The offseason has barely started and there’s already been a ton of trade rumors, most of which I haven’t really addressed here. In addition to the Zach Randolph stuff (which I don’t put much weight in), there’s now this: the New York Daily News reports that Isiah Thomas might be targeting Rasheed Wallace. I discussed the rumor over at the FanHouse. An excerpt of my own thoughts:
Just what is Thomas thinking about giving up? If it’s dead weight (albeit of the expiring contract variety) like Steve Francis, there’s no chance Joe Dumars would pull the trigger. If it’s Jamal Crawford and Channing Frye … hmm, that could be interesting. And if Dumars can convince Thomas to put together any type of package involving rebounding machine David Lee, I probably wouldn’t even care if Detroit got stuck with a couple of bad contracts like Quentin Richardson and/or Jerome James.
Yes, it still feels weird excerpting my own words — sorry for the tease, hope you made it over to read the whole thing. For what it’s worth, Natalie from Need4Sheed (who first pointed me in the direction of the Daily News article) thinks either Flip Saunders or Rasheed Wallace will return next season, but not both. And since Saunders is reportedly safe, well, she thinks Rasheed might need a real estate agent.
What do you guys think? Rasheed is due $26.2 million over the next two years so he wouldn’t be easy to move, but I could see a handful of franchises looking to add “the missing piece” willing to roll the dice if the Pistons are game. I’m not in a rush to move the guy, but he will be 33 years old by next season, making him the oldest of Detroit’s core four.
Foolishness. In one year Rasheed Wallace will have a $13 million expiring contract. Teams will be lining up to talk trade, and with that kind of cap ballast the Pistons could acquire significant talent. Meanwhile we’d be taking on softies like Frye and erratic players like Crawford.
This is pure panic talk, a couple days after a bitter loss. Do Sheed and Flip have differences? If so, suck it up. We’re not here to be Knicks North.
I posted today on both Need4Sheed and the Freep that I believe that the Pistons would be wise to move Rasheed if for no other reason that the NBA has determined (albeit with a nod and a wink) that no team with Rasheed Wallace on it will ever appear again in the Finals, ever. That’s the only explanation I can see for the refereeing in the ECF that we witnessed. This of course fits with the theme of the way Dallas got screwed last year as well (Mark Cuban substituting for Wallace). How long the NBA can keep this up without pissing off real fans enough to hurt the bottom line is an open question, but in the short term …
As a Knicks fan and blogger, I wouldn’t mind Sheed. He fits the needs of the Knicks (PF with range to play alongside Curry). I would also like Jason Maxiell, too, if possible. Two problems:
One, as is always the question with Knicks’ trade rumors, what do the Knicks have that Detroit would want? I don’t think Crawford would get it done (unless they are moving Rip Hamilton, too). Frye would be a must, but is he enough? David Lee is untradeable, as he is the Knicks’ most popular player, and the outrage would be too much. I would love to package Frye and Crawford for ‘Sheed (Crawford’s contract runs 4 years, FYI, unless he opts out after the second year).
Secondly, I don’t think (Knicks owner) James Dolan likes “character” issues on his team. He’s very much opposed to those kind of players, so ‘Sheed may be a tough sell for him.
I wouldn’t mind moving Sheed if we could get David Lee in return, but only as long as we can get another offensive post presence during the offseason. I know Sheed didn’t always play in the post, jacking up 3’s like crazy during the regular season, but when we needed someone to score, it was usually Sheed from the baseline. Swapping him for a great rebounder/defender like David Lee will leave a gaping hole in the offense, especially during the fourth quarter, most especially since Flip has gotten away from using Hamilton off screens.
Generally with this team, I don’t mind moving any of our players, but I don’t want to downgrade. That’s why I can’t see us letting Chauncey go, because outside of Kidd, Nash, Deron Williams, or Chris Paul, anyone else would be a downgrade, and none of them are available. I think that Sheed, Hamilton, Prince, and Webber are certainly upgradable, but don’t trade them for crap.
In Joe we trust
Sheed needs to go. While he was the player that got us over the hump, his departure may be the key to future success both short and long term. Sheed is not the player he used to be and has turned into almost just a shooter. Add to that his awful attitude and propensity towards fouls (specifically technicals) and its time for sheed to move on. If we can get a rebounder like David Lee and an expiring contract or draft pick, I say make the move.
