Al Harrington will NOT finish this season as a Warrior. He wasn’t a good enough fit and Don Nelson isn’t interested, he’s walking trade bait. If Mullin can get someone to give value for that, great, but again when BILL SIMMONS knows your guy is a stone…. I’m pretty sure every NBA GM who HASN’T played for the Celtics does too. It doesn’t MATTER how talented a player is when GM’s smell blood in the water (see Allen Iverson).

Now really, bye.

*sticks hands in pockets while rocking on balls of feet, rolling eyes around aimlessly and whistling*

Otherwise, I have no serious beef with what you’re saying, but I would suggest that Rasheed’s real role in the locker room is consistently injecting levity (see: Rasheed before Game 5 against the Bucks in ‘05-’06, a link for the hilariousness: http://www.need4sheed.com/2006/05/bye-bye-bucks-piston-take-series-4-1.html), because we really have enough level-headed veteran leadership to mentor the young guns and Sheed is anything but level-headed.

Jon, the reason for the backlash on your trade proposal is that as Pistons fans we don’t see ourselves in a position as needing a trade. Unless we’re going to be offered AI for Andre Miller (which I think Jon, you’d agree this is not), we’re going to stand pat. We don’t want to give up something we hold dear for Al Harrington because our confidence in our current squad (as you address in point five of your most recent post) puts us in a position of relative security as to not make moves out of desperation or moves that are patently high risk (see: Danny Ainge’s moves this offseason) in an attempt to rescue a sinking (sunken?) ship. You said yourself if our confidence is high (mine sure is), it calls for your submission. I suppose I’m calling for you to acquiesce.

When the Pistons acquried Rasheed Wallace (and Mike James for the rest of that season), they did it for the price of Bob Sura, Zeljko Rebraca, Chucky Atkins and Lindsey Hunter (who the Pistons seemed to know was going to be immediately released by Boston and end up floating back to Detroit). That’s essentially one very solid rotation player (backing up a very successful and beloved starter) and a bunch of scrubs for a guy who now leads the team in rebounds and blocks (ie: mad important) and for that stretch run, a guy who provided suffocating defense and an ability to control games in place of Chauncey. Giving up a guy who today leads the team in blocks and boards (Sheed) for Al Harrington and your scrub add-on (Patrick O’Bryant is a classically labeled “huge upside” bust who should’ve stayed in school) would essentially be working as a mirror image of the shrewd trade the Pistons made originally. Joe Dumars only makes lopsided trades when they’re in his favor, not disfavor. That’s what this would be.

I can only speak for myself (though I’m sure there are like-minded people out there) when I say I would be (barring injuries) very disappointed at anything short of a Finals appearance this year for the Stones, and because of that I’d see no reason to go after a guy who doesn’t really bring something the Pistons are absolutely clamoring so much for that they’d part with an integral member of the current squad. Power forward is one position that this team doesn’t have a shortage of, and no real reason to disrupt the great chemistry Sheed has with this team.

I think what people on this board are trying to convey is that if Al Harrington came to this team in a fashion comparable to Jarvis Hayes (reasonably priced free agent contract), the Pistons would be happy to welcome him. He is a good player. No one here should dispute that. He’s a very legitimate NBA starter, but $9 mil/year is a big commitment and in your scenario it would also come with a huge dent to team chemistry by the Pistons parting ways with Sheed.

If you’re a successful franchise and you’re not going to get a substantially better player (ie: Denver getting Iverson for Andre Miller), trades that are built on a foundation of two big names being exchanged (the value disparity is clearly not as large in your scenario as it was there) make no sense.

Posters on the board here (myself included) have a history of developing frustration with drawn-out discussions of extremely unlikely hypotheticals, especially those that we deem unfavorable to the adavancement of our squad.

I’m not trying to be a hater Jon, but you’re barking up the wrong tree here at DBB. If you want to give us contract-extended Biendrins and Pietrus (at about 11 and 9 per respectively for about 4-5 years each) for Sheed, Nazr, and Flip Murray with the Pistons making a contingent move using the opened up roster spot on Chris Webber at league minimum, I’d listen. This of course will not happen, but I think that’d be a trade we’d be more receptive to on this board. But I repeat, not usually fans of hypotheticals here, and what I just presented is just not a real scenario (even though I made the salaries match and everything!

