be sufficiently different that teams will want out of almost any current deal on the books. The less you have committed, the better. Rip, Gordon, and Villanueva will be our potential albatrosses under the new CBA. I think Rip is a definite and Gordon/Villanueva might be depending on production moving forward.
Totally agree with you on trading Tay by the deadline.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I see what you’re saying. My point, in two sentences:
1) Under the current CBA, we’re dangerously close to the luxury tax within the next 1-2 seasons given our albatrosses and our rookie deals that need to be re-upped.
2) Therefore, it would take some of the most brilliant salary dumping in the history of salary dumping in order to make us financially competitive for FAs (which is how I am reading you) under a new CBA. Assuming the salary cap drops or changes under a new CBA, we’ve got work to do to just to remain within those constraints.
More than two sentences.
I’m talking FAs or, more likely, be a trading partner that can pick over the potential carnage of teams that get hammered under a new CBA. And I won’t hold you to the two-sentence guarantee.
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
"Play him off.." Theory about JoeD's recent decisions
What if Joe D made a choice, around the time we failing got Nazr Mohammed to swallow cap space and play horribly, to change the way he did business? What if he decided to only get rid of players once they get “Played off,” replaced from within. As a new young player shows they are ready to take on the position, Joe hops behind the keyboard and plays off the old player.
Seriously, it makes sense. He signed a free agent to plug a hole when Ben Left, but what happened (the guy sucked, we had webber, then McDyess, but it wasn’t enough, you know the story). So right then he could have started this new policy and only get rid of people once someone steps up and shows that they can be replaced.
Starts off with Chauncey, gets a guy to play along side him for a while then boom he replaces him. Play him off Joe.
Next he tries to replace Tayshaun with an athletic perimeter defender, Afflalo and Sharpe aren’t starters, so play them off, and then he drafts all the small forwards. Now all these small forwards are competing for the one spot, it’ll be interesting to see who wins. In the mean time Tay stays
Ben Gordon was suppposed to replace Rip, and their parallel injuries prevented them from going head to head last year, so we’re keeping Rip around to finish this out.
Rasheed and Dyess, which hurts the plan because he was stuck in the post. But he doesn’t bring in a random name because they wouldn’t be coming from within. Instead he gets Ben Wallace.
If this is the strategy, Joe will keep Wallace around until he gets played out, probably twice. Given the dearth of tough defensive minded bigs in the league, I can see why he would take an approach that is more developmental. I imagine he is trying to make bigs out of Kwame, Jerebko, CV, Monroe, and whoever comes next, instead of trying to plug holes with people from flawed systems.
Kind of explains what the decisions are, also kind of explains that whole “you better be ready to sit” chat that he had with rookies. It also gives you an idea of whats coming next. Logically, Wilcox should be gone by the end of the summer because he is taking up space. I then expect our bigmen to like a summer camp with Maxiell and Wallace as the counselors as the three above, and probably Koshawal spend pre-season learning and competing. It also lets me not count on the savior free agent, or roster altering trade to be coming before November because its against the plan.
After a couple of seasons with this “Play him off” culture, it might make our organization more viable than the rest of the NBA. Of course if there is no evidence of success in the next 2 years, or no evidence of a plan between now and february (removal of Wilcox, trade of Tay, ascendance of Gordon), then I will think its time for Joe to go.
Interesting theory
To me, it seems very risky, because it requires sticking with old, declining players that command large salaries. And it means that young players inevitably end up riding the pine behind those old players. Which makes it very hard for any of the young players to prove their value or lack thereof.
Hmmm…Which pretty much explains the past two seasons quite well.
Old Players Pose Problems
Also, it implies that you completely ignore your old players declining trade value. What if Ben Gordon doesn’t pan out, and the theory forces us to get rid of him, then what? Rip is going to be less of a player in a year or two, and what we can get from him then is certainly worse than whatever we could have gotten for him a year ago, and probably what we could get for either gordon or rip this year. I guess if Rip doesn’t decline, and if he keeps himself in shape kind of like reggie miller, he might still be a good enough player that he can still be effective in 3 year or so, maybe Ben won’t be able to out play him. Having Ben around to threaten him will be what gives Rip the motivation to stay in shape while we are rebuilding.
