Pistons Frontcourt Playing Time
by revken on Jul 14, 2011 6:12 PM EDT
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PrintWell, after all the wonderful discussion generated by my post on the Pistons backcourt, I thought I'd try to generate some more talk about the frontcourt playing options. Since my suggestion of moving Stuckey to SG was greeted with much derision, I figured I'd offer a safer option this time: moving Daye to Center.
Reasons why this is a good idea:
1. It builds on Daye's experience at PF last year and, as everyone knows, NBA PFs and Cs are pretty much interchangeable these days.
2. Gets Daye on the court, AND allows us to play Jonas at SF and Monroe at PF.
3. Creates a matchup nightmare for opposing teams' centers because of Daye's ability to shoot 3s.
4. And best of all, ...
Post continues after the jump
... it allows opposing teams' centers to experience what it feels like to be "Shaq for a Day(e)" when they play the Pistons.
Okay, now I'll try to get serious. Although I thought it was a joke last year when it was first suggested that Daye would start at PF after Jonas went down, and then that actually happened! So I want to go on record as saying that unless we're in a situation where we need to put as many 3-point shooters on the floor as possible, or the other team is trying to outskinny us at the 4, that we NEVER try that experiment again.
So on to the respective frontcourt spots:
Center: Starter is Greg Monroe. I know some people think he's better suited to be a PF, and that may be true in an ideal world where we have a Dwight Howard type to man the middle. But for this Pistons squad I don't see any better option. I also think Monroe has to develop a consistent jumpshot to play PF. Centers can get away with not being able to shoot, but it's a much more glaring weakness in a PF. First backup is Ben Wallace. Hopefully he can give us 15+ quality minutes a night (and more on those occasions when Monroe gets in foul trouble) and anchor the second unit defense. Other options are Maxiell, Wilcox (if we keep him) and Macklin (if he makes the team).
Power Forward: Starter is Jonas Jerebko. Many people think he's better suited to play SF, but I think we probably need him more at PF on this squad. Hopefully he's fully healed and the work in the weight room has better equipped him to bang with the big boys. I don't think we know yet how good he can be, but I expect he'll be a strong contributor for years to come. First backup is Charlie Villanueva. I think an argument can be made for Wilcox (if he stays) based on how he played toward the end of the year, though his game probably pairs up better with Monroe's than it does with Wallace's. An argument can also be made for Maxiell, I suppose. But CV should be good for 15+ minutes a game for his ability to stretch the floor and his occasional hot hand.
Small Forward: Starter is Austin Daye. I'm assuming we don't hold on to Prince or McGrady, because there's really no point to it. Prince is clearly worth more than this team can afford to pay him. I think an argument can be made that keeping McGrady at a vet minimum contract is worth doing because of his versatility, but there's no point to paying him much more. Daye needs the opportunity to show us what he can do at SF. First backup is Kyle Singler. He should be more ready to contribute than are most rookies. Hopefully he'll bring the same kind of hustle and scrappiness to the second unit that Jonas provides for the starters. Jonas can also play SF, of course, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets some time there. (For instance, I can see JJ doing a decent job guarding LeBron, but I don't see how Daye can manage that matchup. But maybe Daye could match up better with Bosh, who only outweighs him by 35 lbs.) Hamilton and Stuckey have also played some SF for us, so that's another possibility in a pinch.
I think the goal has to be to give the young guys as much playing time as possible, AND to give guys a consistent role on the team. I don't know if this team can win 30+ games, and don't really care. I think the priority is developing the young guys and identifying what the key next pieces need to be. We probably need another athletic big up front who could team up with Monroe and Jerebko, but hopefully we'll discover this year whether that's the greatest priority or not. We might also find that we are just as much in need of a wing to play at SF or SG.
Anyway, seeing as we don't know when or if the games will begin again, I hope this gives us something to banter about.
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don't see much debate
there’s daye, jerebko, monroe, wallace and scrubs. obviously you don’t want scrubs starting, or even playing for that matter but that seems unavoidable at this point.
IRRELEPHANT!
Many people think he’s better suited to play SF, but I think we probably need him more at PF on this squad.
DOESN’T MATTER. Playing people out of position is part of what has sucked so hard for this team the last 3 years. If we don’t get into a position where we can play our quality performers (this means Jerebko) in the positions they are best at, then I would consider this an EPIC FAIL.
by Big Z in Orlando on Jul 15, 2011 10:52 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I was actually thinking of a fanpost along these lines on the way into work this morning
Whenever I fire up NBA2k11’s franchise mode with the Pistons, the first thing I do is move Monroe to PF and Jerebko to SF. However the consensus on DBB and everywhere else seems to be playing each of them a spot bigger, reasonably so with the lack of alternatives.
