Third time's not the charm: Nets 99, Pistons 96
by Packey on Feb 2, 2012 12:58 AM EST
in Detroit Pistons Recaps
Email
PrintThe Pistons lost all three of their back-to-back-to-back games, which now gives them back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back losses. That's seven in a row and they are a lottery rich 4-20.
Detroit had a chance to end the streak tonight in New Jersey, though, tying the game early in the fourth quarter 77-77, again with 5:35 in the fourth at 88-88, and then pulling within two with 42 seconds remaining.
Before we get to breaking down the final minute, let's revisit a real quote from Tayshaun Prince after last night's game (via tads):
"Offensively, the ball is not moving ... When one guy gets the ball, we’re looking for that guy to kind of make a play instead of all five guys moving and trying to set some screens, do some different things, things like that. We’re looking around and saying, ‘Hey, Stuckey, why don’t you save us? Tayshaun, why don’t you save us?’ and things like that."
19-second mark: Prince is standing still, or "not moving" (on defense) as a Shawne Williams three-pointer hits iron. Kris Humphries, barely boxing out, goes up to get the rebound while Prince reacts by moving his arms a little bit. Luckily, Moose gets in there to tie up Humphries to force a jump ball. The Pistons win the tap and call a 20-second timeout for a final play and a chance to tie or take the lead.
That final play Frank drew up? Broken, and then more broken as it ended with an unsuccessful Isolayshaun. It looked like Walker Russell blew it, but there was still plenty of time for some of that non-existent ball movement Prince spoke of when he got the ball back with 10 seconds. Instead, he went straight into self-proclaimed hero mode to no avail.
To be fair, nobody was moving when Prince had the ball until about five seconds when Moose, knowing his teammate all too well, sprinted into the lane to position himself for an offensive rebound. Unfortunately, Prince's shot ricocheted straight to Sundiata Gaines. Gaines missed a free throw to give the Pistons one last chance to tie, but Brandon Knight was defended well by Deron Williams and his prayer after the buzzer was long. Jubilation in Newark.
To be extra fair, Prince actually had a pretty good game. He finished with a team-high 21 points. Greg Monroe also scored 21 (on four fewer shots).
The Pistons will play their fourth game in five nights on Friday against the Bucks again.
- Walker Russell had 12 points on 5-for-9 shooting, six rebounds, and two assists (no turnovers).
- Brandon Knight was 7-for-18 shooting (1-for-8 from threes), had five rebounds, and four assists (one turnover).
- Box score
- From ESPN recap:
- Jason Maxiell started in place of Ben Wallace to give the ol' man a much deserved rest, much to the chagrin of this drunk fan.
- Gabe-F-B took a pic of the Nets' derp.
-
Roll Call: heWizard, garrettelliott, Supa Dupe, Fadel, Mike Payne, brgulker, RandyOreens, Shinons*, Bballkid-22, madpoopz, mannie32, Toledo Joe, Rban, Kriz, V., Sean_Corp, -PS-, MrHappyMushroom, curlyfries, Kruza, thesiberian, MSUDersh, aussiepiston, halfbackattack33, Packey, tads, Ra's Head, JP423, Trout Jefferson, mcflies, OK from J, dandresden, JumpingBlob, Gabe F-B
Total Users: 34
Total Posts: 258
Total Threads: 1Name # of Posts JP423 25 brgulker 23 heWizard 22 Mike Payne 21 thesiberian 18 Kriz 18 Kruza 15 Trout Jefferson 13 Packey 13 MrHappyMushroom 12 V. 12 dandresden 10 aussiepiston 8 Ra's Head 7 -PS- 7 Toledo Joe 7 halfbackattack33 4 Rban 3 Bballkid-22 2 OK from J 2 RandyOreens 2 Sean_Corp 2 mcflies 1 garrettelliott 1 Gabe F-B 1 JumpingBlob 1 Supa Dupe 1 Shinons* 1 mannie32 1 curlyfries 1 madpoopz 1 MSUDersh 1 tads 1 Fadel 1
The game also marked Frank's return to New Jersey for the first time since taking over the Pistons.
Frank was 225-241 record in 466 games spanning seven seasons with the Nets, including four straight playoff appearances.
"I love New Jersey. It's home," said Frank, who was an assistant on the Celtics last season. "There are a lot of great memories."
159 comments
|
Add comment
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Fun Fact!
Vernon Macklin is fourth on the Pistons in win shares (behind Monroe, JJ, and Stuckey) despite only having played 63 minutes (granted, those were all garbage time minutes). Maybe Frank should consider at least giving him a shot, given what a shit show Maxiell has been.
How's that for a slice of fried gold?
by Thom not Tom Gores on Feb 2, 2012 1:51 AM EST reply actions
I'd thought Maxiell to be a bright spot?
Hasn’t he been a pleasant surprise to date?
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 2, 2012 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
A 63 minute share of 4 wins, is, well
A pretty thin share, even if it is #4 on the team. But then again, I don’t really understand the “win share” stat.
hypothetically speaking
macklin could have produced greater than 5 wins and we could still have 4 wins because the rest of the team collectively produced -1 wins. as an example. don’t take win shares to match up perfectly with wins. it was designed to correlate i’m sure, but it’s not like they take however many wins a team has and then try to decide who’s responsible.
Thanks for the explanation
This is sort of reminding me of +/-, which I am dubious about. But hey, in a year like this, if some stat suggests one of our players is actually doing something kind of good, we should definitely post it.
The third time is not the charm
As Bill Clinton once said
The WNBA is all about the game of basketball. No overblown hype, no despicable personalities, no outrageous amounts of money, no mugging halftime analysts, and no poisonous animosities. Just the finesse and effort of basketball. If that isn't interesting to people, then people just aren't interested in basketball.
After watching those last two games live, I'm SO over Tayshaun Prince
Dude has the worst body language ever. If Joe Dumars isn’t lining up a trade for him I have no idea how Norwent and Gores can have a conversation about Prince with anyone keeping a straight face.
With Prince in the game the Pistons basically ran 2(.5) plays.
1) Tayshaun stands in the corner and waits as everybody else moves the ball around
2) Tayshaun starts moving without the ball only to not get the ball and then start visibly shaking his head.
Then, of course, Tayshaun couild just take the ball at any point in any one of those plays, wave everybody off with his Grinch-who-stole-christmas demeanor, and score over whatever shitty player he is mis matched against. It usually works, because he can cause a lot of mismatches. So can Moose, Stuckey, and a bunch of other people. It seems like he is just picking his spots so he can prove to the world (himself) that he is better than everybody else, and then slide back into not being part of the team.
Welcome... to the Wallace-hood
Additionally
Given that we are now 4-20, I was expecting much more thinly veiled pot references, great job on the write up though.
Welcome... to the Wallace-hood
by tads on Feb 2, 2012 8:09 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
If I wasn't busy at work today I would sign up to do a gamethread
I think my idea for the title would be:
I got five on it? 4-20 Pistons try to roll up a nickel bag of victories at home against the Bucks.
Welcome... to the Wallace-hood
+billion
I ended up buying tickets last minute when I saw lower bowl seats selling for $2 on Stubhub.
