Most of Detroit’s core players are locked up to long-term deals: Chauncey Billups and Tayshaun Prince are signed through 2011 while Rip Hamilton is signed through 2010. That’s a good thing, as all three are vital to the team’s continued success. Rasheed Wallace, on the other hand, is only signed through 2009, which means that next summer he’ll be an attractive trade target for a lot of teams looking to acquire salary cap relief via an expiring contract. And considering he’s set to make $13.6 million in 2008-09, he could provide a team a lot of relief. Might the Pistons be willing to trade him?
It’s certainly possible. While Wallace is still an important member of team right now, he’s also one of the most replaceable, at least in terms of having adequate backups waiting in reserve. For example, if Billups went down, there would be a lot of questions as to whether rookie Rodney Stuckey or Flip Murray could handle the starting point guard duties. But if Wallace were lost for any amount of time, the team could still get solid production out of Antonio McDyess (whose contract is also up in 2009), Jason Maxiell or even Amir Johnson.
Rasheed is somewhat of a polarizing figure in Detroit sports, so I’m curious how this idea will be received. Read the rest of it and tell me, am I off-base or might I be onto something?
Well, there are a few issues here.
First of all, what do you get for the expiring contract? Its one thing if you’re trading a under-performing player’s contract (ex. Ratliff) to make your team more competitive. While Sheed is in decline he is still better than what you’re going to get for a comparable contract. If you find a similar player he is going to be signed for a longer term deal and is likely to be overpaid (like Marion). There is a reason teams dump these guys for expiring contracts - basically, if they could, they would just waive the guy. How is adding a player like that beneficial to the pistons? You raised the Marion rumor, but again, then you’re adding arguably a better player in the short term, but also an overpaid player who will handicap you from making any other additions for the duration of the contract. Would’nt we be better off resigning Sheed to a cheaper deal the following season and using the rest at another position. Its possible that the expiring contract that Sheed will become will be an asset in a larger deal to acquire a superstar like the KG deal but its far from certain such an opportunity will present itself. In short, Sheed should be worth more than just his contract to somebody out there.
Secondly, (Unless he is just going to be bought out) Sheed has to be happy wherever he gets traded to. Thats how it works in the NBA. No one wants an unhappy “bad Sheed”. Presumably the team would need to be a contender. This limits options considerably.
Thirdly, Sheed is irreplacable. Yes, he is declining, but at this point in his career he is a center. You can’t replace him with Maxiell, Johnson, OR McDyess who are all power forwards. Unless we upgrade the C position some other way, losing Sheed would be a huge hit to the interior D.
I’m not really sure where this team will be headed a year from now. Will we be headed towards an overhaul or trying to add another piece to climb up the title (or being optimistic, trying to repeat.) If its rebuild - then it doesnt make sense to trade Sheed as an expiring contract to a team trying to dump an overpriced long term contract. If we are trying to add another piece to the puzzle, I can’t see how losing Sheed would make us a better team.
Well said
We’ll see what he does with the rock this season. After all, the ball don’t lie…
I love Sheed, but Marion + another Phoenix starter would have helped us a great deal. This means that Wallace still has a lot of value around the league and should be shopped by Joe to get the Pistons back to championship form.
If Detroit makes the finals this year Rasheed Wallace is not going anywhere. If the Pistons don’t make the finals this year then they need a substantially new formula and I’d support trading ‘Sheed.
Chip,
That was another DETROIT starter for the deal, not another Phoenix starter.
very well said by Mat
Unless we dont re-sign anyone…i think the Pistons will be looking the same for years to come…dont know if that is a bad thing but i do hope that we will have YOUNG players ready to step up when our core starts declining in age.
Well, I was going to write a super long post that essentially said:
“I’m not really sure where this team will be headed a year from now. Will we be headed towards an overhaul or trying to add another piece to climb up the title (or being optimistic, trying to repeat.) If its rebuild - then it doesnt make sense to trade Sheed as an expiring contract to a team trying to dump an overpriced long term contract. If we are trying to add another piece to the puzzle, I can’t see how losing Sheed would make us a better team.”
So instead I’ll just add this:
Even though I front being all about numbers and breakdowns, there is definately something to be said for a player’s heart, leadership skills and ability to literally DEFINE the franchise they play for. These players are rare but have always been an important part of who the Pistons are and what seperates Detroit from other teams. Lambier, Mahorn, Isiah, hell even Lindsey Hunter when he was a “never let you even breathe” lock down defender. At our best, our best players have been INSEPERABLE from the values that define Detroit. As much as I respect their skills, I couldn’t root for the Spurs because of this. When we let Ben walk my head understood but it took several days for my heart to come around to that decision as a fan. I knew part of my team’s identity had just left to Chicago (though frankly I’d already wondered if Ben’s heart ever made it to Cleveland that year). The REASON I eventually came around to the idea is because Sheed, even though he didn’t have a crazy fro or c-rows, even though we didn’t bang a gong when he came on the court, even though he was a last min addition to the championship team……was every bit as Detroit as Ben Wallace and possibly more. Uglier, nastier, more honest, more real…More D-Town.
Now you gonna tell me Rip Hamilton will give us that in 2009? I love Rip, Tay and Chauncey but they AREN’T Detroit nasty at heart… they’re talented players but they just aren’t the same without someone like Sheed to inject that nasty. Without it imho the Pistons are basically the Houston Rockets with a much better PG and a worse SG… It’d take a HELL of a character to replace what Sheed brings to this team without even getting on the court.
The only way I would be willing to accept Sheed not retiring a Piston is if his next contract demand is completely out of whack with what we can afford or he gets caught with peeing on a 14 year old girl….
