This is a kick to the stomach:
The Toronto Raptors acquired guard Carlos Delfino from the Detroit Pistons on Friday.
In exchange, the Pistons will receive second-round picks in both the 2009 and 2011 drafts.
The native of Argentina was a first-round selection by Detroit in 2003. He played in all 82 games this past season, posting career highs of 5.2 points and 3.2 rebounds per game.
“Carlos is a talented basketball player that should thrive in our system,” Raptors general manager Bryan Colangelo said. “Like many international players that come to the league, he has much more professional experience than his NBA resume suggests.”
The way I see it, this has to be a precursor to another move, be it moving up in the draft or clearing salary to sign a free agent. But still, anyone who’s read this site over the past couple of years knows that Delfino has been something of a patron saint to DBB — this is a sad, sad day. More to come later.
(Thanks for the tip, Matt G., even if it did ruin the start of my weekend)
Update: I just posted a few thoughts over at the FanHouse, and I see Keith Langlois had this on Pistons.com:
The move clears almost $2 million in room under the NBA’s salary cap and would appear to make it even more likely that the Pistons will have a roster spot available for Alex Acker, a 2005 second-round draft choice who spent last season in Greece after playing his rookie year with the Pistons.
There is also a very good possibility that the Pistons will draft a perimeter player with the 15th pick of the June 28 draft, given the way the draft is shaping up. Among the possibilities there are small forwards Al Thornton of Florida State and Thaddeus Young of Georgia Tech, shooting guard Nick Young of Southern Cal and combo guard Rodney Stuckey of Eastern Washington – all players who would have competed with Delfino for playing time.
Roster spots are scarce in Detroit, let alone rotation spots, so if they really wanted an incoming rookie to play, I guess moving Delfino was inevitable. I’m just disappointed the team doesn’t anticipate taking a backup PG with the No. 15 pick, which was certainly a position of need.
Update: OK, some of your comments below have already made me feel (a little) better about this trade, especially this one by Michael Noveck. I dislike the fact that Delfino will probably get the chance to reach his potential on another team, but he is entering a contract year, and there really was little to no chance that he’d want to re-sign beyond this year.
Also, while the idea of a second-round pick (or even two of them) doesn’t jump out at me, there’s really no telling who might be the next Gilbert Arenas, Carlos Boozer, Memo Okur, Rashard Lewis, Michael Redd, Manu Ginobili, Monta Ellis, Paul Millsap, Zaza Pachulia … or Amir Johnson. Besides, second-round picks have a chip on their shoulder, which I think we all want to see more of.
It ruined my weekend too. The only positive I can take from this is that he was traded to my second favourite team and he should get playing time.
But Dumars better have another move. Me and my friend talked about this and heres a possibility: Amir will play sf next season. Sorta makes sense but I would have prefered to trade Murray or bench him and play delfino at the 2 and amir at the 3. Delfino was a defensive man off the bench and he had athleticism and could shoot off the dribble.
I think I’m going to be watching raps next season more than I was hoping for
So much for the 2003 draft.
this is great news for Delfino!!! he gets to escape the hell-hole known as the Pistons bench/rotation.
I look forward to him becoming a candidate for most improved player next year! he has a bright future.
Now is the summer of our discontent.
Delfino didn’t give this team very much. Its good to see we’re moving in a more athletic direction. Some people have been thinking PG at the 15 spot but I don’t think any of those guys were ready for the 15-20 minutes of action they would need to contribute regularly. I think you’ll see us go for a veteran backup PG through trade or free agency and use the draft pick on a SF like Thornton, Nick or Thaddeus Young, Byars, etc. Amir may get some playing time as well at that spot.
Delfino was worth a shot, but he didn’t pan out. Best of luck to him in Toronto where he may be a better fit. Its just too bad we couldn’t have gotten a little more for him.
I dont like it. We got nothing for him NOW! He played pretty well this year and is a very good defender. Can we please get rid of Nazi? Dale Davis? Flip Murray? 3 wasted roster spots in my opinion! This reminds me of Kelvin Cato for Darko, Darko might not be a superstar but Kelvin Cato? I still say the problem is the coach. Flip doesnt have what it takes to win a NBA title. He is consistantly out coached and cannot make the necessary adjustments and doesnt have the respect of his players. Hire Billy Laimbeer the guy is exactly what we need! Flip should be coaching the ladies since he is as soft as victorias secret
“Its good to see we’re moving in a more athletic direction.”
Delfino was one of the more athletic players on the team. If this was done with the draft in mind, I don’t see why it happened now instead of closer to the draft.
You contradicted yourself Mat by saying “It’s good to see we are moving in a more athletic direction” (By getting rid of delfino) …when in reality Carlos Delfino is/was one of our most athletic players! he just never got to show it sadly.. but he will in Toronto.
haha u beat me to it matt!!
jimmy: “So much for the 2003 draft.”
That’s not true at all. Don’t forget, the reason the Pistons have the No. 15 pick is because they acquired it from Orlando in the Darko trade. The 2003 draft lives on!
(Actually, it’s the 1995 draft that lives on … Randolph Childress was traded for Otis Thorpe, who was traded for a pick that eventually became Darko, who was traded for Cato and this year’s No. 15.)
Rodney White was worse then darko selection.. Joe has had some huge debacles. Lets hope he doesnt at 15
I loved Delfino, but if Detroit can get their hands on either Nick Young or Thaddeous Young that is an upgrade over Carlos. Im just pissed that they traded Delfino for chump change.
motownman thats exactly what I was saying to my friend. They could have gotten more. I think they could have gotten a first round, if not maybe something. Joe D is making me slowly angry.