To get a sense for how bad Tay’s body language was in person, my girlfriend, who has never been to a basketball game at any level of play (though she does know a bunch of the Pistons players names from hearing me yell at them for the last few years), asked every couple minutes why Prince looked sooooo angry/pouty/petulant.
Quick recap:
I can understand being seduced by the idea of Brandon Knight. In person he’s huge for a PG (if he can stay there), fast, makes an effort on defense, and makes some tough shots. When I got home and looked at the box score and saw he had a poor game it came as a bit of a surprise.
Deron Williams was so, so aggressive, especially off the ball. This is a mentality I really wish Stuckey and Knight (and Tay) could learn. It made defending him so much harder because he was battling to create something on offense for the entire possession. Knight can obviously spot up and shoot deep 3’s, but in general if those guys don’t have the ball in their hands, the defense doesn’t really need to worry about them.
Jerebko struggled with Humphries strength/size. This might be because Hump is a natural PF/C and JJ isn’t.
Monroe had the opposite of Knight’s game. In person I mainly remembered Monroe blowing a couple easy shots inside, then I looked at the box score and saw he was his good ol’ efficient self.
Taysolashaun was in full effect throughout. In a way seeing it live is kinda cool, because the pace/feel of the game really does noticeably change in the blink of an eye, like sleeping pills suddenly kicked in for all the players on the court. But the effect is as damaging to the Pistons as it is to the opponent.
by Gabe F-B on Feb 2, 2012 9:24 AM EST up reply actions 8 recs
What section were you in? I was in section 1 which is basically the side line extended on the Piston bench side of the court. My buddy was given free tickets to replace tickets he had for a game that was cancelled last year.
Welcome... to the Wallace-hood
I was in section 2, row 11. But we moved even closer to the Pistons bench after the first quarter and were sitting behind three guys who I was sure were Pistons fans (but weren’t wearing any Pistons gear) and I was about to say hi and chat, but then it was halftime and my girlfriend wanted to get snacks, and then I didn’t see them their later. Was that you?
Or were you right on the court? I saw a guy rocking a Billups jersey courtside near the Pistons bench.
I never got that close, although I was in that section during the game last season. By “side line extended” I should have include "…all the way to the edge of the lower bowl.
I was proud to be a Pistons fans when they started showing their THIRTY FIVE YEARS OF NETS video retrospective which was largely laughable.
Welcome... to the Wallace-hood
Absolutely
Seeing him throw his hands in the air when they didn’t get a rebound, committed a turnover, missed a shot or whenever they didn’t pass him the ball was sickening.
25 games into his new contract I already can’t stand this guy.
Fire Joe Dumars
New Kid on the Blog
Long time stones fan and faithful DBB lurker here, maybe some of you guys remember me, i stopped posting when this blog joined SB nation.
Now i finally made an account, because i think its absolutely awesome how active this board is despite the horrible brand of basketball we are forced to watch (which in my case means getting up in the middle of the night and looking for some illegal streams)
one last thing, excuse my bad english, i´m not from the us.
Go shitty team!
by jay_uno on Feb 2, 2012 8:23 AM EST reply actions 8 recs
the only color that matters is green
give it to me!!
long, smooth, can stroke it
by jay_uno on Feb 2, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec’d for asking for recs.
Welcome back!
by garrettelliott on Feb 2, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
wow, all the big chiefs coming out to welcome me back
awesome, big thanks to all of you
long, smooth, can stroke it
now you know that ain't true
the only color that matters is green
I’d argue Red matters quite a bit. Welcome back to the fold, fam.
That goddamn Okra and beans got you Oprah in jeans. Seems to me a little lean cuisine, wouldn't hurt much- Agh don't touch! -Obie Trice
Discount Double Choke, 2011 Packers.
by Skylar on Feb 2, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I like red.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
I may take some hate for this, but I have to get it off my chest.
I am sick of Brandon Knight’s ball hogging. 18 shots, to only 7 makes.
By contrast, Greg Monroe made 8 shots, and only had 11 opportunities. Even if you count Monroe’s 4 turnovers as shots, he’s still taking less than Knight. Inexcusable.
Brandon Knight is a terrible point guard. He calls his own number over and over and over again, no matter how good his teammates are shooting the ball, and much more often than not, him calling his own number results in an empty possession for his team.
I agree with Gabe that he doesn’t look ineffective when he plays. Just the opposite in fact. So here’s a little statistical comparison for you here.
Rodney Stuckey — who we have all questioned as a point guard — assisted his teammates at a higher rate as a rookie (at 21 years old) and turned the ball over less frequently than Brandon Knight.
Let that sink in.
As a rookie, Rodney Stuckey was better at the things PGs need to do to help their teams than Brandon Knight currently is.
Yes, there is an experience gap. But that defense holds less water with each passing game like last night, and honestly, I’m beyond sick of it. Brandon Knight, as a PG, has a ceiling of Rodney Stuckey. And we’re being sold on the fact that he’s a building block for the future.
Barf.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
he's exactly what we expected!
i don’t see what the big hub bug is about. we knew he would suck. doesn’t seem to be too much to debate here. his best case if jason terry. that’s not a starting PG. so he’s a future 6th man off the bench. every team needs a 6th man. you can’t play 5 guys 48 minutes each.
Except -- as my wife said last year, even with a healthy BG and CV
We are at best a team of 6th men. OK, Moose looks to be an upper level starter, but nobody else on our team is or even seems capable of becoming one. Much as I love Jonas, I don’t see him as a future all-star selection unless they include beauty as a criteria. Stuckey will never be even close to an elite 1 or 2 — although he could be a useful 6th man. Gordon and CV’s best case scenarios at this point are useful 6th men. Daye’s best case scenario, sad to see, seems to be to aspire to what CV and BG are now. Walker and Wilkins wouldn’t see any minutes on a half-decent team.
This is why, while I too am disappointed/frustrated with Tayshaun, pretending the peformance of this team is in large part his fault is just wishful thinking. Sure, paying Tay as much as we are for as long as we are, he should be doing a lot better in a variety of ways. But as much as people want to stress that there’s more ball movement without him, we still completely suck without him.
Anyway, much of this isn’t new, it’s just that it’s going to be so hard to get better.
I am sick of Brandon Knight’s ball hogging. 18 shots, to only 7 makes.
By contrast, Greg Monroe made 8 shots, and only had 11 opportunities. Even if you count Monroe’s 4 turnovers as shots, he’s still taking less than Knight. Inexcusable.
Per 36 minute stats for FGA by Brandon Knight: 12.9. Greg Monroe is at 13.6. Hard to be a ball hog when you average less shots per 36 than somebody.
Rodney Stuckey — who we have all questioned as a point guard — assisted his teammates at a higher rate as a rookie (at 21 years old) and turned the ball over less frequently than Brandon Knight.
Here’s the ‘07-’08 Pistons Roster. I would have to say that Rodney Stuckey had a hell of a lot more to work with in terms of players that could put the ball in the basket better. And Rodney Stuckey was only a half of TO better than Knight per 36.