Rasheed is one of my favorites and I don’t want to see him go, I want to see him win another championship in Detroit.
That said I can see deals for him in ‘08-09 that make sense if things go sour. Denver swap Marcus Camby for ‘Sheed and save one year of Camby’s contract and ‘Sheed just might be happy playing with Iverson and Carmelo. Camby is happy at the 5 and would be same kind of compliment to Maxiell that (tall and long) than Big Ben (short and strong) was to ‘Sheed, only reversing the 4 and 5.
Another player that is intriguing (not necessarily involving Rasheed) is Elton Brand who will be missing most (or all) of this season with an achilles injury and then be a free agent next year. I can see the Clippers dealing him for prospects to get something as teams take a flier on a 20-10 PF who shoot a high FG%. Brand would fit nicely in Detroit and the Clips love cheap young players. Would you take a flier on Brand being OK for the playoffs?
One of the problems (or virtues) of the Pistons being constructed as a balanced team is it’s hard to trade one piece without dramatically changing the chemistry of the team. I can see the Brand deal (trading future guys for now) or Camby deal (one for one swap, young guys step up at 4) but I’m struggling to imagine much else out there worth doing.
After this season, Rasheed Wallace becomes the most valuable asset the Pistons have had since Grant Hill.
You do the math.
I wanna pee on youuu, drip drip drip
great sketch
I agree wholeheartedly with PG4L, Sheed IS detroit basketball. I would really like to see him retire a Piston. Would also like to see him stick around as a big man coach.
I know he will have good trade value but I would like to see us sign him to a smaller deal and let take Dices role coming off the bench for 25ish minutes a game.
And holy crap Michigan is about to lose to appalachian state, time to fire up firelloydcarr.com
I hate big ten network. wtf that game shouldve been on regular tv. argghhhh. I missed the Mich/Oh St. game late year while I was overseas and I miss this one cause big ten put this game on their stupid channel. Arghhh. Time to drown my sorrows.
Well lovely, so much for college football this year…. I really don’t have anything positive to say here so lets go with the absolute least negative thing I can say:
“You ever notice that Michigan only has two seasons? Either we win our first games by piles only to choke to death right at the end (usually vs OSU), miss the championship bowl and then get drilled in whatever consolation bowl the team goes to because nobody can get pumped for the Alamo Bowl. OR, we get absolutely embarassed sometime before September is over, lose 2-3 random games all season and then DESTROY the Buckeyes also ruining their season right at the end. So I guess we might as well start betting Wolverines over Buckeyes now. Additionally because these types of seasons always seem to rotate, you could probably make HUGE coin betting Michigan to finish in the top 10 in 2008-09.”
Also, if you’re Jake Long……how do you feel about coming back for that senior season RIGHT NOW?
Jesus what a f&*king damn mess. The BEST part about all this is that NOBODY who votes in the polls actually knows that Appalacian State isn’t really a cupcake (two time defending Div II champion) so we’re PROBABLY headed right out of the top 25….. like as in 10 mins ago.
Just….ugh…Imma spend the rest of today crying into my Desmond Howard replica jersey.
That Michigan loss makes me that much more anxious for the NBA season to start. In the meantime, I’ll have to make due with seeing how many points Kitna and Calvin Johnson can score for my fantasy team in high scoring losses.
Oh, and I don’t think Rasheed is the identity of the franchise. My favourite moment from last years playoffs was in the final game of the Bulls series where Tay got him to bitchin’ to the refs and play.
Tay is the one player on the team who seems just as hungry to win now as he did before 2004.
this season or last season does tay seem more hungry
LET”S GO PISTONS AND LET”S GET THAT SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2007-2008 IT”S OUR TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ALL BOUT DETROIT BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PG4Life always says it best.
But joejoejoe you seem to miss the real issue:
“If the Pistons don’t make the finals this year then they need a substantially new formula and I’d support trading ‘Sheed.”
The “new formula” they need is getting rid of Flip.
I think Sheed is over-rated, but I know I’m in the minority on that one. To me, he never delivers (except for that 3-quarter shot to tie the game at the buzzer. That was sweet). He’s more bark than bite, and he just seems slow and lethargic out there. Doesn’t rebound. Doesn’t really block shots any more or intimidate. He just seems to float around waiting to launch a three-pointer or seven. I’d rather see him shoot turn-around fade-aways all game because nobody can stop it, but he doesn’t. Flame away!
jbstork - I trust Joe Dumars on who should coach the team. I don’t always see what I want to see from the coach but I can’t square hating on Flip and then thinking Joe D. is one of the best GMs in the NBA (which I do) so I give the front office and coach the benefit of the doubt and wish Flip success.
Garrett - NBA teams with Rasheed Wallace on them have won about 62% during his career. You can say that’s lucky if you wish. I choose to credit the guy as a winner the same way Danny Ainge or Robert Horry get viewed as winners. He’s also a very good winning PF somewhere in the historical neighborhood of Horace Grant and Larry Nance, a great NBA player just shy of being Hall of Famer.
Hey guys, I’m a Warriors fan trying to gauge Rasheed Wallace’ value. It’s been interesting reading articles and discussions on trading ‘Sheed.
As Baron Davis, like Rasheed Wallace, has two years remaining, I find pairing the two of them together to be an attractive idea.
One of the packages I had in mind was:
Rasheed (2 years, $25M)
both Detroit’s and the Minnesota 2nd rounder you guys own
for
Al Harrington (3 years, approximately $27M left)
Patrick O’Bryant
2008 First Rounder (top 5 protected or it goes to ‘09)
‘Sheed gives us the defensive upgrade at PF that we need, while Harrington is younger and cheaper per-year the next two years. Offensively, Harrington is similarly versatile, so you don’t lose all that much.
