Karen Davidson: "I have no idea" if Tom Gores will keep Joe Dumars
by Matt Watson on May 19, 2011 10:16 AM EDT
in Detroit Pistons News
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PrintThe NBA's Draft Combine starts today in Chicago, and while most of the attention will be on the prospects, it's also a reminder of how the Detroit Pistons refuse to put John Kuester out of his misery. From Vince Ellis of the Free Press:
Most of the Detroit Pistons' front office is in Chicago for this week's predraft camp, but not coach John Kuester.
And there are no indications he will be here Thursday, when drills and testing for NBA draft prospects begin. The team is interviewing players today.
Pistons president of basketball operations Joe Dumars hasn’t announced a decision on whether Kuester will return for the final season of the three-year contract he agreed to in the summer of 2009.
Most people following the Pistons have long since taken for granted that Kuester will be replaced, but when? Isn't Dumars shooting himself in the foot by refusing to make the decision official, giving every other team with a coaching vacancy a head start on picking through the top candidates?
I don't know this, but I suspect that Dumars couldn't fire Kuester if he wanted to, at least not yet. It's taken longer than anticipated for the NBA's Board of Governors to officially ratify the sale of the team from Karen Davidson, and until that's written in stone, there's a good chance that Dumars is operating with the same handcuffs he's been wearing the last couple of seasons.
And maybe that's not a bad thing -- especially if Gores hasn't officially decided he wants to retain Dumars in the first place. In an interview with Tom Walsh of the Free Press, Karen Davidson avoided the question of Dumars' future altogether:
Will former Pistons star Joe Dumars remain team president?
[...] "I have no idea," Davidson said, when I asked about Dumars. That will be up to Gores and the crack management pros from his Platinum Equity investment group, which also will have a stake in the Pistons.
"They are very success oriented," Davidson said. "It's not as if they're a bunch of amateurs with a lot of money."
You have to hope that a new owner won't be content with Detroit's slide into irrelevance, and it's not out of line to think that he might hold Dumars accountable. So until Gores decides who he trusts to run the team, I suspect all other decisions will be delayed.
More KD on TG: For more on Davidson gushing about Gores, she was also interviewed by the Detroit News -- DBB'er Big Z has highlighted some of the key quotes here.
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Joe Dumars deserves 12 months under new ownership to turn this team around. It’s obvious he can’t fire Kuester whilst KD still owns the team- then she’d have to pay him out. He can’t make any trades that are going to take on salary, and no-one is taking our vets for straight expirings. KD announced she was trying to sell the team, what 18 months ago? And the Pistons haven’t made a trade in what, 18 months?
I don’t think it is a coincidence.
(man he did screw the pooch with CV and BG though)
Why would you
buy out anyone’s contract? If im not mistaken during a lockout no one gets paid. Why pay a guy when there is a good chance you wont have to pay him. You can always buy him out mid season.
I’m not sure how coaching salaries are treated during the lockout — in fact, they may differ on a case-by-case basis, depending on what people negotiated into their contract.
by Matt Watson on May 19, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
If you argue that Kuester should be fired (everyone on DBB, I think, except maybe Shinons (?) and myself at times), while also arguing that Dumars deserves 12 months, I am thoroughly confused.
Clean the whole MFHouse.
I’m neutral on firing Kuester, for what it’s worth. Certainly don’t bring him back if Dumars is gone, though. Let a new GM start over.
Agree with Birdman
I still think Joe D. probably deserves more time though. But then Gores will know a lot more about the presence of “hand-cuffs” put on Joe by the previous ownership.
"You’d be surprised what you can accomplish if you’re not concerned with making sense!"- PS
simple,
Dumars has a winning track record, regardless on whether or not he was “handcuffed” by the sale of the Pistons. Kuester has done a shity job period. Now you don’t have to agree, but it in no way is this a contradictory position.
simple, Dumars has a winning track record
Not since 2008. While I think Kuester was a miserable coach for much of last season and he’s beyond defense, the part you can’t blame him for is the garbage that he’s working with. That garbage was put there by Dumars when his hands weren’t tied.
