Pistons close out preseason as winners, 90-89
by Packey on Dec 21, 2011 2:06 AM EST
in Detroit Pistons Recaps
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PrintThe Pistons closed out the meaningless preseason with a meaningless 90-89 win over the meaningless Cavs. So long meaningless basketball. Did I mention that the preseason doesn't mean anything?
Let's get into it anyway.
Detroit got out to a quick start with Brandon Knight (1), Austin Daye (2), Tayshaun Prince (3), Jonas Jerebko (4), and Greg Monroe (5) starting. They were 6-for-10 shooting and had a 18-8 lead in the first 5:25. Daye had 10 points on 3-for-4 shooting, Jerebko had six points, Monroe had four rebounds, and Knight had two assists (and no turnovers). That's probably the best five-plus minutes you'll see from the Pistons this season.
It was downhill from there until the fourth quarter, though. Knight, Monroe, Will Bynum, and Stuckey all turned the ball over in the final six minutes of the first. The team finished with 30 points, but it took a very sloppy Joe D final 12 points to get there.
The Pistons then managed only 32 points in the second and third quarters on 9-for-31 shooting. The Cavs, who were once down by 10, all of a sudden led 58-46 with a little under eight minutes left in the third.
But the fourth quarter Pistons made a comeback. After two Bynum turnovers started the quarter in similar fashion to the third quarter, Knight went on a little 7-0 run on his own to cut the score to one with nine minutes left in the game. The Pistons kept it close enough the rest of the way for them to have a shot at winning it in the final minute.
In that final minute, Monroe hit a pair of free throws and Bynum had a nice put back layup after a Monroe miss with eight seconds left to keep it a one-point deficit. On the ensuing inbounds play after a timeout, Knight made a nice play to force a turnover, allowing for Damien Wilkins to come up with a steal and get it to Bynum, who ultimately set up Daye to draw a foul and get to the line for two freebies that gave the Pistons a one-point lead with three seconds left.
A wide open Luke Harangody miss later and the Pistons had their first and last win of the preseason.
Now, it's time to get real.
- The main source of discussion is rookie guard Brandon Knight. Two games vs. the Cavs in the preseason after a lockout is probably the lousiest barometer ever, but I think Kriz put it best in the game thread (I can't link to it because the game thread is broken for some reason) -- there's been more to like than dislike.
- Knight averaged 25 minutes, 8 points (on 5-for-18 shooting), 5.5 assists (5 turnovers), 3 rebounds, and 1.5 steals in the two games. That's not going to please too many, but he passed the eye test in my opinion. The offense flowed best when he was handling the rock (it showed in his team-leading +13) and it was a breath of fresh air to see a real live pass-first guard running things. Of course, there are going to be hiccups along the way, as should be expected. For instance, in the first three minutes of the third quarter on Tuesday night, Knight turned it over FOUR times! (But that's an anomaly -- even for nervous-excited, 20-year-old rookies. Frank credited his 'instant amnesia.')
- No. 1 overall pick Kyrie Irving averaged 26 minutes, 16 points (on 9-for-26 shooting), 3 assists (2.5 turnovers), 4 rebounds, and 2 steals in the two games.
- Another strong game from Monroe: 12 points (on 3-for-6 shooting; 6-for-6 from the line), 7 rebounds, 2 steals, and 1 turnover.
- Jerebko had 11 points and 7 rebounds, but he was just 4-for-12 shooting and he fouled out again. He played 42 minutes and had 12 fouls in the two games.
- BEN WALLACE: 10 minutes, 2 points, 2 blocked shots, and 4 rebounds. He's still got it -- gray hairs, probation and all.
- Stuckey made his preseason debut and continued to show off his ability to get to the line (10-for-10), but he was 2-for-8 shooting.
- HEY! ... NUMNUMNUMNUM
- Second straight strong preseason from Austin Daye. We'll believe it when we see it in the regular season, but the potential is there. I did enjoy his SEVEN blocks in two games, though.
- 21 turnovers in one game is too many.
- Personal DNPs for Charlie Villanueva and Ben Gordon. I didn't even notice until Blaha said something a few minutes into the game ... I didn't miss them, but KooLainglois points out that the 2nd unit could've used their "scoring."
- I know this was a lot for just a meaningless preseason game, but I need to tune up for the regular season, too. I don't think the Pistons are going to win many games, but I'm pretty excited for the season -- more excited than I've been in years. A lot of that has to do with the crew here at DBB, but this team should be more enjoyable to follow than the last couple years. First game is Monday, Dec. 26 at Indiana. Happy, safest Holidays, everyone. (If you're a Lions fan and you'll be at Saturday's playoff clinching game, hit me up in email - You, me, tailgate, beers, buzzed, wings, shots, drunk, waitresses hot, football Lions/Chargers, slaughter.
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For Some Reason
I can’t access the pregame thread anymore. Everything else, but not the pregame thread. What’s up with that?
This is DBB, and this is what we do.
Hey Mike
I also went to the ballet last weekend with my girlfriend. I assume you saw The Nutcracker as well? I had a really good time, actually.
yessir I did :)
I didn’t enjoy it so much, I had trouble staying awake before and after the intermission. The thing I was most excited about is that the score of the Nutcracker is actually really awesome, and I was excited for a pit orchestra. No dice, they just played back a recording of it over the PA.
Next year, I will find one with a pit orchestra, and we shall both take our ladies— and not tell DBB a thing about it.
Go check out a musical, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised at how well done they are. By far, my favorite one was seeing Wicked in broadway
Without a doubt, squats are a cure for everything.
by bearded thundar on Dec 21, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Musicals are awesome...ballets, to me, are nothing like a musical
To me it goes:
Musical >>>>> Ballet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
I generally hate musicals, it tries to do to much.