One more thing to consider. You pointed out that his statistics are declining. Could this not be because he is required to carry more of the defensive load in the post with Ben gone? Which requires him to exert more energy on the defensive end? Let’s remember something. Sheed’s game is not based on great athleticism like Webber’s. And he is not as motivated during the regular season. Which means there are many potential explanations for those declining numbers and he should retain his level of capability well into his thirties. Especially with the contribution of Amir Johnson and Jason Maxiell.

Honestly, If I were the the GM for the Pistons I would stand pat because on paper they really look formidable for years to come with Amir Johnson, Jason Maxiell, Rodney Stuckey and maybe even Cheik Samb. Not to mention Aaron Aflallo who I think has the DNA to be a solid NBA contributor.

Rasheed will need to be in a Pistons uniform to mentor the youngsters and push them to be better in practice and this is going to prepare them to contribute in the near and distant future. Moving him would be a big mistake. Rasheed has Pistons DNA and his contribution would be missed.

How’s the weather in Oakland these days? Life treating you well? Any chance Baron is gonna shave that stupid beard soon?

Wishing you all the best, love Pistonsgirl

2. You call Rasheed an asset, yet concede that in his previous situation, he wasn’t. This is where I’m saying your reasoning is flawed. You say Harrington should come cheap and therefore he’s not valuable; yet Rasheed came cheap and he is valuable. Value is relative and fluid.

3. You can’t possibly argue that Rasheed is the same asset he was when he was first acquired. You’ve already conceded he’s declined offensively. My stance has always been that the Pistons aren’t as good anymore with him because he’s simply not as good as he used to be. Therefore a change of direction lies in the Pistons future, and that change of direction is one that does includes moving away from Rasheed.

4. I’m never attached any probability to this trade happening; my intent was to discuss whether it *should*. I don’t claim to be an insider, I don’t claim to work for either front office. I’m merely filling time by exploring an idea. Throughout this discussion you’ve consistently fallen back on your personal feelings and opinions, observations (which have been shown to be inaccurate and concededly limited). You have a right to believe whatever you want, but an unwillingness to step away from them doesn’t really aid in what was supposed to be a neutral discussion.

5. I guess it boils down to this:
- How far will the Pistons go the next two years with Rasheed Wallace?
- What packages could the Pistons get for Rasheed Wallace?

If the answer to the first one is “the finals” or the answer to the second one is “better than what you offered”, then I’m happy to submit. But I haven’t heard that from you.

I’m now no longer sure that I’m the Ogre in this discussion and your very first point has lead me to question your motives. I mean it you actually had me there last night which is why I bothered to explain it politely to you. Now I realize I was right all along. Your a fan who’s trying to convince the world this might happen so that you can believe in it too. Good luck with Brandon Wright.

Have a great summer trying to talk Joe into this deal but I shan’t be discussing Al Harrington for Sheed again.

Joe Dumars traded for Rasheed Wallace (paying nothing, getting him “for free”). Hrm. Perhaps Rasheed Wallace might be properly classified as a “liability dump” from his former team (the Hawks, technically, not Portland).

I sense a disconnect ^there^.

If Al Harrington a liability dump, then it strikes me that’s the best time for Al Harrington to get him. The price for a player is low when he’s considered a liability; the price is high when he’s considered an asset. That’s just the way a market works.

Were Rasheed an incredible, flawless asset, would Joe Dumars gotten him for “nothing”?

Certainly, there are stupid GM’s (don’t get me started on Orlando, or Indy, or New York…), but I find your reasoning here pretty flawed. If you don’t want Al Harrington for Rasheed Wallace, it should be because:
1. You believe the Pistons will go farther now with ‘Sheed, and that means another Finals shot.
2. There is a better deal for Rasheed Wallace.

I would buy into either argument. I can’t buy into yours.