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
to try and keep this simple
by winning track record, since he was named GM UNTIL 2008 he was by most accounts a top 5 GM . For a short 2 years since he has been a bottom tier GM. I have never argued hes done a great job lately, nor would I even try. Id like anyone to reasonably explain to me how we should throw out a man who built us back to respectability from a joke almost immediately when taking the job.
To clarify further, Yes hes fucking up, however hasn’t he earned the right to fuck up just a BIT more before we run him out of town? That’s what my argument seems to boil down to.
By contrast
Kuester has only been a head coach for two seasons.
Contradictory? Perhaps not. Inconsistent? Absolutely.
But I think this will be a moot point. Gores is likely to give Dumars rope, and I’m pretty sure I know what he’s going to do with it.
Id like anyone to reasonably explain to me how we should throw out a man who built us back to respectability from a joke almost immediately when taking the job.
Building and renovating are two distinct disciplines, Danny, especially in basketball. It is a hell of a lot easier to clean someone else’s mess than it is to fix your own. Historically, new GMs are more likely to make moves that improve a team than a GM that has already failed to do so. Joe Dumars was that GM when he was hired. He had a strong philosophy, he showed patience, he wasn’t biased about the players he inherited, and he offered wise trades and conservative contracts for under-the-radar players. With an added dose of objectivity, that Joe Dumars is the central inspiration to how I personally think about basketball. When I think of what I would do to change this roster, that Joe Dumars is my guide.
Joe Dumars was a master builder, but he’s failed as a renovator. In fact, the factors that I loved about the old Joe Dumars are entirely gone from this new one. Does this current roster suggest a strong, recognizable philosophy? Has Dumars not let bias get in the way of his personnel decisions? Has he offered wise trades and conservative contracts to under-the-radar talents? No, no, no and no. Joe Dumars as a renovator has been a failure. Now fans want to hire him again to do something he’s already failed at.
The funny thing is, if Gores does the best thing for this franchise and brings in an objective character with no connection to this current roster, I fully expect Dumars to be hired elsewhere and to succeed elsewhere. He’ll come in with a clean slate for a crappy roster and he’ll turn it around just like he did this Pistons team.
When it comes to renovation, this Dumars has exhibited no discernible philosophy, he’s shown a bias toward the wrong players and he’s signed overrated players to overblown contracts. We need a fresh set of eyes just as Joe Dumars needs a fresh opportunity elsewhere. Personally, I’m excited for this to be over, for him to be elsewhere and time to move on so that I can remember Joe for the brilliance he established in building a champion. Dumars as renovator is his own worst enemy in that regard.
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
by Mike Payne on May 19, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Thanks for the thoughtful response and much of what you say makes alot of sense. Because of it you guys don’t sound like blood thirsty lunatics anymore to me. Just one thing though, over at pistonpowered they had an article showing that dumars had put together two separate 50 win teams. Doesn’t that show he has shown that he has the ability to be a “renovator”?
over at pistonpowered they had an article showing that dumars had put together two separate 50 win teams. Doesn’t that show he has shown that he has the ability to be a "renovator"?
From visiting their homepage, I couldn’t find that article, nor do I see how such a claim makes sense when looking at the franchise history under Joe. That’s not a knock on Joe, more of a knock on that rationale.
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
Sorry at work and couldnt find it
but i didn’t want to pass it off as my own Idea so I sourced them.
Check the roster of his first 50-win team in 2002. Now compare that to his last 50 win team in 2008. If you’ll notice, not a single player from that first roster was still on the team in 2008. In a period of six years, not only did Dumars completely rebuild his team, he did so while maintaining a team that won 50 games each of those seasons. There is not another GM in the league who can claim that (hat-tip to Dan Feldman, who tipped me off to that point).
Yeah, that’s quite poor rationale, as I suggested above. The 2001-02 Pistons team was mostly made up of players Joe inherited, where the 2008 team was completely his creation.
The 2002 team was a part of a transition that didn’t end until February of 2004. That’s the team Dumars should be credited for, and the first one upon which he stood pat.