Musicals is something that you just throw in a frying pan and mix it up with another something and throw something on top of that and then fry it up and put in a tortilla and put it in microwave, heat it up, give it to you and expect it to taste good.
You know?
If y’all don’t know what I’m talking about then you can’t cook and this doesn’t concern you."
WWGMD?
by Kriz on Dec 21, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Without a doubt, squats are a cure for everything.
by bearded thundar on Dec 21, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
I went to the showing in Grand Rapids and they had a pit orchestra, made up of Grand Rapids Symphony players. The music was fantastic and that helped a lot. I liked the first act better than the second, mostly because there was more action in the first.
sounds like you had the better go of it, Birdy. I’m taking her to the symphony in April (I’d go sooner, but nothing really exciting is coming through) and I know I’ll love that, but not sure she will as much as she did the ballet.
I’m going to the Symphony in February. They’re doing the music of Lord of the Rings, with a full choir, while the movie is playing on a huge screen. They’ve done it the past two years, so now it’s Return of the King to finish the trilogy.
by Birdman84 on Dec 21, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
as a LOTR geek
that sounds fucking awesome. I’ll be seeing Brahms in April. They’re one number off from my favorite Brahms symphony, but I supposed No. 4 will do okay. This is the one I really want to be there for:
I saw the Toronto Symphony Orchestra perform selections from all 3 LoTR movies a few years ago and it was INCREDIBLE. My wife and I still talk about it to this day and get excited about it. We also saw Star Wars, and Anthony Daniels narrated the story inbetween songs. It was really cool.
by garrettelliott on Dec 21, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
I loved seeing the first two movies on a huge screen with a live orchestra. I am super excited about seeing the last one.
Squeals! It looks soooo good!
Really though, Jackson cheated – this was Tolkien’s meant as a children’s story and he turned it super cool/dark.
/Orinotherwordshemightabeatthebook
I recently met the dude who does all the sound effects for these.
And the girl that does all the creature/character animation. Those are some really crazy jobs to have. Sound effects dude is constantly recording random sounds around the house and going to the zoo and recording lions and mixing them with walrus roars to make dragon sounds. F**king sweet. Non-Important-Spoiler: Freddie Kruger’s nails squealing sound sampled from the rusty ironing board in a hotel room.
What's a hundred million between friends? Make a deal and let's get on with it.
by BandWagonerPaysTheDues on Dec 22, 2011 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
my wife has been dying to get me to take her to Nutcracker for 3 years
I always tell her the Pistons are playing and I can’t. Now I can’t use that argument and feel good about myself – thanks a lot, Mike!
(not entirely serious … I don’t blame it on the Pistons, I blame it on not wanting to see the Nutcracker, but I did buy her and her sister tickets this year so I’m not the WORST husband in the world)
My wife finally gave up on that.
Her and her friend bought their own tickets and went while I stayed at home.
All the time relaxed.
The foundation of any strong relationship.
I wrote a book about time travel. Buy it and/or die. http://www.thetimetravelguide.com
Nah, I was just kidding
I actually think that couples doing things separately and being okay with that tend to have a stronger foundation.
I’m with these guys, though. The Nutcracker is truth.
I wrote a book about time travel. Buy it and/or die. http://www.thetimetravelguide.com
agreed on the sleepyness around the intermission
nothing that some canadian and cola couldn’t fix.
by C$ on Dec 21, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds Like An Afternoon Performance
Doesn’t the DSO do Nutcracker every year? I know you’re not in Detroit, but here’s your reason to come back.
This is DBB, and this is what we do.
by V. on Dec 21, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
"sloppy Joe D"
“Some times I’ll eat Manwich Sloppy Joe sauce right out the can, I don’t even heat it up.”
Does anyone else call them "taverns?"
I’ll bet Joe fills those Gatorade jugs with extra oily sloppy Joe meat for easy chuggin’.
by TDP on Dec 21, 2011 2:26 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
I firsst thought it
“Sometimes I’ll eat Manwich Sauce right on the can”, which made it even funnier (altho quite disturbing)
by Frankdog on Dec 21, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Got that new SB Nation Android app
Can’t reply, but other than that it seems to be pretty big boobies.
by TDP on Dec 21, 2011 2:19 AM EST via Android app reply actions
Wait. Figured out how to reply...
This certainly is BIG boobies now. QQ
by TDP on Dec 21, 2011 2:21 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
still waiting for the Windows Phone version.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
by The Boourns on Dec 21, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree that’s it’s nice. Still a little buggy in terms of replies vs. new comments though. Coupled with the voice recognition in Ice Cream Sandwich, I have no need for a computer during games.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Yeah, got it on launch date.
Stole my wife’s upgrade, gave her the Thunderbolt, and now I’m running the Nexus.
Awesome is a great description.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
I should rephrase that.
She gave me her upgrade for Christmas, technically.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Feedback
I’m contemplating picking one up after work either today or tomorrow. What do you think?
I’ve read some bad things about the reception and ring volume. It’s plastic and light apparently. Heard some complaints about the battery cover.
My dilemma is I use my phone for a hotspot quite a bit. I don’t want to pay a carrier fee for this. iphone doesn’t present you with any options whereas droid has ways of hiding usage.
So with the iphone I’m aware of what i’m getting. A sturdy sound product with little customizability other than the overrated app store. I know it’s a good phone though is the issue. With the Nexus I’m not so sure I’m paying for a quality product, and I’m paying more for it. But I’m sure regardless of quality i can get it to do what i want, reception being the main concern.
epinions?
I’m contemplating picking one up after work either today or tomorrow. What do you think?
DO IT MCFLIES!!!
I’ve read some bad things about the reception and ring volume. It’s plastic and light apparently. Heard some complaints about the battery cover.
