Four Team Trade To Send Darren Collison To Pacers?
In the proposed deal, the Houston Rocketswill send Trevor Ariza to the New Orleans Hornets. The Hornets will send Darren Collison and James Posey to the Indiana Pacers. The Pacers will send Troy Murphy to the New Jersey Nets. And the Nets will send Courtney Lee to the Rockets.
almost 2 years ago
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It's like they're trying mess with Paul
“You want a trade? How bout I trade away our future and a bad contract for a 1 dimensional wing, with a LONGER contract? You like that? Go cry to your Marketing Company.”
nobody wins according to ESPN trade machine!
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by Packey on Aug 11, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
what the hell
All it took was a good defender and salary relief to get Collison? I would have been willing to trade Stuckey, Monroe and Tay for Collison and Okafor
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 11, 2010 1:58 PM EDT reply actions
This whole trade is just frustrating
We could have given New Oleans much more for Collison that a bench player like Ariza. Sure he’s young, but that likely won’t matter very soon. Collison would apparently be a huge addition for the Pistons. I want to call up the New Orleans management right now and explain it to them. Their team is now on the doorstep to the Abyss and this vain attempt to satisfy Paul and compete for a title now is likely going to backfire badly. What are they thinking? Long term or short? Good grief! I wish we could find a way to get Tayshaun involved in that trade, it’s a four team trade for goodness sakes. Maybe Hermann will come back and hold me in his enormous hands and tell me everything will be alright.
To experience the consequences of my own choices. This is why I live
In other news
a team of Darren Collison, Danny Granger, Roy Hibbert plus nearly $30,000,000 in expiring salary (not counting the now traded Murphy) can pretty much keep us out of the top 3 in the central for the foreseeable future. Not to mention the fact that we were already 5 games behind them before this trade. Ouch.
witty signature
I agree
He’s basically Bill Laimbeer minus the attitude or defense.
Career wise, Laimbeer is only slightly ahead
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 11, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
The attitude and defense WAS Laimbeer, though. Laimbeer is one of those players that we will never be able to accurately compare to others because very little of what he brought to the team is actually a recordable stat.
by Apocalyptic0n3 on Aug 11, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
doesn't mean Murphy is underrated though
Laimbeer should be in the HOF, but he isn’t because many of the voters hate him as a person. Murphy isn’t that caliber of player as he doesn’t make his team just that much better via leadership and defense, but he still is a quality player and much better than any big we currently have (save for perhaps Monroe)
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 11, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
*isn't, not is
stupid typos
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 11, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Anytime you lose a PF who averages more than a double double and can also kill the opponent from range, you’re gonna feel it.
I think Hibbert’s got some upside, but he’s not there yet. Unless Hansbrough is a lot better than he appears to be at this point, I think Indiana is actually hurt in the short term as a result of this move. They’ll have lots of money to spend soon, though.
The good thing is that Indiana doesn't seem to have a timetable to be good.
Where in the world is Trent Plaisted?
agreed
they’ve got a killer core, $30M in expirings and 3 draft picks in 2011. The good will come to them without much effort.
witty signature
Who on earth will sign there, though?
The flexibility will be useful to them, but it’s not like they’re getting anything above mid-tier free agents to come there.
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Aug 12, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally, I don’t buy the whole “free agents won’t come here” BS— money talks. Nor do I think expiring deals are only good for cap space. I think they’re good for trading to teams with cap issues for talent.
witty signature
Good point
I do think Indiana would have to overpay to get free agents, though.
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Aug 12, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it's relavent
money does talk, so you end up overpaying to get a free agent to come here which in turn makes you less financially capable to sign others to help the team.
Anytime you lose a PF who averages more than a double double and can also kill the opponent from range, you’re gonna feel it.
It sure doesn’t sting when you add a PG who is likely to average more than a double double. Murphy may have had range (didn’t we argue about that not being important to you?) and rebounding, but he really didn’t contribute much by way of scoring or defense.
witty signature
It sure doesn’t sting when you add a PG who is likely to average more than a double double.