Much like M.Watson, I was a big Delfino fan. No question he will excel in the Raptors offense. I wonder, however, if this is a move to setup a Mo Pete or Grant Hill signing. Personally, the sting of this deal would be softened if it brought Peterson into our rotation. His consistent production off the bench would address one of the Pistons weaknesses experienced this postseason. Coupled with Amir seeing minutes at the 3-spot and Alex Acker or a 1st rounder backing up Chauncey, this may prove to be an initial move towards a rotation overhaul.
Joe D is making you slowly angry? Well he is making me FASTLY angry lately
I gotta broach this topic. Is it just me or does it seem like Joe’s successes as A GM have basically all occurred in his first couple years leading the team? He peaked with the Rasheed deal, there’s no question. But since then what has he really done…
Drafted:
-Ricky Paulding (although who expected much at #54)
-Amir, Maxiell, and Acker…this ‘05 class could end up being huge especially for Amir and Acker being drafted both in the last 5 picks of the draft
-Cheick Samb, Will Blalock…the jury is still out
Traded:
-Eldon Campbell for Carlos Arroyo…great move
-Arroyo and Darko for a stiff and cap space that never really panned out
Say what you want about Darko but he’s still ranked as the 7th best free agent this summer (higher than Jamal Magloire, Earl Boykins, Nocioni, Stackhouse and several other current Piston free agents)
http://www.insidehoops.com/free-agent-rankings.shtml
Signings:
-Dale Davis (remember that cap space we got for trading Eldon…yeah, it went on that guy who averaged 8 minutes a game during his time in Detroit
-Tony Delk - truthfully, I still don’t know what he actually did in Detroit
-Nazr Mohammed - Originally I was excited about this, but since he’s gotten lost on the bench I’ve found it hard to justify him making 6 million a year until 2011.
Now by all means I’m not advocating the idea of getting rid of Dumars, but in professional sports, there’s very few general managers that have lasted the span of having 4 separate head coaches.
Joe has made several incredible improvements in this team. But he’s also made many terrible decisions. Truth be told, I think he’s gotta be forseen as a smart basketball mind with a mediocre track record.
I hate the idea of trading Delfino, but honestly couldn’t we get something more for him than a package of round bacon and an autographed Damon Stoudamire poster?
I agree with “Cassie.” I like Delfino’s defense but I’m not sure he’d ever become the great player people on this site think he’ll be (especially not here in Detroit). Joe always said he’d trade someone who didn’t want to be here. I’m guessing Delfino wanted out.
I’ve thought for a while that the best players available to us at 15 were SGs. None of the PGs excite me. Nick Young is an incredible athlete.
We have heard in recent years about Delfino wanting out, them going back on his statements. Maybe he finally decided he wanted out and Dumars said “ok, no more chances to come back.” The deal obviously wasn’t about getting the picks; Dumars wasn’t in his office plotting and scheming to get extra future 2nd rounders, it was about getting rid of Delfino. We didn’t miss Maurice Evans last year, even though it seemed like a horrible trade at the time, and ended up with a decent center prospect who was picked when? The second round. It’s not a complete disaster I guess… I don’t like to see him leaving for so little, but he didn’t contribute much in our system (not his fault) and we get a little bit of cap space back.
And for those knocking on the trade of Darko/Arroyo for Cato/draft pick, I’d rather have a pick in this year’s draft than both darko and arroyo. That’s evident simply by would teams rather trade for a 1st rounder this year or darko? Yeah, that’s what I thought.
I really got hooked by the potential of Carlos Delfino, but I’m not overly sad about him leaving. Those picks can just be used as bargaining chips, to sprinkle into another trade. Not something significant, but to sweeten a deal. And picks are picks.
It probably won’t be hard to find and plug in a player that gives us 5 and 3 a game. Right, it was spot duty, but still…
We need to clean house: starting with Delfino, then Dice, Hunter, Davis, and Webber. We need to concentrate on getting a pure shooter from the draft or through free agency. The Pistons need to put Amir Johnson in the rotation (possibly start), and get a real backup for Billups (if he re-signs).
I think if Billups asks for a max contract we should seriously consider a sign-and-trade, because his cocky attitude is what Dumars was referring to and won’t be tolerated. He let a rookie in Daniel Gibson school him at his own game. Shame on him!
I think carrying McDyess and Webber for the sake of “winning a championship for them” diverts our attention from playing loose. I say we should dump them and just focus on winning without having pressure to win for someone else.
Also, I think Joe Dumars should seriously rethink his decision to keep Flip Saunders.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Delfino a free agent after ‘07-’08? That wasn’t meant to be cute, I’m really not positive, though I believe it’s the case. I think a lot of our collective love for Delfino is based on flashes of what we’ve seen him do, not what he does on a whole. We don’t have the opportunity to give him the chance to reach his fullest, or he just plain doesn’t have it in him with our squad (or maybe any squad). Hopefully he’ll get a real chance up north (as long as it’s not to our detriment, of course).