This idea of Sheed to the Knicks only took off because Sam Smith, the laziest journalist in America, speculated on it a few days ago. He literally makes up trades out of thin air. You would think a writer with the kind of access and contacts of the Chicago Tribune would bother to make a few phone calls to see what teams are actually considering. He simply makes things up, ALL THE TIME. Until there is ANY indication that someone who matters is thinking about this kind of deal, all this talk is a waste of time.
@King - Almost just a shooter? How about the team’s premiere defender?
Expiring contracts only save the Pistons money. They do not re-invest it.
Just for our records, when was the last time the Pistons had an expiring contract of any consequence?
Darko was a rookie deal. Okur, the same. Cliff Robinson? Team was in a different place at the time, and it wasn’t that much anyway.
It costs nothing for Zeke to float this kind of stuff, and it helps create an impression that some of his untradeables are actually desired. New York papers are willing accomplices, because they need someone like LB to build up and tear down. So the hope is that a GM gives in to the hysteria. I’m pretty sure they know Joe is the last guy to do that, but it’s worth a shot.
I wouldn’t say that this scenario is totally implausible. If Rasheed is going to end up a Knick, it’s almost certainly going to require a 3rd team to be involved.
There are two other scenarios I’ve heard out there. One was floated by Bill Simmons, Rasheed to Washington, Jamison to Portland, and Randolph to Detroit. I don’t buy that. The thought of Randolph coming home terrifies me, though. The other scenario, and I can’t remember where I heard it, is Sheed could be part of a deal to Phoenix that would net us Shawn Marion. If we were going to go the Golden State route and try to go small, I guess that would make sense, but I just don’t know what we can legitimately expect to get in return for Rasheed. It almost seems like it would be more simple to hand Flip his walking papers.
Oh, that’s right. Jerry Stackhouse was going into an expiring deal. And we used him to save money with … Rip Hamilton. Wow, maybe the Pistons aren’t tightwads when they have the right bargaining chips.
I’ve heard several people (not just here) refer to Zach Randolph “coming home.” He’s from Indiana, and he spent one season at MSU before turning pro. Unless we’re generalizing home to be “the Midwest,” I don’t see it. In fact, he just built a house not to far from Chicago, who might be even more desperate to acquire him if he’s available.
As for Shawn Marion, he’s a small forward in my eyes. A good rebounder, yes, but still small. Plus, I get the impression he wants to be “the man” more than “a winner” — he’s complained about playing second and third fiddle to Nash and Stoudemire in Phoenix.
I like the idea of getting one more season out of Sheed before moving his contract, but I’m also in favor of kick-starting the “re-building” (I hate that word, especially in this context — maybe “re-tooling” would be better) if the right player can be had.
The reason I thought about Crawford is that I figured he could be a decent third guard who could back up both Rip and Chauncey — he has his faults, but most bench players do (and yes, I realize he’d be an expensive backup. I’m just brainstorming here …). Frye is soft, but he’s cheap and can score and would probably be easy to deal in the future. I’m sure there are better packages that can be created, though …
Sorry for the “coming home” snafu. I knew he was from Indiana, but I sort of generalized it to “the place he played college ball”. And for the record, his contract is what is terrifying to me.
Other Matt: I definitely wasn’t try to single you out — a lot of media guys have been saying the same thing.
Zach’s character should bother you. The guys doesn’t have an atom of Pistons DNA, and would instantly become the franchise player. He’s the antithesis of Grant Hill. And not in a good way.
Re-tooling and re-building are just code words for unpopular change. We re-tooled after the title by bringing in Arroyo, Antonio McDyess and Derrick Coleman. We re-tooled after the Finals loss by bringing in Dale Davis, Mo Evans and Tony Delk. We re-tooled after last season by bringing in CWebb, NazMo and Flip Murray.
Re-tooling is a constant process. The Spurs swapped out of both of their centers this year. Cleveland added another Boob to their lineup.
LF, correction. EXPIRED contracts only save the Pistons money. Ben Wallace and Kelvin Cato. We dropped around $14 million off the books last season and added back approx. $7 million in new players. New players that barely played because no one else wanted them and neither did the Pistons as both were on the trade block as soon as they were eligible.
My bad.
I might suggest that we now have more than enough evidence (a rookie is breathed upon and gets shots, our leading scorer gets mugged regularly and get bupkis) over two seasons that the NBA will never, ever let Rasheed Wallace back into the finals. Nobody has to say anything, its all just a wink and a nod, but as long as the refs and David Stern are on the same page with this, we’re screwed as long as we keep Rasheed on our roster. He can still help a lesser program get out of the first round so he has some value. It probably won’t be the Knicks, but I think something is going to happen before the summer is through. And it really has nothing to do with Flip.