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
No, we're still bloodthirsty lunatics
We’re just reasonable bloodthirsty lunatics dammit.
by Shinons* on May 19, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
My take on Dumars right now is
that he still has .. presence, maybe? Dumars won 2 titles and was directly involved in a 3rd despite zero playing time. That’s something to be respected and admired.
He is also responsible for keeping some bad players around too long- additionally he has signed two underachieving FAs for long contracts with just as long dollars. He showed a bad estimation of Gordon and Villanueva’s value.
He is responsible for drafting two of our favorites. I appreciate this.
John Kuester lost his charge quickly. Only a few of these players will do as he says.
I don’t know why Dumars never stepped in to bring some sort of hammer down on these clowns- if anything I would fire him for that, when I think about it.
It remains to be seen if Joe Dumars can lure a good, respected, talented coach here to Detroit when he let a 30-52 team walk all over the current one.
That’s my biggest problem with Joe Dumars right now, because he let all the disorder and disrespect just go and go.
Either that or he tried to handle it and failed. Regardless- he is not controlling his players well. That shit is inexcusable to me.
Not calling for his job quite yet though. Somehow I think his past achievements cannot be ignored, and he could still fix this. If Gores gives him this new season to really make big improvements, I think that would be fair. Just one season though, because Dumars has presided over a freefall for this franchise- Detroit is one of the league’s punchlines right now.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
by Skylar on May 19, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I agree 100% with Skylar.
I’m not on the fire Dumars train…..yet. But the fact that he let the inmates run the asylum is embarrassing and inexcusable. He should have stepped up to shut that noise down.
by garrettelliott on May 19, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate to keep making excuses, but,
I can’t help but think, the ownership situation played a role in how Q and Joe handled the insubordinates. I could be worng, I might be wrong, but it seemed like they were content on benching players for a little while and then gave up. Why they gave up is a big question mark to me. Maybe they were just fishing for more wins by playing their more talented players, maybe they wanted to raise those players’ stock, I don’t know. Whatever the reason, it was definitely a short term decision and has not helped the team in any way.
I want to stay neutral on this, but the biggest thing with JD that has stuck out to me has been the Coaching staff(s). I liked Rick Carlisle, to this day I’m not sure what happened between him and whoever wanted to axe him, but I thought he was going to be a stape to our organization along with Joe D for a long time. Then he got fired and Larry Brown made us all feel like a one night stand doing the walk of shame to planned parenthood for a plan b pill. Since then it’s been a mess.
NO HOMO!!!!!!!
Or...
Ownership frustrated every move he made to right the ship, because they didn’t want to lose any money on the table.
Note how well Gores did in negotiating the purchase of the franchise. Not only did her get the price he wanted, he has complete control, while leaving Mrs Davidson with 10% of the ownership. Smart.
I’d love to hear from Tom Wilson what really happened with Ostfield cooking the books; I mean, Ostfield, unlike his boss, is no dummy. Certainly he had to know that he wasn’t going to fool Wilson, who was advising Mr, I. Of course, Wilson’s cleaning house if Mr. I ends up with the team, and Ostfield had to know this.
The politics with ownership and their executives have always been thick with the Pistons. Moreover, I think it’s pretty well established that Mrs. Davidson has acted consistent with being a fourth wife: having no clue whatsoever what’s going on with anything she’s involved with, but at least keeping her mouth shut about it. Keeping that in mind, it’s no surprise Dumars’ hands were tied, and whatever plan he had was thwarted. But, others here will see what they only want to see.
Just Vpinion
But, others here will see what they only want to see.
Repeating something until it breaks the eardrums of everyone listening does not make it true, V. “Others” will see both sides instead of blindly toting the company line. One side suggests that Dumars hands were tied in the last year-and-a-half. It’s tough to argue with that, given the latest details. The other side will suggest that the moves made before that period, and the roster that resulted, were entirely the fault of the guy pulling the trigger. It’s just as tough if not tougher to argue against that.
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
Secondly...
The local beat writers have been pretty much unanimous about asserting that Dumars couldn’t do anything. He had Rip and his shitty contract dealt three times, with management vetoing the first two and Rip vetoing the third. One of those deals was rumored to be with Utah for Boozer (which I don’t believe-I know ownership and their minions are ignorant, but they can’t be that ignorant).