Patrick O’Bryant hasn’t shown much, but he was a lottery 7 footer. A change of system and scenery are probably what he needs.
The first rounder speaks for itself; it’ll probably be in the 15-20 range unless disaster or miracle happens.
I’d like to get some feedback on this from non-Warrior guys; am I crazy? Does it make any sense from a Detroit perspective?
Al Harrington isn’t a winner and frankly hasn’t been that good anywhere for years despite having 3 different teams to try with. This is a liability dump.
Patrick O’Bryant was a draft mistake. This is a liability dump.
I fail to see how this trade does anything positive at all for Detroit except get a first round pick someplace in the teens or later for two seconds and the last year of Sheed’s contract.
Doesn’t look like a good move.
I now return to cutting myself with shards of beer glass while screaming “WHAT THE F*&K IS A MOUNTAINEER ANYWAYS” and trying to have Lloyd Carr poisoned through voodoo.
Yeah, bad day for football in the state of Michigan. My alma mata (Central and Western Michigan U) both lost, Eastern lost. Only State won. Don’t know about Ferris State or Grand Valley. But that damn UofM loss… my dad’s gonna be pissed.
I’m going to be grinning all week long, trying to explain to people what the big deal is about Michigan losing.
“No,” I’ll say, “They didn’t lose to a Big Ten team. They wanted to play a tune-up game before the real schedule started, so they scheduled a NOBODY– the worst team they thought they could get away with playing. I mean, they normally schedule a MAC cupcake to snack on, but this time they went I-AA. Then, they lost. And it wasn’t a fluke. They were beaten fair and square by a better coach with players who played their bowl game in the first week.”
“But why are you so happy? Aren’t you from Michigan?”
“Exactly,” I’ll respond. “I’m from Michigan and so I’ve lived with their smugness and their excuses all my life. ‘It was a bad call. Lloyd Carr is a terrible coach. The sun was in my eyes.’”
“Geez, you’re being awful tough on U-M.”
“Yup. My favorite way for them to drop from contention is to be beaten by the Buckeyes, but just for variety, I’m happy with a game 1 loss to a high school team.”
“Wow, you’re an A#$%&*#@!!!”
“No, really I’m not, it’s just how I feel about this one team, and it’s not even the team so much as the arrogant, smug, excuse-making fans.”
Present company excluded, of course.
@Jon, from GoldenStateofMind,
First, welcome. As a member of this community, we’re used to fans from other teams coming along and throwing some mud our way, so you’re a fresh breath of air. And let me say that I love Golden State, it was great watching you guys trounce Dallas…
About your trade– the only name I am willing to listen to from Golden State is Andris Biedrins. I’ve watched him closely since November, and I’m a fan. You put him in a trade with another player or two (if only to make the money work) for Rasheed Wallace, and I’d entertain it. What do you think?
Biedrins is regarded as an untouchable; to us he’s the equivalent of Chris Paul for NO/OK, Loul Deng of CHI, Kevin Martin (non-issue now that he’s signed) of SAC.
As a 21 yr old center that’s already capable of playing center for Don Nelson, Mullin is rightfully holding onto him. Unless it’s in a package for another under-28 young stud, he’s not going anywhere.
Some more on my take of ‘Sheed:
He’s not the old ‘Sheed. He’s got 2 years on his contract, and that sounds about right for how much he physically has left in the tank as a prime contributor.
Rasheed Wallace is highly underrated defensively (According to historical +/- figures, blocked shots + steals v fouls, which is what I was focused on)- BUT I don’t see how anyone can dispute he’s a little less effective offensively these days. His shooting has plummetted, he’s getting to the line less, and he’s shooting 3’s more. All that tells me the days where he’s a dominant scorer are fading away- he can do it, just not every night anymore.
Regarding the Pistons: with ‘Sheed, this year, they’re right in the mix at the top of the East. Depending on how the young depth plays out, they could be the best team, but overall, it’s fair to say they’re in the top 3 with Chicago and Boston (I don’t like Cleveland at all). By the same token, however, Detroit (and none of those teams) is gonna beat any Western Finals candidate. SA, PHX, DAL, even UTH and HOU are just too good. Really, really good.
In addition, I think we can both agree that the Pistons would like to get younger and deeper in the frontcourt, where outside of Amir and Maxiel, I can’t see much. I don’t believe Dumars is planning to go “total-rebuild” like Minnesota/Seattle/Portland (nor does DET need to so. On the flipside, I don’t think any Pistons fan wants to be married to a team with a gradual, inevitable decline as Billups/Sheed age the next couple years.
Trading Rasheed now is better than trading him next year, in my opinion. Next year, the demand for an extension is more prevalent, and knowing that ‘Sheed will leave, teams will offer less.
As an Eastern team, you likely have seen more of Harrington than I have (he’s only been a Warrior for half a season + playoffs). However, some objective analysis i’m looking at:
- Harrington, recently at least, is as good or better a shooter than Rasheed. In Flip Saunders’ offense, the PF gets alot of jumpshots. Harrington can hit jumpshots. He’s also got a post-up game that was neglected thanks largely to Golden State’s rapid fire system and Indiana’s use of Jermaine O’Neal.
- Harrington is younger than ‘Sheed by several years, but possesses many seasons’ experience and went to the playoffs before (multiple times).
- Economically, Harrington is about $4M cheaper than Rasheed for the next two years. I don’t totally know the Pistons financial outlook, but I do know that Billups is getting a huge raise and that Prince/Hamilton are getting small, built-in raises. If you’re skating the luxury tax threshold, an extra couple M this year and next could help.
