Shots don't drop, more lottery balls might: Wizards 98, Pistons 77
by Packey on Feb 12, 2012 11:41 PM EST
in Detroit Pistons Recaps
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PrintDuring the now-gone four-game winning streak (against teams that were a combined 30-67), the Pistons shot 49-percent and averaged 23 assists per game. Tonight, against the 6-22 WASHINGTON WIZARDS, they shot 33-percent and lost by 21, 98-77.
The Wizards weren't shooting any better for a minute, which is why the Pistons were, believe it or not, up two with four minutes left in the third quarter. Washington started the third quarter 6-for-18, but finished it making five of their last six shots while the Pistons missed their final four and turned the ball over three times. The Wizards turned that two-point deficit into a nine-point lead going into the fourth quarter and the game was never closer than that.
Detroit finished just 1-for-11 from three and dished out 17 assists opposite 19 turnovers. Greg Monroe led all scorers with 27 points, but only grabbed six rebounds and he also had six turnovers.
Jump around.
- The Pistons guards shot a combined 6-for-36. Brandon Knight had his worst game of his NBA career (1-for-9, 1 rebound, 2 assists, and 3 turnovers)
- Austin Daye was 2-for-9.
- John Wall had 15 assists and 7 turnovers.
- You know what, just check out the freaking box score.
- Congratulations to The Boourns on the nup's and Dragonite, who is new around these parts and not tanking:
Roll Call: alaskanpistonsfan, madpoopz, DBB Diablo, Roco, TDP, The Boourns, JWurm, Toledo Joe, Dragonite, KGW, Kriz, BandWagonerPaysTheDues, mcflies, tads, Skylar, curlyfries, Packey, Mike Payne, Dynamizer, garrettelliott, need4detroit, Aris Kafadogias, bugman222, -PS-, aussiepiston, freywagg, V., W. Stones, n8dogg606, Rusty_Shackleford, Trout Jefferson, Whoneedsastar, MrHappyMushroom, brgulker, halfbackattack33, sauce1977, Shinons*, dandresden, Supa DupeTotal Users: 39
Total Posts: 524
Total Threads: 1Name # of Posts Dragonite 90 The Boourns 59 -PS- 45 BandWagonerPaysTheDues 39 mcflies 30 TDP 30 Mike Payne 25 bugman222 19 JWurm 16 Aris Kafadogias 16 tads 15 sauce1977 12 Kriz 11 Trout Jefferson 10 freywagg 10 garrettelliott 9 Toledo Joe 8 Rusty_Shackleford 8 Packey 7 Dynamizer 7 V. 6 n8dogg606 6 W. Stones 6 MrHappyMushroom 4 brgulker 4 madpoopz 4 need4detroit 4 Whoneedsastar 3 Shinons* 3 halfbackattack33 3 alaskanpistonsfan 3 dandresden 2 DBB Diablo 2 curlyfries 2 Skylar 2 Supa Dupe 1 aussiepiston 1 Roco 1 KGW 1
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You know, I think everyone realizes that Davis is the Prize.
He’s the best defender and would compliment the Moose better than anyone.
But the more I look at this class, the more it feels like a “can’t lose” in terms of landing high quality talented big men. Really, the only guy I’m leery of is Drummond. If we walk awake with one of Robinson, Sullinger, or even Henson, I think we’ll be landing a high quality big.
I just don’t want Terrence Jones.
"trout jefferson is using multiple numbers and no swears. I barely recognize you man." - Kurt Mensching
by Trout Jefferson on Feb 12, 2012 11:47 PM EST reply actions
When Joe Dumars is your GM, you can always lose.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
So the conclusion of yesterday's tanking debate was this:
Dragonite is fully on board with the general (V. excluded) DBB analysis that Dumars ‘got to go.’
Correct?
I’m also one of the lone holdouts — I think Dumars is a good figurehead and should stay (but his decisions should be tempered by the stats and money guys).
by garrettelliott on Feb 13, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Dumars gets a couple more years whether you guys like it or not.