What I’m trying to point out is that Rodney Stuckey wasn’t that much better given the people he had to work with versus what Knight has to work with. I would have to say that his ceiling is probably still better than Rodney Stuckey’s as a PG. The question is though, will being better than Rodney Stuckey even make him a good PG?
by madpoopz on Feb 2, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Knight shoots barely over 40%. Monroe shoots above 50%. The fact that he even comes close to the same number of shot attempts per minute is itself a problem.
Do you really want to argue that a guy shooting 40% should be shooting as much as he does?
I would have to say that Rodney Stuckey had a hell of a lot more to work with in terms of players that could put the ball in the basket better. And Rodney Stuckey was only a half of TO better than Knight per 36.
As I said below, Stuckey is assisting his current teammates at a better rate than he assisted his 07-08 teammates. That suggests to me that it’s possible for a PG of this current team to get assists, in spite of them not being very good overall.
Walker Russell is assisting teammates at a significantly higher rate than Brandon Knight.
I stand by what I’ve said. Brandon Knight is a terrible PG right now. The other PGs on this roster — specifically, one who probably isn’t a natural PG and the other who was just brought up from the D League — are better at assisting teammates (and significantly so) than Brandon Knight.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Bingo.
Irec’d and will now go poop in your honor.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 7:08 AM EST up reply actions
but stuckey played with sheed, dyess, pre-idiot-rip and pre-isolayshaun-tayshaun..
these guys made more shots, which means more assists and .. yea.. they did not suck like this current group of misfits
but i agree, knights turnovers are worrisome
long, smooth, can stroke it
I really don't think that's fair to Knight
You should probably qualify all of this with these facts:
1. Stuckey was on a better team, top to bottom. And if the players are better you’re going to have more assists.
2. Brandon Knight comes in with no training camp, summer league, and has a jammed season with a new coach.
3. 24 vs. 57 games? There is definitely an experience gap so why are we looking at the numbers now?
Knight takes way more threes than 08’ Stuckey. He connects at a way higher rate. His FG%s are all better than 08’Stuckey. Of course his ws are lower because this team was world-class-shitty before he got here.
2. Brandon Knight comes in with no training camp, summer league, and has a jammed season with a new coach.
Rodney Stuckey broke his hand during the preseason and thus missed a great deal of practice time.
3. 24 vs. 57 games? There is definitely an experience gap so why are we looking at the numbers now?
It is purely arbitrary. The only reason is because I’m frustrated with watching Knight, and so far, he looks like the same player he was in college.
1. Stuckey was on a better team, top to bottom. And if the players are better you’re going to have more assists.
Stuckey has a higher assist rate by 3% points than he did his rookie season. It seems like it’s possible to get assists even with this crappy team.
Anecdotally, Knight’s teammates shot better last night than they have all season. Knight only managed 4 assists to 18 shot attempts.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Rodney Stuckey broke his hand during the preseason and thus missed a great deal of practice time.
He broke his hand Oct 25th so he missed one or two preseason games and a bunch of regular season games. Knight has no training camp, no summer league, 2 preseason games, and again a jam packed schedule with no time for practice.
It is purely arbitrary.
arbitrary? Like the facts aren’t sufficient to support your hypothesis?
Stuckey has a higher assist rate by 3% points than he did his rookie season. It seems like it’s possible to get assists even with this crappy team.
I would sure as hell hope that Stuckey could improve his assists over 4 seasons. Especially considering he wasn’t even asked to be a distributor in his rookie season. We were looking for a scoring punch off the bench.
Anecdotally, Knight’s teammates shot better last night than they have all season. Knight only managed 4 assists to 18 shot attempts.
I’m not gonna crucify the kid for a bad game or two or three or eight. Not on this team. He’s already shooting more consistently and with more range than Stuckey ever did. The passing will come.
Knight is averaging 2.9 turnovers per game. Compare that with 3.4 throughout the tournament and 4.7 over his first 7 college games. I’d call that improvement.
I’d much rather compare percentages and rates adjusted for pace, but I do not know where such data exists for the NCAA.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
You hinge your arguments on single games and you want pace adjusted rates to prove a significant consistent drop in turnovers wrong?
by JoeDip on Feb 2, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
good find
interesting. knight sucked in college, but he sucks even worse as a pro.
he has the exact same assist rate, but a higher turnover rate, and is committing more fouls, and not drawing as many fouls.
he’s also shooting worse. shit. he sucks.
also...
you can go to www.sports-reference.com. They are part of the same system as basketball-reference.com and from sports-reference, you can get to an NCAA Men’s College Basketball version. They have the same features as basketball-reference…
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
He broke his hand Oct 25th so he missed one or two preseason games and a bunch of regular season games. Knight has no training camp, no summer league, 2 preseason games, and again a jam packed schedule with no time for practice.
I’m not saying the situations are identical. I admitted an experience gap. You are right that a more fair comparison would be at the end of the season.
However, it is fair to note that Stuckey’s numbers from his rookie season did include a significant injury which necessitated a great deal of missed practice time.
I would sure as hell hope that Stuckey could improve his assists over 4 seasons.
You’re missing my point. If bad teammates are the reason Knight doesn’t get any assists, then I have two questions:
1) Why is Stuckey able to assist his teammates at a higher rate now? Presumably, if the bad teammates mean fewer assists, then Stuck’s improvement over time isn’t enough to account for this.
2) Why are Stuckey and Walker able to get assists without much problem?
The passing will come.
I wish I could share your optimism. The facts are what they are though. Until the passing develops, it hasn’t developed.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
chiming in
I’ve never been a big believer in that teammates create assists. the player creates the assist. or the offense. or so on. if every potential assist turned into a bucket Nash would average 30 assists per game. nobody is making excuses for the assists that don’t happen for Nash. Or the assist that isn’t – when a player gets fouled on a shot that would have been assisted has it went in. Stats will never tell the whole story in regards to assists and actually being a good facilitator.
You watch Deron Williams or Nash or Rondo or Paul you notice one thing, they do not stop moving. Ever. They are either running a pick and roll or driving or using some type of screen to do something. Nash will constantly drive into the lane and then sit there and if he doesn’t have anything just dribble back out of it. He’s always in attack mode, even if his method of attack differs from a scorer.
Steve Nash is an interesting example right now. Their team sucks balls, but his assist rate is increasing: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
one word:
polish hammer (thats two words, whatever)
note: i´m half polish so i´m obviously biased
long, smooth, can stroke it
imagine a hammer/monroe backcourt
i just did and now i´m going to cry myself to sleep
long, smooth, can stroke it
I think monore could do decent at PG but the Polish Hammer would make a terrible SG
by Bry7 on Feb 2, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
you mean a Moose Hammer backcourt?
Quick someone photoshop that!
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
have I started something here?
Or have you always been partial to trading ol’ lefty for a front court upgrade?
by aussiepiston on Feb 2, 2012 4:00 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
However, it is fair to note that Stuckey’s numbers from his rookie season did include a significant injury which necessitated a great deal of missed practice time.
It’s NOT fair to note. He missed 6 weeks. He still had ALL of that summer plus the practice time between games during the course of a normal season. He got to sit in on practices even when he couldn’t participate. 6 weeks out puts him at about Dec 15th for a return — the same time the lockout was lifted. Further, when are the Pistons supposed to practice when they’re playing 4 games in 5 nights? Stuckey had more time to practice LET IT GO.