I agree (I think). I think the risk of this type of plan is mitigated when the players who are competing to outplay the veterans are young players on small contracts. Ben Gordon’s contract is an enormous monkey wrench to the plan if this is in fact it.
Perhaps that is why the Pistons are really hoping that Gordon plays amazing. You say that in quotes from Langlois in the mailbag like this:
Tiba (Detroit): Do you see the Kings willing to trade Dalembert for Gordon and Wilcox? They have plenty of excellent bigs and are short on guards and Dalembert is just what we need.
Langlois: I don’t think the Kings are eager to trade Dalembert, but for Gordon? Yeah, I think they’d jump all over that one. No, I don’t see the Pistons being remotely interested in that deal. They’re looking for a big season from Gordon.
I also think a reason why the pistons are hesitating on will bynum is that they know he isn’t good enough push Stuckey, but Stuckey needs to be pushed this year, its his contract year.
One more piece of evidence of why this theory might be in action (though it isn’t a good piece): Michael Curry. Joe D was really big on having a coach come from within the organization half way through Flip’s last year. At least he wasn’t stupid enough to stick with Curry, but his replacement was pseudo within, Kuester used to coach with the pistons before Flip was hired.
An alternate reality
I can think of a scenario which conforms more to your theory than the current Stuck – Rip – Gordon scenario.
Billups – Rip – Stuck.
Since Stuckey plays both positions, and since Stuckey’s currently on a cheap rookie deal, if the plan was to let the young guys outplay the old guys, why trade Billups for AI/Gordon? Or maybe I’m just spinning my wheels.
Yeah...
And when you look at the two most glaring problems in Stuckey’s arsenal, playing alongside Rip and Billups would have given him experts in each subject:
- consistent jump shooting (Rip)
- Leading the team as floor general (Chauncey)
Having those two guys to develop and shape Stuckey as our future franchise scoring point guard would have been the best case scenario. Honestly, if I’m Stuckey, I probably feel more cheated than anyone else in that franchise maybe with the exception of Rip (although he still got his big pay day).
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Stuckey can't be that upset...
He could have been drafted by the Timberwolves. A year with Chauncey is better than a year with Sebastian Telfair
5 minutes with Chauncey
is better than a year with Sebastian Telfair.
by handsomerob1 on Jul 24, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefuly we will have healthy players this season.
JOD will loose then his ‘better watch out healthy Pistons’ argument that was overused by him.
I'm Astounded By Many of Your Remarks
I can’t seem to use the link at the top of the page which details the other rankings of the other 29 GM’s, but I couldn’t absolutely disagree more with brgulker and many of you who say Dumars lacks a direction. Dumars has been a disaster since he traded Chauncey? What?!?!? Please allow me to educate you. First off, I’m not claiming Dumars had the foresight to know that the teams who missed out on the Lebron-Wade-Bosh-Boozer-Nowitzki-Pierce-Johnson-Stoudemire-Allen bonanza would GROSSLY overspend to get average NBA players on their roster. He may have been that clever, but I wasn’t, so I can’t allow myself to concede that HE was. However, what he did was trade a player on the decline (Chauncey Billups) for essentially two players who are entering their prime. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – give me one hot playoff series from Villanueva and Gordon and everyone who called the Billups trade a farce will be back on Joe D’s nuts again saying it was a great move, which it WAS. Yes, I didn’t want to see Chauncey go. I would have rather seen ‘Sheed go. But a deal is a deal. Dumars is building an athletic, long, tall team that can run and that has multiple options on offense. He’s trying to train a majority offense-oriented team to play defense, and that’s why we were low in many defensive categories. I could go on, but I won’t bore you any longer.
You can't reap the reward if you don't first take the risk.
BUNKER BABY!
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Since you called me out, specifically...