I doubt Gores would relieve him anytime before 2014. I see two more years guaranteed for Joe. The Pistons will pick relatively high and Dumars gets a couple years to try to make the new pieces fit with the existing ones, and now that the rules on roster management have been modified, waiving players is now allowed. Gores will push Dumars to make deals, something Karen Davidson as a placeholder never would’ve.
…the coaching carousel stops, and Mr. Gores is looking for stability, he’s not going to switch GMs right now.
Maybe in a year or two, and only if the Pistons keep playing like they did last night.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
Discount Double Choke, 2011 Packers.
I wouldn’t mind a replacement, but I kind of see the whole situation in a similar light to what you (Skylar) and Garrett highlighted.
I think Dumars is unfit for his job. However, I am wagering that Gores gives him some time to see what happens with the new stat/money guys in place to assist.
I don’t think Joe should get paid as a GM to be the figurehead though. Just on principle, I guess. If someone else is doing his job, they should have his job.
as much as I want him gone (and have wanted him gone since 2009)
I don’t think he’s going anywhere either. The best time to get rid of him was June of 2011, and things would have already been better if we did. But we didn’t, and if we didn’t then, we won’t for a while.
I have a kind of weird feeling that I haven’t talked about on here about Joe. A few weeks back, someone made a comment wondering if Joe’s personality had been effected by diabetes. It’s actually a pretty legitimate question. Then I looked into it, unable to find reports of Joe’s diagnosis, but the news of his brothers (and father) is all very available.
So Joe’s father and two brothers have all died from complications with diabetes, part of which is pretty common knowledge. Joe’s dad lived to age 69, but Joe’s brother Mark died at 49 and his brother Daniel died at 51. Joe is now 48.
At the exact moment I read all this, I completely stopped with the fat jokes. As much as I don’t want the dude to be our GM, I got pretty sad and scared for him. This is a horrible statement to make, but it bears thinking about— if his family history is any indicator, Gores may not be making the final decision on Joe’s tenure.
Hope I didn’t ruin anyone’s lunch break, but when I read all this shit, it certainly ruined mine.
Great perspective, my friend.
there’s only a few DBB in-jokes on here I detest and that was one of them.
Dumars led an active life for a long time, so hopefully those decades where he was a world class athlete will ensure his longevity. Plus I am sure Charles Barkley ribs him about his current weight absolutely every time they cross paths.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
Discount Double Choke, 2011 Packers.
Sir Charles is looking pretty good lately!
Good for him.
by garrettelliott on Feb 13, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
He is looking more trim.
Staying on topic, I was wondering a couple of weeks ago about his health, too. His speech seems slower than it was just last season.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
Discount Double Choke, 2011 Packers.
Used To Play A Lot Of Tennis
post career…wonder what happened there.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Feb 13, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't read nearly enough about Joe's situation before I made all those jokes
Now I feel like I did when I said “Your Mom” to the new kid in middle school who was speechless afterwards and minutes later a friend of mine told me his mom died previously.
Welcome... to the Wallace-hood
I don’t know, diabetes doesn’t necessarily mean you have to become obese. Given, I don’t know Joe’s specifics, but if you’re working with a good nutritionist and good doctor, it’s possible to live a very healthy life with diabetes.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Depends on the type of diabetes.
Diet and lifestyle can lead to diabetes.
But genetics can also lead to diabetes.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
That was me
I was wondering if perhaps his cognitive function had been affected by his disease. It seems like weird thing to think about, but I honestly don’t know if it’s even a possibility.
I also had no luck in trying to find out exactly when his diagnosis occurred, so it was pretty much impossible to draw any correlations.
There are lots of reasons to hate what Joe Dumars has done to the Pistons. But, I think every Piston’s fan realizes is that for all his failings, Joe is still TRYING to do the right thing for the team. What every Piston’s fan since 2008 knows is that it just isn’t good enough, regardless of the reasons why.
by Big Z in Orlando on Feb 13, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There are lots of reasons to hate what Joe Dumars has done to the Pistons. But, I think every Piston’s fan realizes is that for all his failings, Joe is still TRYING to do the right thing for the team. What every Piston’s fan since 2008 knows is that it just isn’t good enough, regardless of the reasons why.
