Drew Sharp suggests "Big-time NBA free agents won't consider Detroit," but does it even matter?
by Mike Payne on Jan 29, 2012 8:56 PM EST
in Detroit Pistons News
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PrintIn a Detroit Free Press article published yesterday, Drew Sharp suggests that "Big-time NBA free agents don't consider Detroit an option. Never have. Never will." Sharp's article relates to the Tigers recent acquisition of Prince Fielder, and how the writer feels that the Pistons could never strike such luck in free agency. The massive contract the Tigers gave to Fielder "only magnifies the long-range problems facing the Pistons," according to Sharp.
Sharp's article echoes a common sentiment amongst fans that Detroit is short-changed due to its inability to sign big-time NBA free agents. Sharp may in fact be right, but he's wrong in thinking this actually matters when building a winning team. "Big-time NBA free agents" just don't matter with regard to the most important metric by which a team should be judged-- championships.
The cores of the last several championship teams have been built through trades and the draft. The Mavericks drafted Dirk Nowitzki and traded for both Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler. The Lakers before them drafted Andrew Bynum and traded for Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol. All three pieces of San Antonio's core came from the draft. The Celtics drafted Pierce, acquired the draft rights for Rondo and traded for Garnett and Allen. If you go all the way back to the 1989 and 1990 championship Pistons teams, only two teams have acquired a central part of their core with a big-time free agent purchase: the Lakers (Shaq) and the Bulls (Rodman). In both of those statistical outliers, these teams were poised for a championship with a once-in-a-generation superstar in tow.
Let's take the Going-to-Work Pistons for example. They are one of the rare teams that used a five-man core, not the big three style that most teams take to the finals. Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace and Richard Hamilton were all acquired by trade. Tayshaun Prince was acquired through the draft. The only free agent signing that built that core wasn't even remotely "big time", he was signed for less than the mid-level exception with little competition in the free agent market. Chauncey Billups reflects the shrewd free agent acquisitions where smart GMs buy real, underexposed talent with below-average contracts. That's the kind of move they make movies about nowadays...
When looking at the history of NBA champions, we can learn two things about "big-time NBA free agents". In both cases, Drew Sharp's declarative statement that Detroit "never will" sign a superstar is misguided, and frankly it just doesn't matter. The first thing we can learn is that while the evidence does suggest these superstars sign with big market teams, they also only sign with contending teams that already have a superstar. The second is that big-time NBA free agents win less championships than teams built through the draft and by trades.
Yes, you could argue that big-time free agents prefer to sign with teams in big markets with dope clubs. Personally, I don't buy this argument. If I'm a superstar in free agency, I value my own legacy more than the local party scene. I'm already traveling across the country 41 times a year anyway. If I have the opportunity to join a team that is on the brink of a championship and they have a once-in-a-generation superstar in their ranks, I'm signing there and I will even take a discount to do so. If Detroit ever grabs one superstar by draft or trade, a winning Pistons team will be a top free agent destination.
Second, the truth is that an inability to bring in star free agents doesn't matter. The Going to Work Pistons are a prime example, and so is pretty much every team that has won a championship in my lifetime.
At the end of the day, NBA teams should always look to build through the draft and through trades, and cap space should be used on extensions first, while free agent signings are tertiary and should rarely require more than the MLE. That’s how the Pistons did it in 2004, that’s how winning GMs have always done it. If big-time NBA free agents don't want to come here to Detroit, that's perfectly fine with me. Historically, Detroit has been better off without them...
(hat tip to V. for the link in the comments)
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I realize Drew Sharp gets paid to write and this is a silly thing to say, but shut the fuck up, man.
Freep’s resident pessimist asshole. What an insufferable shit he is. I wish he would move to another state.
Free Agency really hinges on things like Ownership, Management, and the existing roster.
Dumars thinks he’s actually rebuilding now as opposed to fuck, the last 3 years? Fine. Get your rebuild on, #4. We all know this is your last stand. Clean slate with Gores. Some nice young talent on the roster.
Fix this fuckin’ mess and defy guys like Drew Sharp. Bullshit. Every Detroit sports team has talent other teams would kill for, and the only team that gets excluded from that statement is the Pistons. But it’s fine. They doubted us in 2004 and they’re doubting the fuck out of us eight years later.
It’s a cliche, but the ball is in Dumars’ court. It’s in Frank’s court. It’s in Moose and Knight and Jerebko’s court. You do the right things and we’ll all watch as star players sign in Detroit.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
Discount Double Choke, 2011 Packers.
by Skylar on Jan 29, 2012 9:08 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I don’t read Sharp, really. It’s not that I have an opinion on him one way or another yet, although this is not the first thing I’ve disagreed with that he’s said. Off topic, and funny enough, Matt Watson, Drew Sharp and I all went to the same Detroit area high school. Overall, though, MFSKY I agree with your sentiment and see the red, white and royal blue that runs in your veins from all the way down here in Tampa.
You do the right things and we’ll all watch as star players sign in Detroit.
Another aspect of my article, and why I wanted to write this, is because I don’t really want Detroit to sign star players in free agency. Free agent stars are far more often overpaid than not. If we give big money to any player, it better be in a contract extension to a star player we’ve signed or drafted. Otherwise, you’re more likely to fuck up your salary profile than you are to put together a winner.
True Dat
Winning in the NBA is about value.
The chances that you get value out of your Max-contract signings is significantly less than the chances that you get value out of your mid-level exception type signings.