Combined with this, are the facts that the guy: didn’t even get 20 minutes a game let alone 10 in the playoffs (ie: the mark of someone who is not even valued as a worthy backup by his team), averages about 5 and 3, apparently wasn’t happy here (I really never knew too much about that), and is clearly due a raise that we weren’t going to be able to afford at the end of his contract. From those angles, it looks to me like a prudent move by Joe. I’m going to miss Delfino, but in tbe interest of winning, I don’t feel so disheartened by the move. This appeases my personal fear that we were dead set on securing a backup PG at #15, as I don’t like any of the PG choices enough to spend #15 on them. If Al Thornton is there, that’s my choice (I also like Tiago Splitter), but that’s for just my opinion, not based on facts or a general consensus. I think the extra $2 million means a lot in the fact that Amir is a restricted free agent (just in case someone throws money at him ) and who knows what some team will offer Chauncey (who may not be worth the market value we’ll have to pay, but we know that we HAVE to pay it). I also think that Joe acted wisely in acquiring both a 2009 and 2010 second rounder. Two chances is much better than one at snagging a diamond in the rough. And there was no way that Toronto would pony up a first rounder for a guy with Delfino’s track record. We didn’t trade with New York.
When looking at just the last 5 drafts (If I went further back the list could go on forever) you can look at picks like: Carlos Boozer, Matt Barnes, Mo Williams, Daniel Gibson, and (we hope he earns his spot in that company) Amir Johnson all having been second round picks. All of those guys except for Boozer were taken outside the top 10 of the second round. There are guys left available at these spots who can be big players, and who knows where the Raptors’ 2009 and 2010 2nd round picks will be. At least Joe got 2 picks so he can get 2 chances to strike gold.
I think this trade is much more a bittersweet move than just a bitter one.
P.S.: Matt, excellent Randolph Childress reference. I remember him coming in to speak as a guest during a basketball camp I went to at Country Day.
Good post, Michael. Everybody would like to get a fistful of 1st rounders for a traded bench player, but it doesn’t happen.
I feel like this trade is as much an admission of the Pistons’ deficiencies as Carlos’. There are teams that can really use what he provides. It’s a good move for him, and I really believe Joe takes that into account when he makes trades. But whatever we do, I can do without Grant Hill or MoPete. It is time, absolutely time, to put young bodies on the floor and give them a chance to succeed.
As far as Joe Dumars making you slowly angry.. I can second that.
He has made alot more bad moves/decisions then good moves/decisions.
His reputation as a great GM is largely built around him getting lucky.
Then Ben Wallace/ Grant Hill was complete luck.. going into the trade Joe Dumars had Chucky Atkins as the better player he was getting between the two.. we got lucky Ben turned into what he did.. and Joe got called a genius.
The Rip Hamilton for Jerry Stackhouse move is probably the best move I can give him credit for that was a good smart GM trade that we get the better end of. Lets not FORGET that Bobby Simmons was involved in that trade and we had him, but Joe released him.. he went on to win NBA most improved player and become a solid SF in the league.
As far as drafting Tayshaun Prince… if it wasn’t for Michael Curry and COMPLETE DESPERATION in the playoffs against the Magic.. then who KNOWS when Tayshaun would have EVER got a chance to play , let alone with the starters at the time. He could have ended up rotting on the bench like alot of people do here that we draft. So there is an ounce of luck involved in Tayshaun.. because he was put in for desperation because of no other options and he turned into what he is now. If Joe Dumars knew he was that good he would have pressured Rick into playing him during the season.. but neither him or Joe knew what was to become of him.
Signing McDyess is one of his better moves that I will give him credit for.
Obviously getting Sheed also.
Getting Clifford Robinson from Phoenix for Jud Beuchler was it? and some other scrubs.
So those are the good moves.
Now can we list the bad moves…
1. Trading Carlos Arroyo and Darko
2. Constantly resigning Ronald Dupree
3. Drafting Rodney White
4. Flip Murray
5. Nazr Mohammed
6. Dale Davis
7. Letting Mehmet Okur go
8. Losing Mike James
9. Mateen Cleaves
10. Rodney White
11. Andreas Gliniadakis
12. Ricky Paulding
13. The coaching firing line of the past
14. Trading Delfino for crap
15. Releasing Bobby Simmons
16. For the past few years NOT GETTING A CAPABLE BACKUP PG for Chauncey!
17. Having Ratko varda on the roster.
18. Horace Jenkins on the roster
19. Letting Mikki Moore get away
20. Pepe Sanchez
21. Danny Manning
22. Derrick Coleman
23. Tony Delk
Im too sick and tired to think of any more but there are alot of them, i am only scratching the surface.
Overall Joe Dumars is an enigma.
Much respect to the Motor City. As a hardcore Raptor Fan I have enjoyed growing up with Mo Pete as the longest-serving Raptor. There were a few years now and then when he was out-of-shape, but last year his sister started cooking for him and he came to camp in excellent condition and was a great starter. This year, he put on a few pounds but I think it was only out of frustration at his severely reduced playing time. Bryan Colangelo has done a ridiculous job shaping this team from very little and Mo Pete’s role slowly took a backseat. I really wanted him to go to Detroit when Webber was signed. He would compliment your team so much and I’m not sure if you are aware, but he is the best defensive player on our team (Save for Chris Bosh). He covers Carter, Kobe, LeBron, etc. and does a damn good if not decent job night in and night out. Also, if you ‘youtube’ Morris Peterson, you’ll see one of the strangest buzzer-beaters in NBA history against the wizards. The trade didn’t go through because our GM wanted too much out of Dumars (I believe it was Maxiell.)
Anyway, I hope Mo ends up on your team and finishes his solid career there. He is just becoming a vet now and shoots somewhere around 37 percent from three-point land for his career.