Rec’d for this, and being the originator of a pretty important point.
I agree with this.
This is my position, exactly, well depending on what “tempered” means. I would like to see quality analytics given equal weight to traditional scouting and eyeballing.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Don't Forget Roco
He’s a little more emotional about it than I, because I have a hard time taking the Internet seriously.
I tend to analyze Dumars’ situation more like a businessman and less like a fan. But if I were 20-30 years younger, I might analyze it like a fan, too.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Feb 13, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
because I have a hard time taking the Internet seriously.
I have the following problem:
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
by brgulker on Feb 13, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd For The Undisputed Truth
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Feb 13, 2012 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
That is one of my favorite comics from one of my favorite sites
My federal building is way cooler than your federal building.
Not Really
Age=perspective. I have a lot more now than when I did when I was in my 20s and 30s.
Up to the AI trade, all Dumars has ever done in the NBA is win, as a player and executive. So, you’re stuck with “he lost it” or “he made a mistake, he’ll recover”.
I don’t think Dumars has lost either his perspective or his ability to evaluate basketball players. Combined with what I know the political situation was at the Palace before Gores’ purchase of the team (a hot mess, and one conveniently not reported by the local media), I feel more like the latter.
I’ve mention the AI trade a few times recently. I used to think it was for AI’s expiring, but now am not so sure. I really wonder if CB got on the wrong side of Tom Wilson, one of the Davidsons, or even Dumars. Palace politics are quite Byznatine. Ask Rick Carlisle.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Feb 13, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
Spoken like a fan.
Spoken like a businessman, it’s a guy took a team that led the league in attendance to the team that is dead last in the league in attendance.
by Shinons* on Feb 13, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
it sounds to me like you've got it backwards, V.
Fanhood is a faithful enterprise, and you’re operating on that alone. There’s a perceived impression of undocumented, behind-the-scenes problems that get all the blame in your eyes. Faith in Joe Dumars, faith that he hasn’t changed despite all the hard evidence— that’s acting like a fan.
Alternatively, you could look at the team’s performance record as reflected in wins and losses and ticket sales, then review the transactions which led to the current outcome. Analysis and accountability. That strikes me as a lot more business-like than your m.o.
not sure if davis and monroe compliment each other
sure, unibrow would be the obvious pick, but isn´t he like 6´9?
drafting him would keep monroe at center, and it would make our frontcourt a bit undersized..
the ideal combination would be monroe at the 4 and some huge, athletic shotblocker at 5 (deandre jordan, tyson chandler type of player)
i don´t want drummond, when a player with his ability isn´t the consensus #1 pick, something is really wrong with that dude.
long, smooth, can stroke it
Davis is averaging like 6 blocks a game and he’s a fierce rebounder. I personally don’t mind Monroe staying at the 5 and drafting someone like Sullinger who has a ready made offensive game and can step out and hit the 3. Conversely, having Davis protecting the basket is clutch and him shooting north of 60% (!) would allow Greg to operate out of the high post more. I’m just a little worried about defenses collapsing if we have very little outside game. You don’t have to be super tall to be a good shot blocker.
yah and Davis is 6'10" and only 18/19 years old
he could A) add another 20-30 pounds of muscle to what is currently a pretty thin frame and/or B) grow another inch or two over the next 3 years.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I've not watched Davis
But every time someone questions his height, I think two things:
1. Ben Wallace, who at his tallest was probably 6ft 8 inches.
2. Davis is young and will get bigger and stronger, even if he doesn’t grow any more.
Being a good rebounder/defender/shot blocker is about effort, instinct and WORK. Piston’s fans of ALL fans should be aware of this.
by Big Z in Orlando on Feb 13, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
I've watched several KY games on TV ...
and Davis is very impressive. Biggest issue is his build – he can be outmuscled in the paint. But he blocks shots, runs the floor, and they say he’s an outstanding kid to coach. He looks like a hard worker to me. Shoots FTs at 70 %, so he’s not a bricklayer. His reach is supposed to be 7-5. I’d love to have him, but we’ll have to get very lucky.
not taking anything away from davis
but i wouldn´t count on him being a once-in-a-generation defensive force aka big ben
also, ncaa blocked shots numbers are always a bit suspect, see: thabeet, hasheem
long, smooth, can stroke it
I think a good stat to pay attention to (which isn’t conclusive, just helpful) is blocks:PFs.