Basically, the more big contracts you sign, the closer to perfect you have to be in all of your decisions. You basically paint yourself into a corner.
by Big Z in Orlando on Jan 30, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Genuine superstars (Lebron/Howard/Paul/Durant) are worth way more than their max-contracts. “Stars” that are actually just one-dimensional scorers (cough, Melo, cough) are not worth anything close to what they tend to be paid.
I certainly wouldn't argue with that
But many GM’s have difficulty in identifying who legitimately deserves that max contract and who does not.
No one would argue that Lebron/Howard/Paul/Durant are of the same value as Arenas/Lewis/Joe Johnson, yet they were all signed to a max contract.
Because Arenas/Lewis/Joe Johnson were signed to max contracts, they screw their team much more so than a mid-level exception guy who isn’t performing up to his contract. This was my point.
by Big Z in Orlando on Jan 31, 2012 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
About Drew
Drew reminds me in style of George Puscas, who wrote for the Freep for many years. Puscas seemed to take sadomasochistic delight in ripping the Lions, except that if he had balls, he’d have done the unthinkable and rip WCF II (which didn’t start happening until Bill Ford started being involved with the team) instead of the parade of claimer GMs who ran the team incompetently (Russ Thomas lasted an entire career with WCF, for example). Take any silver lining, Puscas would find a cloud.
Drew has cred with me, and is a better writer than you think, but he does get off a little too much on being negative. I remember when he got the scoop on Carlisle’s firing, and was getting reamed pretty good by the national media (who apparently weren’t in on the scoop) well, Carlisle just got named COY and he’s getting canned? until it actually happened. Over the years, he’s served as a Dumars mouthpiece, I am certain Dumars leaked the Carlisle story to him, but this column was more about Drew being Drew and not really about anything else.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Jan 29, 2012 10:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well, I certainly can't knock Sharp for being negative
since, you know, the whole drunk and surly thing…
by Mike Payne on Jan 29, 2012 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Drew Is Just Negative
He doesn’t need alcohol for be surly.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Jan 29, 2012 10:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Page views
Honestly, the more I read from the Detroit Sports Media, the more I think they’re about generating page views through controversy than anything else.
If it’s clear that the aforementioned is opinion, not investigative journalism, I’m totally fine with that. However, I don’t think that is clearly the case
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Depends On Who You Read
You know…if they’re really talented (exception noted below), they end up with a better job in a major market, or write nationally.
I hated Rob Parker, who deservedly got fired from the News, only to fall into a better job with ESPN covering his hometown NY teams.
Drew, I’ve discussed at length here.
Wojo, I don’t mind, but I can predict what he’s going to write in my sleep.
Terry Foster I liked more in the past, before he discovered Twitter and blogging. Less is more with Terry.
Mitch used to be a great columnist, now every column reads like a potential screenplay. He still has his moments, but too often these days he can be annoying just from the schmaltz angle.
I’ve touted V Goodwill in the past, he needs to get off Twitter and grow up a little bit. I mean, @vgoodshill isn’t even that funny, it’s the same joke over and over again. Dude, if you’re reading this, just use it to link to your articles and who gives a fuck what the public thinks. No one is 100% loved anyways. Not even Mother Teresa.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
As I suggested in my initial response
Prince signed in Detroit because he was Detroit overpaid him. Prince Fielder is a very powerful hitter and an intimidating presence in the lineup. I’m not happy about having to face him. But Prince Fielder is not a star. The Tigers paid a shit-ton of money for a big lefty to be big and hit a lot of dingers. Maybe that’s the key piece that puts them over the top, I dunno. But it is what it is: overpaying for excitement and a sexy stat.
I also mentioned that comparing free agent signings in the MLB and NBA is stupid to begin with for a ton of reasons. One of them: it’s tough to swoop in and overpay the exciting free agent in whatever off-season to move in the NBA. But when it happens, it’s super awesome. You get Rashard Lewis, Eddy Curry, Elton Brand,…Ben Gordon.
Prince Signing Is A Little More Complicated...
….they’re going to market this as a homecoming, and they’re going to recoup quite a bit in ticket sales. Also, Mr. I seems to have been personally fond of him as a child.
Let me offer this one thought about the Scott Boras-Mr. I relationship. The relationship seems like Boras is a stripper in the Champagne Room of a Vegas strip club (where nothing really happens, unlike the ones, say…ummm…elsewhere lol) and Mr. I is a high roller. That’s how the media paints it. But Illitch has gotten value from every Boras FA signing, pretty much every Boras FA here has played to their contract, if not better (more like the Champagne Room in a “friendlier” city lol). I don’t expect anything less with Prince, either.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
Snowy owls flock to Mich. in unusual numbers
They all sayin ORLY?
Magglio?
Thanks by the way – I saw that story today and was totally itching to use it :)
No. 5 in OPS in all of baseball last year; No. 2 at 1B (behind Miguel Cabrera); No. 12 in all of baseball dating back to his rookie year in 2005 (and that list includes Barry Bonds, Manny Ramirez, and two others who are now retired or without a team)
How about
In the 5 years since his rookie season, he’s been an all-star in three of them, and finished top-4 in MVP voting in three of them (and 20th in MVP voting in a fourth season). He’s a star.
Scott Hastings was the greatest player in the league in Bulls vs. Lakers.