My point was about replacing Murphy with Hansbrough, which is valid regardless of how much potential their PG has. Murphy’s an efficient scorer who rebounds very well. Hansbrough isn’t either of those things. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think you’re arguing DC will average 10 boards.
(didn’t we argue about that not being important to you?)
Yeah, my point was that I prefer “stretch fours” when and only when their ability to shoot is supplemental to their ability to do other things that PFs normally do well. I.e., I don’t give a rat’s behind how good Charlie can shoot 3s if he’s disinterested in rebounding and playing interior team and individual defense.
but he really didn’t contribute much by way of scoring or defense
Murphy didn’t score much? Color me confused. I’m not saying 14.6 is all star caliber or anything, but he was the 2nd leading scorer on his team. As to his defensive ability, well, I know he doesn’t look like much on that end (at least as I’ve seen him play), but the numbers don’t agree with your assessment.
My point was about replacing Murphy with Hansbrough, which is valid regardless of how much potential their PG has.
Murphy expires next summer. This was an inevitable replacement, so if this “hurts” Indiana as you’ve said, it takes that “pain” a year early in exchange for Darren F-ing Collison.
Murphy didn’t score much? Color me confused. I’m not saying 14.6 is all star caliber or anything, but he was the 2nd leading scorer on his team.
I mean to say that Murphy didn’t contribute much to be missed in terms of scoring. His rebounding is remarkable, his scoring won’t be missed as much in the context of this roster. Collison/Granger/Hibbert should be a lock to outscore Granger/Hibbert/Murphy in 2011. Indiana had virtually nothing by way of backcourt scoring in 2009-10, and Collison stands to bring a lot more than they’ll lose from Murphy— not to mention Collison’s impact on Hibbert and Granger.
witty signature
ask roll the dyess
He seems to be creating them every third afternoon
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 11, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Find me my last 4 team trade sir.
Also, if NO is super serial about making CP3 happy and Turner starts stepping on Iggy’s toes in Philly, maybe we can help mediate a trade:
Detroit gets: Okafor
New Orleans gets: Iggy
Philly gets: Prince, Thornton, and our 2011 first round pick
by Roll The Dyess on Aug 11, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn, sucks to miss out on Collison.
I gotta believe we had a better package for him and Joe was even looking for a point guard upgrade.
Because I'm the Lynch... and I'm awwwesome!
by Terrence J. Lynch on Aug 11, 2010 4:53 PM EDT reply actions
you know guys
I’m still waiting on that guaranteed trade we were told about
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 11, 2010 4:59 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
it's almost evening here
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 11, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
To all Darren Collison slurpers:
You’ve convinced everyone he’s going to be the shit one day, but how good is your analysis. I’m not disputing that he won’t, but some may disagree about his defensive. Here’s Ryan Schwan of Hornets247 on Collison.
that guy clearly didn't do his homework
Look at the scouting report I made, I made a table that showed he actually excelled at guarding the best point guards in the league. He may be 6’0", but it’s not like he’s playing SG like AI or Gordon, and when the sizes are close enough, defense becomes less about having a physical advantage than it does about anticipation and effort.
As for improvising beyond the pick and roll, does it matter? That’s like telling Ben Wallace, “okay, you’re the best shotblocker in the past decade, but now we’ve decided that we want you to guard perimeter players on defense and play the high post on offense.” In the NBA if you have one outstanding skill, you will be successful. Stuckey is the epitome of having many skills, but not truly excelling at any of them. So long as Collison racks up 20, 10 seasons shooting a true shooting percentage of 57%, I don’t think there’s a single team in the league that wouldn’t want him.
IMO, his biggest weakness is that he has to play at a really fast pace to be at that level of effectiveness, which won’t really matter that much since Indy is a running team anyways. However I don’t think he’ll be truly at CP3’s level until he can learn how to run a half court offense and still put up the same numbers; but even still, his rookie starting numbers were a lot better than Paul’s.