I get better reception (in terms of call quality and data actually working) than with my OG Droid or Thunderbolt. What’s throwing people is that the actual digital bars in the notification tray don’t work the same way. In other words, the software is reporting the signal strength differently, and that’s confusing people.
I don’t know what’s wrong with the battery cover? I purchased the extended battery (it adds a whopping 1 milometer of thickness) and love it. I get a full day on 4G, no problem.
It is plastic. It’s very light. I see both of those things as positives. I don’t get the sudden aversion to plastic phones. Feels like unnecessary reaction to the iPhone, if you ask me.
It feels very study, and it fits comfortably in the hand.
My dilemma is I use my phone for a hotspot quite a bit. I don’t want to pay a carrier fee for this. iphone doesn’t present you with any options whereas droid has ways of hiding usage.
Android Wifi Tether is already working on rooted Galaxy Nexi. Rooting the Galaxy Nexus takes about 5 minutes. I’m going to do that this weekend.
And 4G hotspot? Yes, please. I get 10MB+ download speeds.
With the Nexus I’m not so sure I’m paying for a quality product, and I’m paying more for it. But I’m sure regardless of quality i can get it to do what i want, reception being the main concern.
I really don’t get why people think this phone isn’t made well. It’s plastic, yes, and plastic has been used in cell phones for years and years and years. The fact that it is plastic means it’s also very light. I find that to be a positive.
I can only speak for me, but my reception has been fantastic everywhere I go. From what I can gather, people are just misunderstanding what the digital bars are telling them.
epinions?
I have it. My brother has it. A good friend have it. We all are completely blown away by it. If it’s this or an iPhone, I’d go Nexus and never look back.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
thanks gulks!
i’m on it.
although i thought it already came rooted? isn’t that the appeal of developer phones like the nexus line? not that it’s hard to root a droid anyway.
No, it doesn’t come with superuser access. It comes with an unlocked bootloader. Just a few commands in the command line, and you’re rooted, though.
Sort of related — I’ve yet to see anyone do anything on an iPhone that I wished I could do. The only benefit I see is iTunes (if you use iTunes, which I don’t and never will) and a more polished experience (or alternatively, being told what you can and can’t do with your phone).
Ice Cream Sandwich is an amazing evolution for Android. I really enjoy using it. And it points to even better things down the road, IME.
I don’t see how you could possibly go wrong.
One more thing. The screen is amazingly beautiful. However, it’s a bit “warmer” than the LCD screens I was used to. At first, I found it odd, but I think it was just habit. Now, I find it weird to look at my wife’s “cooler” LCD on the TBolt.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
well, from experience i’ve noticed iphones to be more responsive, but i hear the new ICS clears all those concerns up. I’ve yet to play with one, which I will be doing in oh, about 2 hours.
one iphone. simple. app store. no customization. i mean it’s just simplistic, sturdy, and responsive. made for mass consumption.
many droids. which is good? which will stay in rotation? what brand? more complicated. after-market apps. customizable. changeable. adaptable. made for huge nerds but marketed to everyone.
plus, i’m not paying a carrier fee for hotspot. it’s not that i really considered an iphone, i just wasn’t sure that one of these new droids was truly worth investing in. you’ve sold me gulks.
many droids. which is good? which will stay in rotation? what brand? more complicated. after-market apps. customizable. changeable. adaptable. made for huge nerds but marketed to everyone.
For all of these reasons, I will only be purchasing Nexus devices moving forward (or at least will attempt to do so if Verizon continues to carry them).
If Verizon doesn’t, I’ll change carriers and/or buy one through Google that’s compatible.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Why?
I’ve always detested Apple’s approach and ecosystem. I can’t stand the stranglehold they force onto consumers, most of whom don’t even understand that they’re in one. Steve Jobs is the man who pioneered all of that.
My resentment for Jobs began long before he was even sick. I don’t think I can’t voice that now because he’s dead, especially because all of the crap he did that I passionately disagree with is likely to carry on beyond my lifetime.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Also, how does the camera on the nexus compare to the iPhone? The roommate just got the 4S and I must admit that shit is dope. Pictures are at least as good as stuff from most point and shoot cameras.
I think they’re better than most P&S cameras. It’s scary. My iPhone camera is DEFINITELY better than my first DSLR, and I shot weddings with that thing.
by garrettelliott on Dec 21, 2011 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
Werd.
I would prefer not to get an iPhone, but the camera is actually a big selling point for me. I don’t see myself buying an DSLR anytime soon so having a phone that would effectively do double duty as my camera would be pretty awesome. Thanks for the professional epinion.
And if you want to get crazy and have people give you funny looks, you could even use some of these babies:
http://photojojo.com/store/awesomeness/iphone-telephoto-lens/
by garrettelliott on Dec 21, 2011 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
The Nexus camera is middle of the road.
It’s the one thing they didn’t do top of the line, which is confusing. If a camera is a selling point, HTC does it better. So does Apple.
However, the built-in panorama is amazing with the Nexus. And it takes pics instantly – no shutter lag.
I will say, though, that the only time I don’t like the pic quality is when the pics are snapped in the dark. Daylight pictures are pretty nice.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Does it have a flash? My iPhone does and it works in a pinch, but day time photos are definitely where it’s at. There’s an app called camera+ that’s a lot better than the built-in camera app. It has a way faster shutter response and you can even spot meter pretty accurately for stuff like this in tricky lighting:
by garrettelliott on Dec 22, 2011 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
In other news
Rip Hamilton had 13 points, 4 rebounds and 6 assists in his Bulls debut.
DeMarcus Cousins was one turnover away from a double-double.
YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE LAST OF THE
CLEVELAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND
CAVALIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERS
I’LL GET YOU NEXT TIME, PAYNE. NEXT TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME.
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
The defenseless Huskies vs a Heisman Trophy winner. I smell shenanigans ahead!