I certainly don’t claim do know about Detroit, but I worked in Oakland, I go to watch games there. You need attitude and fire to play there, or you’ll suffer the wrath of the *cough* best fans in the NBA *cough*. Ask Dunleavy, Jr. how Warrior followers treat passionless guys.

So you are right, Harrington isn’t garbage. Though being fair I probably saw ALOT more of him in Indiana (Remix Edition) than you did and WOW was he freaking awful but sure I’ll give you that pretty much EVERY Pacer (including Management, you DESTROYED them in that trade) sucked. That having been said I saw a grand total of 5 Warriors games last year and yes every single one of them was vs Dallas. (Last game of the regular season or second last, games 3-6 of the first round…game one wasn’t even showing and I knew the refs would send Dallas to the line 300 times on their home court down by one so I didn’t even bother watching game 2) I’m sure you saw more good Al Harrington games than I did, he certainly wasn’t motivated in Indiana… or Atlanta even though 20 good games could have turned him into God in that city they’re so desperate for a basketball star. Plus throw in that he was by far the most experienced starting player on the team and yet was NEVER able to show the Hawk any leadership… even though it was the single best opportunity of his career thus far to do so. That’s the problem Jon, right there in a nutshell.

He isn’t a winner, he isn’t a leader, he isn’t a character guy, he doesn’t have Sheed’s heart and I’m not in love with everything he brings to the basketball court. Also he looks significantly worse in a headband than our man Sheed does.

I don’t want Al Harrington because Al Harrington isn’t a Piston, he isn’t the right type of person to BE a Piston (believe me if you don’t know this team you don’t know what I mean but that isn’t just fan talk… there’s history here and an image to live up to. You wear that uniform and you represent a city that has a giant statue of a fist downtown, we don’t care if you like us or our attitude, that’s Detroit and if you can’t live up to that attitude your stay in D-Town will not be remembered fondly, no matter HOW great you are. Ask Sergei Federov how that goes). He isn’t Rasheed Wallace.

I’m sure you understand something of what I mean. I read Golden State of Mind…. I know what “Un-Stopable BABYEEE!!!!” means… I doubt you’d buy a deal to trade Baron Davis either.

Finally I’ll remind you once again, good GM’s from successful NBA teams don’t pay for things other teams will eventually have to give away. I meant what I said when I called Al Harrington a liability dump. It’s obvious the Warriors don’t actually want him anymore so why would trading Sheed even be in the picture? Danny Boy makes those kind of moves…Joe Dumars gives Portland nothing for Rasheed Wallace. It’s just not the kind of trade the Pistons make…

Finally re: Beidrins, thanks for the info on the height I didn’t know he was that tall. Either way I understand why he’s untradable.. he was very good in the games I saw vs Dallas and he’s obviously a perfect fit for what GS is doing with Nelson…. though no lie’s its the worst kept secret in the world that you guys would have paid the house for Eazy-Yi because he might actually be the ideal big for that system.

I’d wish the Warriors luck out of courtesy but no offence Jon… there’s only one Larry O’Brien Trophy to go around and I’d really prefer that makes it way to D-Town this year….my love for Oakland aside.

Had Rasheed Wallace and the Pistons never won a championship, what would his legacy be? Ferocious player, certainly; talented, undoubtedly; but “realized his full potential? maybe not. So perhaps it’s time to ease off on Al.

I think it’s pretty unfair to use the delay in bringing Al to Indiana from Atlanta; Atlanta had some control in the sign-and-trade, Indy was over the cap, GS was over the cap. Free agent signings aren’t easy in the CBA era, and let’s be honest, how many players take less money? Why doesn’t Chauncy Billups play for the veteran minimum so the Pistons have more money to spend elsewhere?

2. The GS-IND trade was made for Harrington. Mullin had played with him before in Indy and there was that connection; he tried to sign him that offseason. The end result was that Jackson turned out to be extremely useful. Bear in mind there were only so many combinations that worked due to the size of contracts involved. There were many factors involved, like the length and size of Murphy/Dunleavy’s contract, Diogu’s inability to learn the Nelson offense, Murphy’s rebounding decline, Jackson’s relationship with Indiana, Carlisle’s offensive philosophy…you’re really ignoring quite a bit of what went into the deal to use it as a means of disparaging Harrington.