The part that had me interested was an old DBBate from a couple years ago about “true” centers. I’ve never really given a damn about the idea of true centers, have always seen it more as two big men, each filling a different role. Monroe may have the size to bang with anyone, but he’s certainly not your prototype center. As revken points out and the Red Panda Tournament showed many agree on wanting Moose to develop an 18 foot jumper, I think he already can fill that standard PF role of opening the floor with his passing ability.
The Jerebko situation also brought to mind an even older DBBate that I think was pretty much just between me and MFMP about the virtues of the big SF vs. Tay. Again, I’m on the other side of what I had argued back then. I don’t really get the point of slotting Jerebko to the PF – it made sense when we had our clusterfuck at the 3, but it seems that he and Daye would complement each other nicely there. He brings some great attributes to the position, particularly with his excellent size and rebounding ability, while not really taking anything away. While he may be able to hold his own for the most part at the 4, I just don’t think he has the build to ever really thrive there exclusively. For instance, Maxiell has always been surprisingly good defensively against centers with a big size advantage. Certainly part of that is his great wingspan and leaping ability, but I think his badonkadonk also has a lot to do with it. This is one of the few cases where Jerebko’s mathematically perfect physical proportions are a liability.
Figured maybe it’s just small ball induced PTSD on my part, so was curious what others’ thoughts were on the subject.
by Shinons* on Jul 15, 2011 10:57 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
small ball?
with a stuckey, rip, daye, jerebko, monroe starting lineup you’re looking at an average height of about 6’ 8-9" out of our starters, which has to be the tallest in the league. weights excluded, this obviously wouldn’t qualify as small ball. play some zone with all this length and it could work. the defense is going to suck so might as well.
with a stuckey, rip, daye, jerebko, monroe starting lineup you’re looking at an average height of about 6’ 8-9" out of our starters, which has to be the tallest in the league. weights excluded, this obviously wouldn’t qualify as small ball.
So it wasn’t small ball when we had Tay at power forward during the MCIAFI season?
who was at SG? and SF? we ran out stuckey, gordon, rip, prince, wallace at one point and that would have to be considered small ball. we didn’t have monroe’s height on the team. and jerebko apparently has an even more muscular and picturesque physique than before so no matter what we won’t be as small as we were that season.
if we had a true PF or C i’d slap JJ at SF no problem, but wallace can’t play big minutes so we’re inevitably going to have to deal with what we have and put daye, jj, and monroe in the front court until further notice.
someone could do some research and find out what position jerebko was more productive at that season to make this argument have more weight i suppose.
according to 82games Jerebko was better at both offense and defense as a PF, which i would think makes him a better PF than SF. albeit you could chalk some of that up to small samples and rapid mid-season improvement where he played mostly PF down the stretch.
The way I figure is who would we rather have him matched up with: Artest or Pau? Jefferson or Duncan? Deng or Boozer? Melo or Stoudemire? He’s a guy who can effectively match up with pretty well any SF in the league without giving anything up physically and would have a nice size advantage on most. Is it really making the team better to try making him into a PF? I agree that we have to work with the roster that we have, but that roster also has at least 20 minutes per game that need filled at SF.
While he may have put up better numbers at the 4 than the 3, where is the productivity more effective for the club? For instance, at the 3 he’d be a great rebounder for the position, but at the 4 it’d be Villanueva-esque.
your alternative to Villanueva-esque is Villanueva himself. Daye isn’t a bad rebounder either, in fact, he’s better than Villanueva.
jerebko has no chance on offense matched up against other 3’s. he has no handle and his primary way of getting open was moving without the ball, and other 3’s will have no problem staying with him. he doesn’t have much of a chance on defense at the 3 either, but he’s better than daye. if the goal is to put your players in the best position for success then i think the 4 is where jerebko should play the majority of his time.
if daye was allergic to rebounds like summers then i’d say put jerebko at the 3, but daye can rebound, and he can handle the ball, and he can shoot. problem is he can’t defend, but it’s give or take everywhere you go on this roster.
I'm going to disagree with you on a few of these
Jerebko is up to 240-245…thats about 20 pounds heavier than he was his rookie year so he legitimately has a size and weight advantage against a lot of starting SFs in the league.
As far as handling the ball, just like Monroe, plays were not called for Jerebko in his rookie year so you are correct that most of his possessions and points came off of moving without the ball. But if the way he played last summer for Team Sweden is any indication, Jerebko actually does have pretty good handles for a 2nd year NBA PF and assuming its something he’s been working on, may have a far greater ability to drive to the hoop than he did his rookie year.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
ah yes
the team sweden stats, which were very impressive. he looks like the lebron of sweden, and that’s what gave me such high hopes for him until he hurt his achilles. after watching him play you have to admit those stats were head scratching. i’ve seen him handle the ball and it wasn’t pretty, but if he did develop that skill more it’s a different story.
and after looking at how bad daye truly is at defense a little more in depth i’m not so sure this is a bad thing. we need something to give in terms of a PF candidate. personally i’d rather see both daye and jerebko play a lot, and CV play a little, or not at all. it’s my anti-CV bias, I can’t shake it.
yeah...I mean certainly the opponents were not premium competition
but he played against them in the same way you’d expect a borderline all-star to play against inferior competition…
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
your alternative to Villanueva-esque is Villanueva himself.