1) Why is Stuckey able to assist his teammates at a higher rate now? Presumably, if the bad teammates mean fewer assists, then Stuck’s improvement over time isn’t enough to account for this.
Stuckey is able to assist his teammates at a higher rate now because he is used more. He is a starter now and not until after that happened was he considered a point guard.
2) Why are Stuckey and Walker able to get assists without much problem?Simply put, experience (at least with Stuckey). How can we even fairly compare these guys? They all play on the same team and often are on the floor together. They aren’t exactly blowing Knight out of the water either.
How can we even fairly compare these guys?
You tell me. If your argument is that my comparison isn’t fair and/or isn’t qualified correctly, then what is a fair comparison? I didn’t present the comparison as apples to apples in the first place.
However to my eye, they are very similar players, and it’s easy to compare them because we’re so familiar with both. Neither is a natural PG, yet both have played mostly at that position. The main distinction I see is that Stuckey has always been better at attacking the rim, and Knight is the better perimeter shooter.
I’m open to any other suggestion. If Knight’s rookie season so far isn’t a fair comparison to Stuckey’s, then what would be a good comparison for Knight?
Stuckey is able to assist his teammates at a higher rate now because he is used more. He is a starter now and not until after that happened was he considered a point guard.
I don’t understand what you mean here. If it’s the amount of possessions used, then they’re almost identical. As far as my memory goes, Stuckey played PG during the majority of his rookie season, but I could be wrong. My memory is that Spellcheck and Flip Murry got a big chunk of the backup SG minutes.
Stuckey had more time to practice LET IT GO.
You are making assumptions here that are faulty, in my view. Practice, summer, league, etc. do not necessarily lead to on-court improvement in the NBA.
I will LET IT GO if you can prove to me that watching NBA practices contributes to player development. I will LET IT GO if you can prove to me that summer league necessarily means improvements in NBA performance.
I’ve already agreed with you that we can’t fully compare Knight and Stuckey until the year’s over. But until then, we can’t do any type of analysis at all? That seems silly.
Furthermore, Knight didn’t just sit around on his duff all summer. He was playing and practicing basketball. I do not believe for a second that the situations is even half as dramatic as you’re making it sound.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
It’s NOT fair to note. He missed 6 weeks. He still had ALL of that summer plus the practice time between games during the course of a normal season. He got to sit in on practices even when he couldn’t participate. 6 weeks out puts him at about Dec 15th for a return — the same time the lockout was lifted. Further, when are the Pistons supposed to practice when they’re playing 4 games in 5 nights? Stuckey had more time to practice LET IT GO.
Some facts for you. Stuckey played 57 games between December 21 and April 16, 2007.
Between December 26 and April 26, Knight will have played 66 games, assuming he stays healthy.
So, Knight will play 11 more games during that stretch over a handful of fewer days total. So we’re talking about something like 3-7 more practices over the course of an entire season.
So the argument is that something like 3 full weeks worth of practice, combining the difference in training camp, injuries, and the abbreviated schedule, and no summer league means it is totally and completely unfair to compare Stuckey the rookie and Brandon Knight the rookie?
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Brand new coach, hadn’t had a look at the playbook until oh say a week before regular season kicks off, some pretty awful players around him (save for monroe and jerebko). Yes, I feel that it is an unfair comparison, without qualification, if you mean to say that we can expect little or no development.
Ben, are you really arguing
that Stuckey playing on the second string (against second string opponents) with guys around him good enough to compete for a championship and Knight playing against the starting line on a team where only one of his teammates would be in the top seven or eight of a decent team’s rotation is not a relevant factor?
Again, I have no opinion on Knight. I’ve seen him play twice. But drawing conclusions based on a statistical analysis of a 19 year old’s first 25 games with the worst team in the NBA seems kinda silly. I think I recall you doing the same after his first less-than-satisfactory pre-season game.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
Ummmmm.....
“1) Why is Stuckey able to assist his teammates at a higher rate now? Presumably, if the bad teammates mean fewer assists, then Stuck’s improvement over time isn’t enough to account for this.”
Er, maybe Stuckey is a fourth year pro who’s had ample time to grow into his body and adjust to NBA level basketball and Knight is six years younger, and only played 10% as many games?
Just maybe?
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 9:07 AM EST up reply actions
In other shocking news...
Monroe’s PPG and RPG is up this year! My god, improvement with experience! Never heard of such a thing…
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
as are his steals, assists, offensive rebounds, free throw attempts, and Free Throw %
all in addition to his natural increase in handsomeness and mooseyness.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
arbitrary? Like the facts aren’t sufficient to support your hypothesis?
No, as in I’m comparing their two rookie because I wanted to. It was my judgment to do so.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Stuckey was on a better team, top to bottom. And if the players are better you’re going to have more assists.
I agree, having a better team around you, at least one that can actually make shots, will help your assist rate. It might explain away the difference between these two players in their rookie seasons. Even if they were the same, it doesn’t inspire much confidence in Knight if his rookie campaign (so far) can be compared to Rodney Stuckey.
But the problem remains (in this comparison) that Knight’s turnover rate is still sky high, and the group around him doesn’t matter in that statistic.
Brandon Knight comes in with no training camp, summer league, and has a jammed season with a new coach
I’ve heard this brought up a lot by different people, but it’s hard to give Knight the benefit of the doubt here when so many other rookie point guards are playing better than Knight on teams of equivalent shittiness.
Isaiah Thomas, Kemba Walker and (of course) Kyrie Irving didn’t have a training camp or a summer league and they’re all having impressive starts as rookie PGs. Ricky Rubio has had the most experience of these players, so it may not be fair to include him, but he sure adapted to the T’Wolves quite easily.
Knight takes way more threes than 08’ Stuckey. He connects at a way higher rate. His FG%s are all better than 08’Stuckey.
Agreed, Knight does appear to have a better individual offensive game out of the gate. The problem is that none of these advantages relate to his skills in leading an offense and doing the job a point guard is supposed to do. Ideally, point skills and shooting ability would be awesome, it’s just unfortunate that point skills have never been something Knight has had, from day one of college through to last night’s game.
Isaiah Thomas, Kemba Walker and (of course) Kyrie Irving didn’t have a training camp or a summer league and they’re all having impressive starts as rookie PGs.
THIS a million times. People are way, way, way overestimating the impact that training camp and summer league does or doesn’t have on young players.
Austin Daye is a summer league all star, but that has meant absolutely nothing for him as an NBA player.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
I don't know that its over-estimating...
I do think it had a drastic effect on all rookies equally, but the problem is, our rookie’s shortcomings are absolutely necessary to address in the pre-season (decision making, understanding the offense, etc.).
It doesn’t help that we added a new coach while Kyrie is playing with teammmates who already knew Byron Scott’s system. Our entire team had to learn Larry’s system, not just our rookies.
That said, I’m not trying to discredit your argument. The fact that Isaiah Thomas (2nd to last pick in the draft) is playing point on an equally mediocre team better than Knight is on our team and in less minutes is pretty depressing.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
Really?