A new Mike Brown era is about to begin.
by WaveOcean on Dec 21, 2011 3:03 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
8==============D
Does this qualify as texting a dick pic to DBB?
by Rob Rogacki on Dec 21, 2011 11:38 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
/raging dick'd
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
About Knight
I mean, it’s two games, against maybe the worst team in the league, I felt like he did fine.
Time will tell (why do I have this compulsion to type “NO SUGARCOAT”?).
/just Vpinion
This is DBB, and this is what we do.
I only managed to catch highlight film (had a final)
How bad were the turnovers? From the highlights he showed a clean stroke and a much better ability to get into the lane and kick out to an open man than anyone else on the roster
Without a doubt, squats are a cure for everything.
by bearded thundar on Dec 21, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
The ones that I saw looked like rookie mistakes
As he adjusts to the speed of the league, they should disappear.
by Rob Rogacki on Dec 21, 2011 11:31 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
I agree that Knight's stats didn't look too appealing
But you’re right, from what I’ve seen he just looks like the PG we need to be a pass first PG, rather than take it to the rim and be more of a isolation player.
Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand - Kurt Vonnegut
I'd be excited about Daye
Since he’s actually starting the season in his real position. With Tay blocking his way, I’m looking forward to plenty of per-36terbation this year.
OT: Really awesome how the league locked out the players (and fans) to offer a shortened, rushed, compacted season, which certainly will affect its quality, but is still charging $109 for League Pass Broadband. And no free trial to start the season, unlike in previous years. You know, just in case they didn’t make themselves clear.
I thought Daye was terrible for the most part. Started well and shot well but then he tried to pass and dribble. Haven’t actually looked at stats but feels like he was responsible for about half the turnovers.
Don’t mind Knights turnovers so much, rookie with no preseason, but Daye should be better.
I agree. Daye to me is the new Rip. I’m comfortable with him catching and shooting, but as soon as he puts the ball on the floor I start to get really nervous. He needs to watch video of Dirk and figure out what it is he does to keep the ball protected when he’s on the move. I see Austin get stripped and make bad passes too often.
That's what happens when you're 6'11" and play SG.
You have guys a half a foot shorter than you ripping the ball away since the dribble is the same height as their eyes. Oh, and he’s a terrible passer particularly when feeding the post. Basically, he sucks.
All the time relaxed.
i wouldn't say that
with Daye, i can live with it. he rebounds well. is blocking shots. and can shoot. he’s a pretty solid player, at least on the stat sheet. you’d think if you’re standing above the guy in front of you feeding the post wouldn’t be that difficult. but then he does make some backwards/sideways/one-hand/underhand passes that are well intentioned but go awry. too much street ball this summer perhaps.
i’m trying to hold off on any excitement here because i just don’t think he’ll be that involved once the season starts. once the full lineup is in we’ll get a better judge of it.
He did have some terrible to's
and compounded the mistakes by putting his head down and pouting. However, when he wasn’t trying to the pass the ball he played pretty well. He shot well in both games and filled up the box score with rebounds, blocks, and steals.
Personal DNPs for Charlie Villanueva and Ben Gordon
I read this as Tom Gores locked the two of them in a storage room with a broken pool cue and whoever walks out wasn’t going to get amnestied.
Welcome... to the Wallace-hood
by tads on Dec 21, 2011 9:00 AM EST reply actions 6 recs
Im almost wanting CV to be amnestied more
Than I want the Wings to trade Johnathan Ericsson for a bag of pucks
Datsyukian Deke, Detroit Red Wings Blog
Follow @cnsportsblogs
Also
Earl Barron waived by the Blazers. Wasn’t he on the Pistons’ radar last season at some point? Seven boards in 18.5 minutes in 2010-11.
Now our thoughts.
Brandon Knight has better PG instincts than anyone we’ve played at that position since the Chauncey trade. He makes really bad decisions, which result in a lot of TO’s, and he takes a lot of bad shots, which results in lots of misses.
On the one hand, this is sort of normal for young rookie guards. OTOH, he did nothing to alleviate my concerns about his ability to become an NBA level PG this preseason. I love his court vision and his ability to find open teammates, but I’m still worried.
The starting lineup that started last night should be the starting lineup, IMHE. That lineup is crazy long and will give the opposition fits on defense. If we have any shot at winning, we have to be bothersome on defense.
Stuckey did a good job of getting to the line, but not much else.
Isolayshaun looked like his usual self (derp).
I have missed Jonas’ energy and hustle. He looked rusty, but he was also forcing. He’s much better at creating shots when off the ball, not with it.
Monroe needs the ball more! I cannot stress enough how frustrating it was to watch our perimeter players squander away possession after possession last night, while moose gets 5 shots. Oh, and the post entry passing was god awful. That can only get better.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Where are the "lots of bad shots" you keep talking about?
He’s barely shooting.
Maybe he’s referring to shooting airball 3’s from behind a Monroe screen. That was a godawful shot. He had some drives where it looked like he was jumping w/o a plan.
follow me on twitter: @danieldresden
by dandresden on Dec 21, 2011 2:21 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
For all we know, Frank told Knight to look for his shot in that situation as a way to see how the defense reacts.
Its pre-season. I have 100% faith in Frank in screaming at Knight if he takes dumb shots.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
He's taken 19 shots.
And only made 5 of them. He took 9 last night, e.g., and Monroe took 5. He’s shooting almost as much as anyone else on the court. And yeah, Dan’s feeling me here in terms of getting in the air and just hoisting it.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
5 of 19 is 26%. He also averaged 5 turnovers per game.
In short, I can see Knight averaging 26 and 5, HOF type numbers.
On baseball blogs this thing called "small sample size" (SSS) comes up a lot.