Right, if he's DH then that works
But he was one of the worst defensive first basement in the league last year. Because of that, I don’t consider him even close to the likes of Pujols, Gonzalez, or Teixeira. Even looking strictly at OPS, (pulling out his rookie year) he’s had 3 seasons under .900, three over (although two monsters). That’s Paul Konerko territory. I love me some Paulie, but wouldn’t consider him a star.
Three/five seasons of 152+ wRC+
Konerko has one in his lengthy career.
Last five seasons on the wRC+ list, you’ve got Pujols, Cabrera, Votto, Braun, Holliday, and then Fielder. Sure, he’s an embarrassingly-bad defender, but he’s an absolutely elite offensive player…unless you’re of the opinion that Magic wasn’t a great player…
Scott Hastings was the greatest player in the league in Bulls vs. Lakers.
My lying eyes
I made my Magic reference off the cuff, relying solely on visual evidence that indicated Magic’s indifference and inability with respect to guarding opposing PGs. After your comment, I decided to look at some numbers, and was devastated to learn that Magic not only posted some excellent Defensive Win Shares numbers throughout his career, but also that Joe Dumars was kind of mediocre, and certainly worse than Carmelo Anthony. I clearly have to learn how to reconcile my eyes with advanced basketball statistics.
Scott Hastings was the greatest player in the league in Bulls vs. Lakers.
Looking strictly at OPS, he's a star
Yeah, Fielder’s bad at 1B but was still top half amongst 1B in DRS last year and the best was only 8 runs better. I think Fielder more than compensates with his bat.
I wouldn’t be shocked if Fielder sees more time than not at DH over the next 9 years, too
Yeah, I'd be shocked if he didn't see more time than not at DH
Either that, or Cabrera. But if the Tigers for some reason decide that both of those two need to be on the field at the same time this season with V-Mart out? I think we’d all put that in the bad idea box.
I still don’t agree that strictly looking at OPS he’s a star. Strictly looking at his OPS, he’s been a star every other year. .870 range is still good and all, but that’s generally outside the top 20 for the league. If someone’s a star just based on his bat I think there should be more consistency.
Or it could be that I’m just pessimistic because this one team I like recently signed a big lefthanded dude who also had an OPS well above .900 over the previous five years, averaged 39 homers per year, and had mixed results from the move.
Ahh...you're the guy
Who likes the White Sox. I’ve heard about their fan.
Scott Hastings was the greatest player in the league in Bulls vs. Lakers.
fair enough
Big Donkey’s kind of a different monster, though, because he’s never hit over .270 and has always struck out at high rates. That said, I love him and wish he hadn’t signed with the pale hose (you know, before he decided to hit like he did this last season). I’ve got some good stories about him through a good friend of mine whose sister married the hitting coach of the Nationals. Apparently Dunn had a come to jabu meeting with him in the offseason, so maybe he’ll have a turnaround year. It’s ridiculous he hit 40 HR on the nose 4 years in a row like he did
Although I do concede with you
That having Cabby and Fielder playing defense at the same time is a rather horrendous idea.
I’ll also concede we overpayed, but that doesn’t mean he’s not a star.
Our own recent free agent signings make your point
Our big signings were Gordon and CV, and they’ve yet to make a significant positive impact on our performance. If we’d simply kept Amir Johnson and Aaron Afflalo instead, does anyone think we’d be a worse team now?
precisely, a total failure in free agency
Speaking of Amir and Afflalo, I wrote this last year (about last season, when the “were starters” point was still relevant):
Here is Joe’s trade history over the last five years, in order of recency:
Traded Arron Afflalo for a second round pick.
Traded Amir Johnson for Fabricio Oberto.
Traded Chauncey Billups, Antonio McDyess for Allen Iverson.
Traded Nazr Mohammad for Primoz Brezec and Walter Herrmann.
Traded Maurice Evans for the draft selection of Cheikh Samb.
Note that all of the players Joe traded away are still in the league. Note that all of the players Joe acquired are not. In fact, note that all of the players Joe traded away were starters this last season.
I remember this post!
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Jan 30, 2012 6:44 AM EST up reply actions
Dumars' Mistake
Was in making the moves out of order, and misjudging how much pull he had with ownership. He apparently forgot who really ran the Palace (Tom Wilson) and why his first coach got fired (because Wilson got rightly banned from practice because he was bringing in clients and Wilson bitched to Davidson about it-if not for that Carlisle would likely still be coaching here today).
He had signed BG without having an approved deal in place for Rip (although I suspect someone in ownership backdoored him there, I do believe the Rip for Boozer trade was a go, made perfect sense), and CV was going to be a 21st Century version of VJ. So now, Dumars has to clean up the abortion, which leads to makeover #3.
Since we’re in clear tank mode, you shouldn’t criticize any move which gets us to .500, because that’s not the goal here. I’m ok with tanking, you should be too (I find it hilarious how much better the team seems to play when Tay’s not in the lineup-Tay is still a good player, but just a terrible fit on this team and belongs to play for DAL or LAC-and maybe that will happen before the year’s out). CV looks like he’s going to be shelved because of the ankle situation, this is a freak injury which will actually clear cap space. It’s like an Act of God break.