But the problem remains (in this comparison) that Knight’s turnover rate is still sky high, and the group around him doesn’t matter in that statistic.
Is this entirely true? If your team-mates are imbeciles who are rarely in the right place, or like to coat their hands with butter on the bench, isn’t this going to contribute to a higher turnover rate?
Ok, I’m playing devil’s advocate in this case and the comparison between assist rate and turnover rate is probably relatively accurate, but ever time I see Maxiell or CV flub a pass, the passer gets a turnover.
by Big Z in Orlando on Feb 2, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
You’re right, it wasn’t fair to suggest that it doesn’t matter [at all], it’s just very hard to quantify. I’d say it really doesn’t make too much of a difference, but you’d have to identify who the shitty receivers are and how they differ to other team’s shitty receivers and yadda yadda yadda, as a result I’ll stick with the gut.
If you watch Knight (and I'm sure you have)
you’ll know that this really isn’t the case of his teammates not being in the right place. Most of his turnovers are self-inflicted and occur after forcing the ball into the paint. It seems this happens most often after he’s made one or two quick drives up the floor before getting tired and just getting sloppy as a result.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
I wonder if there's ever been an NBA player
who was less than great before he turned 20 and ended up being good?
Nah, probably not. I’ve never heard of a young guy developing his game.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 9:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rubio Has Two Years Of Euroball
…and as a result has a much more polished game (also file under Jerebko and Singler)
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Feb 3, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
I think the concern
is mostly that Knight is exaclty who we thought he would be, or for others, hoped he wouldn’t be – a combo guard, and a bad one at that. I was about 99% sure he would suck, and I’d say I’m still at about 95% that he will suck for the duration of his career. He’s won me over to the tune of 4%.
Ok, so Knight sucks. So what? What can we do about it? Hope that Dumars trades him? Hope that he actually doesn’t suck? Neither of those seem remotely likely. So we’re just back to square one and stuck with a young PG with potential that will always suck, but that we will always hope won’t.
I think it's what you suggested above
That his best case scenario is Jason Terry. So let’s use him in a way that led Terry to be a part of a championship team rather than one that averaged under 30 wins per year.
You mean by surrounding him by one of the best frontcourts in the league in which the starting players complement each other perfectly and one of the greatest passing PGs in the history of the game?
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Terry's been immensely more successful in his 8 years with the Mavs, and the Mavs have rotated quite a few players through those years.
In his first year with the Mavs, his eFG jumped from 47.8% to 57%. His turnover% dropped from 14.7% to 10.5%. His WS/48 went from .101 to .149.
And actually his numbers dropped when Kidd joined the team. It’s pretty tough to argue that Terry hasn’t been an immensely better player with the Mavs than he was with the Hawks. To dismiss that improvement as nothing more than the people he plays alongside rather than a significant change in his role…well, that seems a poor use of data.
I think you’re taking my comment seriously when it was meant sarcastically. I wasn’t trying to say anything substantive about Jason Terry. In a very sarcastic way, I was suggesting that we can’t really use Knight like the Mavs use Terry. Terry is/was a complementary piece to a very dynamic, multifaceted offense.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
K, I see
Although I still don’t see why we couldn’t use him in a Terry-esque role just because we don’t have a true point guard or Dirk. Playing him out of position because we lack the proper personnel isn’t doing him or the team any favors.
Which speaks to a larger point. We have 4 players who are 25 years old or younger and legitimate NBA players (regardless of how good of a player one thinks Stuckey is, it’s clear he would have a role with most teams). Every one of them are playing out of position, or at least in a role that poorly suits them.
I don’t know for sure if Knight sucks, but Dumars sure as hell does.
uhhhh we have Dirk...
his name is Jonas Jerebitzki
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
he's showing signs of improvement already
The only thing that has tapered off in the last 10 games is his shooting, which is the smallest difference between his first 14 games and the last 10.
Averages for first 14 games: 4.9 FGM, 11 FGA, 43 assists (3.07), 45 turnovers (3.2), 8 (!) FTA
last 10 games: 4.7 FGM, 12.7 FGA, 38 assists (3.8), 24 turnovers (2.4), 36 (!) FTA
He’s frustrating because, like Gabe said, he’s so seductive to even the trained eye, but his stats just don’t show it. He has flashes of brilliance and then looks like a complete nincompoop at other times. But IF he’s going to develop into a star or even a worthwhile PG for this team, we need to understand it’s going to be a frustrating process. I’m encouraged by the improvements and — yeah, I’m going to freaking go there — it helps to know he’s a hard worker and is wicked sma’t because those are the type of people who will have a much better chance at improving than someone who is lazy and dumb.
by Packey on Feb 2, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
But my beef was really about his ball hogging, especially when he’s shooting poorly and his teammates aren’t.
Over the last 7 losses, Knight has taken 88 shots and only made 32 of them. At some point, you just have to stop shooting when you’re shooting that poorly.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
i'm going all ben gordon on this
he might as well keep shooting because he doesn’t do anything else well
He might as well keep shooting cuz he'll lead us to the land of One Eyebrow.
I have a hard time evaluating any of the talent on this team with the exception of Monroe simply because I have it in my head that Frank knows his only way out of this train wreck is to crash the train early in hopes of getting the necessary parts to re-build after the fact.
If he coached to win as many games as possible, he’d just end up hurting his chances in the long run. In fact, I half believe that at the ends of games, he’s telling the guys to run certain plays knowing they won’t work just to ensure we lose the close ones. Of course, its far easier to just play Tayshaun and allow us to get down by 20.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
I wonder how much of the shooting is due to Monroe being the biggest threat on this team?
I didn’t get to watch last night but I know that teams are gonna make Monroe a defensive focus. It doesn’t justify Knight throwing up 18 but it is going to inhibit Monroe most certainly.
The weakness I see here is that Knight is the PG, and ultimately, the PG determines where the ball goes. If Monroe doesn’t ever get the ball, Knight is partially at fault (although not exclusively, that’s a team-wide issue to address).
In other words, it doesn’t matter if Monroe’s getting double teamed or not if Knight (and the rest of the perimeter guys) are jacking up shots early in the clock without getting Monroe touches in the first place.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Yeah the other misleading stat when looking at shot attempts per 36
is Monroe gets almost 4 offensive rebounds a game. I’d say that at least 75% of the offensive rebounds he gets, he puts back up immediately. So 3 shot attempts a game are coming from his rebounding and not coming from actual set plays or passes made to him in the post.
If you look at it this way, then Knight is definitely taking more plays for himself rather than deferring to his teammates or more specifically Moose.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
And here is a place where I cede to your knowledge and experience
I don’t ever get to watch these games. So, from my perspective a 7-18 game from Knight could be eleven tough misses on good shots with no other options available, or they could be eleven forced shots, in traffic, early in the shot clock.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
Ben, who are these invisible guys who aren't shooting poorly?
The team is averaging 42.3% Aside from Sacramento’s incredible 40.2%, the Pistons are in an awful lump with four or five other teams for worst shooting percentage in the league.
Aside from Monroe and Jerebko, everyone else on the team (okay, save Macklin) is shooting BELOW THE (awful) TEAM AVERAGE!