What I’m taking from that:
You lose some on defense going from Rasheed to Harrington. You do get extra front court depth with a 7 footer. Next year, a mid-first should yield another rotation quality player in what is, at this early stage, looks like a deep draft.
My conclusion:
I doubt any deal happens at this stage in the offseason, but if the Pistons are slow out of the gate, then you have to look at this as you approach mid-season. A moderate shakeup might be a kick in the pants (for ’sheed going to us and for the Pistons approaching the playoffs).
While I appreciate you’re in depth analysis I honestly can’t agree with you that Al Harrinton is any good or likely to get any better. He is what he has always been a tantalizing player who SHOULD help a team win games but doesn’t.
The man is destined to be the inside force on lottery teams his whole life.
I feel you guys in GS man, I really do, but just because Sheed is slipping doesn’t mean we want your garbage and dude…
Harrington + O’Bryant is garbage, sorry.
Setting aside any package for Rasheed at the moment, how can you say Al Harrington is garbage? He was the starting PF on the GS team that rocketed into the playoffs. Actually, he even played center against Yao Ming. While he’d never be able to defend quality centers straight up, in the proper scheme, like the one GS used, that focused on length and footspeed, he’s an asset.
When defending the pick and roll, a big man has to be able to cut off a guard turning the corner; Harrington’s fast enough to do so. Even on a straight switch, he manages to stay sufficiently in front of smaller guys to funnel them into help. Because he’s faster than most bigs, he’s also a good guy to front with since he can get position, make any entry pass harder, and recover even after an entry pass attempt.
The ‘02-03 Pacers went 48-34. Harrington averaged 30 MPG over 82 G.
The ‘03-04 Pacers went 61-21. Harrington averaged 30 MPG over 78 G.
Yes, his Hawks teams sucked, but …c’mon, Billy Knight?
The Pacers in ‘06-07 in the first half struggled, and that was probably the worst stretch of his career since becoming a regular player.
Yet you’re going to blame Harrington for the poor success of those 3 recent seasons and ignore his most recent accomplishment (helping *golden state* to the playoffs, of all teams) and past success?
I can’t buy that.
I’m actually going to side with Jon on this. I’m not saying Harrington would be a shoe-in to start for the Pistons, but he definitely could be a decent role player to complement Maxiell and Amir. Like Sheed, he likes the outside shot (and unlike Sheed, he actually manages to shoot .400+ from long-range: .417 and .458 the last couple of years).
I doubt the Pistons would make such a move this season, but this kind of move might be something to consider a year from now when Wallace only has a year left on his contract.
If Sheed is traded, I highly doubt it’d be a one-for-one, starter-for-starter type deal. It’d be for a collection of solid role players and potential to a team looking to “the final piece.” As LanierFan alluded to, think about what Detroit did with Grant Hill.
He’s the starting PF on a GS team that barely HAS PF and didn’t actually contribute that much there…. I recall Bill Simmons pointing out that Nelly was testing him every single night in the Dallas series and that part of the reason was because he was borderline.
Going to the playoffs doesn’t make Matt Barnes special either man.
As for the Indiana Pacers and Al Harrington’s first trip round with them…
Those would be the same Pacers who despite being the most talented team in the east let the Sixers, then the Nets and then us pass them yeah?
Career Underachiever isn’t a label i’d be interested in aquiring for Detroit.
Say whatever you want about the man’s skills but you’re overhyping and asset that might I remind you neither of us can actually trade. There’s a REASON Indiana gave him to GS for nothing and threw in Jackson.
Still not swayed, Harrington is a spare part at this point nothing more. Rasheed Wallace is a All Star PF… I can prove it, check out last year’s all star lineup.
And Matt, if I may offer an opinion… I think the only reason you’re even thinking about this is because you’re dead sold that Amir is the future. If he is, then you are right, trades for solid role players who are willing to not be the man COULD be an improvement over an older ball hogging Sheed who just doesn’t get that his role has diminished…
However, we are NOT there. Sheed made the damn All Star team last year and from what *I* personally saw had his BEST year defensively because so much more weight was on him. I’ll conceed he’s slipping, but he hasn’t fallen off the curve yet and he plays PF in the NBA, not RB in the NFL it’s not going to just happen overnight. Plus we have absolutely NO clue if Amir is really the man or not.
In short I think it’s really dangerous to start shedding assets like Sheed to make room for our “promising” young PF (Baby Eater and Amir) until they become something more than promising. Let’s see Amir look like Al Jefferson for half a season before we start GIVING AWAY ALL STARS for “role players who won’t mind supporting Amir and Jason”.
Either way trading for Al Harrington? Come now he was practically FREE last year and nobody was really interested…….twice… you can’t seriously think spending ANYTHING to aquire Al Harrington is a good idea… again, Indiana THREW HIM IN to get rid of SalIcan’tSpellthat and Jackson.
I’m not advocating a trade now, I’m talking about next summer, at which time we should have a good idea what we have with Maxiell and Johnson. Also, Rasheed Wallace didn’t make the All-Star team last year — he made it in 2005-06.
Also, the Pistons have been linked to Harrington (albeit through rumors which may or may not be based in anything) before, not that it matters much in a hypothetical blog discussion …
But I don’t think it’s fair to say Detroit had a chance to get him for free and passed twice — he signed a four-year, $35.3 million deal last summer. The Pistons *never* had that kind of money to play with — they could have gone over the cap to re-sign Ben, but when he left all they had remaining was the midlevel for Nazr and the biannual for Flip Murray.