So, you get a quality big in the draft, you give JJ a chance at the 3 where he deserves to play, BK develops, you may have something here (IMO there is nothing wrong with the guard rotation that having a quality big in the middle won’t fix). But whoever they draft, Davis, hopefully..must come up big.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
So, you get a quality big in the draft, you give JJ a chance at the 3 where he deserves to play, BK develops, you may have something here
I wish I could share your optimism, and I mean that with all honesty. The problem with JJ is that he still needs to develop a wing player’s offense, which he doesn’t have. His iso/spot-up game remains quite poor. His problem during his rookie year was that he had the offensive game of a power forward but a defensive game suited to the 3. That remains. Playing him at small forward will make Jerebko the offensive liability he is on the other end of the floor at the 4.
As for Knight, that development might take four years if history is any indicator.
The problem in Detroit is that we have problems all over the place. We don’t have a shooting guard who can defend his position. We don’t have a point guard who can pass. We have one big man of merit. Beyond that, we’ve got junk, junk, junk. IME, we still can’t rebuild this house until we empty the junk that’s cluttering its interior. We’re several moves away from rebuilding, just like we were last year.
"defensive game suited to the 3"
more important imo than playing the 4. You have enough offensive weapons on the team, especially when the offense eventually goes through Moose, which it should be already.
But I agree, his spot up game needs a lot of work, and his post up game is nonexistant. But maybe it’s not a necessary thing. Defense wins rings, and he’s a good defender and rebounder as a 3.
Knight would have highly benefited from a real training camp and summer league. He gets those next year. This entire year should be counted as a mulligan for pretty much everyone, it’s so fucked up on so many levels.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
More than a few teams have been successful with SFs who did nothing but play D and shoot corner 3s. JJ can do that.
by -PS- on Jan 29, 2012 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes it did. Plus, JJ’s height and athleticism suggest that he could approach Bowen’s defensive abilities.
I don’t know if JJ could ever approach this defensive ability.
by garrettelliott on Jan 30, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
<3
Cinnamon and sugary as softly spoken lies, you never know just how you look through other peoples' eyes
by SpursfanSteve on Jan 30, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
I’m going to the game in March when we retire his jersey!
I’m so excited.
Cinnamon and sugary as softly spoken lies, you never know just how you look through other peoples' eyes
by SpursfanSteve on Jan 30, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
The NBA: Where Bruce Bowen gets a jersey retired happens.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Sad thing is:
The most national coverage the Spurs have gotten has been because they did that.
Cinnamon and sugary as softly spoken lies, you never know just how you look through other peoples' eyes
by SpursfanSteve on Jan 31, 2012 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
I agree, I’d rather have Jerebko at the 3 even though he’s not ideal there on offense.
Knight would have highly benefited from a real training camp and summer league. He gets those next year. This entire year should be counted as a mulligan for pretty much everyone, it’s so fucked up on so many levels.
I give you Kyrie Irving as exhibit A. I have an article forthcoming about what Pistons fans can expect about the development of Brandon Knight, and that we’re all due a lot of patience if we’re going to give him what he needs to succeed.
Yeah, definitely several moves away from rebuilding
But I am optimistic though. We were fine with Tay as a fourth option on the offensive end, so I’m comfortable with the idea of Jonas never lighting the world on fire on that end. If we put Knight in a position he could succeed in, that timeline could accelerate.
We’ve certainly got a lot of junk, but personally I’d like to see us add more junk. Absolutely, let’s get rid of Tay, Villanueva, and Gordon whenever we can – and it’s a shame to both the team and Bynum that Dumars hasn’t already moved him to a team that can give him a chance to compete for playing time. But the Russell and Wilkins moves are the type that piss me off. We need a D-League guard? Oh hey, let’s check out the Idaho Stampede.
I’ll repeat it ad naseum: give me young players. I’ll take a potentially crappy young player over a definitely crappy old player any day.
Regarding JJ's offense
The problem with JJ is that he still needs to develop a wing player’s offense, which he doesn’t have. His iso/spot-up game remains quite poor. His problem during his rookie year was that he had the offensive game of a power forward but a defensive game suited to the 3.
I think you’re right about these shortcomings, but I think they’re largely mitigated by running the offense through Moose.
JJ is good at two things that complement Monroe’s game well:
1) Three-point shooting (he’s not great, but serviceable). But more importantly…
2) JJ is fantastic at moving without the basketball. And he doesn’t need any screens to do it.
Couple that with Monroe’s passing skills, and I think it works.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
by brgulker on Jan 30, 2012 10:44 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Definitely
JJ is fantastic at moving without the basketball. And he doesn’t need any screens to do it.
These two have shown some real flashes of chemistry for this very reason.
by Big Z in Orlando on Jan 30, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Who Cares If We Do?
You want guys of high character, and not just characters playing for you. The only two FAs I would have been interested in were MGasol and Jordan, and note their teams way overpaid for them (which begs the question, this is why we had a lockout?)
This little experiment where superstars get together and try to figure out where they’re going to play is going to end badly. MIA’s window of opportunity is soon closing, and depends not on LBJ, but on DWade, who is just starting the downside of his career and is injury prone. NYK is a joke. LAC has talent, I really like parts of this team but is too unbalanced. Which kind of proves Mike’s point (well, it was my point too…)
For the next couple of years, get used to OKC v CHI or MIA in the Finals. If LBJ gets his ring, it’s this year, and only if Dick Bavetta is working every game lol.
What I thought Mike would do would be to compare the construction of the current champs, the Mavs to the original Bad Boys; there’s quite a few similarities how the two teams were built, specifically in terms of the rotation-both teams could go 11 deep if necessary. That’s always been to my mind how you construct a championship basketball team. If it worked for Jack McCloskey, whose name hangs in the rafters at the Palace, it’s good enough for me.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
You want guys of high character, and not just characters playing for you.