Which is why I don’t get this. Why would we want to put Jerebko in a position where is value is essentially the same as Villanueva’s?
Ideally, I’d want to see us develop Jerebko along the lines of Gerald Wallace’s game, a SF who can slide down to PF when needed, rather than Josh Smith, a PF with some perimeter skills.
well
your argument was about Jerebko’s rebounding ability being a boon at SF, but between Daye, Jerebko, and CV – Villanueva is the worst rebounder and Jerebko is the best.
I honestly don’t think there is a good answer to deal with this triumvirate. There isn’t a winning combination.
and to be fair jerebko would have to play with one hand tied behind his back for his value to be essentially the same as Villanueva’s.
the issue is that Jerebko may be the best option at both SF and PF for this team as it’s currently constructed, but you have to figure out both a) where he plays his best at, and b) which of daye or cv cause the least issues at the other spot.
my bet would be that Jerebko is going to play the majority of his minutes at PF, regardless of what his best position may or may not be.
according to 82games Jerebko was better at both offense and defense as a PF
Incorrecto, dr. flies, you might be looking at the numbers wrong. The higher the opponent PER, the worse the defense— at least according to their data. The difference between positional performance is marginal according to 82games, and I don’t trust their stats much anyway.
That's the double-truth, Ruth.
i agree
but i’m not sure where else to find positional stats. the problem with only looking at opponents is that you’re ignoring what jerebko did as a SF or PF on offense. he allowed a slightly higher PER to opponents on defense, but his personal PER as a SF was pathetic, presumably because he was easy for other SF’s to defend, or because he lacked experience at the time he was asked to play SF, or both.
and
i presume those offensive and defensive numbers are something of a rating or points for and against per 100 possessions or something like that. and in that instance he allowed fewer points to PF’s than SF’s. but then again SF’s carry more of a scoring burden in general so him allowing slightly more points to SF’s might be expected.
he allowed fewer points to PF’s than SF’s
isn’t that the opposite of what 82games numbers show?
That's the double-truth, Ruth.
he allowed a higher per to PF’s, but fewer points to them (per 48 min). in other words i suppose you could say he allowed PF’s to be more efficient, but the other team’s didn’t take advantage of this fact enough.
but i’m not sure where else to find positional stats
While it’s not publicly available, Synergy provides play-type stats that gives a good sense of what job description he’s better suited to. He’s solid at defending isolation, but poor at defending post-ups and pick-and-rolls, play-types more commonly ran by bigs than perimeter players. In terms of isolation plays, he showed a lot of promise, only allowing .76 points per possession. In post-ups, he allowed .95 PPP and in p-n-r’s he allowed .92 PPP. With those numbers, it’s pretty easy to see that he’s better suited to defending small forwards.
82games comparative PER, on the other hand, feel like smoke, mirrors and magic moreso than math.
the problem with only looking at opponents is that you’re ignoring what jerebko did as a SF or PF on offense. he allowed a slightly higher PER to opponents on defense, but his personal PER as a SF was pathetic,
See what I already wrote below about how I suggest we use Jerebko.
That's the double-truth, Ruth.
but you can’t control how the defense chooses to matchup with him is the problem with that, a nit-picky problem however.
but you can’t control how the defense chooses to matchup with him is the problem with that, a nit-picky problem however.
The defense is going to force him to play on the perimeter? Are they going to put caution tape around the painted area and not let him in? Even Villanueva can push into the post when he wants. The issue isn’t the defense forcing him to play on the perimeter, that doesn’t have to happen.
That's the double-truth, Ruth.
I like the idea of zoning up in this instance and agree that it could cause all kinds of issues for opposing teams
however we had a huge issue with defensive rebounding last year and as we all know, zone defenses are susceptible to allowing more athletic teams greater opportunity to grab offensive rebounds. With the light-body/less atheltic nature of our frontcourt in this case, I’m concerned that we wouldn’t be able to consistently rebound at the defensive end, especially against more atheltic teams.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
rec'd for DBBate
I like it! And I’m with you on your lineup, more in a second…
That's the double-truth, Ruth.
Frontcourt lineup:
SF: Jerebko
PF: Villanueva
C: Monroe
First, I’m going to get the collective groan about Charlie out of the way now: groan. Thing is though, he’s in this lineup more as a compliment to Jerebko than anything else.