I watched alot of D-Troit! Basketball in the playoffs and have to say that, although they are clearly talented right up and down the roster, the starters are kind-of sliping away from All-Star status and becoming ‘medium’ stars (if there is such a thing). It’s a weird situation because there is no real reason to trade or move any of them, but after a few years removed from Detroit winning a championship and Ben Wallace in Chicago, Detroit has some serious issues to tackle this offseason.
It sure got off to a bad start by trading Carlos Delfino to us. I think Dumars will pull off another move to justify this, but it sure was a trade for nothing. This guy can play, and at 6′6, he is an upgrade from Juan Dixon (our current back-up guard, listed at 6′2 who gave us match-up problems when T.J Ford (5′11) was our ‘1′.)
Bryan Colangelo went to Europe last season and Signed the two-time Euroleague MVP ANthony Parker for about $4 million a season. The gut ended up being the best glue-guy our team has ever seen. I thing Delfino, though not yet at this level, has shown flashes of excellence at least whenver the Raps play the Pistons and really thin he’ll thrive in Toronto.
It’s funny, Toronto’s locker room is attitude-free which leads to their success, while the Detroit locker-room is full of good ol’ U.S I’m the Best so Outta my Way! (which is awesome!) and they both work.
Sorry to take up so much space. Much respect to Detroit for making the East look at least somewhat respectable for the last few years.
I hope Detroit and Toronto meet in the playoffs.
Peace,
Jurassic Park
We are done with building to take on Shaq. It is time to build for taking on Chicago, and Cleveland. I also appears that the Pistons are not the only team in that position. New Jersey also needs to make some moves or be left behind. Look at Washington who has grown in leaps only to be delayed by Mr. 0 injury. It is time for AJ to step up and play.
Just another thought, do you think Joe is looking at bringing Grant Hill back as a bench player since he decided he wants to play for a contenter?
Like most of you, I like Delfino’s game. He’s had some bad luck here, coming back a little too slowly from knee surgery for LB’s taste, and then competing with Flip’s boy Mo Evans for the same spot in the rotation (IMHO it isn’t even close who is better). I think he will blossom in Toronto. I can’t see him resigning as long as Flip is the coach. I like his game a lot more than Flip’s coaching, but I know I’m preaching to the choir here.
Knowing Joe D., there’s at least another move behind this deal. It feels like Grant Hill may be coming back here. It also feels like Amir is going to play a lot of SF. With Acker likely getting a roster spot and the draft pick likely being a SG or combo G, Delfino looks like he was the odd man out.
Grant Hill has just signed with Toronto for the mid-level exception.
Link:
http:www.espn/nba/breakingnews/88762
I think its a fair move. Because of this, we are almost 100% sure that Joe is fishing for a good potential player, possibly another 6th man, or who knows, someone better due to the cap salary of the team. I totally agree that PG should be a number one priority, in regards to giving Chauncey a back-up. Meaning, not just someone like Murray or Hunter. No offense, but we need someone a little more than them. The second priority this summer should be replacing or/and back-up for the Center position. Again, meaning, not someone like McDyes/Webber, no offense. I think our strongest weapon at this time is our PF, other than Sheed, Amir and Jason should be a threat.
It’s also a possibility that Dumars will include the picks in some sort of package for something else.
wow, this has turned into a hate fest for the general manager. what most of you guys seem to forget is that the only other option for Delfino would be for him to be a free agent and Detroit not get anything for him. I don’t necessarily support just dumping him for 2 2nd rounders but then again, if you can get something, then get something.
1. Trading Carlos Arroyo and Darko - again, do you want to lose Darko as a FA? He was more unhappy than Delfino ever was, he would have left for sure. Plus Arroyo was junk.
2. Constantly resigning Ronald Dupree - so who’s going to be the 12th man on the bench?
3. Drafting Rodney White - ok he could have drafted Joe Johnson, Tony Parker, Richard Jefferson or Zach Randolph. But look at all the other terrible picks in that draft by other teams. It’s not like he traded his #1 pick for Jiri Welsch.
4. Flip Murray - he signed a minimum deal at the end of the off-season. It’s a 2 year deal, and tell me who you want to be in the lineup when Chauncey went down with injury?
5. Nazr Mohammed - what other big man was available? Joel Pryzbilla?
6. Dale Davis - Dale Davis was a solid big man off the bench. He has playoff experience, he’s our 2004 Elden Campbell.
7. Letting Mehmet Okur go - Who would have known the overweight and pouty Okur would have turned into a wannabe Dirk Nowitzki in Utah? Dumars had to let him go otherwise he wouldn’t have been able to re-sign Rasheed.
8. Losing Mike James - I agree this was a mistake, but again, who would have known he was going to rain 3s in Houston and Toronto?
9. Mateen Cleaves - umm, aside from Mo Pete or Jamaal Magloire, who else was available to pick? Marko Jaric, Mamadou N’Diaye? cut him some slack, jesus.
10. Rodney White - umm, you said this already.
11. Andreas Gliniadakis - he was the last pick in the 2003 draft. who really cares
12. Ricky Paulding - HE WAS A 2ND ROUND PICK THE YEAR THEY WON THE TITLE!
13. The coaching firing line of the past - umm, I was happy Larry Brown helped the team win the title, but all the talk about leaving got a little old and it’s disrespectful when you got a winning team and you’re talking about leaving for a “dream job”. since when is a “dream job” coaching a team to less than 20 wins?