Rick Mahorn, Dennis Rodman, Bill Laimbeer, Rasheed Wallace…
It’s strange to me that Dumars wants to make the character argument so often. I’m not saying the aforementioned Bad Boys were bad human beings. I am saying, however, that they weren’t known for their sportsmanship and character during their playing days.
Winning covers a multitude of sins. Arguing that you’re drafting/signing “high character” sounds like a loser’s argument to me.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Arguing that you’re drafting/signing "high character" sounds like a loser’s argument to me.
Agreed. I don’t think I could care less about character unless a player is detrimental to the team. If you’re productive on court and not a dickhead off court, we’re good. The focus should be on avoiding red flag players (Iverson, Artest, Cousins), not trying to build a team of nice guys.
In Today's NBA
“high character” = not a dickhead (Gulks, I don’t agree with the conclusion, but I don’t disagree with the sentiment)
Most NBA players are actually decent guys. But being a decent guy isn’t headline worthy.
It takes all kinds…I remember this guy, forget his name but he was a reserve SF for the Warriors, I was at the Mirage one day, he was sitting on the lawn near north valet with his g/f, and he asked me to sit down with him, we were just chatting about random stuff. It was a nice visit. I tend to leave those types of people alone, they need their space (I need mine, too).
Then there’s Mark Blount, he’d head over to Mohegan Sun after games, I’d be in the check in line with him (we both had this habit of checking in at 1a lol), and he’d just stare at me. I also bumped into Manute Bol a few times at Mohgean, at Foxwoods, in AC…everyone loved Manute, and everyone knows the things he did to raise money for people in his home country. The one downside with Manute was that he was a sick gambler, and did a lot of those crazy stunts for a payday. He left us way too soon.
I remember Patrick Ewing holding an elevator door open for a grandma in a walker. That impressed me, not because it was him doing it, but because you see common courtesy in public less and less these days.
Compared to AI, who wasted no time getting thrown out of every casino in Detroit, but probably not until he lost a couple of million. AI is kind of my definition of knucklehead…he’s a guy who probably has made close to a quarter B between salary and endorsements, and is broke; similar to Antoine Walker, who is playing int he D League when he should have retired 3-4 years ago (Antoine was also a regular at Mohegan, we had the same host, I sent her a congratulatory e mail when he got traded back to Boston).
I actually like Artest, I like his heart. He would have fit in fine on the Bad Boys. I kind of get why he is the way he is.
Sheed has a very high basketball IQ, it’s a shame he didn’t use it all the time on the court. He’s also a devoted family man, and that has currency to me. If he’d only remembered to guard Horry in game 5…
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
I think the "character" issue misses the real point
It’s not whether the player is a nice guy or not, its whether or not they are dedicated to their job above everything else. CV by all accounts is a really nice guy, but he isn’t the kind of guy we want here because he is lazy as hell. Rodman was crazy, but he worked his ass off and would do anything to win. Hell, Jordan was a total douche but he refused to take a minute off. We need players who will work hard and work together no matter how crazy things get off the court.
My federal building is way cooler than your federal building.
An important distinction is that baseball does not have a cap (something TV20 didn’t seem to understand at the Prince Fielder press conference). If Mr. I is willing to throw $214 million at a slugger, that’s his prerogative, and probably a good bet to land anyone, as long as he can afford to sign other pieces, which he has done.
Completely agree with revken above, too — we signed two of the top 12 free agents in the summer 2009. That has worked out great!
It's about improving your team
Are the Detroit Tigers better off with Prince Fielder or without him?
This is a no brainer.
The defense issue will work itself out, and Fielder’s offense will more than make up for any defense issues.
The money issue isn’t an issue unless Illitch decides it is. He obviously doesn’t feel it is at this point.
by Big Z in Orlando on Jan 30, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed, there are few players in NBA history that can change the fate of a franchise single handed. Unfortunately, they are a whole gang of players that GM’s can sign to convince season ticket holders to re-up for a few seasons. These big free agent signings are usually going to result in little more than the snazzy marketing campaigns that immediately follow. What makes a championship team is committing the other 11 guys to playing the right way, there aren’t shortcuts where that is involved.
Welcome... to the Wallace-hood
The mercenary approach just seems to work pretty poorly in the NBA – systems and cohesiveness seem to be such driving factors in NBA success that I’m hesitant to think that any FA would ever be a cure-all…Lebron/Durant would be close, but we’re still a one-and-done in the playoffs with them. The NY experiment is all the evidence I need to understand that building through FA can work in baseball, but has no business in basketball. Yes, it can work in Miami, when you can fill your lineup with three transcedent stars, but that’s a once a generation likelihood.
Scott Hastings was the greatest player in the league in Bulls vs. Lakers.
The NY experiment is all the evidence I need to understand that building through FA can work in baseball, but has no business in basketball.
In defense of the Knicks, their apparent strategy was to bring home that hot chick from the club whilst hoping that the bulge in her pants was just a weird shadow and not, in fact, a dick.
by Mike Payne on Jan 30, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Funny
I keep thinking that one day Carmelo will use all of his gifts to make me really angry that we drafted Darko over him. Right now, I’m still happy that he didn’t end up in a Pistons uniform, pissing away 2004 with a series of poor defensive efforts in game 6 v. the Nets.