Plus, the Pacers didn’t simply give him away in the trade — Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy are solid (if overpaid) NBA players. I’m not trying to start a Detroit chapter of the Al Harrington Fan Club, but the guy definitely has talent and upside. If the Pistons passed on guys who bounced around the league before finding a niche they’d never have gotten guys like Chauncey, Ben, McDyess …
You guys are focused around here, geez! My UM troll just stayed under the bridge where it belonged.
Sheed will forever be one of my favorite personalities in the L, but getting value for someone who may be in serious decline would be nice. I think, however, that his decline may be linked to certain conflicts that he has with certain coaches. How many of use have had the exoerience of not working as hard when we don’t agree with our boss. I think it speaks to his professionalism and passion that he hasn’t stated the obvious: Flip is not the right coach for this team.
It’s a veteran team that has leadership and talent on the court, but far less leadership and talent on the bench. Not many teams have as many weapons, offensively and defensively, as Detroit. Yet we have not played quality ball in the ECF for the last two years. When the offense fizzles, it’s because players are tired, or coaches aren’t able to get players to execute. Detroit’s discipline and identity have been cast aside in the ECF two years in a row. It’s a coaches’ job to make the players focus on the things that brought them success. And players taking shortcuts comes from a lack of focus, or WAY TOO MANY MINUTES during the season. Not just the fatigue of the minutes, but the stress and effort of playing to win every single game, for the dubious honor of a #1 seed.
I’d rather see a team come together over the stretch than coast downhill with a top spot. If you haven’t needed to be hungry in the three weeks before the playoffs, if you feel like you already accomplished something, then what else do you need to prove?
Sheed is too honest and smart and experienced to listen to someone who can’t teach him and won’t discipline him. Watching him after he had fouled out against New Jersey in Game 5 of the ‘04 season, I have never been more impressed with his commitment to winning. Point him in the right direction, and who knows how many years he’s got left.
Ramble, ramble, ramble, Flip, Flip, Flip, sorry for the unfocused post…
Interesting how you’ve changed course. First Harrington is garbage associated with lottery teams, then it doesn’t matter that he’s been on multiple playoff teams? I didn’t come here to fight, but that’s serious backpedaling.
Matt Barnes is not special because he went to the playoffs; he’s special because he was a journeyman who made himself better and found a good fitting-system then stepped up while in the playoffs. No one is saying he’s great, but bashing the guy out of no where is just uncalled for.
As Matt pointed out, the Indy-GS deal was done because:
1) Stephen Jackson had worn out his welcome
2) Rick Carlisle’s rigid offensive system could not utilize Jermaine and Al together
3) Murphy and Dunleavy were horribly overpaid
4) Murphy and Dunleavy were the worst possible forwards for a Don Nelson system
I wouldn’t characterize anything I’ve said as hype. If anything, you’re overbroad language describing the Warriors and Harrington seem to show a personal bias against the team and the player. I’ve got nothing against the Pistons, I enjoyed watching them dismantle the Lakers a couple years ago, no one’s trying to rip anyone off. It’s just hard to have a discussion when another’s primary interest is venting emotion rather than useful analysis.
I’ve sung the praises of Sheed defensively, but really, how much of an asset is he? What’s the market for him? No young team would take him for his age and cost; only a certain few “contending” teams have front offices willing to gamble on his volatility.
So I guess the question is, how far do you think you can get with him, and how much do you think you can get for him? IMHO, no team would give up a blue chip talent for him; an expiring + picks is possible, but I would have to look at specific teams to see if that even had that available. Such a package might be “value”, but it would also change the direction of the team toward “rebuilding”, which won’t happen with Billups re-signed for big money.
A more “rebuild-on-the fly” while collecting assets seems to be the best compromise.
I didn’t say it didn’t matter that he’s been on multiple playoff teams. I said that he’s been a career underachiever.
Look if ya like the guy so much why don’t you keep him? Seriously I’m not getting the attitude here. Nor am I backpedalling… here in english I will say again “AL HARRINGTON IS COMPLETE GARBAGE”… infact I’ll also add “Players like him are a dime a dozen except MOST of them don’t come with star player attitude” and I’ll even go so far as to state “I dislike short PF tremendously unless they’re buck nasty (see Maxy and your own Beatrice (( and that is showing the Warriors animosity, not agreeing with your hypothetical IN MY OPINION one sided rip off is just being real))) I REALLY don’t think he’s all that good and his recent track record ISN’T very good at all recently. The fact is he doesn’t work into the Warriors long term plans and you know it so your busy here trying to talk yourself into thinking Al Harrington could ever go for Sheed Wallace. It’s not happening and it’s definately not fair. We can agree to disagree but I’m STILL reserving the right to think your mental for saying Sheed for Harrington is somehow a good deal.
On a more personal note very little of what I said was particularly snarly up until this point. Accusing me of a “anti-Warriors” bias is pretty much insane. I didn’t bash Matt Barnes either, I just pointed him out as someone else from a playoff team I wouldn’t consider trading for because he isn’t special, I can get another player just like him without trading. Here, would you trade for Flip Murray? HE WAS AN EASTERN CONFERENCE FINALIST LAST YEAR YOU KNOW? He like may have played some mins even. Seriously you seem like a smart guy but it’s really not fair to imply I have a personal issue with anyone or anything after ASKING for my opinion on a HYPOTHETICAL trade. My opinion is you’re dreaming about dumping two liabilities for an asset at the cost of a late teens pick (Note I just picked your stupid team to MAKE THE PLAYOFFS AGAIN JACK so how the f*&k is that anti-warriors bias?) in exchange for two shots in the dark (mid-late second rounders)….Nothing about that deal appeals to me and imho (which again cheif you FREAKING ASKED FOR REMEMBER?) shouldn’t appeal to Joe. Frankly I doubt this deal would appeal to the computer on NBA Live and it’s worse at this than Larry Bird.