3. Harrington wasn’t quite as good as we’d hoped- but he was still a huge upgrade. If you watched a number of Warriors games, you’ll notice the defensive scheme works only with long, quick players. Murphy was incapable of rotating, which is why Nelson went with the undersized Barnes and Pietrus for long stretches, and why Harrington helped make our defense effective late in the season and into the playoffs.

The reason I want ‘Sheed is not because Harrington “sucks”, but because Sheed is an even better fit defensively. Age and cost are against him, but I want the Warriors to:
- shave off a year of Harrington’s contract
- get another guy to defend the rim
- offensively, I don’t think you can ignore Al’s advantage in the shooting department, unless you think Rasheed’s FG% will suddenly trend upwards

Bear in mind also Harrington was learning a new scheme on both offense and defense, going from Carlisle to Nelson is about as drastic a shift as you can make. Conditioning was also an issue, was the tempo of the Warriors can wear on someone that wasn’t in training camp preparing for it (Nelson asked all of his players to lose weight and boost stamina instead of going for mass and raw strength; Murphy’s rebounding decline can be in part traced to this).

3. You also need to look at the Warriors team, and where they stood. We were a perennial lottery team; Harrington was one upgrade that took us from loser to playoff team. Now, we’re lookign for pieces that will let us challenge the best teams in the West; it’s not really an insult to Al to say we’d like a better shot at stopping Duncan, Amare, and Boozer.

4. “Short bigs” is subjective…but hopefully Al won’t be playing the 5. It’s possible Croshere, POB, or Perovic show enough to be the backup C. In any case, Don Nelson’s positions are pretty fluid, and we switch a lot on defense. Speed matters more than height; heck, wingspan matters more than height. And Andris Biedrins is 6′11…is that short these days? There are lots of guys 7 ft that can’t play; why is height such an overriding factor in who you “like”. Ben Wallace was 6′9 and played the 5 for the Pistons, he was effective because of his quickness and length. As for “nasty”…I guess that’s subjective as well, but you should see some Euroleague games with the Latvian team.

At this point I suppose there’s nothing I could say or show you that would change your opinion, but I wanted to get that out there for the sake of anyone else reading and following the exchange.

Good luck to the Pistons this season.

Sorry for the double post but I have no desire to explain later that yes I know the guy isn’t a short PF.

On a side note I’d personally REALLY like the damn season to start so we can argue about something other than hypothetical trades and where Wang Zhi Zhi is going to sign. Normally I’d just ignore this part of the offseason entirely and watch college football but Michigan is now dead to me until they fire Lloyd Carr (and for clarity that’s the first time I’ve ever said that about any Michigan football coach, ever).

Look if ya like the guy so much why don’t you keep him? Seriously I’m not getting the attitude here. Nor am I backpedalling… here in english I will say again “AL HARRINGTON IS COMPLETE GARBAGE”… infact I’ll also add “Players like him are a dime a dozen except MOST of them don’t come with star player attitude” and I’ll even go so far as to state “I dislike short PF tremendously unless they’re buck nasty (see Maxy and your own Beatrice (( and that is showing the Warriors animosity, not agreeing with your hypothetical IN MY OPINION one sided rip off is just being real))) I REALLY don’t think he’s all that good and his recent track record ISN’T very good at all recently. The fact is he doesn’t work into the Warriors long term plans and you know it so your busy here trying to talk yourself into thinking Al Harrington could ever go for Sheed Wallace. It’s not happening and it’s definately not fair. We can agree to disagree but I’m STILL reserving the right to think your mental for saying Sheed for Harrington is somehow a good deal.