As we all know, Jonas has the offense of a PF and the defense of an SF. He’s poor at defending bigs but solid at defending wing players (Danny Granger shut-down, anyone?). On offense, he can’t create for himself and his perimeter play is shaky at best. With a SF/PF run of Jerebko and Villanueva, they can kind of spell eachother. On offense, Jerebko can switch to PF while Charlie can chunk it from the perimeter, playing as SF. On defense, Jerebko can lock on the wingman while Charlie can somewhat/kind-of-not defend the 4. It would give us a 6’10", 6’11", 6’11" rotation to start. While it sucks to rely on Charlie to defend power forwards, starting him will at least give us the scoring that Jerebko and Monroe may lack, it may highlight Monroe’s passing, and ultimately— it showcases Villanueva and may give us an outside chance at developing trade opportunities.
That's the double-truth, Ruth.
by Mike Payne on Jul 15, 2011 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’d be okay with this, assuming the coaching scheme emphasizes that Jerebko needs to crash the offensive glass the way a PF normally would, given Charlie’s tendency to play outside.
by brgulker on Jul 15, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
does a coach really need to tell Jonas to crash the glass?
Isn’t that like reminding an alcoholic to do a shot?
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Isn’t that like reminding an alcoholic to do a shot?
Ahh fuck, I almost forgot. Thanks Boo!
That's the double-truth, Ruth.
JONAS HAS AN ADDICTION!
HE’S ADDICTED TO BEBOUNDS!
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
He's got a FEVER!
And the only prescription is MORE BEBOUNDS!
(Totally off topic—my wife gave birth to a little girl this morning. I’m a very happy mushroom…)
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Jul 16, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
CONGRATUFUCKINGLATIONS MFMHM!!!
So awesome, congrats to you and your wife, may your new daughter live a happy and healthy life :)
That's the double-truth, Ruth.
Thanks, my virtual friends!
My dream for her is that she makes the WNBA just as Laimbeer returns to coach and he calls her a crack whore! What more could a proud father want?
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Jul 16, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
The DBB Community just got +1'd!
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on Jul 16, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
How’s microsoft’s social network coming along?
WORD PLAY
hollywoodsloce.tumblr.com
by Biz Markie Moon on Jul 16, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
well...skype is being integrated with facebook...is there any reason for MS to develop a social network?
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
no, they’d probably just fuck it up.
That's the double-truth, Ruth.
by Mike Payne on Jul 17, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm not entirely sure what MP was zinging here since I wasn't saying they should.
But hey, M$ cant’ do anything right and their products are doomed to be inferior to their competitors…
IE8 & IE9 Hammer Rivals in Download Blocking Test
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on Jul 18, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Did you know that Windows Operating Systems are the only ones to have ever failed users, ever?
No seriously. In the history of the world, a Mac user has never had a problem with their Mac and it has worked perfectly for them every day, all the time, for ever. Just Back and Forth forever.
In all seriousness though, the blue screen of death never looked so good.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
by The Boourns on Jul 18, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, I take that one back
Even busting Boourns’ balls isn’t worth praising Apple. Fuck that company.
by Shinons* on Jul 18, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
“I would dooo annnything to bustboournsballs, but I wooon’t dooo that!”
That's the double-truth, Ruth.
love that song.
makes me want to drink a dr. pepper.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
お誕生日おめでとう！！
Where broken English happens
by OK from J on Jul 17, 2011 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
in the sort of way where you wish Daye had Maxiell's baby-eating nature or you wish Maxiell had Daye's height?
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I think for this post we're supposed to work with what we've got
Otherwise I’d wish for Villanueva’s salary off our book, Dalembert and a healthy Przybilla for cheap if Ben retires, and a stuffed Beggars Pizza.
A creative solution
This is exactly what I was hoping this discussion would generate – some options beyond what seemed obvious. While CV has obvious weaknesses regarding defense and rebounding, this line-up relies on his offensive ability to compensate for that, along with JJ and Monroe’s efforts on the boards. If CV starts off the game really poorly, we can always sub with someone from the bench – the choice depending on what the opposing line-up is like.
My concern is that this will limit Daye’s minutes and opportunity to develop, and keep Singler mired on the bench. I’m not sold on Singler as a great talent, but I do think he offers some of the same intangibles and hustle that JJ offers.
Beyond developing the young guys, I hope we will luck out with the lottery next year and be able to pick up another great prospect.
Like it
Making lemonade out of lemons. As I recall, CV did play some SF earlier in his career, didn’t he?
by Big Z in Orlando on Jul 18, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
If by SF, you mean "Sassy Flatulator", then yes, yes he did.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
This whole thread reminds me that it's my role to say
That we should keep Wilcox because when he plays decently — which he does, not infrequently — he makes other guys better because they can play their natural positions.
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