Before you get heavy on me PLEASE make sure I’ve actually done something next time. I assure you if you read my previous posts here it won’t take long for you to find a LEGITIMATE reason to be pissed off at something I’ve typed. Like for starters I think Baron Davis should shave that hideous beard.
Matt, my bad I really did think that was last year RE: Sheed and the All Star game….. but honestly I can’t see how aquiring Al Harrington is a good idea. As for the for free comment, I was pretty sure that before it took an EXCRUCIATINGLY long time to get him to Indiana, Mr Harrington implied that he’d be willing to play for a contender for cheaper. I suppose “For Free” is a bit carried away but you could tell from the MOMENT they signed him that just wasn’t going to work out in Indiana… the guy wasn’t even CLOSE to an equal replacement to Artest or even Limpy Stojakoi’mnotspellingthat. Sure though, overboard on “for free” the first time…. the second? Mike Dunleavy was a liability dump. He makes the 12 year old girl scared face during NBA games, he has zero heart and believe me I read Golden State of Mind MORE than enough to know the man is freaking WORTHLESS in the clutch. Oh yeah he can’t play defence either. He won’t have an NBA job after this contract expires imo. Definately a liability dump. Troy Murphy has some game i’ll agree, you know when his foot is working and all. HOWEVER he had absolutely no value to the Warriors at that point, was VERY expensive, was highly unlikely to turn into a Nellyball player and thus was.. yeah, a liability dump. Basically the warriors gave up two players they DIDN’T WANT ON THE TEAM to get either Al Harrington (who continually found himself on the bench early ((see aformentioned Simmons article from GS/Dallas series and like… the games)) and didn’t produce anything special) or Stephen Jackson (who aside from Baron is the GS Warrior singularly most responsible for proving Dirk has no heart in front of an entire nature)… which player do YOU think Nelly was trying to aquire.. I mean, for really? I don’t think the Pistons are the kind of team to trade for something that can be had for so little.
I mean it’s cool, I get the picture that you still think he has something left to show…..I guess I just don’t and at this point I honestly don’t feel looking at the guy’s career ANYONE can say he’s lived up to his potential. Imho even if and when the time to aquire backups for Amir/Max does occur I really don’t get why that’d be the kind of guy to target…It’s not the same as Chauncey and Rip who were never put in positions to shine (though frankly Rip shined anyways)….as has been mentioned quite frequently Al Harrington was on the best team in the east for a couple of seasons and again I can’t stress this enough WASN’T that good and DIDN’T produce a championship. And the Dyess comparison isn’t even in the same ballpark. Injuries haven’t robbed Al Harrington of his body movement and forced him to relearn the entire game of basketball. Taking a shot on Dyees was almost like taking a shot on the Detroit training staff and it’s hardly a secret that they’re the best in the buisness.
Either way I’m terribly sorry to have pissed Jon off (prior anyways, I actually mean it this time) but really this trade isn’t happening for two reasons:
1) Detroit isn’t moving Sheed this season
2) Unless absolutely forced to Golden State is not keeping Al Harrington after this season and infact I’ll be suprised if he makes it past the deadline. He’s not the player they need at that spot or at least wasn’t when we last saw him. If he should suddenly flourish into the kinda PF perfect for Nellyball (not that he isn’t on paper, but that really never worked out did it? Again see Dallas/GS series and Harrington’s mins/when he came out) then they wouldn’t trade him because he’s locked up for next year thus also negating the Sheed for Harrington trade potential.
You can throw 3) Al Harrington isn’t any good in the “I think you’re wrong” pile if it makes ya feel better it doesn’t change much about #’s 1&2.
Note if you’re still paying attention when I said “short PF” i meant short bigs… before someone jumps all over me for a factual error I completely understand that Biedrins isn’t short for a PF….he’s short for a 5, which is what he plays in GS…. at least near as I can tell with as much as they move around. The point still stands, it doesn’t matter that he’s smaller than the other bigs he plays against, he’s nasty…..like Maxy.
Sorry for the double post but I have no desire to explain later that yes I know the guy isn’t a short PF.
On a side note I’d personally REALLY like the damn season to start so we can argue about something other than hypothetical trades and where Wang Zhi Zhi is going to sign. Normally I’d just ignore this part of the offseason entirely and watch college football but Michigan is now dead to me until they fire Lloyd Carr (and for clarity that’s the first time I’ve ever said that about any Michigan football coach, ever).
A couple points:
1. Your apparent hatred for Al Harrington seems to stem from the “underachiever” label. This, however, does not mean he’s not productive or “garbage”. Your use of “no championships” doesn’t really fly, either. ’sheed, for example, was considered an underachiever (and malcontent) for much of his career, as he possessed limitless talent yet never achieved the sort of domination a Tim Duncan did. Yet once he arrived in Detroit on an already playoff-bound team, he finally got his ring as a piece of a larger puzzle. Harrington joined a work-in-progress Warriors squad and was a positive player (+/- numbers wise, at least) while on the court.
Had Rasheed Wallace and the Pistons never won a championship, what would his legacy be? Ferocious player, certainly; talented, undoubtedly; but “realized his full potential? maybe not. So perhaps it’s time to ease off on Al.
I think it’s pretty unfair to use the delay in bringing Al to Indiana from Atlanta; Atlanta had some control in the sign-and-trade, Indy was over the cap, GS was over the cap. Free agent signings aren’t easy in the CBA era, and let’s be honest, how many players take less money? Why doesn’t Chauncy Billups play for the veteran minimum so the Pistons have more money to spend elsewhere?