On a more personal note very little of what I said was particularly snarly up until this point. Accusing me of a “anti-Warriors” bias is pretty much insane. I didn’t bash Matt Barnes either, I just pointed him out as someone else from a playoff team I wouldn’t consider trading for because he isn’t special, I can get another player just like him without trading. Here, would you trade for Flip Murray? HE WAS AN EASTERN CONFERENCE FINALIST LAST YEAR YOU KNOW? He like may have played some mins even. Seriously you seem like a smart guy but it’s really not fair to imply I have a personal issue with anyone or anything after ASKING for my opinion on a HYPOTHETICAL trade. My opinion is you’re dreaming about dumping two liabilities for an asset at the cost of a late teens pick (Note I just picked your stupid team to MAKE THE PLAYOFFS AGAIN JACK so how the f*&k is that anti-warriors bias?) in exchange for two shots in the dark (mid-late second rounders)….Nothing about that deal appeals to me and imho (which again cheif you FREAKING ASKED FOR REMEMBER?) shouldn’t appeal to Joe. Frankly I doubt this deal would appeal to the computer on NBA Live and it’s worse at this than Larry Bird.

Before you get heavy on me PLEASE make sure I’ve actually done something next time. I assure you if you read my previous posts here it won’t take long for you to find a LEGITIMATE reason to be pissed off at something I’ve typed. Like for starters I think Baron Davis should shave that hideous beard.

Matt, my bad I really did think that was last year RE: Sheed and the All Star game….. but honestly I can’t see how aquiring Al Harrington is a good idea. As for the for free comment, I was pretty sure that before it took an EXCRUCIATINGLY long time to get him to Indiana, Mr Harrington implied that he’d be willing to play for a contender for cheaper. I suppose “For Free” is a bit carried away but you could tell from the MOMENT they signed him that just wasn’t going to work out in Indiana… the guy wasn’t even CLOSE to an equal replacement to Artest or even Limpy Stojakoi’mnotspellingthat. Sure though, overboard on “for free” the first time…. the second? Mike Dunleavy was a liability dump. He makes the 12 year old girl scared face during NBA games, he has zero heart and believe me I read Golden State of Mind MORE than enough to know the man is freaking WORTHLESS in the clutch. Oh yeah he can’t play defence either. He won’t have an NBA job after this contract expires imo. Definately a liability dump. Troy Murphy has some game i’ll agree, you know when his foot is working and all. HOWEVER he had absolutely no value to the Warriors at that point, was VERY expensive, was highly unlikely to turn into a Nellyball player and thus was.. yeah, a liability dump. Basically the warriors gave up two players they DIDN’T WANT ON THE TEAM to get either Al Harrington (who continually found himself on the bench early ((see aformentioned Simmons article from GS/Dallas series and like… the games)) and didn’t produce anything special) or Stephen Jackson (who aside from Baron is the GS Warrior singularly most responsible for proving Dirk has no heart in front of an entire nature)… which player do YOU think Nelly was trying to aquire.. I mean, for really? I don’t think the Pistons are the kind of team to trade for something that can be had for so little.

I mean it’s cool, I get the picture that you still think he has something left to show…..I guess I just don’t and at this point I honestly don’t feel looking at the guy’s career ANYONE can say he’s lived up to his potential. Imho even if and when the time to aquire backups for Amir/Max does occur I really don’t get why that’d be the kind of guy to target…It’s not the same as Chauncey and Rip who were never put in positions to shine (though frankly Rip shined anyways)….as has been mentioned quite frequently Al Harrington was on the best team in the east for a couple of seasons and again I can’t stress this enough WASN’T that good and DIDN’T produce a championship. And the Dyess comparison isn’t even in the same ballpark. Injuries haven’t robbed Al Harrington of his body movement and forced him to relearn the entire game of basketball. Taking a shot on Dyees was almost like taking a shot on the Detroit training staff and it’s hardly a secret that they’re the best in the buisness.

Either way I’m terribly sorry to have pissed Jon off (prior anyways, I actually mean it this time) but really this trade isn’t happening for two reasons:

1) Detroit isn’t moving Sheed this season

2) Unless absolutely forced to Golden State is not keeping Al Harrington after this season and infact I’ll be suprised if he makes it past the deadline. He’s not the player they need at that spot or at least wasn’t when we last saw him. If he should suddenly flourish into the kinda PF perfect for Nellyball (not that he isn’t on paper, but that really never worked out did it? Again see Dallas/GS series and Harrington’s mins/when he came out) then they wouldn’t trade him because he’s locked up for next year thus also negating the Sheed for Harrington trade potential.