I tend to think he’s staying, this is beyond question, but you never know.
Just Vpinion
He had Rip and his shitty contract dealt three times, with management vetoing the first two and Rip vetoing the third.
So ownership is to blame for Rip being offered that shitty contract? And ownership is to blame for Dumars then doubling down at shooting guard for shit ass Ben Gordon? And ownership is to blame for Dumars trading away the most efficient starting shooting guard in the league for NOTHING? All in one calendar year?
Also, are you interested in a job?
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
by Mike Payne on May 20, 2011 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm in the I couldn't care less who coaches this team until we get better players camp.
and then I still probably won’t care, because our better players will make our scrub coach look better.
I heard the menu sucks
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
A toilet reeking is not cause to change toilet, it's cause to change the maintenance procedures. Next toilet will reek in due time as well.
That’s what TheyCallMeBruceLee would do. Probably.
by Shinons* on May 20, 2011 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
That is so profound...
"You’d be surprised what you can accomplish if you’re not concerned with making sense!"- PS
He who stands on toilet is high on pot.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on May 20, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
maybe so
but at least they know the proper order of serving the appetizer, salad, soup and three main courses. Also, when it’s time to deliver the dessert, they don’t arrive with a bowl full of salt.
You’re right though, there ain’t shit across the street in this town until the restaurant gets a new owner and head chef.
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
Yep, any chef in the business would have looked lousy if the only things he could serve up were wings and combo platters.
by Shinons* on May 20, 2011 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
The main distinction
is that it wouldn’t have taken a good chef half a year to figure out the right mix of ingredients for a decent menu. You don’t start a business by putting fish where beef is needed.
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
True, but my main issue is that even the veteran cooks we considered going with wouldn’t have known where to start with such screwed up options. The fact that he was able to turn those pieces into something edible by the end of the season shows progress at least, and progress is what I want to see out of my second-year chef. Also headed into the season we expected to have a two star restaurant, and a two star restaurant is what we ended up with.
My biggest problem with Kuester was his communication problems with his ingredients. That’s something that can be developed. Carlisle had problems with that in Detroit and Indianapolis, but he learned that once he got to Dallas he needed to start singing to his spaghetti sauce right away. Hopefully Kuester’s learned that lesson.
Man, I'm getting hungry listening to you guys.
Anybody know of a good restaurant?
"You’d be surprised what you can accomplish if you’re not concerned with making sense!"- PS
yeah, the inability to communicate with the ingredients nearly killed this restaurant
a failure that would have cost nearly any restaurant his job. wait, analogy fail.
But I wouldn’t call what we saw this season “progress”, I would call it “finally doing what you’re supposed to do” with the ingredients at hand.
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
Which brings us to the point where we always hit our impasse. I’d like to see us work with our inexperienced head chefs, to develop them if possible rather than have them cooking to save their jobs every dinner. We will always be able to find a reason to fire someone, whether they poison a customer, burnt the chicken, or the green chili stew just doesn’t taste quite right. At some point we’re going to have to find a chef we’re willing to stick with or else the restaurant’s never going to have any sort of consistency.
If Kuester had been a good coach
We’d have had something like the 10th pick this year.
How are we any better off? Same thing next summer. Say we bring in the greatest coach of all time, and we win 37 games. Then what?
I don't want Kuester fired
Unless someone much better comes along. No need to fire him just for the sake of it- i actually think that keeping him is important in developing a stronger culture at the club. Players MUST realise they are not bigger than the team and tossing him aside now would do the opposite of that.
by aussiepiston on May 19, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not that confusing, Ben.
Kuester has never head-coached before and there is little to indicate that he is a top tier coach in the making. Yes, he had some major limits imposed upon him. But I haven’t heard the argument that his presence made the team better this year or last.
Dumars has been dreadful these past couple of years. But is there a chance that Joe Dumars is capable of building a championship caliber team? Yes. He’s done it . Six years in a row.
It’s fair to lambast Dumars’ last three years and to argue that he should go now. (I disagree with the latter.) But it shouldn’t be “confusing” that folks seem to have a shorter leash with an underachieving coach with no track record of success than they do with a guy who was arguably the best GM in the League for at least half a decade.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on May 20, 2011 7:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Kuester was a very successful coach in Cleveland, when he had good players.