2. The GS-IND trade was made for Harrington. Mullin had played with him before in Indy and there was that connection; he tried to sign him that offseason. The end result was that Jackson turned out to be extremely useful. Bear in mind there were only so many combinations that worked due to the size of contracts involved. There were many factors involved, like the length and size of Murphy/Dunleavy’s contract, Diogu’s inability to learn the Nelson offense, Murphy’s rebounding decline, Jackson’s relationship with Indiana, Carlisle’s offensive philosophy…you’re really ignoring quite a bit of what went into the deal to use it as a means of disparaging Harrington.
3. Harrington wasn’t quite as good as we’d hoped- but he was still a huge upgrade. If you watched a number of Warriors games, you’ll notice the defensive scheme works only with long, quick players. Murphy was incapable of rotating, which is why Nelson went with the undersized Barnes and Pietrus for long stretches, and why Harrington helped make our defense effective late in the season and into the playoffs.
The reason I want ‘Sheed is not because Harrington “sucks”, but because Sheed is an even better fit defensively. Age and cost are against him, but I want the Warriors to:
- shave off a year of Harrington’s contract
- get another guy to defend the rim
- offensively, I don’t think you can ignore Al’s advantage in the shooting department, unless you think Rasheed’s FG% will suddenly trend upwards
Bear in mind also Harrington was learning a new scheme on both offense and defense, going from Carlisle to Nelson is about as drastic a shift as you can make. Conditioning was also an issue, was the tempo of the Warriors can wear on someone that wasn’t in training camp preparing for it (Nelson asked all of his players to lose weight and boost stamina instead of going for mass and raw strength; Murphy’s rebounding decline can be in part traced to this).
3. You also need to look at the Warriors team, and where they stood. We were a perennial lottery team; Harrington was one upgrade that took us from loser to playoff team. Now, we’re lookign for pieces that will let us challenge the best teams in the West; it’s not really an insult to Al to say we’d like a better shot at stopping Duncan, Amare, and Boozer.
4. “Short bigs” is subjective…but hopefully Al won’t be playing the 5. It’s possible Croshere, POB, or Perovic show enough to be the backup C. In any case, Don Nelson’s positions are pretty fluid, and we switch a lot on defense. Speed matters more than height; heck, wingspan matters more than height. And Andris Biedrins is 6′11…is that short these days? There are lots of guys 7 ft that can’t play; why is height such an overriding factor in who you “like”. Ben Wallace was 6′9 and played the 5 for the Pistons, he was effective because of his quickness and length. As for “nasty”…I guess that’s subjective as well, but you should see some Euroleague games with the Latvian team.
At this point I suppose there’s nothing I could say or show you that would change your opinion, but I wanted to get that out there for the sake of anyone else reading and following the exchange.
Good luck to the Pistons this season.
Look.. and I’ll be honest, this is probably the absolute LAST week to be having an online discussion with a girl born and bred in a Wolverine house.. You want to say I’m exadurating and throwing terms around? Sure, I’ll buy that; I mean jesus I think I said something about blowing up Lloyd Carr’s office yesterday (waves hello to the FBI) but I’m pretty sure what I meant was “Damn that’s a firable offence and I don’t understand why Carr still has a job. Bo isn’t alive to say no, this is horrible, do something damnit!”… It just came out “I’mma blow up Lloyd Carr’s office if he’s still the coach vs Team Nike” or something close.
So you are right, Harrington isn’t garbage. Though being fair I probably saw ALOT more of him in Indiana (Remix Edition) than you did and WOW was he freaking awful but sure I’ll give you that pretty much EVERY Pacer (including Management, you DESTROYED them in that trade) sucked. That having been said I saw a grand total of 5 Warriors games last year and yes every single one of them was vs Dallas. (Last game of the regular season or second last, games 3-6 of the first round…game one wasn’t even showing and I knew the refs would send Dallas to the line 300 times on their home court down by one so I didn’t even bother watching game 2) I’m sure you saw more good Al Harrington games than I did, he certainly wasn’t motivated in Indiana… or Atlanta even though 20 good games could have turned him into God in that city they’re so desperate for a basketball star. Plus throw in that he was by far the most experienced starting player on the team and yet was NEVER able to show the Hawk any leadership… even though it was the single best opportunity of his career thus far to do so. That’s the problem Jon, right there in a nutshell.
He isn’t a winner, he isn’t a leader, he isn’t a character guy, he doesn’t have Sheed’s heart and I’m not in love with everything he brings to the basketball court. Also he looks significantly worse in a headband than our man Sheed does.
I don’t want Al Harrington because Al Harrington isn’t a Piston, he isn’t the right type of person to BE a Piston (believe me if you don’t know this team you don’t know what I mean but that isn’t just fan talk… there’s history here and an image to live up to. You wear that uniform and you represent a city that has a giant statue of a fist downtown, we don’t care if you like us or our attitude, that’s Detroit and if you can’t live up to that attitude your stay in D-Town will not be remembered fondly, no matter HOW great you are. Ask Sergei Federov how that goes). He isn’t Rasheed Wallace.
I’m sure you understand something of what I mean. I read Golden State of Mind…. I know what “Un-Stopable BABYEEE!!!!” means… I doubt you’d buy a deal to trade Baron Davis either.
Finally I’ll remind you once again, good GM’s from successful NBA teams don’t pay for things other teams will eventually have to give away. I meant what I said when I called Al Harrington a liability dump. It’s obvious the Warriors don’t actually want him anymore so why would trading Sheed even be in the picture? Danny Boy makes those kind of moves…Joe Dumars gives Portland nothing for Rasheed Wallace. It’s just not the kind of trade the Pistons make…
Finally re: Beidrins, thanks for the info on the height I didn’t know he was that tall. Either way I understand why he’s untradable.. he was very good in the games I saw vs Dallas and he’s obviously a perfect fit for what GS is doing with Nelson…. though no lie’s its the worst kept secret in the world that you guys would have paid the house for Eazy-Yi because he might actually be the ideal big for that system.