You can throw 3) Al Harrington isn’t any good in the “I think you’re wrong” pile if it makes ya feel better it doesn’t change much about #’s 1&2.

Matt Barnes is not special because he went to the playoffs; he’s special because he was a journeyman who made himself better and found a good fitting-system then stepped up while in the playoffs. No one is saying he’s great, but bashing the guy out of no where is just uncalled for.

As Matt pointed out, the Indy-GS deal was done because:
1) Stephen Jackson had worn out his welcome
2) Rick Carlisle’s rigid offensive system could not utilize Jermaine and Al together
3) Murphy and Dunleavy were horribly overpaid
4) Murphy and Dunleavy were the worst possible forwards for a Don Nelson system

I wouldn’t characterize anything I’ve said as hype. If anything, you’re overbroad language describing the Warriors and Harrington seem to show a personal bias against the team and the player. I’ve got nothing against the Pistons, I enjoyed watching them dismantle the Lakers a couple years ago, no one’s trying to rip anyone off. It’s just hard to have a discussion when another’s primary interest is venting emotion rather than useful analysis.

I’ve sung the praises of Sheed defensively, but really, how much of an asset is he? What’s the market for him? No young team would take him for his age and cost; only a certain few “contending” teams have front offices willing to gamble on his volatility.

So I guess the question is, how far do you think you can get with him, and how much do you think you can get for him? IMHO, no team would give up a blue chip talent for him; an expiring + picks is possible, but I would have to look at specific teams to see if that even had that available. Such a package might be “value”, but it would also change the direction of the team toward “rebuilding”, which won’t happen with Billups re-signed for big money.

A more “rebuild-on-the fly” while collecting assets seems to be the best compromise.

Sheed will forever be one of my favorite personalities in the L, but getting value for someone who may be in serious decline would be nice. I think, however, that his decline may be linked to certain conflicts that he has with certain coaches. How many of use have had the exoerience of not working as hard when we don’t agree with our boss. I think it speaks to his professionalism and passion that he hasn’t stated the obvious: Flip is not the right coach for this team.

It’s a veteran team that has leadership and talent on the court, but far less leadership and talent on the bench. Not many teams have as many weapons, offensively and defensively, as Detroit. Yet we have not played quality ball in the ECF for the last two years. When the offense fizzles, it’s because players are tired, or coaches aren’t able to get players to execute. Detroit’s discipline and identity have been cast aside in the ECF two years in a row. It’s a coaches’ job to make the players focus on the things that brought them success. And players taking shortcuts comes from a lack of focus, or WAY TOO MANY MINUTES during the season. Not just the fatigue of the minutes, but the stress and effort of playing to win every single game, for the dubious honor of a #1 seed.

I’d rather see a team come together over the stretch than coast downhill with a top spot. If you haven’t needed to be hungry in the three weeks before the playoffs, if you feel like you already accomplished something, then what else do you need to prove?

Sheed is too honest and smart and experienced to listen to someone who can’t teach him and won’t discipline him. Watching him after he had fouled out against New Jersey in Game 5 of the ‘04 season, I have never been more impressed with his commitment to winning. Point him in the right direction, and who knows how many years he’s got left.

Ramble, ramble, ramble, Flip, Flip, Flip, sorry for the unfocused post…

Also, the Pistons have been linked to Harrington (albeit through rumors which may or may not be based in anything) before, not that it matters much in a hypothetical blog discussion …

But I don’t think it’s fair to say Detroit had a chance to get him for free and passed twice — he signed a four-year, $35.3 million deal last summer. The Pistons *never* had that kind of money to play with — they could have gone over the cap to re-sign Ben, but when he left all they had remaining was the midlevel for Nazr and the biannual for Flip Murray.

Plus, the Pacers didn’t simply give him away in the trade — Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy are solid (if overpaid) NBA players. I’m not trying to start a Detroit chapter of the Al Harrington Fan Club, but the guy definitely has talent and upside. If the Pistons passed on guys who bounced around the league before finding a niche they’d never have gotten guys like Chauncey, Ben, McDyess …