It’s not like the guy is passing up Bird, Reggie Miller, and Kareem to take contested threes.
And at some point “you stop shooting”? Maybe, if there are better options. But hell, he’s also a rookie on a rueful team. As long as he plays hard and tries to figure out what’s going to work for him, I really don’t give a damn if he’s shooting at a meh percentage this year. If poor shooting automatically meant not shooting anymore, the Pistons would have a two man offense. And I think other teams could adjust to that.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
Re shooting percentage
I’ve been saying for a while now that if you look at the cumulative seaons stats for the Pistons and their opponents, while none look good for us, the FG% — both for us and for opponents — is mind-bogglingly depressing.
I know there are lots of fancy, advanced statistical metrics for evaluating basketball players, some I don’t understand, some I don’t trust. But when overall your team is so bad at “shooting the basketball” while at the same time your opponents are consistently much, much better at “shooting the basketball,” that’s a pretty good sign that some things are horribly wrong.
Yup, yup, yup, yup.
I’ve also noted the progress. And AP exam scores and media reports about a great work ethic only mean so much. But could it be that those very qualities are leading to a subtle improvement under very, very trying circumstances for a very inexperienced player?
I guess I’m much more at peace bitching about being subjected to Tay until he’s 35 than I am about a late lottery pick who clear has some potential, albeit a lot to improve upon.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 9:20 AM EST up reply actions
Let's See If His Game Matures
…no reason to not to be bullish on him at this point.
I could give a flying fuck whether you follow me or not on Twitter.
by V. on Feb 3, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
My biggest beef with your argument is coming from the samples that you are using.
first you are using past data on Stuckey compared to current data on Knight. These data sets do not have similar sample sizes. They are non comparable til the sample’s match up. By seasons end we can compare Stuckey at 21 to Knight at 20.
Second you are hopping your argument around between past Stuckey and present Stuckey. We’ve established that past Stuckey has no place in this argument yet but present Stuckey does. However, given the experience differences, Present Stuckey should be better than Knight is now. Now we’ve reached the point of a fair argument.
Now when we start making the accurate comparison we can see that right now Stuckey is in fact better than the much less experienced Brandon Knight. But is he so much worse to where we can say that he is in fact a terrible point guard when he has many factors not in his favor at this point? Between Isolayshaun and his attitude, about 3 other players that have a chance of scoring semi-efficiently, and the lack of normal pre-season basketball activity I’d have to say that so far Knight is coming along pretty good.
Now, by seasons end the whole preseason ceases to become a factor and our main goal’s with the numbers won’t be to see how bad or good they are going to be, but to see how much progress Knight made between the beginning of the season and the end of it. This season and all the fucked up things about it our main focus should be looking for progression through game logs and averages.
by madpoopz on Feb 2, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
first you are using past data on Stuckey compared to current data on Knight. These data sets do not have similar sample sizes. They are non comparable til the sample’s match up. By seasons end we can compare Stuckey at 21 to Knight at 20.
I have conceded this multiple times. Yes, the comparison isn’t perfectly fair. But taking your logic to its conclusion suggests that we cannot make any comparisons until the end of the season.
Frankly, I find this boring and uninteresting. I find Knight incredibly frustrating to watch. I want to compare him statistically to other players with whom I am familiar.
If I readily admit that the comparisons are flawed, why can’t I make the comparison?
Second you are hopping your argument around between past Stuckey and present Stuckey.
This was perfectly justified. The argument was presented that Knight shouldn’t be expected to get many assists with this current roster. I pointed to the other two PGs on the roster, Russel and Stuckey, to show that it’s possible to have a respectable assist rate. It just so happens that Stuckey remains on the roster, which is why I proceed to compare past and present Stuckey.
Stuckey the rookie, on one of the most efficient Pistons teams in history, assisted his teammates at a lower rate than current Stuckey on one of the worst Pistons teams in history.
If assists are a function of teammates, the example of present and past Stuckey is a glaring counter example.
But is he so much worse to where we can say that he is in fact a terrible point guard when he has many factors not in his favor at this point?
My argument is yes. I believe that at the end of this season, when we have 66 games of data, Stuckey’s rookies season will be > Knight’s rookie season. I am making that case as strongly as I can now with the flawed data sets I have because it’s one way for me to work out my frustration with Brandon Knight.
Now, by seasons end the whole preseason ceases to become a factor and our main goal’s with the numbers won’t be to see how bad or good they are going to be, but to see how much progress Knight made between the beginning of the season and the end of it.
I agree with the latter, not the former.
Monroe was awful to start the season last year. In calendar year 2012, he was amazing.
However, Monroe went from really bad to really good. I find that analysis useful. He didn’t just improve over the course of the season. He went from bad to really good, like franchise cornerstone good.
My opinion on Knight is that he will go from really really bad to really bad. So one the one hand, it’s good he’ll have made improvement. OTOH, if he’s still really bad, it’s hard to get excited about that (expectantly modest) improvement.
"With logic he attacks. With statistics he defends."
Frankly, I find this boring and uninteresting. I find Knight incredibly frustrating to watch. I want to compare him statistically to other players with whom I am familiar.
Wait, your bored with it so you want to make comparison with a large base in assumption? There is a lot of assumption in comparing different sample sizes. About the only things similar in the comparisons here are the fact that they were both rookies in this comparison. I can’t say that I disagree with you about Knight entirely because you are in fact right in a lot of ways, but in doing your argument this way you are essentially looking for inaccurate ways to prove yourself. Yes it’s fun to look up, but it does not make for a solid argument to stand upon.
I will concede the second point you raised about hopping between data sets. It does have valuable insight insight into how the team around a PG is responsible for assists.
The rest of it I’ll just leave up to agreeing to disagree. It’s not so much important one way or the other and we’ll probably have a lively debate later on in the season anyway. :)
This isn't a strong point:
“If I readily admit that the comparisons are flawed, why can’t I make the comparison?”
Well, if you’re saying it’s a flawed argument, it’s not that you can’t use it. But you probably shouldn’t. Because it’s…flawed.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
The thing about Knight is
That I feel his skill set largely duplicates players we already have. He seems to be a guard best suited to scoring the ball. We already have Stuckey, Gordon, and Bynum who are all guards best suited to scoring. Knight’s best skill is perimeter shooting and if he can keep shooting the 3 well, he will be valuable since our 3 point shooting is bad overall. He seems kinda streaky at it, but that might just be youth.
The main things I look for in a point guard are all apparently his weaknesses. He has some shaky handles and makes poor decisions leading to turnovers. He doesn’t seem able to significantly improve the teams offense with his passing. I am not as conscious of his defense so I will say that I am unsure about how much he can help us there.
I do not think the passing will come. He was not a gifted passer in college as I understand it, and in my opinion, passing is as much a skill as scoring. I do not think that it is an attitude that coaching can change.
All that said, he came into a difficult situation here with the shortened season and a bad roster. But so did lots of other rookies. Players can improve (particularly young players) so I’m not going to write him off, but I am worried that the team will overestimate his value and he will turn into a ball dominating volume shooter that will hurt our chances long term.
by Ra's Head on Feb 2, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I like this
A very level-headed appraisal, in my estimation.