14. Trading Delfino for crap - I dont agree with it, better to get something for nothing.
15. Releasing Bobby Simmons - who knew Simmons would turn into what he is?
16. For the past few years NOT GETTING A CAPABLE BACKUP PG for Chauncey! - who else was available that Detroit could sign for the MLE or minimum? They’ve been at or near the cap limit since 02.
17. Having Ratko varda on the roster. - who cares?
18. Horace Jenkins on the roster - you’re nitpicking now
19. Letting Mikki Moore get away - Please, Mikki has had one decent half a season. You couldn’t see his “talent” when he was wearing the teal, orange, red and black.
20. Pepe Sanchez - did he ever really play?
21. Danny Manning - this move was to add a big man on the bench. This move wasn’t made because of Danny Manning’s skills shown during his NCAA title run at Kansas.
22. Derrick Coleman - see Danny Manning only substitute Syracuse for Kansas.
23. Tony Delk - signed in the middle of the season. had a history of scoring in bunches and again, who else was available?
This isn’t NBA Live 2007, I’m not saying any of the above moves were fantastic, but what else can you do? The moves are over and done with now, you can’t hold a RADKO VARDA against the general manager, especially considering he never got any run. You can hold Mehmet against Joe D if Rasheed wasn’t re-signed, but who would you rather have Mehmet or Rasheed? So.. Please, don’t kill yourself over this short list of “mistakes” you think he’s made.
I guess you want Joe Dumars to give his 04 ring back to Bill Davidson and say “you know, I don’t deserve this. I acquired Andreas Gliniadakis and I let go Bobby Simmons who had never done anything in his career up until the point I released him. Oh, and fire me because we let Larry Brown go and because of Rick Carlisle’s inability to make adjustments in a playoff series”.
I agree with Boney. How could we have been in the ECF 5 years in a row if Dumars was such an idiot?
Joe was just talking about the third year of players telling a whole lot about the guy for increase or stagnation, in the reference to Jason Maxiell . . .
Delfino didn’t play in 03-04 . . . 06-07 was his third year.
I trust Joe enough to be able to do a competent job of watching his own guys for 41 easy scouting trips to be able to settle upon the decision to jettison Delfino.
Anyone who remembers Jack McCloskey should know that Trader Jack made some big goofs along the way to building a Pistons club that won its first two championships.
Key colossal error . . . if I’m wrong on the detail, sorry, but I swear McCloskey traded a 1st round pick to the Suns for William Bedford.
Joe’s legacy is still being written, but it’s been mostly great.
When Joe started, this was the roster he started with -
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2000.html
This is what he’s done since that starting point:
http://www.hoopshype.com/general_managers/joe_dumars.htm (running tab of transactions up to trade deadline ‘07)
Anyone in the summer of 2000 wouldn’t have believed what Detroit was about to put together in a short span of time.
Thanks, Boney. The Dumars-hate was getting ridiculous. His successes far outweigh his mistakes. And unlike any other GM out there, he rectifies his mistakes. Other GMs blame the coach when a signing or draft pick don’t work out.
And to weigh in on number 8. Mike James wouldn’t resign because he wanted more playing time.
I agree Boney, Dumars has done a very good job with this team overall, yes he has made a couple mistakes but he did get us a championship! What do you guys think about Kobe? Why not a trade for him? We could offer Rasheed or even a sign and trade with Chauncey? I dont no how the numbers would match up but there must be a way to do it. Do you guys see a way would could pull it off and keep the majority of our team intact?
The team they have now (with Hill instead of Delfino) looks pretty good, but you can’t play nine straight sub-par games and expect to end up in the finals. Maybe coach made some bad decisions, but ultimately the fault lies with the players, certainly not Joe.
Kobe for Rasheed and Rip? RealGM Trade Checker approves, as does the ESPN thingy.
The one thing the Pistons haven’t had on their run is someone that can take over games. Kobe could do that. We’ve got PF talent to take over Rasheed’s spot, and any decline in points from that spot would probably go to Kobe. We’d also probably get an increase in rebounding at that spot.
The Lakers would get a downgrade at SG, but still get an all-star there. That and they seriously upgrade their PF position, either trading Odom or moving him to SF.
I’d do it.
some more thoughts on that: Does anyone know how that would affect our ability to resign Chauncey? Because a Billups/Bryant backcourt would easily be one of the best the league has seen in a while. Both on offense and defense.
And as big of a hit as losing Sheed and Rip would be, imagine this lineup:
Billups, Bryant, Prince, Maxiell/Dyess, random center. (nazr? cwebb? do we keep dale davis and start the bash bros?)
Coming off the bench would be Maxiell/Dyess (whoever doesn’t start), Amir, and Flip Murray (argh)/#15/one of JoeD’s projects.
not that it’s got a snowball’s chance of happening… but it’s kind of exciting.
I like Kobe on the team as long as we dont have to give up the enitre core of the team. I think Rasheeds time in Detroit is over. I love the guy but his downside seems to be much more consistant than his upside. I also want to see what Amir can do with the big boys. Could you even imagine Kobe and Chauncey together? That would be awsome but we still need some low post scoring!
Kobe isn’t going anywhere guys. Get over it. And Garnett isn’t getting traded here either.
I’m glad to see that the wave of hate towards Joe Dumars has subsided. I echo the sentiments of Boney and Darshan that Joe D. is a solid GM far more worthy of praise than scorn for what he’s done on the whole. Outside of R.C. Buford, is there really a more accomplished executive in the game right now?