During Thabeet’s rookie season, he averaged 3.8 blocks to 2.6 fouls.
This year, Davis is averaging 4.9 blocks to 2.0 fouls.
It’s an important number because it’s helpful to at least predict whether or not foul trouble is going to be much of an issue. And Davis is owning pretty much everyone, where Thabeet owned players that clearly weren’t NBA caliber. Which is also Drummond’s problem.
good point
and thanks for looking that up, but i still believe moose/davis would be overwhelmed by super tall frontlines and outmuscled by others, but, god, i hope i´m wrong
long, smooth, can stroke it
I don't know that they'd be overwhelmed by super tall frontlines
because I don’t think there are too many frontcourts that feature two guys with wingspans of 7 feet 2.5" or longer. I also don’t know how many frontcourts feature two guys who are 6’10" or taller.
You’ve got:
Bynum/Gasol (2 7 footers)
Randolph/Gasol (6’11" and 7’0")
Perkins/Ibaka (6’10" and 6’10")
Griffin/Jordan (6’10" and 6’10")
Anderson/Howard (6’11" and 6’11")
My guess is that a Davis/Monroe frontcourt would rarely if ever get overwhelmed by a longer frontcourt because their measurements are comparable with the best in the league. The bigger question is whether Moose can put on another 5-10 pounds of muscle and whether Davis can put on another 10-15 pounds of muscle. That would put them in a very similar height, length, and weight to Perkins/Ibaka only with a far better offensive capability.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
+1
Davis + Monroe is immediately a very good frontcourt, and in five years, probably dominant.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Also, the Wallace brothers were technically undersized, but they played huge. Measurements aren’t close to everything.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Neither one was seven feet tall, and Big Ben was definitely the shortest starting C in the NBA.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Totally agree as
a frontcourt combo they weren’t the biggest. But Sheed as a PF was definitely not undersized.
i still believe moose/davis would be overwhelmed by super tall frontlines
Maybe we’re talking past each other, but you were hypothesizing about a frontcourt combo of Davis/Monroe — as a tandem, not individuals.
The Big Ben/Sheed frontcourt is a nice illustration that a frontcourt that’s technically undersized can still be dominant.
Plus, on the defensive side of the ball, they were often interchangeable. A Davis/Monroe tandem feels similar in that regard.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
yes big ben was undersized, but he was also one of the best defensive players ever. and he had a tall (yes sheed was a tall PF) and also very smart and physical defender next to him..
yes, they domintated – with physicality and smarts.
each of these guys was able to handle howard, shaq etc one-on-one, neither moose nor davis could do that
not even sure if monroe/davis deserve to be in the same conversation.. (talking only about defense)
long, smooth, can stroke it
not even sure if monroe/davis deserve to be in the same conversation.. (talking only about defense)
Not yet, definitely.
I wasn’t intending to draw a direct comparison between the two backcourts. I was simply trying to illustrate that you can have a frontcourt that is relatively undersized and still have a really good – if not great – frontcourt.
Size matters, but it isn’t everything.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
I'd say Davis is immediately a future HOF
20&8. 20 dunks and 8 blocks per game
by Packey on Feb 14, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Agreed
Engineering > everything else.
by Mike Payne on Feb 14, 2012 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
thabeet
was a huge stiff. yeah he blocked some shots, but davis is basically doing what thabeet did as a 23 year old, only better, and he’s 19 with an underdeveloped body and game.
i don’t see how Davis’s game doesn’t translate well. I just don’t see it. He might have some growing pains, but everything he does do well translates well between college and pros. he blocks, dunks, and rebounds, and doesn’t turn it over.