Everyone agrees that Rasheed is still one of the most potent post players in the league. Heck, most of the Pistons call him the best pure player on the team. Why is everone so quick to think that trading the player who helped get us the championship is a logical move? Larry Brown proved Sheed could be coached, we just need a coach who can command that kind of respect. Flip Saunders has failed two years in a row to use the bench effectively and make the right adjustments. After what we just witnessed in the Conference Finals, do you really think anyone was listening to Flip?
The Pistons got Cato to clear money for Ben, but once someone decided to overpay for Ben (and thank goodness it wasn’t the Pistons…), they weren’t allowed to go over the cap. It’s unfortunate, but not indicative that the team is cheap, in my eyes.
The players the Pistons ended up getting — Nazr and Flip — filled positions of need. Nazr was the best remaining center on the market, as sad as that fact is in hindsight.
In hindsight, we got Webber so we probably could have used Nazr’s money elsewhere. But Bonzi Wells, the only other player I remember fans clamoring for, ended up playing the waiting game on everyone and settled for a cheap contract in Houston, where he once again turned into a head case.
@ Matt - That’s not accurate re: allowed to go over the cap. The Pistons had Ben Wallace’s Bird Rights. They could have paid him more than anyone else in the league.
They acquired Cato’s contract specifically for the purpose of lessening the cost to the payroll, not to create cap room. Lose $8 million off the books, add it to Ben’s salary and we’re at almost $15 million.
If they really wanted to keep Ben, they could have used the 5th year as leverage, and (I believe) front loaded the contract as Chicago did so that his impact on the books would not be as much over time.
Every time cheapness comes up, there is never a smoking gun. Always some plausible explanation why things go the way they do. We’ll see what happens when CB gets on the market. If the Pistons balk at paying big money, we’ll likely fall to the bottom 5 teams in total salary. We were 24th this season before we signed Webber.
Don’t get me wrong, in the case of Billups and the current situation with the team, post-Wallace, the evaluation process has to be different than it was last year, and perhaps even more cold and business like.
I’m with you Chris.
We easily have one of the top 5 teams in the league, talent-wise. I dont see why we cant attract a proven coach.
Micro: We’re getting off point.
I know the Pistons could have gone over the cap to match Chicago’s offer, but many people (including myself) think it was a wise decision they didn’t. (And I’m pretty sure that was clear in my last comment.) He’s not worth it. It’s not a matter of being cheap, it’s a matter of having the foresight to see when a player has peaked and is rapidly declining.
But that’s an argument about talent evaluation, not economics. I don’t think Detroit’s decision to let Ben leave (let alone not offer another year when many people think Chicago already offered too much) proves anything.
I think Matt’s right about Ben not being worth the money. Can you imagine paying him $16 million for what he provided the Bulls this past season? Heavens, no. How about $14 million in 2009-2010? That is the very definition of “cap albatross”.
Anyway, I’ve been thinking about this whole coaching situation. I’m kind of warming up to the thought of Laimbeer wandering the sidelines. He always seems to be right on top of things when he’s broadcasting, my guess is there are times he wants to scream at Flip doing something stupid. Plus, he’s hated by everybody else in the league, which is one of the things I love about him. I know it won’t happen. Sigh.
Matt, I will be covering the beejeezus out of the business side over the next month. For someone like me, trying to analyze and forecast is the only salve for how things turned out.
Yeah, no one wants to have another Wallace debate, but we’ve got a good conversation going on at my place about adding a center, and if you look at the options, the best of the list might be Chris Mihm. Chris Freaking Mihm.
Losing Wallace hurts in a league were 50% of the starters at that position suck and all of the better 5s make the playoffs pretty much every season.
For a capped out team, you either spend, or you shed talent. Every decision has a consequence (sign or decline). But when I saw CWebb running up the court (if you can call that running) and NazMo styling his warmups, I didn’t feel a lot better that the Pistons saved the money.
To make an analogy, a car might be too expensive for you to maintain, but without it, you’ll be riding the bus.
On to this year, it should be really interesting to see what happens with Billups, because after you shed one of the core, and another needs a big raise that could keep you from adding veteran depth, all of a sudden, cutting the cord might look a lot more attractive than tying up long term money in an enterprise that might need, ahem, “re-tooling”.