However, what he did was trade a player on the decline (Chauncey Billups) for essentially two players who are entering their prime. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – give me one hot playoff series from Villanueva and Gordon and everyone who called the Billups trade a farce will be back on Joe D’s nuts again saying it was a great move, which it WAS.
Is CB on the decline more effective than Stuckey, Gordon, and/or CV?
Re: Hot Playoff Series. A team has to get to the playoffs before its players can have a hot playoffs series. And our core, which includes BG and CV, isn’t good enough to get there.
I’ve never been on Jod’s nuts, and I promise you I won’t be as long as Ben Gordon’s on the books, just for the record. I’d rather be the guy that’s honestly critical when his team is actively effing itself than the fanboy who refuses to admit his childhood hero can make a mistake (or two or three).
Dumars is building an athletic, long, tall team that can run and that has multiple options on offense.
Yeah, our offense sure is potent!
Is this a reference to long, smooth, strokes??
by mountaineermac on Jul 23, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
and happy little trees?
BOB ROSS’D
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Still Astounded By Many of Your Remarks
Give it to me AGAIN! (sorry – had to) I will continue to bore you. Many fans still hate on Joe D for Darko. We ALL need to move past that. Darko was a bad pick. I would love for anyone out there to find me a lottery draft that didn’t have at least two huge busts in it. Yes, #2 shouldn’t bust, but it did. However, he turned a big mistake into a little reward – when he traded Darko or Orlando, in return we received the pick we used to draft Rodney Stuckey, our poor man’s D-Wade. With some of the horrible signings we’ve seen this summer (Amir Johnson for 35 mil? Gooden for 32? Outlaw for 35 mil??? Outlaw’s avg’s – 9 points, 4 boards) how can you possibly complain with Charlie V at 7 mil/year and BG at 11/year. Many of you would have preferred to have received Bosh or Boozer and sign them to a max contract, thereby crippling the team’s resources for a non-superstar. Would you rather have Joe Johnson at 6 yrs, 120 million?!?!?! Give this team a chance (its a playoff team without a doubt) to play with a healthy roster and you’ll see that Dumars plan is right on track. RIP and TAY become more attractive to others teams THE CLOSER WE GET TO FEBRUARY! One will likely be gone, possibly both. But Joe won’t trade them unless he gets what he wants in return. I have no problem exercising PATIENCE, which Joe is as well. Can’t anyone understand that?
You can't reap the reward if you don't first take the risk.
You know that this ranking didn't come out of this website, right?
The guy who made these rankings was Mike Prada at SB nation, not brgulker of Detroit Bad Boys.
The whole article is here:
http://www.sbnation.com/2010/7/22/1582380/nba-general-manager-rankings-pat-riley-heat
My Bad
Thanks tads
You can't reap the reward if you don't first take the risk.
by Retiredat23 on Jul 23, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
No Problem, Totally agree with what you're saying too
Just direct some of that venom towards the person who needs to hear it.
Prada also runs Bullets Forever
and does a lot of work for SB Nation DC. I think he’s way off-base with his analysis of Ernie Grunfeld though, even though the #18 ranking is about right.
by handsomerob1 on Jul 23, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
this kid has a serious case of Toxic Epidermal Necrolysis and should probably get that checked out.
Detroit Bad Boys- SB Nation's Detroit Pistons Blog
Twitter
when he traded Darko or Orlando, in return we received the pick we used to draft Rodney Stuckey, our poor man’s D-Wade.
Give me a break. Stuckey hasn’t been anything more than a middling combo guard to this point in his career and hasn’t made one marked improvement in his game that he needs to in order to become anything that approximates even warranting a comparison to Wade.
how can you possibly complain with Charlie V at 7 mil/year and BG at 11/year.
Because they suck. Period. I have no idea how other teams signing sucky players makes it easier to stomach when one’s own team does it.
RIP and TAY become more attractive to others teams THE CLOSER WE GET TO FEBRUARY!