DBB doesn’t seem to understand SSS, at least not when we’ve already got our position laid out. Shooting 26% over two games doesn’t make him a bad shooter. Kyrie shot like 32% the same two games and people over here are <3ing it.
I fully understand and believe that it’ll take most of the season to have any idea where Knight is headed. I am not saying 26 and 5. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think he might look like 11 ppg at 43%, 2.5 rpg, 5 apg, and 3 tos this year. Sure that’s not great, but I’ll take it. Know why? Because Austin Daye looks so much more valuable when Knight is his PG than when he plays with Bynum or Stuckey. They don’t get Daye the ball in a place he can score without having to handle it a bunch. Daye (or Gordon for that matter, scenario’s similar) could (and very well may be) our best scorer this year. He can put up points insanely quick if he gets the ball in advantageous spots. NONE of our other guards get either Daye or Gordon the ball in spots they can get clean looks.
Did anyone see the other night when Knight saw Daye to his left right when the crossed half court, dribbled right aggressively enough to start cheating the D toward that side of the court, then whipped it over to Daye for an easy 3 ball? It was fantastic. Smart basketball, great awareness, executed to perfection. Knight can shoot 26% on the season for all I care if he helps either Austin or Gordon (or both) put up 20+ shooting 50% like Daye is.
Lastly, I’m with Boourns. Frank will be all over Knight if the rook is just hoisting shots to the detriment of the team. It’s also Frank’s fault if we never see Greg get regular (10+ a night) touches in the paint. Honestly, I believe the reports that they’ve been heavily focused on D in camp so far. I think we’ll see how the O develops over the course of the year. Frank professed he was going to use Greg as a hub on offense. I’m hoping it shows up in the games. I’m also hoping he spends a whole practice going over post-entry passing.
you know I'm totally kidding, right?
I don’t even remotely expect the preseason to mean anything for Knight, just having fun is all.
+1
freyagg: trust, small sample size is not a novel concept. them’s was jokes up above.
though after admonishing people about drawing sweeping conclusions off small sample sizes you then wrote…
Because Austin Daye looks so much more valuable when Knight is his PG than when he plays with Bynum or Stuckey.
…after watching two preseason games. So, yeah.
@mike and Gabe
I get that there are jokes being bandied around. I know MFbeard’s HOF averages comment was a little hyperbolic. none the less, there is a lot of criticizing what Knight’s done so far based on the raw numbers of the two preseason games.
And brgulker, I’m not trying to call you out…just further the discussion. You’re one of the more frequent commenter on the skeptical side so your comments are available to work off of in response.
I guess what I really got into up there, and my major point (and I think this echoes the Boourns), is that it seems almost glaringly obvious that the offense functions better with Knight at the point than either Stuckey or Bynum. We have a trio of “scorers” on this team – Daye, Gordon, CV (not to mention Rip last year) – who are pretty horrible when they have to create, but at least relatively more valuable when they can shoot uncontested. All three of those guys have negative value when Stuckey, Bynum, or even Prince are caressing the basketball because their defense is so terrible.
Even more, our big men (including Greg at this stage) are pretty limited in their offensive skill sets too. They don’t have polished post games where you can just get them the ball in the post and count on them getting you important buckets. A guy that keeps his eyes open when he drives – even if he turns it over too much his rookie year – is going to make this team better than someone like Stuckey or Bynum. That’s what I see Knight doing.
So for me, it’s not even about how great Knight can be. It’s about the Pistons having a watchable offensive game. Last year was unbearable.
I guess what I really got into up there, and my major point (and I think this echoes the Boourns), is that it seems almost glaringly obvious that the offense functions better with Knight at the point than either Stuckey or Bynum.
My eyes are 100% open to seeing this and when I do, I’ll absolutely echo your sentiments, MFFreywagg. I only saw one preseason game and even if I saw both, there’s no way I’d be comfortable making that kind of statement given this fraction of a small, rushed and off-record sample size.
I disagree 100% on this one.
We have Knight’s freshman season, where he was a poor 2 point shooter and turnover prone. That’s not a full 82-game season, but it’s what we’ve got, and it’s large enough to draw a few conclusions.
I agree with you that it’s silly to project him based on 2 preseason games.
I don’t think it’s silly to say something like, “His two preseason games as a pro don’t do anything to indicate that he’s overcome his turnover and shooting problems yet.”
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
I guess it depends on how you define a PG...
and a big part of the definition is someone who can make his team mates better. Now based off pure observation, I think there are several key players on this team who seem to function better when Knight is PG on the floor.
Now I feel like if you are hoping to eventually develop a core group of players for any sort of playoff or championship run, an ability to function well together may be key.
Obviously there were players missing from the lineup who will be consistently on the floor with Knight and if he doesn’t seem to do well with them as well than I may readjust my opinion. But for now it appears that Knight is the best PG on this team in regards to his teammates. Whether or not his college downfalls still exist or not.
by madpoopz on Dec 22, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’ve said a few times I think Knight should start at PG.
My comment above was strictly about the “sample size” argument, not really about the merits of any player or lineup.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Yeah.
To be fair, I have taken note of your frequent comments that he should start as well. I guess most of us aren’t really that far apart. This really does seem mostly like a half-full/half-empty discussion other than a straggler here and a straggler there. Everyone seems ok with seeing what happens with Knight getting a lot of minutes. It’s certainly not going to hurt anything, seeing as we’re at the bottom (except in JoeD’s stupid-face eyes).
Again...
For a rookie with only 2 games of opportunity to get used to how his offense will be guarded in the NBA (and unfortunately playing a lot of those minutes against another rookie), I have no problem with him shooting more than Moose.