Scott Hastings was the greatest player in the league in Bulls vs. Lakers.
My Analogy Would Be Different
It would be more like, banging a stripper in the Champagne Room without a condom when everyone knows your famous, and voila, about 6 weeks later like clockwork-she hit the jackpot-she’s pregnant-and guess who’s paying child support for the next 18 years?
In other words, you got exactly what you wanted, then you got what you deserved.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
Self Rec'd For "Your"
We need spellcheck or to be able to edit posts lol.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
Aww, c'mon
I like piling on this Knicks team as much as anybody, but if you’re singling out someone, it shouldn’t be the guy having one of the most efficient seasons in recent memory who’s force of will is the only thing keeping them from being a bottom-five team. It should be Amar’e, the other high-priced free agent who’s currently shooting in the low 40’s.
How's that for a slice of fried gold?
by Thom not Tom Gores on Jan 30, 2012 2:45 AM EST reply actions
Carmelo is a total shithead of an NBA player, fools gold to the core. But to his defense, I was talking about Amar’e when I said this:
In defense of the Knicks, their apparent strategy was to bring home that hot chick from the club whilst hoping that the bulge in her pants was just a weird shadow and not, in fact, a dick.
whoops, I meant "I wasn't talking about Carmelo when I said this"
(and MFBOOM, you know me well enough to know that I wouldn’t dare put anything on Chandler for his play of late)
He's been a monster
Now, I don’t know how much of that is that he has to sometimes (most of the time) be the third scorer (Melo one, then Stat or Shumpert at 2 depending on the night, then Tyson) on a shitty team with 1 and a half all-stars, but his free throws… wow. He fixed that right up.
My bad
Assumed that Melo’s .394 FG% on 20 shots per game from the SF/PF spot might have been the guy you were referring to. Somehow forgot that Amare has been worse. That said, I don’t blame him as much – he’s never created his own shots, but the Knicks have decided to employ Helen Keller and Stephen Hawking as PGs this year.
Scott Hastings was the greatest player in the league in Bulls vs. Lakers.
The Knicks backcourt
doesn’t look much worse than ours. Douglas, Shumpert, and Fields. Those guys might even be better as a whole unit than Knight, Stuckey, and Gordon, and cost what? Almost nothing. Everyone likes to rip on the Knicks backcourt but it has about as much talent and potential as ours at a fraction of the cost.
Sure, but
If you’re going to bring in Anthony & Stoudemire, don’t you want more than potential in the backcourt?
Douglas, Shumpert, Bibby & Lin (the four PGs) have combined for a per-36 of 4.2 assists and 3.0 TOs, while shooting 34% from the field and 28% from three. I get that the Knicks are attempting to run the offence through the uber-efficient Anthony, but even 61 year old Derek Fisher has posted nicer per-36s, and he touches the ball fewer times than my wife has, post-kids.
Scott Hastings was the greatest player in the league in Bulls vs. Lakers.
I don’t expect any PGs who play with a combination of Melo and Amare to get many assists because those two have the ball in their hands for the majority of the possessions.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
I see nothing wrong with that strategy.
"trout jefferson is using multiple numbers and no swears. I barely recognize you man." - Kurt Mensching
by Trout Jefferson on Jan 30, 2012 4:27 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
b!tch ninja! Drew reminds me of Al Sharpton.
No disrespect to the civil rights movement. But when someone claims a platform. And at the end of their lil’ speech, tirade or what have you. You find yourself asking WTF does this Guy stand for? That’s Drew to me. Nothing but Pomp and Circumstance. He’s been around long enough to know the MFK’n blueprint. I don’t get how a so-called writer for Detroit Sports finds the Fortitude to diss Detroit’s most important team on a continual and subliminal basis. I say F*ck him. I rather wade through the bull that Langolis spews than listen to a pansy ass Drew Sharp. I never respected the Guy. And never sought to hear his take on anything Detroit related. Whaddup Sky? long time, no see. Hope all is well with You and yours.
Formerly known as SCNTFC!
I know I'm late to the party, but does anyone really expect to learn anything from Drew?
The man writes short articles that feature a quick trigger, attention-grabbing focus, and then a heavy dose of opinion supported by little in the way of factual information. I will easily admit that the best thing I’ve done is to simply stop reading the BS that passes for his columns…he actually makes me pine for the days of Rob Parker!
by CoreyMichaelDC on Jan 30, 2012 11:38 AM EST reply actions
Anyone else noticed that almost all the players “wanting to play in big markets/refusing to sign extensions/etc” are all straight from high school to NBA players? Or at least the ones making the most noise?
I dislike Chris Paul, but he treated NO classy- never made a fuss, never made his upcoming FA a big deal. Compare that to Lebron, Howard, A’m’a’r’e’ and what Kobe did a few years ago with the trade demands.
To me, it seems like in general players who go to college end up more mature than the ones who didn’t.
Cinnamon and sugary as softly spoken lies, you never know just how you look through other peoples' eyes
Rodney Dangerfield agrees!
Stay in school, kids!
by garrettelliott on Jan 30, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
MJ Had A Great Comment About LeBron
You know, LBJ is the way he is because he was raised mostly by his mother, not his father. I suspect there’s a lot of truth to that.
MJ is just a cold blooded assassin, he’s not that way if his dad (who had the habit of hanging out with absolutely the wrong people) wasn’t around.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Jan 30, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
Co Sign. He still Has Major Presence In the Winston/Lewisville, (NC) area.