Unless they’re on the injured list.
but Stuckey had that 40 point game one time.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
Against Derrick Rose no less
I think its still unfair to claim that Stuckey hasn’t made any marked improvements to his game in his first 3 years. While statistically I completely agree, I’d argue that the fact that he was able to maintain the numbers in key statistical categories throughout his first 3 years shows an incredible ability to weather the storm so to speak. He’s been very consistent with his “mediocrity” as many would put it through his first 3 years despite constant change in personnel, coaching, no direction from management, and the injury bug last season.
So all that said, I still think all of y’all have sailed away from Stuckey harbor too soon. Me? I’m waiting for a nice ebb to the tide before my schooner sets sail…if ya know what I mean ;-)
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I’d say Stuckey has another year or maybe a little more. If he can’t develop a jumpshot or learn to pass in traffic, he’ll be an old dog, as it were.
completely agree
I love him as a person. He honestly reminds me a bit of what I think JoD was like as a player…so ultimately I really really really want him to succeed, but if he can’t make that leap to franchise PG or franchise player this year, then I think we’ll be better off just letting him go than trying to sign him to some kind of modest extension…
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I like the cut of your jib sir
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
by Skylar on Jul 23, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps that's why he is my favorite Piston right now.
He has been resilient, strong and quietly a fighter. Everything has been demanded of him and he has shown a willingness to do it all. Perhaps all he has been so far is a failure, but it has been a beautiful, poetic one.
Of all our players, he is the one i hope success the most.
Where in the world is Trent Plaisted?
by Kriz on Jul 23, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
If
It were based of how GM’s looked after this one past season then fine I can see why he is ranked 24th. BUT, when you consider his body of work and Joe having had a team make 6 straight ECF with a title to boot there is no way he is in the bottom half!
For all of you with short memories those six years consist of more time than the last two. Two bad seasons since he was hired in 2000 yeah lets hang the guy… idiots.
He has earned a bit more time. Only a season or two more, but he has earned it.
Favre, even your agent has had enough. The drunken grillmaster, Buzz Cook, is getting too old for this.
wha???
Ben Gordon and Charile V suck? period? I can’t understand comments made on this blog sometime. It seems everyone is still spoiled from the glory days.
Larry Bird is actually smart
After this season he’ll have danny granger, paul george, roy hibbert, a couple of other young playes, probably another lottery pick, and then $33 Million in cap space. Given that that money gets to get spent on the newer, and probably cheaper, CBA agreement, Larry Bird is going to come out of this with a SICK team.
I agree with the ranking.
He’ll never live down the ‘03 draft. And his other drafts haven’t exactly been great either.
I didn't realize GMs were judged solely on drafting.
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 25, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
save for prince
dude didn’t draft his way to a championship. mike payne agrees with terrence j. lynch, and rec’s you because that’s just what motherfuckers do.
witty signature
But I am not nor ever will be doing any motherfucking.
What do I do, Mike Payne?
WHAT DO I DOOOOOOOOOOO!?!?
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 26, 2010 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, that's a lie.
I’ve just temporarily sworn off women after having my mother fucking heart broken. Perhaps someday that could change.
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 26, 2010 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not the only thing
It’s only the most important.
Is it?
Lakers most important player over the past decade include:
Shaq (free agency)
Kobe (traded on draft day)
Gasol (trade)
A great draft without the proper trades and signings doesn’t guarantee anything (Cleveland and Orlando come to mind). You need to do reasonably well in all three. And it’s hard to put a higher importance on one when you see how many teams don’t truly compete until they make that big trade/signing. Draft Kobe Bryant is pointless if you don’t surround him with a great team. LeBron is living proof that making the best pick ever can still blow up.
It’s the circle of life, everything depends on one another, and without hitting the mark on all three you’re not going far.
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 26, 2010 3:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Look at Prada's list
Pat Riley was #1, and why? Because of who he signed this offseason.
by handsomerob1 on Jul 26, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Motherfuck a broken heart, not women.
There’s over six billion people on this planet, if you wanted to find another good woman you could do so. It might be a year or two, or it might be next week. Take time to heal, but don’t despair.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
by Skylar on Jul 26, 2010 10:36 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Not to turn this into DBB meets Dr. Phil here.