If Frank allows it to continue in the regular season, that’s another question all together, but 2 games this year vs. what 10 pre-season games in a normal year + 5 summer league games + 4-8 weeks of training with the team…yeah, Knight should have been taking most of the shots in the pre-season.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
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i'm just afraid
he’s going to be brandon jenningsesque. basically, he’ll look the part, but really he’ll just suck.
yeah, I hear that.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
Hopefully he'll go off for 50 early on
so that the organization can delude itself into thinking it should “build around him” going forward.
I wrote a book about time travel. Buy it and/or die. http://www.thetimetravelguide.com
Ideally against Kyrie Irving...
a la Stuckey going off against Derrick Rose a couple seasons back.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
No offense, but I’m glad you’re not coaching the Pistons. If Knight’s not getting it drilled into his head early and often that Moose is the centerpiece of the offense, then it’s being done wrong.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Also, bad shots are bad shots. I was being called out for criticizing his shot selection. Do you disagree on that point? Dude’s taken some really dumb shots, yea or nay?
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Not criticizing that...but you're naive to think that Frank would just say,
“Listen, I realize you’re 19 years old and have a ton of growth to do, but instead of taking these 2 meaningless games to start getting your feet wet in the NBA, I just want you to defer to Greg on every play”. What kind of coaching is that? And is that really how we expect Knight to play for us? Sure we want a point guard that actually distributes, but Knight is still supposed to be a “prolific scorer.” By telling him to just give the ball to Moose, you’re effectively asking him to play with only half his skillset…you might as well tell him to only dribble with one hand all game.
Ya know the easiest way for Frank to explain to Knight what a terrible shot is? Its letting him take a few that he can go back to the gametape on and call him out on it. I’d much rather Frank have that gametape at his disposal from the get-go because of how he played in the pre-season than have him tell Knight to simply defer to Monroe. Coaching him that way trains him out of the concept of “reading the defense” and into a deferential mindset which will ultimately undermine Knight’s development.
And yeah, I wouldn’t want you as the head coach of the Pistons either Gulks…
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
by The Boourns on Dec 21, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
"Listen, I realize you’re 19 years old and have a ton of growth to do, but instead of taking these 2 meaningless games to start getting your feet wet in the NBA, I just want you to defer to Greg on every play".
Strawman. Never hinted that anything of the sort should be said or done. Simply expressed that Moose should be the centerpiece of the offense (does anyone disagree with this?) and the coach should be instilling this in his young player.
Ya know the easiest way for Frank to explain to Knight what a terrible shot is? Its letting him take a few that he can go back to the gametape on and call him out on it. I’d much rather Frank have that gametape at his disposal from the get-go because of how he played in the pre-season than have him tell Knight to simply defer to Monroe
Same strawman.
Is Moose our best player? By all counts here, yes. Did Knight take bad shots in the preseason games? Yes. Did not he take significantly more shots than Moose? Yes. When Moose plays more minutes than Knight, and Knight still ends up with significantly more shots, that’s a problem.
Is it going to be a long-term problem? Who knows? These were two meaningless games. But in those meaningless games, I see it as a problem.
That’s the extent of my point. You’re putting all sorts of words in my mouth, using them to create a caricature of my point, and then arguing against it.
w/r/t coaching philosophy, we can all have our opinions. My experience with basketball suggests that you’re right about the best way to bring a young player along. I think this is exactly what Frank ought to do.
But that doesn’t mean that you don’t also pull Knight aside during a timeout and tell him to get your best player involved in the offense, reminding him that’s his primary job as a PG.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
I think you're demanding too much and too quickly.
And I agree with Boo…urns that these two games were a nice opportunity to let Knight work according to his own design of what he should do and then the coach can use that tape to show him what he did wrong.
The idea of him being “drilled” into his head certain things in such short time working with the coach seems like a violation of a natural growing and learning process every player goes through.
He looked like an antsy young players trying to prove his worth, its the coaching staff works to then properly direct him, according to his abilities, to how he can best do that.
It was just two preseason games.
WWGMD?
But that doesn’t mean that you don’t also pull Knight aside during a timeout and tell him to get your best player involved in the offense, reminding him that’s his primary job as a PG.
In a meaningless game, no you do not. You do what Boourns suggested and let your rookie make mistakes and than you take the game tape later on and say “this is what you did, this is what you should’ve done.” Use the meaningless games to see the mistakes and more importantly see the consistent mistakes and than take your young PG aside after they’re made and tell him what he should do differently.
Had this been a regular season game, then yes you are correct in what Frank should have done. But for that, no you do not correct right then.
I really don’t know how to respond to this. Frank isn’t supposed to coach during the preseason? This makes no sense to me.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Its no strawman...
And only made 5 of them. He took 9 last night, e.g., and Monroe took 5. He’s shooting almost as much as anyone else on the court.
God forbid a 19 year old with less experience than literally ANYONE else on our team take a few extra shots during the pre-season…From some reason, I was under the impression that that is what the pre-season is for.
If Knight’s not getting it drilled into his head early and often that Moose is the centerpiece of the offense, then it’s being done wrong.
At least 2-3 of those bad shots were taken in pick and roll situations WITH Monroe. Therefore, Knight, the player calling for the pick and roll, is in fact getting Monroe involved in the offense. Did Knight make the right read? Probably not. Re-iterating to Knight that Monroe is the centerpiece of the offense still undermines his decision-making when Knight has already gotten Monroe involved. The correct message is still “make the right read” not “Monroe is the centerpiece of our offense”.
I was being called out for criticizing his shot selection. Do you disagree on that point? Dude’s taken some really dumb shots, yea or nay?
Every player young, middle-of-their-career, or old takes dumb shots. You may be criticizing past performance, and acknowledging that these are only pre-season games, but the amount of time you’re spending on this would imply that you seem to think this doesn’t bode well for the regular season. That or you’re making early assumptions that Frank isn’t coaching Knight right. Or at least that is the impression you are giving off.