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 12, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Collison is not going to be a 20-10 point guard
The only guys EVER to do that are Chris Paul, Isaiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, and Michael Adams (whoever that is). It practically never happens.
And you’re out of your mind if you think Collison will EVER reach CP3’s level. Collison is a very good young guard, but he’ll be lucky if he’s ever a top 10 point guard in this league.
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Aug 12, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
look at the numbers
They suggest otherwise.
He had a streak of 20 games or so where he averaged 20, 10 off 50+% shooting. Given a few years experience, there is no reason to doubt he can’t put up similar numbers on a more consistent basis.
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 12, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's a reason to doubt it
small sample size
by Colin M on Aug 12, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
it's one year
But he did start a fair amount of games, and showed consistent improvement.
The questions I have aren’t about his own ability, but rather how other teams react to him and adapt. So I guess sample size would be included in that grey area, but certainly he had an outstanding rookie season that was better than CP3’s (at least statistically speaking as a starter).
Here are their rookie numbers:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?playerId=2779&sYear=2006&sType=4
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?playerId=3973
If you look at the starting section, Collison actually started for about half the season (37 games), it wasn’t just a once a week thing like with Stuckey. As I mentioned before, DC had a better rookie campaign than CP3, scoring about 3 more points and getting 1.5 more assists – and significantly higher shooting percentages.
The talent is there, at the least he’ll be a Marbury type guard because of his scoring ability. But I think he can be a legit 20, 10 guy, just wait until he torches us 4 times a year.
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 12, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he's good
But I don’t know if I share your enthusiasm about Collison. His win shares weren’t particularly impressive last year, and while I certainly don’t think that makes him a bad or even average player, you’re going WAY out on a limb saying he’s going to be a 20/10 guy. Deron Williams has never been 20/10 guy, nor has Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Bob Cousy, etc. It’s a really, really rare thing, and I just don’t think you’re appreciating that.
It’d be like if I said(and this is a much more common thing) I thought Stephen Curry would consistently score 30 ppg game based on the last two months of this past season. It’s not out of the realm of possibility that Curry could, maybe one season, score 30 ppg — he has all the tools to do it — but it’s just an absurd assertion to make. If you were saying you thought Collison would be a top 10-15 point guard and would put up, say, 15-18 ppg and 7-9 apg, I wouldn’t be criticizing you, but 20/10 is WAY out there.
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Aug 12, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
fine doesn't have to be exactly 20, 10
I’m just saying he is very capable of putting up similar numbers. I mean would you really complain if your point guard gave you 21 and 9 instead of 20 and 10?
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 12, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Collison had a good rookie year, but I agree with Thom that he’s nowhere near Paul.
The tricky part is that Collison’s scoring and assist numbers are very similar to Paul’s, but the big difference comes in their possession related stats – rebounds, steals and turnovers. In Paul’s rookie year he was already putting up superstar level numbers in those areas.
Looking at their rookie years side by side Paul’s advanced stats dwarf Collison’s.
I wish basketball reference had a split option
Because I think it’s only fair to compare the starting numbers. Collison was a completely different player coming off the bench, a much worse one at that.
The biggest issue with Darren seems to be the turnovers. Even though he racked up tons of assists, he also had a ton of turnovers, but I would imagine that is something remedied by time and experience
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 12, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
is there an advanced section?
I only see the same general stuff ESPN has
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 12, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess we'll have to wait for conformation
I see no reason for DC not to start in Indy, they’ve needed a good point guard for years. If they could have kept Murphy, I’m willing to bet Collison would have been able to get at least 9 assists again. I’m not sure how much Grainger will help in that department as he creates his own shot, but is also a very good spot up shooter
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 13, 2010 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions
He may not have done a lot of homework
But he did see him play every game.
by Roll The Dyess on Aug 12, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
does that matter though?
If you watched Stuckey all the time without reading the numbers, one would think he’s primed to be a star based off his size and ability to drive to the rim. Except once you look at the numbers, you realize he’s terribly inefficient and does a bad job of setting up teammates.