I respect anyone that Doesn’t forget where they come from, While simutaneously remembering where they are at.
Formerly known as SCNTFC!
I dislike Chris Paul,
How can one dislike Chris Paul? He’s one of the few superstars that doesn’t make me want to puke.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
sigh
This is going to sound completely hypocritical, and it is, in fact.
He once intentionally kicked Bruce Bowen in the back while Bruce was down, and he also whines and flops all the time.- as much or more than Manu and Varajao.
I will say this, though- he’s not near as bad as he used to be. It’s likely my opinion of him will continue to change over time. I don’t hate him like I do Punk Bitch Kevin Garnett or Ray Allen.
Cinnamon and sugary as softly spoken lies, you never know just how you look through other peoples' eyes
by SpursfanSteve on Jan 31, 2012 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
the problem with this
is that real legit stars rarely if ever actually hit free agency. shaq and lebron are about the only two that straight up signed somewhere else. hill and mcgrady could maybe count. more likely you have to either draft or make shrewd trades to acquire a star. you can’t pray for salvation to come via free agency. after this summer i honestly don’t know when the next star is going to be approaching free agency anyway.
I can not hate
But this was a damn good read here dude.And I agree 100% with most of this.I will admit that it would be hard to get a star by FA in our current situation,when we were a great team,we would be a top choice for most stars in Free agency.We just didn’t need them at that time,because our team was in place.I know AI was aquired by trade,but he was a superstar (at that time) who actually wanted to be here.While Rasheed wasn’t a superstar he still was a great player and he wanted to be here.I believe that’s only because we were winning,so I agree with drafting a star will make other stars want to be here in Detroit.
by Roco on Jan 30, 2012 3:43 PM EST via mobile reply actions
What's the difference between a star and a superstar?
Money? Ego? Consistent production over at least several years? I think the main point that’s been well made here is that superstars often aren’t worth the money in terms of what they actually bring to your team. Billips was not a superstar – not even a star – when we signed him. He was a guy who had just begun to come into his own, and he continued to get better while with us, becoming one of the best point guards in the league. Ben Wallace wasn’t a star, either, but he became one of the league’s best centers with us. Those were great and/or lucky moves for us, and the main reason why we won a title and had all those great years. We didn’t have the best player at any position, but we had the best starting line-up when we won the title. That and they had meshed as a team.
This is a little bit hyperbole, but I’d say a superstar is a guy who consistently wins games for his team, almost by himself. I’d say you can probably count on one hand the number of guys in the league who can do that.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
You’re right about free agency in general. It doesn’t equal championships in any sport. If it did, the Redskins would be at the top of the heap almost every year, especially in the last decade.
The problem with assessing how to win in the NBA … it’s how different it is from every other league. NBA’s a much different bird. You can’t really compare NFL, MLB, NHL to it, in terms of how to build a successful team. Mostly, the other leagues don’t have great obstacles put into the CBA that prohibit the speed of progress.
None of the other leagues have anything remotely like the stupid price-matching rules on trades. Nobody else has a soft cap with a too-low-middle ceiling that prohibits teams from signing meaningful players to meaningful contracts once they go over that soft cap number. Compared to the other pro leagues, the NBA market is perpetually stunted. It punishes teams with bad contracts way more than any other sport, and as a result, the rich teams stay rich. Nobody else has a draft lottery that routinely shuts the worst team in the league out of grabbing the best available player.
Detroit isn’t going to attract a Prince Fielder of basketball because they don’t have the price-matching ‘assets’ to land one in trade, nor are they going to have the cap space to go out and throw a max contract at one any time soon. Assuming those two stupid ass rules were deaded, Drew becomes partially right in the sense that Detroit isn’t as pretty as South Beach or Santa Monica right now.
The rub is, neither is NYC, but they still manage to land name-brand players. Sure, Metro Detroit isn’t the size of NYC, but in terms of metropolitan areas, we just got overtaken by Boston’s metro area in population, and we’re in the top 15 (formerly top ten). The top 15 is still very very big potatoes, in comparison to a bumpkin patch like Charlotte or New Orleans or Orlando or OKC.
So I’m saying that market attractiveness isn’t lacking when approaching top talent. We lose some of our appeal in a fight with NYC LA or Chicago (especially Chicago), but it’s better than Cleveland or Milwaukee or Indianapolis.
We aren’t going to attract that talent, first and foremost, because Joe Dumars considers value in Darko Milicics in the draft, and he considers value in Charlie Villanuevas and Ben Gordons in free agency, and he considers value in Allen Iversons in trades, when in reality, hindsight be damned, there was no value to consider. We are triple-fucked as fans because of the Pistons front office, ownership included (provided that Gores doesn’t go in a new direction at GM any time soon, and we’re still talking about Joe D’s bad future moves 8 years from now). Until they get someone who can recognize that buy-low talent, who sells high for the next big thing, and can put the draft picks, the free agents, and the trades into a sensible roster, we are going to have to invest in a lot of fucking Snickers.
Drew Sharp’s annoyingly and partially right, the Pistons won’t attract anyone in the NBA, but it’s deeper than the superficial column he put together.