Guys you all have some great points. I really think Sheed will be here for the long run. Plus he played great during the playoffs.He is the only player who really played like he wanted to win another ring. I know something is going to happen I just don’t what. I trust Joe D to right by all of us. If you all remember when we lost last year Joe D was in the media showing his support for Flip and talking about the players. Not this year. He has not said a word! I feel he is a little pissed. He will do something! As far as us being cheap well thats BS. Joe D is just smart and this team is build to win ever year. I once heard him say that Mr. D never told him to make sure we are under the cap.
From what I see, it’s only Saunders saying that he will still be coach (not the big cheese). I’m not too sure If he will be coach or not.
I’d really like to get rid of Flip Saunders, Webber, Hunter, and Nazr (I dont really see Blalock doing much for us either). As for a coach I’m kind of open, I’d take Brown or Laimbeer (Brown got us a championship and to game 7 of the Finals, Laimbeer won 2 championships for the Shock in his short time there. I’m still even open to any coach except Saunders, he has a great team, you cant chalk up his success here just as good coaching. I never really liked him. He’s proven to always choke once we get deep into the playoffs.
Either Webber retires, or let him sign somewhere else. Trade Nazr for a younger tall center who (hopefully) can defend, rebound and have some low post skills. Hunter should just retire, I don’t see him getting any better. I’d resign Dale Davis for a year or two pretty much for Shaq (any big guy really…), he don’t seem to bad for his age (much more mobile than “glass knee’s” Webber). Keep Mcdyess for few if he still wants to play. Even keep Murray for Billups backup. Murray ain’t to bad, he needs to share the ball more.
I want Amir Johnson on the regular rotation. Bring over Cheikh Samb and give him some minutes (not to many) to get him some practice for next year. I would like to see more minutes from Maxiell and Delfino.
And what is the point of having Dupree on our team? Really…..
Excellent stuff, guys.
I like the idea of keeping Rasheed because the names mentioned as a direct replacement at power forward . . . they don’t measure up. All of them are moves to get younger, not better.
We need a guy who will clean up the boards on offense and defense and play a solid post game so that Rasheed could return to being the inside help instead of the primary option. Rasheed became the main defender when guys like Mohammed and Webber filled the center role. He’s strapped to the limit every night out there, and people wonder why he goes bananas . . . when you watch Webber or Mohammed defend a guy, they can barely handle a Zydrunas Ilgauskas, and that’s sad because half of the league’s centers are about as talented as Z . . . usually on only one side, offense or defense.
Mohammed worked in San Antonio because he was there to clean up offensive boards from missed perimeter shots. I don’t remember San Antonio calling plays for Nazr. He worked exactly like Oberto does . . . neither Oberto or Mohammed are as effective when they’re the main guy in the paint, that much is now clear.
I mentioned Utah and Okur because Mohammed would work well with cleaning up for Utah’s perimeter players and playing 2nd banana to Boozer.
Okur, from a drawback perspective, is a younger version of Webber with slightly better range on his shot. Okur’s faster than Webber, but who isn’t? Okur’s not a great defender, either . . . but despite all that, it gives any team 30-odd minutes to fill in a starting role, and that’s better than Nazr losing his starting job yet again with Detroit this year. Nazr’s style doesn’t fit in Detroit.
If Detroit could get a guy like David Lee in the draft, then the Pistons would once again be fronting 5 solid starters on the court, which is usually at least 2 more legitimate starters than most teams in the NBA. Otherwise, if they could find that rebounding center . . . I don’t know.
It’s obvious that if Chauncey leaves, this team starts moving guys left and right.
However, as far as a Chauncey returns for scenario . . . I really don’t think Detroit should deal any of the Starting Four . . . Chauncey, Rip, Prince, and Rasheed. Rest of the guys? For sure.
Two things really ruined Detroit . . .
1. Flip Saunders really isn’t the best X’s and O’s guy.
Only one minor ponder about Lindsey guarding LeBron . . . it was probably brought on by foul trouble or some sort of panic mode, since I remember Tayshaun guarding Tim Duncan to close the half during Game 7 of the 05 Finals due to foul trouble with our bigs . . . and man did that fail. If there’s any other reason why guys like Chauncey and Lindsey were giving up size and height advantages to LeBron for defensive assignments, then this one goes right there with subbing Lindsey and Flip to start Game 6’s 4th quarter as one of those “oh no” moments for all time.
2. Joe Dumars hasn’t put together the best benches since the ‘05 offseason.
Tony Delk? Maurice Evans? Flip Murray? Chris Webber? Some of these moves were forced-hand (Nazr Mohammed in wake of Ben Wallace to Chicago), but others seemed to be made with a fit in mind . . . those fits never happened, for various reasons.