But here’s a basic summary:
A majority of male relationships went and ended well.
A majority of female relationships went and ended poorly, with the last one being the heart breaking one.
Now, you’re right that if I looked hard enough, maaaaaaaaaybe I could find another woman, but if I’m very happy in most of my male relationships, why bother? Being with women caused me too many headaches and one very drama-filled break-up. So while I never say never, I will say highly unlikely.
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 26, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Seems reasonable. I’m doing a somewhat similar approach. I ended an awful relationship about 6 months ago and I’m not looking for another one. I’m just focusing on enjoying being single right now. Frankly, this summer has been awesome because of that.
At some point down the line, I may start looking again. But it is awfully freeing not worrying about impressing members of the opposite sex. I’ll just wait for the women to come to me, as they always never have.
With me, the indifferent I am to them, the more likely they are to step to me.
In addition, I swear- “When it rains, it pours” applies to female suitresses. I will go single for months and then all of a sudden 4 ladies want a piece and I must choose (I really only go for monogamy). It’s damn strange.
I just got out of a near 2 year relationship with talk of kids & marriage, and it ended real real bad. I went a matter of months single and shutting every girl down- but I just met one, and she’s too fantastic to pass up. I consider her my girl because she is moral, very kind, appreciative, and beautiful. I didn’t wanna get a new girl yet but I didn’t have a choice, she really got me.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
by Skylar on Jul 26, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
fucking
awesome, MFSKY. That’s awesome news man :) That sounds a lot like what happened to me after my last shitty breakup… and now I’m engaged. Good for you brother.
witty signature
I love you buddy. Thanks for the support.
I just found myself with this broad a week ago. It’s been a great week. I hope everybody meets or has a person so magnetic.
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
Sounds awesome.
I met mine. Get to see her every morning, evening, and night. It’s a beautiful thing.
by brgulker on Jul 26, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'll join in!
And linger on way too long.
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 26, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
What a bunch of...
girls.
Where in the world is Trent Plaisted?
by Kriz on Jul 26, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
congrats sky!
you’ll have to re-evaluate her when Pistons games come on in a few months, yeah?
Detroit Bad Boys- SB Nation's Detroit Pistons Blog
Twitter
by Packey on Jul 27, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
haha, thanks buddy
She’s not a basketball fan but I’ll try to attempt a conversion of sorts. What red-blooded young lady wouldn’t wanna watch Jonas Jerebko job around and sweat?
"Let's go out and play like we're Chicago on NBA Jam." - Rasheed Wallace
It's The Universe, Baby!
You know, law of attraction, all that jazz.
by V. on Jul 30, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Word up.
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Jul 26, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
SRSLY.
How can we get helpful lady advice on this blog when Detroit Bad Boys is filled with only homos, jackasses, and non-sports fans?
by Biz Markie Moon on Jul 29, 2010 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Non-Heterosexuals Being Out The Babes
You know, “safe” and all of that. ask Ms. Kriz if you don’t believe me.
by V. on Jul 30, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Bring Out...
sorry, I’m losing my wrestling match with the keyboard today…
by V. on Jul 30, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
get an ergonomic keyboard?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823109148&cm_re=microsoft_ergonomic-23-109-148-Product
that’s what I use (got it 3 years) ago; by far the best keyboard I’ve ever used, and it’s relatively cheap to boot
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Jul 31, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
homos
maybe he just created a spelling error, and possibly meant to type
HOMIES
or
HAMAS
You guys are all a bunch of bandwagon ass cats. Ass cats I tell you!!!
My Blog
by brgulker on Jul 27, 2010 12:07 PM PDT
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Hill is a Suns of Phoenix now, he has little desire to become a Piston again. He even said as much, and it’s for the same reason Ben Wallace switched numbers. Neither of them are “The same guy I was” during their first campaigns in Detroit.
You guys are all a bunch of bandwagon ass cats. Ass cats I tell you!!!
My Blog
by brgulker on Jul 27, 2010 12:07 PM PDT
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