That’s the extent of my point. You’re putting all sorts of words in my mouth, using them to create a caricature of my point, and then arguing against it.
Whether or not you explicitly said it isn’t all that important and I’m in no way creating a “caricature” of your argument. It’s no caricature because its the way that I personally interpreted your complaints (and I don’t believe I’m the only one here who interpreted your comments in a similar fashion) and I believe that even though you didn’t say it, you somehow think that Knight and/or Frank could already be fucking up based on 2 pre-season games and the kid’s freshman year in college.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
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Well..
He has two weeks of practice and two games’ experience. Remember this year, there was no summer league, and the preseason was essentially cut by what, 60%. I don’t think it’s really fair to judge.
If we could see him in summer league against typical calibre (that’s for my CA friends lol) opposition, we might feel differently.
No reason not to remain optimistic.
This is DBB, and this is what we do.
by V. on Dec 21, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
Should Daye post up more on offense?
by -PS- on Dec 21, 2011 10:08 AM EST via Android app reply actions
I think CV’s got that part covered
Without a doubt, squats are a cure for everything.
by bearded thundar on Dec 21, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
If he plays shooting guard, why not? His height advantage, particularly for turnaround jumpers, would be significant. And he won’t automatically be lighter than his defender. However, I doubt he has enough functional strength to bang down low, so the team will have to run him off some screens to get position.
I’d like to see him use a post up simply as a way to get the ball where he’s comfortable on the floor. Post up to get open, then turn and face immediately.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Some quick thoughts:
Rebounding is going to be a problem with this team. A big problem.
This team as constructed cannot repeatedly push the ball down the court without suffering a barrage of turnovers. And I think it’s a shame because it seems there are a bunch of forwards on this team who can run the floor well and beat their man to the cup in transition.
Rodney Stuckey still doesn’t do a good job of looking for teammates whenever he’s ready to take his man to the basket. He’s always looking to score as opposed to looking to make the right play.
Brandon Knight needs to develop his left hand. It looks really suspect.
Austin Daye looked good as starting SG. However, I’m concerned at how he’ll hold up on the defensive end. The jury is still out on this issue because the Cavaliers don’t have any SGs who can expose Daye in an isolation situation, nor do they have one who can force Daye to run around and chase his man off some screens.
Greg Monroe needs to be tougher and more physical with the ball in the post. It looked as if he had trouble establishing position down low. And when Monroe was able to receive the ball down there he was getting moved around quite a bit.
Jason Maxiell is looking worse and worse on the offensive end. He’s becoming a complete liability on this end of the floor, and it’s crippling the team’s offensive flow.
Without a doubt, squats are a cure for everything.
by bearded thundar on Dec 21, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah I don't understand why you would post a lol at anything Kruza said.
Seemed like a well thought out epinion piece to me.
Maybe because it was all negatives/constructive criticism.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
^
It seems that people actively look for the negatives
Without a doubt, squats are a cure for everything.
by bearded thundar on Dec 21, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Heh, nah I'm not mad.
I’m still going to enjoy watching the Pistons during the regular season regardless of what happens. Anyway, those issues I posted earlier this morning were things that jumped out to me while watching both of the Pistons games against the Cavaliers. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done with the players and coaches on this team to address those things, although I do think a lot of these things can be fixed in-season.
Yeah, it's just a preseason game.
The fellas look messy, but I think they’ll improve.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
I also have some question marks about Daye’s viability on defense at SG. However, I think two things are probably being considered by the coaching staff. First, is his length, which in the preseason games, more than made up for his lack of lateral quickness (crazy blocked shots). Second, the alternatives are Gordon and Stuckey.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
I think its clear the team needs to do a better job at establishing Gregory the Monrobocop Warrior in the post, he was asking for the ball on every possession, managed to get himself open many times, but the team failed to get him the ball. Unacceptable. The Pistons offense should run through Greg, its time to take advantage of what we have.
He looks bigger btw, though I don’t know how that ‘getting more blocks’ thing will work out.
Daye is still Daye, he can be productive on both sides of the ball but he still makes a lot of stupid decisions. It’s his 3rd year, I expect him to know better by now. If he limits himself to the teams that he really can do well, none of which include passing, he can be a positive influence.
Stuckey looked like Stuckey except a bit rusty. A bit out of place too.
Knight has pleasantly surprised me. I’m seeing PG skill, which I didn’t know he had. Considering the conditions I leave preseason encouraged. Shooting is still suspect though.
Jonas looks rusty as hell and trying to do too much. Energy is there and so is his skill, now its all about him back in his role. We need to establish a scheme in order to do that.
Macklin had some nice moments, hit the boards, a put back. Plus, he’s sooooo handsome.
The Pistons still suck, but I’m gonna enjoy seeing how the guys above do. The rest I couldn’t give a shit.
WWGMD?
by Kriz on Dec 21, 2011 11:12 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I agree with pretty much everything here.
Including Macklin being a handsome fellow. However, when your wing players can’t execute a simple post feed, it’s tough to get Greg the ball. It’s gotta be frustrating for him to battle for post position and have some tard mess it up because he didn’t fake a pass then make a pass.
All the time relaxed.
give him and Knight some time to work out the pick and roll
We’ve only seen flashes so far, but I fully believe those two could become a killer combo – especially if Moose can actually hit that skyhook with consistency (or really even just a baseline jumper, but skyhooks are so much cooler)
Without a doubt, squats are a cure for everything.
by bearded thundar on Dec 21, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
knight won the game
he’s a closer. He came in and took us back into the lead in the fourth quarter.
He’s got a lot of improvements to make, but you can tell he’s a leader by example.