I accept that arguments could be made for Bryan Colangelo (basically building two basement teams into divison leaders and setting a foundation for possible future contenders by making a ton of great moves), or maybe stretch it and argue for Geoff Petrie (keeping the Kings perennially awesome in the late 90s/early 2000s, until the Maloofs got all uptight and unsatisfied with getting as far as the Kings were going to get in the Lakers’ West and forced Petrie to drive them completely in the ground by being impatient, forcing him to swap Adelman for Eric Musselman? Come on). But, as much as I think those two are great at what they do, their rings combined as GMs in this league: 0. Joe? Well, we all know he’s got one.
Are we so spoiled as fans that even though it’s an admittedly weakened Eastern Conference, five straight ECF appearances doesn’t earn our organization some slack? Bill Davidson has been a visionary as an owner (notice how much Dan Gilbert rips off of us? McLeod? Masonisms?), and Joe has kept us pretty damn competitive almost instantly since coming aboard. How many other NBA franchises sport at least 3 titles? Lakers, Celtics, Bulls and Spurs, that’s it. We even have more playoff wins in the last 4 years than the “Spurs Dynasty” (51-45), or any team in the league for that matter.
Also, can we give up on Kobe? Kobe is an unreal player, but he’s not coming here, and he’s not a Piston style player anyway. I don’t even want Kobe in a Pistons’ jersey on a video game.
P.S.: DBB officially becomes my first myspace friend that I’ve never talked to.
What’s with all the Kobe talk? How much money would trading him cost the Lakers in marketing and ticket sales? They absolutely will NOT trade him for borderline All-Stars!
“P.S.: DBB officially becomes my first myspace friend that I’ve never talked to.”
Sweet!
the thing is, kobe is still asking for/demanding a trade. not sure if buss is actually going to trade him, but if he is, he’s not going to get equal value for him. the same thing happened in the shaq trade: when you trade that big of a superstar, you’re not going to get equal value. you could say the “how much money in marketing and ticket sales” thing for any trade package involving kobe. however, the trade demand is out there.
it’s got next to zero probability… but it’s an interesting proposition, if nothing else.
tedwick I’d love Kobe to be here but theres no way Kobe would be traded here. He doesnt want to be here and we dont have the parts. Plus read this at the fanhouse http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/06/16/cry-kobe-cry-youre-not-going-anywhere/
First off I’m not bashing Joe Dumars when I made my post, I was simply stating how he is not a flawless GM or Miracle Worker like alot of fans make him out to be. He is just a normal good GM… not a savior of all things.
I notice that some of the news reports on this trade say the Pistons received picks in 2009 and 2011, while others say 2009 and 2010. Anyone know the real terms?
hahaha On http://www.hoopshype.com/general_managers/joe_dumars.htm
Oct 31 2005 traded Ronald Dupree to Twolves for future 2nd rd pick
July 18 2006 signed forward Ronald Dupree
think we can trade him away and get another pick? maybe new york? we know he’ll be right back.
Lol, Delfino is a free agent next season. Lets pull a Dupree.
I agree Cassie. Have Hill for a 1 year contract. Delfino gets some major pt and then comes back ready to be a big contributer.
I’m having trouble understanding why people feel so passionately about Joe Dumars’ stewardship of the franchise, one way or the other. Yes he built a one time champion from nothing with a series of shrewd trades that worked out. Yes if ANY team but SA had faced the Pistons in the 2005 finals, this core would have two rings. You also can’t fault him for refusing to destroy the Franchise just to match what Chicago was offering Ben (there seems to be quite a bit of evidence that even with equal money, Ben was leaving). Flip Saunders is a push. Sure he’s a horrible coach when it comes to in game adjustments, but almost EVERY available coach is and there’s no way a veteran team like Detroit would have worked for a college wiz kid coach with no NBA credibility. Even tortured Celtics fans think Danny Ainge is a pretty good GM, and he’d trade resumes with Joe D in a heartbeat. The hate makes zero sense. On the other hand, I don’t think you can simply choose to ignore the SERIOUS issues this team has now and has had for the past two seasons just because they won a title in 2004 with “spare parts” other GM’s didn’t want. Darko was a big mistake for sure, but he was also a mistake many GM’s would have made in that spot. (Also, please don’t give me that “Darko is improving crap”. Watch the Orlando series from this year again and tell me he’s worth a 2nd overall pick.) The real “mistake” was blowing a #2 pick on a big when you were already loaded with guys who’d be occupying the 4 and 5 for the next 3 years. There is no reasonable way anyone can expect a kid taken 2nd overall in the NBA to sit on the bench happily for 3 years and then sign an extension with the team that drafted him after having ZERO opportunity to showcase his game and thus increase his asking price. That’s just not a reasonable move in modern basketball. Chris Bosh would have failed just as badly in that slot. Clearly the move there would be for a SF, SG or PG… someone who’d have at least an opportunity for backup mins. Detroit would have been smarter to take TJ Ford than Darko, and that’s saying BUNDLES. It’s also worth noting that the only player Joe D has drafted that IS worthy of significant mins is a streak shooting SF with a freakishly long body who plays killer man defense. It was a coupe, but it’s not like he’s Rodney Buford. I think it’s quite telling that I’m more inclined to believe that Amir Johnson and Chuck Saamb will be flameouts than steals based on the past track record of our “steals”. You can cry “they were all late draft picks” but I’ll be forced to counter “and all they ever turn into are more late draft picks, great GM’s hit more than that” every time. I also can’t really forgive Dumars for Nazir no matter how much anyone cries “who else was available?” Throwing good money after 7 foot stiffs is ridiculous, I’m QUITE sure Cezary Trebanski woulda sat on our bench and handed Dyees towels during team timeouts for a lot less money AND years. The parallels to Zeke’s acquisition of Jerome James are stunning and NOBODY forgives Isiah for that move. Finally if you’re going to give him credit for rebuilding Detroit’s team identity in the image of the city around it and the team’s past glories… why is NOBODY willing to blame Joe for that same team’s apparent LOSS of identity just two years later? Why can’t I question the consistent trading for and drafting of foreign players with under-developed defensive games when the team itself had been built opposite? Am I supposed to forget what watching Carlos Arroyo try to cover someone was like? Why can’t I be upset that we failed to acquire youth and toughness when we had many opportunities to do so? Why can’t I say “Joe, I saw LBJ rip our heart out in the 2nd round last year and we got lucky to survive… your answer was Chris Webber…”? Why can’t I ask “who’s job it was to foul LBJ really hard in game 5 and why didn’t they”? I’m sorry but even as a life long Piston’s fan I can’t agree with either side. Joe Dumars is an average NBA GM.