But…I still got a feeling that smarts and work ethic might matter. Some guys never learn. But some do.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 9:37 AM EST up reply actions
You may be right, you may be wrong, Gurks...
But I’m not with you on him not passing “no matter how good his teammates are shooting the ball”. To be fair, this is the worst shooting team in the NBA and aside from Monroe, everyone is essentially awful at putting the ball in the hoop.
That—and inexperience—may explain him not being a better distributor. Maybe he won’t ever get there, but I still think you and others are being way to hard on a 19 year old who’s played 25 games on one of the worst teams in recent memory, (and who’s never even been to a pre-season camp).
Remember, we got 10 kyats riding on whether he’ll end up being better than Stuckey. Mmmmm…I can almost taste that 1/10 of a cigarette now!
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 7:06 AM EST up reply actions
I'd just wish they shut up about Knight't intelligence.
For me his 4.3 GPA holds very little meaning aside from him being a responsible student.
And we’re already being told how much of a hard worker he is, so it’s pretty much irrelevant. His ability to figure out a calculus equation or dissecting the multiple meanings of a literary piece doesn’t really correlate to his ability to read a defense or make a smart pass. There are different brands of intelligence and so far, while he may have been a very bright student, I’m still waiting for that basketball IQ to kick in.
Telling me how smart he is just makes me that much frustrated that he isn’t showing it.
(And this is no way me giving up on him or saying he is a bust. I simply find myself disappointed with his performance so far. However fair that may or may not be.)
Fire Joe Dumars
I kind of wonder if maybe there is something else there.
Maybe he is, and I’m not sure if this is the right word, a dick. Or an asshole, or a sociopath. One of those guys who is really smart, but has no regard for any other people. Watching him play against Deron Williams and it seemed like he took most things personally. Whenever Williams elevated over Knight for a shot you can bet that Knight would be calling his number on the next trip down the court. It seemed as early as the second quarter that he was going shot for shot with Williams, and it seemed like it really motivated him. I remember at one point at the end of the third quarter when he made a shot Deron Williams looked visibly upset and then got a delay of game after he made some sort of turnover.
Perhaps that is Knight’s thing. He’ll be a raging, throbbing, glaringly annoying douche. He is so dedicated to having his own personal glory that he’ll learn to become a more complete player, perhaps even a team player to the degree that it aids his personal glory. If he is enough of a dick to challenge all-star point guards, maybe he is enough of a dick to work his ass off all summer and become unstoppable just so he can talk shit about how awesome he is. Perhaps it’s a little like Jordan/Kobe thing where he has to be the best in an annoyingly dickish way and he’ll control the offense of whatever team he’s on like a terrorist controlling his hostages.
Welcome... to the Wallace-hood
If he is an egotistical douchebag (which I have no proof to support) that could just be chalked up to immaturity. He’s a young guy, wants to prove his place on the team and in the league, and wants to get his shots. Hopefully he’ll settle down as the season goes on or into his second year when he has time to reflect on his rookie season.
Personally, I’m not frustrated with any of our guys for playing poorly any more. I think I know what to expect from the roster we have. I want them to play together and play hard, but if Brandon Knight shoots 35% from the field instead of 45% I’m not going to let it get me down.
by garrettelliott on Feb 2, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
sounds like you're describing a competitor
If that makes him a douche, bring me more blocks and douches.
by Packey on Feb 2, 2012 1:12 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
That’s what I’m saying, it might be cool to have someone who isn’t afraid of Deron Williams and wants to go shot for shot with them. It’s one thing if he shoots a lot because they don’t get basketball. It’s another if he shoots a lot because he is trying to break the other team mentally.
Welcome... to the Wallace-hood
I think it might matter.
Agreed Calculus knowledge does not mean point guard skills. Still, I’ve taught enough of these superstar students to know that some are simply driven to do what others only dream about. GPA is often kinda meaningless. But you can’t fake AP scores and it takes a special intellect (and sense of purpose) to do what BK did in high school. Plus, it’s understood that he is an incredibly gifted athlete.
But again, let’s not forget that he’s only played a couple dozen games at a level in which the average third stringer was a star in college and an absolute monster in high school.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
dat comment
Personally, I’m not frustrated with any of our guys for playing poorly any more. I think I know what to expect from the roster we have. I want them to play together and play hard, but if Brandon Knight shoots 35% from the field instead of 45% I’m not going to let it get me down.
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
it's a meme
something desirable, and the face made from it
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dat-ass
This season’s a blur, one of the bugs on the windshield of the fine V8 Pistons ride as it travels down the highway. u r on teh rite trax sir
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
No, but I’m Satan’s father.
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
by sauce1977 on Feb 3, 2012 8:21 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i want more back-to-back-to-backs
get the losses racked up quick like
by mcflies on Feb 2, 2012 2:02 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
So true! If I have a busy few nights, I come back and suddenly we’ve lost 3 more games and we’re that much closer to the draft!
by garrettelliott on Feb 2, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
Hee Hee...
I was feeling the same. I’ve had this sense of “Wheeeee, look at us go!” these past few days.
My blogs: pakagankarachi.livejournal.com (dormant)
burmahunkalove.livejournal.com (occasional signs of life)
by MrHappyMushroom on Feb 3, 2012 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
what garrett elliott said just a few posts above
brandon knight is TWENTY!
even smart 20 year old dudes are morons. and generally self-centered, egomaniacal douchebags. I’m sure I was.
I was happy with the knight selection on draft night, because I thought he had the best chance to be some sort of useful nba player out of the remaining guys.
draft review—early returns suggest that the best guys who the pistons could have picked (instead of knight) are kemba, markieff morris, kawhi leonard, or iman shumpert.
I think arguments could perhaps be made for all of those dudes, but I don’t think even kemba would yet qualify as a jeryl sasser over tony parker type disaster. (orlando was even drafting for the same position!!!)
I hope knight becomes an excellent starting point guard in the future. or a useful jason terry type (but a better defender) on a team not so stupidly constructed as this one. that would be fine too. especially if that team has monroe AND anthony davis on it.
if drafting knight
results in unibrow i will never look back and rip on dumars for it.
Package Knight for Rondo!
Or trade him on draft night for Kendall Marshall + something something.
by aussiepiston on Feb 2, 2012 4:06 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
i have same wishes.
I also want to trade Prince and Knight for Thabeet, Terrence Williams and Jonny Flynn (love you Onions) plus Houston’s second first rounder (the 15th pick).
I could actually see Houston consider that. They declined QOs for each of those three young junkers and will trade them or let them walk. Houston had Shane Battier forever and did quite well with him, they might consider Prince a replacement for that veteran glue on the wing. He’d be a fourth option again, and his finesse style play would be better suited to the Western Conference. If we can trade Knight before the deadline, before other GMs completely lose interest, we might be able to snag that 15th pick off of their hands.
It’d basically be two trades in one: Prince for Thabeet, Williams and Flynn, then Knight for the 15th pick.
I would hope to offer vet-level contracts to Thabeet, Williams and Flynn to stick around through training camp and determine precisely what their value is when you take the draft bust blinders off. As for Knight and the 15th pick, you could argue that his potential is worth that price, and 15th is a good range in this coming draft.