If what Collison does is effective on both ends of the court, who cares if it doesn’t look pretty? Tim Duncan has a snoozefest of a playing style, and yet I would trade our entire time minus Monroe and Big Ben to get him even at this stage.
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 12, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Strangely enough, for me the inverse is true about Stuckey. I watched pretty much every game last season, and if you asked me how he did last year I’d probably guess he averaged about 10 ppg with 1 assist and 2 boards, and lots and lots of turnovers and a low FG%. Once I look at the numbers I see he actually averaged 16 ppg, almost 4 boards, and almost 5 assists with 2 TO’s and 40% from the field (which isn’t lighting it up, but it seemed like he bricked or got blocked on almost every attempt last year). He’s actually doing a better than I thought based off what I saw.
by garrettelliott on Aug 12, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah same here GE
stuckeys stat lines always confounded me. i felt like i missed the 5 & 6 quarters when all those ugly ass double clutch shot put lookin shots fell into the basket.
New Orleans
I’m surprised they traded Darren Collison just for Trevor Ariza. You got to think they would find someone with a better offer than that. This trade is basically telling Chris Paul that his team has no idea what their doing.
by Detroitsportsfan3 on Aug 12, 2010 10:11 AM EDT reply actions
agreed
I thought for sure either they would Collison in the occasional 3 guard lineup to allow CP3 to fully take advantage of his scoring abilities (akin to Joe and Isiah) or trade him for a very promising big man. But instead they sought salary relief from Posey, whose deal was close to expiring anyways
"Don’t really know shit about White other than he is a colon of Stuckey" - das SmittyJ
And here I thought I knew White like the palm of my hand
by bearded thundar on Aug 12, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm probably the only one who thinks this
But I don’t think it’s a super terrible trade for NO. I definitely agree they could’ve gotten more for Collison, but Ariza’s much better than any SF Paul has played with up to this point, and he basically gives them an improved version of what they thought they were getting with Posey. A starting lineup of Paul-Thornton-Ariza-West-Okafor is pretty damn good, and I think the Hornets will surprise people this year — mainly because Paul is healthy, but they’re a definite improvement over their teams of the last two years.
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Aug 12, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Only if last year in Houston was a fluke. Ariza was a major disappointment last season. If he returns to form, I would agree that they’ve got a puncher’s chance next season.
I do think it's a fluke, though
Especially when you put him in New Orleans. Ariza’s usage isn’t going to be that high ever again, and he certainly won’t take as many shots. When you put him on a team like the Hornets that has a top 5 player like Paul, a dead-eye shooter in Thornton, and a very solid front court with West and Okafor, Ariza fits in sort of perfectly as the defense, slashing, and corner 3 guy he was in LA.
And with Paul setting him up over, say, Aaron Brooks or Derek Fisher, I’d say his efficiency kind of has to go up. He’s going to be getting easier shots. I predict something like a 13-6-3 season with 1.5-2 steals per game, a shooting percentage in the 45-48% range, and a 3 point percentage of 33-35%. That’s a very nice player to have for the MLE.
"Detroit Bad Boys is full of HOMOS ,JACKASSES and NON-sports fans."
-ralphgoblue/thunder_god08
by Thom_not_Tom on Aug 12, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you. I think he was used improperly in Houston. I think Ariza is an exception role player who helps his teams by being so. Houston simply asked waaaay too much.
I dont care
Ariza is still living off the hype he garnered from having a nice little stretch with the Lakers where he filled a very small niche within the framework of Phil Jacksons scheme. He has been in the league for over 5 years and finally achieved starters minutes only to flounder and within the last two seasons has been cast off from teams with respectable talent evaluation skills because he wasn’t a part of their long term plans. He goes to New Orleans as a last ditch hope to replace an aging Peja Stojakavic who’s numbers Ariza has never even sniffed.
Baffled’d
To experience the consequences of my own choices. This is why I live
the silver lining
If you like dunks, if Chris Paul is 100% healthy agian, Ariza should get to reinstall the alley oop into the Hornets offense.
To experience the consequences of my own choices. This is why I live
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