For those who want to criticize Dumars, let’s look at the other successful teams in this league, and how they got where they were.
Cavaliers - Were really terrible the year LeBron James declared for the draft. Brilliant. Complete incompetence thereafter.
Spurs - David Robinson got injured the year Tim Duncan declared for the draft. Brilliant. Strong international scouting thereafter.
Rockets - Were a terrible team the year Yao Ming declared for the draft. Brilliant.
Mavericks - Threw 8 figure contracts at everyone not named Steve Nash. Brilliant.
Heat - Drafted Wade in a decision that was made for them. Would have drafted Darko in a heartbeat, were he on the board. They traded for Shaq, which was obviously good, and followed up by surrounding him with the NBA’s version of the AARP.
Bulls - Followed some decent drafting (and fleecing of the Knicks) by overpaying for Ben Wallance, giving away a play with largely similar skills who is a decade younger, and passing on Pau Gasol
Which leaves you with the Suns, Raptors, Pistons and Jazz, all of whom (along with the Spurs) have gotten where they are with smart management.
A lot of great point in Dumars’ favor - the fact that we’ve been in the Eastern Conference finals 5 years running and that I actually LIKE our is all I need to see to see. It’s a great franchise, for fans and players alike, and you have to give Dumars a lot of credit for guiding it.
What was this about? Delfino? Wasn’t he that Albanian guy?
I think that as with Darko, Carlos holds little love for the Pistons franchise. Players want to play, and to be at that level you have to believe that you are worthy of PT. The fact that the Pistons haven’t given it to him meant that Delfino wouldn’t re-sign were they to keep him. Carlos has those massive Argentinian sponsorship deals to think about too…
Really though, the deal is about the Pistons and I guess Dumars. They are one of the teams who have people sitting at the far end of their bench who would be a lot closer to the coach on another team. The gap between NBA Champs and early-exit chumps isn’t that great and requires constant re-examination and tinkering.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again — I’d love to see Grant Hill come back. Sure, he didn’t leave on the best of terms, but that was ages ago and he’s in the twilight of his career. He can give us more production than Delfino and is just an all-around cool guy. I think Delfino can average 12 and 5 with the Raptors though, so good on him.
I’d rather have mo pete than hill because he’s a better three point shooter and probly a better defender given hill’s reduced mobility. but that decision is inconsequential if they don’t get a center.
I hate to see Carlos leave, but I’m happy the destination is Toronto where I can see him play. Since we have an open guard spot on the rotation, how about we take a good look at Theo Papaloukas. He’s been considered the best “all round” player currently not in the NBA. Last year that player was Anthony Parker, and he’s done wonders in Toronto.
“Jun 15 - The Pistons have a strong presence in Europe and they’ve been one of the NBAs elite teams for the past five years, so it’s not surprising Theo Papaloukas — generally considered the best player in the world not in the NBA — would have interest in them. At 6-foot-7, Papaloukas can play both guard spots and is regarded as a terrifically heady player who isn’t great at anything in particular. ESPN”
Thanks for the free guy.
you know, after reading how the Bucks are trying to put up cash to get Billups, I don’t think I’d be angry to see all these guys run out of town and rebuild while the other teams in the division overpay for the Pistons’ leftovers..
Don’t get me wrong, I want to see the Pistons win, but why bend over backwards for guys that run for max deals when Gilbert Arenas is going to be a FA next season and has ties to Motown? Look at the Patriots in the NFL, they have remained strong with solid front office while being able to remain at the top after guys want to hold out and or sign with other teams.
actually, I was reading that Dallas may be interested in Billups.. why not pull a deal:
Jason Terry
Josh Howard
multiple picks
forr
Billups
Then you would have a combo guard in Terry who you could then either keep, or trade Hamilton for a PG or a post presence? You can put Howard at the SG, and then if/when you want to go small you can run out Sheed, Prince, Howard, Terry, PG.
It’s wishful thinking but:
C - Empty (Nazr)
PF - Sheed, Max, Dyess
SF - Prince, Howard, Dupree
SG - Hamilton, Terry, Howard, Murray
PG - Terry, Hunter, Murray
Jurassic Park…. Why did you say that Grant Hill signed with the Raptors? If you had any credibility or whatever, you lost it with that post.