Why hasn’t Carlos Delfino earned enough playing time to be a major minutes-eater off the bench for Rip and Tayshaun? Why can’t Delfino be the next man off the bench after Antonio McDyess? Why do we still have this guy, otherwise?
umm Sauce? Hunter was on LeBron in the hopes that he’d be able to frustrate LeBron like he did last year.
As far as your other “personnel recommendations” I think you’re wrong. The team can only go so far with a front line of 30-somethings, and instead of turning into the 2004 LA Lakers or the Miami Heat, why not get rid of the guys while they still have 1, 2 or 3 years of value left? While I realize they’re not quite the 2006 Miami Heat, I also know that the talent level at the PF/C position (where Sheed and Dyess both play) is ridiculously thin. I believe the true value on the team lies in the team’s SG, Richard Hamilton. He’s a guy that a lot of teams might overvalue because he’s a minutes eater and he’s hardly ever hurt and he can fill it up with 20ppg a night. The problem is, he cannot create his own shot. When he dribbles and tries to create, I almost have to close my eyes and hope that a travel or “palming the ball” violation isn’t called…
I don’t believe any of the guys on the Knicks roster outside of David Lee and Channing Frye have any value (to Detroit) other than when their contracts are about to expire.
Get value out of Rip, deal him for athletes, and get a big and a little in the draft. The building block of the team has to be Tayshaun, all others to me are available for the right price.
I think you are all missing the point.
The point is that people are saying “trade” “Isiah” and “Pistons” in the same sentence.
That should have anyone who has paid attention to Isiah’s “career” just about passing out with excitement.
The talk of the Rasheed trade, while dismaying at first (having come to appreciate the eccentricities that make him a fan favorite and a powder keg) grew into excitement at the prosepect for growth and change. This excitement took me to the ESPN Trade Machine where I began tinkering with things.
Obviously, many trades line up money-wise while offering little for one team or both. I did stumble across across a trade while exploring the old Bonzi Wells for Nazr Mohammed rumors from the deadline that works for both teams (arguably). It isn’t perfect but the idea intrigues me:
Delfino and Mohammed to Houston for Luther Head and Shane Battier
There have obviously been no rumors to support this and it’s probably a pie-in-the-sky idea but I’m curious what everyone else thinks of this.
The rockets think they can use Battier to get Rashard Lewis. So they wouldn’t want to give him up unless they got a great scorer which they wont in Delfino or Mohammad. Plus I think Adelman has plans for Head since he seems like we’ll be a key guy if they want to run
Boney, we could go at it all day.
I’ll save the trouble, since we seem to be complete opposites.
I don’t wantto Sheed go, but for the sake of conversation, I could see a Rasheed and the No. 27 pick to Denver for Marcus Camby. I see a lot of “RUMORS” on the NET that Denver may be willing to deal Camby. For Detroit, you get a Ben Wallace quality defender with and (almost Sheed) on the low block. For Denver, you get an excellent 3 point shooter who can post up when he wants to.
Thoughts anyone??
If the choice is keep Flip “Abramoff look alike” Saunders or Sheed, the answer is obvious — DUMP FLIP.
Then if Larry Brown is available, do whatever it takes to get him. If not, there are other options: 1) Hubie Brown; 2) Bill Laimbeer; 3) Terry Porter; 4) Jeff Van Gundy — all who would love to coach Detroit, with the possible exception of Hubie Brown.
Sauce, I’m not necessarily arguing with you, I’m just saying that to keep this team together as a unit of 4 and a center is to allow themselves to slowly lose their value as individuals who can be traded for better than average players.
Rasheed Wallace is still one of the best PF in the game, there are a lot of teams that would want him on their teams (attitude and all). Same goes for Richard Hamilton, he’s a consistent scorer and he’s hardly ever injured.
Why keep Rasheed when he can be traded for younger guys? Why keep Hamilton when he can be traded for full value rather than keep him until he’s lost his value. I’ve never seen someone want to build around a SG that cannot either create his own shot or who can hit consistently from 3. Rip can’t do either, his game is mid-range, not many people in the NBA have a great mid-range game like Rip, but maybe that’s more because it’s not important to hit the 12 foot runner than it is to create and/or hit consistently from 3.
That’s all I’m saying, I’m not arguing with you. I’m looking at ways to get more value out of the 4 we have now. The 4 we have now can be turned into keep 3 and add 2 pieces to bring depth to the bench. Tayshaun can pick up the scoring load, he proved that in the 1st 2 rounds of the playoffs PLUS all of last year’s playoffs.