People keep ignoring this, over and over and over. If you’re going to site Dumars’ history, that’s all well and good. But you can’t say Kuester has no track record at all — that’s not true. He was the mind behind one of the best offenses in the league.
If Dumars wouldn’t have hired him, someone else would have.
rec’d for cite
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
by Mike Payne on May 21, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
So give Lebron to Michael Curry, and all of a sudden MCIAFI wouldn’t be AFI any more?
He was the mind behind one of the best offenses in the league.
He was also the mind behind one of the worst defenses in the league. (if you try to blame the roster for this one, you can’t honor the coach for the “best offense” above for precisely the same reason)
The Lebron Offense really isn’t that remarkable— especially when you take Lebron out of the equation. Kuester tried to run it all season long in Detroit with Tayshaun Prince as his central player.
You know, had he had some more flexibility this season, the overall offensive rating of Kuester’s offense would have been higher. His insistence upon using Prince as the key man in his offense had a serious negative impact on pacing, and opening up the offense to less single-player-weighting would have improved its efficacy as a result. Before this season, one of the main things I wanted to see out of Kuester was to improve the team’s pacing. The players even called for it last summer. But it was still almost shit last, and it was precisely Kuester’s doing.
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
This isn't a defend Kuester play from me
All I am saying is that the dude does have a resume.
People keep talking about him as if he has no success in his past, which just isn’t true.
There’s no question he’s made enough mistakes to warrant his firing; I don’t disagree. But statements like this,
an underachieving coach with no track record of success
simply aren’t true. Kuester was a highly successful assistant coach, and again, if Dumars didn’t hire him, someone would have.
I understand Gulks
I think when I’ve heard people talk about that they’ve referred to Kuester in the head coaching context. You’re right that Kuester was most certainly on his way to a head coaching gig in 2009-10, leading the assistant-to-head-coach convert buzz for that summer. (just like Thibodeau last year and Shaw this year)
Jai Alai's got the bomb hops, drinkin Belgian styles from Cooperstown to Comstock.
But assistant coach and head coach are very different things
And LeBron would make Ralph Wiggum look like at least a competent offensive coach.
I could go as far as to argue that Kuester wasn’t this team’s main problem. But the team wasn’t good and probably played worse than expected, all things considered, and this has happened two years in a row.
But even if you disagree with keeping Dumars, you can sure understand how a guy who created a team that enjoyed six years of championship-caliber teams would have more fan support than a guy was disliked by his players and has average fewer than thirty wins a year in his only experience as a head coach, right?
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on May 26, 2011 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions
In all fairness,
it wouldn’t suprise me if Karen didn’t know half the player’s names let alone Dumars’ future.
I highly doubt the first half of that...
she was even quoted earlier mentioning she simply isn’t of the mindset to be running an NBA franchise and that her biggest interest as it pertains to the team is asking how the players’ families/children are. If she knows which of them have children, then I’m sure she knows what their names are.
And I’m also sure that Jonas has had his way with her…
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on May 19, 2011 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And I’m also sure that Jonas has had his way with her…
rec’d because it probably happens on the regular
Or she just assumes they have kids
Because she’s a racist.
/here-say’dconjecture’dandroomer’d
This signature is false.
by heWizard on May 19, 2011 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Mostly scornful sarcasm; I read that about the player's families too
No doubt Jonas ploughed her though
From all I read she gets along well with the players.
I recall seeing her image of her cutting a birthday cake for Eyebrows and Body spoke in a very positive manner of her.
WWGMD?
Based on the articles around at the moment
The firm handling the sale was financing the club right now. No wonder no deals have taken place at all- i expect a lot more from JoeD sans cuffs
Squirrel!
Moose & Squirrel!
by freywagg on May 20, 2011 12:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
This rec
comes with the most giddily please grin I can muster!
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on May 20, 2011 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn't it be funny if they ended up having an affair and getting married
and soon after he would die and she would become the owner of the team again.
Funny, right? Right? No?
WWGMD?
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