Boney, why in the hell would Dallas give up Terry, Josh Howard and picks for Billups? Would you pay $50k for a Honda when the cars are worth $20-25k? Hell no you wouldn’t. So please stop throwing out these asinine trades. I realize this is just a fan blog and just for fun, but seriously dude. Folks please stop wasting other blogers time reading trade suggestions that you wouldn’t do in a million years if you were the other team. We all want to see the Bad Boys back on top, but please suggest something that makes half rational sense. You never know, Joe D. may make a mistake and read it and take heed
Yeah right!
Kobe? Gentlemen, we would have to give up the core and the next 25 years of draft picks to get Kobe. If I were the Lakers I wouldn’t even answer Joe’s call unless I thought he was suggesting Chauncey, Rip, 15th pick and a Cadillac fresh off the assembly line. Sheed & Rip for Kobe? Seriously my Piston loving brothers, if you were the Lakers would you do that? Hell no you wouldn’t. Don’t suggest trades you would never do if you were the other team. Trades have to make some sense both ways. I think most rational blogers would agree!!! I do agree, I would love to have Mr. Bean Bryant though.
bye carlos.
i will miss you a bit but its time to try another route.
its the best move for you and with toronto you are part of something fresh. the pistons are trying to stay relevant so they have to free up money and delfino didnt seem too happy in the d. his defense and atheletic ability can only get better. all the best delfino.
i wonder what will happen next, joe d is playing his cards tight now. the draft will really be a determining direction for the red, white and blue.
Ok, so I like the Billups to Dallas deal, but we should get Dirk and Howard plus picks, a first rounder this year and a first rounder next year, for Billups. Maybe if we throw in Webber and Nazr, it’ll sweeten the deal up, but I’d hate to give up two athletic players in their prime for stiffs like howard and dirk. Or even, add in the lakers to the deal, and swing a 3 team swap where we send Rip to the Lakers and get Kobe, and dallas sends terry, harris, and stackhouse to the Lakers too. That would give us Howard, Kobe, Prince, Sheed, and Dirk. Maybe we could even turn Amir into a PG, the next Magic!!
Before anyone soils themselves in outrage of such a stupid trade, no i wouldn’t do it if I was the other team, it was a joke. Chill out.
Yeah, ignore Jurrasic (sic) Park’s rumour regarding Grant Hill signing with the Raps. Nothing can happen until July 1, anyway.
And Glenn, your second post really wasn’t necessary. If someone took your first post (or Boney’s original trade suggestion) seriously, they should be banned from all basketball forums everywhere for a year.*
*If only there was a way to actually enforce this.
as these trade talks get further out of hand–I love josh howard like a son, but I wouldnt want jason terry running my shit
I think it’s pretty obvious we have to resign Billups even though there is almost NO way he’s worth the money he’s going to command. A max deal is a realistic possibility. Additionally considering the absolute dearth of solid PG’s in the NBA today I highly doubt ANY deal involving moving him after signing would bring back an acceptable PG. Why would you trade for a “very good but not great” PG if you had ALREADY had a “very good but not great” PG? The moment Joe D said “There’s no fire sale” all of this became unavoidable. That’s not to say this is a great move for the team, it is merely the only acceptable move that doesn’t involve starting over and waiting 3 years minimum to contend again. Better drafting would have made letting Billups go now more realistic, but that is simply not the situation at hand. Between Lindsey Hunter eating up any “development” time a young PG would have had and Arroyo’s failure to be “the next guy” at that position, we’re completely out of options. In conclusion I think it’s safe to disregard ANY trade rumor involving Billups. I may not think Joe D is an excellent GM (okay would be better imho), but he isn’t Billy Knight and the Pistons aren’t the Hawks.
- loosely translated from dolphin- Fare thee well two legs.
damn that took out the part that said
squeaksqueaksqueak squeak squeak
yeah, I was a little crazy earlier when I suggested a Howard and Terry for Billups deal… I honestly only threw that out there because the salaries kinda/sorta would work. Of course, it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously… but it would be nice if Howard was a Piston (would take some of the sting away from the Darko debacle)
Don’t get me wrong Boney, I would love Josh Howard as well. I was just giving you a hard time about your trade suggestion :-). But if we’re just having fun and not looking at serious trade possibilities then hell: Sheed for Garnett plus bench trash to match up salaries, Rip for Kobe plus bench trash to match up salaries and Tay for Rashard Lewis. Maybe I’m missing the boat and taking this blog seriously and looking for real trade possiblities. Hell, while we’re at it, everyone on our bench for Paul Gasol…………… Naaah, I can’t live this far out in fantasy land. Back to the real trade possiblities.
i go away for a wedding for the weekend and THIS is what happens? thanks, joe.
For those that feel that the Pistons could have gotten more for Delfino….
I’m sorry…
It’s Bryan “Muffuggin” Colangelo you’re dealing with here..
I swear when GM’s tell him that he’s not allowed to fleece them out of players he just says, real casual, laidback…did you know that I know where your wife and kids live. They get the message REAL quick.
hey,
i just think that Carlos Delfino is an amazing basketball player but still has a lot of skills to work on. I think that european basketball learn way more fundamentals and work on their skills more than canadians and americans do. Andrea Bargnani, Carlos Delfino and Jose Calderon know how to play ball.
E.V
PS: i was just wondering if anyone knows what Carlos’ tattoo is on his back/lat.