Just think how much more meaningful this loss would have been if we had lost the 4 games before it too...
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
we'd still be the 2nd worst team in the league instead of being 5th...
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
I don't think anyone is catching the Bobcats or Hornets in terms of suck.
"trout jefferson is using multiple numbers and no swears. I barely recognize you man." - Kurt Mensching
by Trout Jefferson on Feb 13, 2012 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
my point is, the Hornets would be talking about catching us if it weren't for us doubling our win total over the past week.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
No need to tank to be *among* the worst teams
But even despite last night’s loss, I still think getting to the worst or second-worst record would probably require some intentional tanking. Not that I’m advocating for that, just observ ing.
ya know
i think there’s some sort of misnomer about this tanking theme. i don’t think anyone wants our players to just give up, or have some order from the top to start sucking harder. we can’t get rid of tay and max and play daye and macklin 40 minutes each. i’m not sure how you would tank. we all want to win, but because we can’t the only natural thing to do is wish that we sucked worse. that is the system they’ve created in sports. the biggest winner and the biggest loser both win.
Any concern over Moose's TO numbers this season?
Or just the product of being the only good player on a bad team?
None
In fact, I’m super excited about his TO numbers.
His usage has jumped from 15.4 to 24.3 and his assist% is up from 7.5 to 15.7. For his turnover% to only raise 4% (from 11.0 to 15.3) with that additional context seems awful good to me.
by Shinons* on Feb 13, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Thanks for those numbers
I didn’t realize his usage has increased 9%, I guess it’s because I feel that we still don’t use him enough.
That 8% increase in assist rate is awesome too. Loving Moose more and more by the day.
OOOOHHH
hours later – it’s a sea, not a beach!
by freywagg on Feb 13, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
Discount Double Choke, 2011 Packers.
Um, labor law something. . . .
Burning doom moon castle sleep? No, that’s not it. . . .
by Toledo Joe on Feb 13, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Fire Wolf Moon?
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Marcellus Wallace Would Be Proud Of You
Not only gettin’ medieval with the board’s collective ass, but being cryptic about it at the same time.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Feb 14, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
Discount Double Choke, 2011 Packers.
by Skylar on Feb 14, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
female dog>wave ocean
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Feb 13, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
I think Charlotte, New Orleans, Jersey and Washington ...
should only play each other the rest of the season. Any games we have scheduled against them should be switched so we play Miami or Chicago more. Then there will be no need to tank!
we only have 5 more games left against those teams
3 against charlotte and 2 against washington.
biyombo will go off for a 20/20/20 night in at least one of those three just to be a dick. other than that looking at the schedule i think we’re pretty damn safe as far as finishing in the bottom 5.
jersey could swing any which way at the trade deadline though. washington could come on strong. charlotte and new orleans just suck worse than us and there isn’t much that can be done there.
Bottom 5 gives us a good chance at moving up
The year Washington got the number 1, wasn’t their record about the same as ours? I know Jersey was the worst team that year. So as bad as the Hornets and Bobcats are, they could still get screwed by the lottery.
Gotta say though
I really don’t like the owners were contending with. one is the GOAT, one is a Russian billionaire moving his team to Brooklyn, and the other is the commissioner. Gores is yet to show he’s as whiny of a bitch as Gilbert. All things considered its not looking good.
by mcflies on Feb 13, 2012 2:58 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Maybe...but the Commish would have to accept 2 1st round draft picks for 1
If we offered them 5th overall and a top 5 protected 2013 1st round pick, they’d have to go for it. They’d take on considerable value, and they’d get 2 years in a row of having 2 1st round draft picks.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Agreed
If you think the draft is completely random, you probably think the officiating is on the square, too.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Feb 13, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I eagerly await our next game versus the Nets or Bucks.
by garrettelliott on Feb 14, 2012 1:02 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
I Eagerly Await March 1
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Feb 14, 2012 4:17 AM EST up reply actions
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