No way Joe would even consider either, though. First, because he’s an idiot and he’s committed to Prince, and second because he (and Gores) seem convinced that Knight is the future even though he’s not a fucking point guard, and it is likely to take him three, maybe four years to develop a passing game if he’s even able to.
oh and the point of this trade is to use Knight’s “potential” to get us out of Prince’s contract while bringing in another pick in the 2012 draft. If Thabeet, Williams and Flynn even show an ounce of promise, any chance to find a cheap, deep rotation player would be a very nice bonus.
Since it is likely to take Knight many years to develop a passing game, the trade value of “potential” will likely die off after this coming trade deadline.
Mock NBA drafts this early aren't usually my forte, so
In the spirit of hypothetical trades, is it possible that with said 15th pick, we could maybe even get a 1 with BETTER skill set/potential than Knight? I read somewhere that given how loaded this draft is, a 20th pick is like top 10 for an average draft; that’s put that 15th right around where we drafted Knight last year.
All this draft talk is ridiculous this early
A good number of players that want to get picked in the upper lottery will probably wait a year, I doubt that there will be all of these players showing up in the draft after the tournament.
Welcome... to the Wallace-hood
I don’t think it’s necessary for us to draft a point guard if we move Knight. Thanks to the brilliant signing of Rodney Stuckey, we’re at least okay in that position for two more years while we develop. If we can’t find a good point guard in the draft, we shouldn’t draft an okay one (like we did last year).
But if we were able to grab the 15th pick, Kendall Marshall might still be on board in that range. He’s basically a 6’4" Rondo. Incredibly pure point guard who is very committed to defense and has a size advantage over most point guards. He can’t shoot, but is effective within the perimeter when he does take a shot, scoring 53% of the time.
This is one hell of a read about Marshall. Some highlights:
Marshall’s biggest strength is far and away his passing ability as evidenced by his 40.7% assist rate last year
fapfapfap
UNC plays at one of the fastest tempos in the country (71.7 possession per game, 16th in the nation) and Marshall is quite adept at triggering and leading the break.
fapfapfapfapfap
Marshall will be required to feed the post with precision. You can see in the video that even under pressure, he is able to navigate around his defender through the use of pivots and ball fakes to find the passing lane.
In other words, he’s the type of guy to FEED THE MOOSE. fapfapfapfapfap
The problem is that he can’t shoot threes and plays like Stuckey around the basket. Sans HEY! But if Stuckey had Marshall’s passing game, I think we would have been fine with his facepalm-inducing finishability.
He probably will drop to or beyond 15 unless he does something amazing in March. The reason he’s not ranked higher now isn’t because he’s not producing brilliantly as a point guard. It’s because scouts, the people who write mock drafts and the GMs that follow along are very good at not evaluating players objectively.
Admittedly, if Trey Burke left Michigan this season, I'd take a flyer on him in the 2nd round.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
Scratch that...I like this guy from Iona Scott Machado
6’1", 180, and is leading the NCAA in assists for the second straight season currently averaging 10 assists per game to go along with 13 points and 5 boards. He’s also shooting 41% from beyond the arch, 49% from the field, and 82% from the line.
His O-Rating is O-Rating is a ridiculous 122 with a sub 100 D-Rating and averaging 1.4 steals per game.
He’s currently listed as a 2nd rounder in the 50-60 range given the size of his school/competition.
He’s got 12 games this season of at least 10 assists, and 6 games of at least 14 assists. His season assist to turnover ratio is about 3:1, and his best game came against St. Joseph’s where he put up 33 points, 10 assists, 5 boards, and 4 steals. Most recently, Iona lost to Purdue but Machado still racked up an efficient 14 points, 11 assists, and 5 rebounds.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
Let me be abundantly clear
No trade we do during the season should result in bringing in better players that would ultimately help us win more games. To do so will simply sabotage us after we as fans have had to endure mind-numbingly terrible basketball for the majority of the season.
By the trade deadline (3/15 I believe), we will have played 43 of our 66 games. With only 1/3 of the season remaining at that point, trading for better players now could actually kill our chances of getting even better players in the draft.
As much as it pains me to say this, the only trades I’m willing to accept at this point are TPE’s, draft picks, expiring contracts of players that are shitty (read Chris Kaman), or cash considerations.
I’d rather Joe Dumars “wait” (in parenthesis because he’s not really waiting, he’s just not doing anything) until the off-season to pull a trade.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
As much as it pains me to say this, the only trades I’m willing to accept at this point are TPE’s, draft picks, expiring contracts of players that are shitty (read Chris Kaman), or cash considerations.
Sounds like you’re in agreement.
yup...see post above for draft day dream #1.
I just hope he’s not this year’s Art Parakhouski…
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
After reading all these comments
As a primary lurker/minimum contributor; I love you all and I love this site.
Anyways, since this has become about Knight… the comparisons to Stuck sadden me, but at this rate, like said before, I’m so used to this team being bad, I’ll be more happy at one good game then 5 bad games. Just any hope that the potential is in fact there is a bright enough light for me at this point in this shittastic season.
by blubomber17 on Feb 3, 2012 4:01 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
real answer
probably the best option is http://www.mysynergysports.com – the stats are now open to the public, but the video is still a subscription service. Once their (horrible) interface loads in the window, type in “monroe” in the search bar and then select Greg when his name appears in the drop-down menu. Three columns will appear— stats, offense and defense. Under the defense category, you’ll see the types of plays Monroe has defended, the number of times he’s defended that play, the PPP (points per possession) for that play that he allowed, his rank in the NBA at that play type and the field goal percentage he allowed.
If you subscribe to Synergy, you can watch every video available for each play type, but the core numbers are what’s really interesting.
Synergy is probably the best metric to evaluate individual defensive performance. It’s not 100% accurate, because it still requires a human decision on who is ultimately responsible for defending a specific play. However, compared to anything else, it is the most accurate and effective metric, IME.
what kind of defensive stats?
basketball-reference.com is generally a good start.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
oh yeah basketball-reference probably doesn't have that.
Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.
Love Beer? Me too! http://jimbobsbeerblog.wordpress.com/
Follow me on twitter: #JimBobsBeerBlog
you can't
82games if you can figure out a way to interpret their shit. and then try to figure out if it means anything. and i haven’t been to that site this season so i don’t know if they have updated statistics or not. there are adjusted +/- stats for lineups if you google that, but those are pretty much worthless unless you pretend they aren’t.
basketball-reference and hoopdata are my go to places
agreed re: 82games
their metrics are head-scratchy. Take opponent PER for example. They do that comparative PER stat to determine a player’s performance at a certain position. The question (which they haven’t answered as far as I can tell) is how do they determine when a player is playing which position. Then, how do they tell who’s defending who? Consider a team like Detroit, where no one plays their natural position and errbody’s switching up— how do they come up with an average number without having data on who is actually playing against who?
If Stuckey and Gordon are playing at the 1 and the 2 on offense, then switch on defense, does their system account for that? When Stuckey slides over to the 2 on offense when Knight is in the game, does their system account for that?
IME, it’s more questionable than it is valuable.
Something to say? Choose one of these options to log in.
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on Detroit Bad Boys
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