Stuckey is the same, 10 free throws, but he clogged up the offense.
btw, did you see Rip’s comment (probably concerning Stuckey and Bynum):
“on this team, there are no ball hogs” http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm#gVC-r1PH5
I agree with him… Last year, the Pistons always lost when they didn’t pass
Stuckey is the same (as last year)
not the same as knight/
But Frank is a smart coach and I think he is going to make some changes.
Hopefully BG and CV were DNP’s because they were being traded to UTAH for Al Jefferson
or to Charlotte for Okafor or Kaman
Rec'd For Reference To Wrong Charlotte Franchise
This is DBB, and this is what we do.
by V. on Dec 21, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
Save it, Rip.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
Doesn’t rip play with that Derrick rose guy now? Not exactly a pass first pg.
follow me on twitter: @danieldresden
by dandresden on Dec 21, 2011 2:30 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Rip’s becoming more and more of a douchebag day by day. I hope Joakim Noah puts bamboo shoots under his fingernails.
WORD PLAY
hollywoodsloce.tumblr.com
by Biz Markie Moon on Dec 21, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Kremlinology
I think there is a job somewhere analyzing what Hamilton says to the press and figuring out what he is really thinking. After all, the first thing he said on arriving in Chicago was that he had no problem with “career assistant” Kuester.
Rip’s pal Tayshaun is the biggest ball hog on this team (Bynum is a close second).
by freywagg on Dec 21, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Cleveland
Without a doubt. Also Toronto. Sacramento (especially if there is controversy). Milwaukee. Charlotte (given their youth movement). Orlando could easily implode. Hard to know what will happen In Philly (although not if other teams are willing to give them free wins to make stupid useless points). Half of Denver’s team is in China I think. In other words, most of the teams from last year and a few teams which may (or may not) collapse, especially given the lockout.
Cleveland, No. Milwaukee, definitely No. Orlando, No. Even if they only play 20 games with Howard, they’re still ahead of us. Toronto, perhaps. Sacramento, I don’t know, but I doubt it. Philly, No. Denver could win 40+ games, so definitely no.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Cleveland
is plain not very good. Pistons competed well with only a part roster both times. Also overly dependent on rookies which means growing pains. My bigger point is effect of lockout still largely unknown. Effect of sneaking up on people also should help marginally. But again, I’m of the opinion that the lottery is a mug’s game, you never know who with a better record might jump ahead of you. My fervent hope is Frank will establish a winning culture and things will grow from there.
Cleveland didn't use their rookies much
and in limited minutes, Thompson did quite well. By February, Irving and Thompson are likely to wind up in the starting lineup, and if they can trade a big for a wing, they’ll be in better shape than we are.
Maybe Cleveland is dumb enough for this (kidding! no one is).
I've been holding off predicting, because I kept hoping/assuming we'd make a big move
because it’s so obvious — as it has been for a couple of years — that we need one. But. . . .
Charlotte, Toronto, and Washington worst 3. Is Biyombo going to play?
I’d say our competition for the entry into the top tier is Cleveland and Sacramento. So, looking like the Pistons are among the 6 worst teams in the NBA right now hands down. I actually think Minny might not suck, that bad.
Is Biyombo going to play?
Biyombo has been bought out of his contract with Fuenlabrada, not sure when he’ll be joining the Bobcats, but he won’t have to wait a year to join them.
I hope so
1) i want to watch biyombo
2) i want the bobcats to have a better record
3) i want dumars to fail
4) by succeeding at getting a top 3 pick
5) and then get fired
I’m not sure I feel about my own feelings about this, but I want Dumars to fail, too. I know that’s awful of me, but it’s just the truth. I want Stuckey to keep being Stuckey, I want Tay to get old and start sucking, I want Brandon Knight to suck as a rookie, I want Charlie and BG to keep being themselves, all so we suck and get a good draft pick (which Dumars will botch), and then get fired.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Vehemently against the concept of "Hoping Dumars fails".
And no I don’t want the Bobcats to have a better record. They’re not the Pistons. I don’t want anything good to happen to them. They’re not the Detroit Bobcats, so I couldn’t give a shit less about the fortunes of Michael Jordan and his pet franchise.
Additionally disagree with the idea that we’ll have
a good draft pick (which Dumars will botch)
Monroe worked out pretty well. Knight looks promising. I’m less of a Dumars supporter than I was a year or two ago- but just flat out saying he’s gonna mishandle the 2012 pick in preseason 2011 is premature and unfair, Brother Gurks. Singler’s a flaky little shit and what Dumars did/didn’t do with Terrico was just lame, but Dumars can still draft, some of the time at least.
Now you wanna pitch me on a scenario where he misuses Piston funds to bring in an undeserving player we don’t need who clearly ain’t Pistons material- I’m all in on that one. He’s a master at that shit.
.. I still think he’s been an okay War Room GM lately.
again, I’m much less of a Dumars supporter than I used to be, but hell no I’m not actively rooting for him to fail.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
by Skylar on Dec 21, 2011 6:48 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
Rec’d. Just who is this MFSkylar guy, anyways?
by garrettelliott on Dec 21, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
rec’d. I agree 100%
Without a doubt, squats are a cure for everything.
by bearded thundar on Dec 21, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
I can buy both of those pitches
Personally, I’m rooting for him to be fired. He deserves to be. But he won’t be, so mostly I’m rooting for him to finally manage to pull his head out of his ass. But he won’t. So fiddlesticks.
This basically where I’m at as well. If Jod hasn’t been fired yet, it’s not going to happen, maybe ever, or until he voluntarily leaves.
But I find his weaknesses as a GM very grating. Especially his total disregard for any type of rigorous draft analysis beyond, “handles it, shoots it, long and smooth!”
I think Joe is a great figure head and is important to Detroit sports so I think he should stay. I just want him getting input from other sources besides his hungry gut.
by garrettelliott on Dec 22, 2011 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
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