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
otherthingers
The solution to getting better in every league, places where they all match, is smart drafting. Detroit Tigers don’t net Cabreras and Fielders if they don’t draft Verlander and similar talents to trade for something of value. Detroit Lions don’t make the playoffs if they keep missing the Calvin Johnsons. Wings? Pavel Datsyuk, 6th round pick. Zetterberg? 7th round pick. Lidstrom? 3rd round pick. Franzen? 3rd round pick. Holmstrom? 10th round. All of these guys, Detroit’s own draft picks. You could say that it’s damn near impossible to hit on all that talent as often as they do, and I’d agree, not many teams in particular can do what the Wings do, so they’re an outlier of success in the drafting department imo, but again, all three of these teams drafted big time players who became a large part of their current success.
The Pistons were another outlier of success because they put together a powerhouse out of other teams’ garage sales. It was only after they got decent that they lucked into getting Rasheed for next to nothing, and he was a quasi-star at the time. I don’t think you can repeat that blueprint, much like I don’t think you can have as much success drafting as the Wings have had.
The Lions are a good team to look at in terms of night and day. Millen in the seat, who did we keep taking? Terrible fucking talent from top to bottom in every draft he oversaw. Yes there was Calvin Johnson, but the majority of his drafts were filled with guys who couldn’t hack it in our system or couldn’t hack it in the NFL at all. Other teams comparatively kept most or all of their players from a particular draft for upwards of 4-5 seasons, and if they didn’t keep them, the players stuck elsewhere. Millen was great at finding no value in every round of the drafts he presided.
Then you get Mayhew, and while he may not be the best GM in the league, he’s way better than Millen because he doesn’t routinely make the dumbest choice you could possibly make when acquiring talent. Not that it’s fair comparing any GM to Millen, but really, Millen was a fucking genius in terms of how often he’d make the most incorrect decision. Someone throwing darts at a dartboard representing multiple choices, or someone using a jump to conclusions mat would have a better showing from being completely random in the process. You have to strive to build something as bad as Millen did.
What’s one thing that Dumars has always been questionable with? Drafting. What do they never do? Get help with making decisions in the draft. They obviously don’t study enough data, or the right data, since the NBA isn’t as much of a guesswork mystery in predicting talent as the NFL is. In a league 2nd to the MLB in terms of quantifiable data on hand, it seems like nobody in the Pistons front office knows squat one about figuring out the right thing to do, draft-wise.
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
Dumars draft record is a mixed bag
He’s made some good moves and some bad ones, but so have most other GMs. Can’t say he’s “always been questionable” when he picked Monroe, who is now being considered the top guy from the 2010 draft, or Jerebko, who was one of the better pickups from the 2009 draft. Afflalo was a good pick, too – we just let him go needlessly. Knight could end up being a steal at #8 in 2011.
Not going to argue that Dumars hasn’t made some bad choices, but he’s clearly not in Millen’s league. One GM every one questions is Minny’s Kahn, but he has made a few good moves and two of them – Love and Rubio – are positively golden right now.
Let’s give Dumars credit where it’s due and blame where it’s due – that’s the only fair way to assess anyone.
I think I'm being more than fair.
Since 2000, imo, general Joe Dumars draft picks listed in categories, as follows.
Too Soon to Tell:
Brandon Knight
Kyle Singler
Vernon Macklin
Pluses:
Greg Monroe +
Aaron Afflalo +
Tayshaun Prince +
Mehmet Okur +
Neutral:
Jonas Jerebko (might have been a better pickup that year, but he has lost a year to injury, and why isn’t he starting anymore?)
Rodney Stuckey (average starter, but too much hype on him coming from Joe Dumars)
Brian Cardinal (had minor value while in Detroit, still in the league as a deep bench option)
Minuses:
Austin Daye -
DaJuan Summers -
D.J. White/Walter Sharpe – (zzzzzz)
Amir Johnson – (would have been in the wasted picks section if he hadn’t gotten an 11 million re-up for ‘energy’ purposes)
Darko Milicic (double minus)
Carlos Delfino -
Rodney White (double minus, check that draft to see useful players after that selection)
Mateen Cleaves -
Wasted Picks/No Value
Terrico White
Chase Budinger* (question: did we ever get that pick from Houston, or is that still waiting for us?)
Deron Washington
Sammy Mejia
Will Blalock
Alex Acker
Rickey Paulding
Andreas Glyniadakis
I’ll admit to mistakes, but calling Joe Dumars’s drafts “always been questionable” isn’t one of them. Despite the Iverson trade, he’s been much much better in trades than in the draft.
he’s had over 10 drafts … not one of them has produced a Blake-Griffeny star. I wouldn’t call Monroe a star yet, despite being a big plus. I said it wasn’t fair to benchmark the Wings for levels of draft success, but to expect more out of his body of drafting would be more than fair.
And I never put Dumars in Millen’s class. I referenced Millen as an absolute worst GM, and then I cited Mayhew as an example of how one guy who merely doesn’t suck as much started to put together a better team.
Considering that Joe’s made the bulk of his stupid trades, re-ups, and FA signings in the last 4 years, I’d say that Joe’s currently not a good GM, not even considering the draft end of it. Whether you love what he’s done with the last 2-3 years of drafts or not (most people here do not), you can also call it a fair assessment that Joe’s been lacking in the GM department, overall, as of late.
So in all fairness, I think I fairly gave fairness, farily.
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
I forgot Maxiell
He’s a neutral to me. Not great, but not blindingly awful. Definitely at a disadvantage due to his height as a big, too slow for the 3. He’s a tick above Brian Cardinal in terms of usefulness.
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
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