I’d wish the Warriors luck out of courtesy but no offence Jon… there’s only one Larry O’Brien Trophy to go around and I’d really prefer that makes it way to D-Town this year….my love for Oakland aside.
Joe Dumars would not trade for Al Harrington because Al Harrington could be had “for free” as a “liability dump”.
Joe Dumars traded for Rasheed Wallace (paying nothing, getting him “for free”). Hrm. Perhaps Rasheed Wallace might be properly classified as a “liability dump” from his former team (the Hawks, technically, not Portland).
I sense a disconnect ^there^.
If Al Harrington a liability dump, then it strikes me that’s the best time for Al Harrington to get him. The price for a player is low when he’s considered a liability; the price is high when he’s considered an asset. That’s just the way a market works.
Were Rasheed an incredible, flawless asset, would Joe Dumars gotten him for “nothing”?
Certainly, there are stupid GM’s (don’t get me started on Orlando, or Indy, or New York…), but I find your reasoning here pretty flawed. If you don’t want Al Harrington for Rasheed Wallace, it should be because:
1. You believe the Pistons will go farther now with ‘Sheed, and that means another Finals shot.
2. There is a better deal for Rasheed Wallace.
I would buy into either argument. I can’t buy into yours.
I certainly don’t claim do know about Detroit, but I worked in Oakland, I go to watch games there. You need attitude and fire to play there, or you’ll suffer the wrath of the *cough* best fans in the NBA *cough*. Ask Dunleavy, Jr. how Warrior followers treat passionless guys.
Umm now you’re squirling…. the disconnect is that Sheed was free… while you are asking for Sheed in return. See the problem? In one scenario we aquire a leader for nothing. In the other scenario we give you a leader for a backup PF on this team. Please just stop okay? IF Al Harrington were to suddenly become a FA because GS bought him out and he was within our price scale you can bet Joe would be more interested. Joe got Sheed for nothing because Portland finally agreed to give him away for nothing. Why? He wasn’t working out there on an epic scale. We paid nothing and got one of the most talented players in the NBA… that’s called a steal. Your asking for a HUGE asset (Sheed Wallace) in exchange for someone the team likely doesn’t want but if they did COULD get alot cheaper when Mulling finally caves and does something stupid to get rid of him and yes it’s coming. You can’t possibly be this thick guy.
I’m now no longer sure that I’m the Ogre in this discussion and your very first point has lead me to question your motives. I mean it you actually had me there last night which is why I bothered to explain it politely to you. Now I realize I was right all along. Your a fan who’s trying to convince the world this might happen so that you can believe in it too. Good luck with Brandon Wright.
Have a great summer trying to talk Joe into this deal but I shan’t be discussing Al Harrington for Sheed again.
1. Harrington isn’t a backup 4; he was the starter at power forward and at center. He figures to start at power forward unless something miraculous or disasterous happens. You also repeatedly assert that GS “doesn’t want” Harrington without providing any foundation for that belief.
2. You call Rasheed an asset, yet concede that in his previous situation, he wasn’t. This is where I’m saying your reasoning is flawed. You say Harrington should come cheap and therefore he’s not valuable; yet Rasheed came cheap and he is valuable. Value is relative and fluid.
3. You can’t possibly argue that Rasheed is the same asset he was when he was first acquired. You’ve already conceded he’s declined offensively. My stance has always been that the Pistons aren’t as good anymore with him because he’s simply not as good as he used to be. Therefore a change of direction lies in the Pistons future, and that change of direction is one that does includes moving away from Rasheed.
4. I’m never attached any probability to this trade happening; my intent was to discuss whether it *should*. I don’t claim to be an insider, I don’t claim to work for either front office. I’m merely filling time by exploring an idea. Throughout this discussion you’ve consistently fallen back on your personal feelings and opinions, observations (which have been shown to be inaccurate and concededly limited). You have a right to believe whatever you want, but an unwillingness to step away from them doesn’t really aid in what was supposed to be a neutral discussion.
5. I guess it boils down to this:
- How far will the Pistons go the next two years with Rasheed Wallace?
- What packages could the Pistons get for Rasheed Wallace?
If the answer to the first one is “the finals” or the answer to the second one is “better than what you offered”, then I’m happy to submit. But I haven’t heard that from you.
Hey Jon, how about them Raiders? I’m figuring I’m taking them and the points over the Lions this weekend, I mean dude it’s the Lions!
How’s the weather in Oakland these days? Life treating you well? Any chance Baron is gonna shave that stupid beard soon?
Wishing you all the best, love Pistonsgirl
There are just too many obstacles and too few benefits to moving Sheed. He is a fierce defender with an almost unblockable shot and has excellent 3 point range and shows up for the playoffs (unlike some big men). He also plays Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard and Kevin Garnett very well. You are not going to get equal value for him.
One more thing to consider. You pointed out that his statistics are declining. Could this not be because he is required to carry more of the defensive load in the post with Ben gone? Which requires him to exert more energy on the defensive end? Let’s remember something. Sheed’s game is not based on great athleticism like Webber’s. And he is not as motivated during the regular season. Which means there are many potential explanations for those declining numbers and he should retain his level of capability well into his thirties. Especially with the contribution of Amir Johnson and Jason Maxiell.
Honestly, If I were the the GM for the Pistons I would stand pat because on paper they really look formidable for years to come with Amir Johnson, Jason Maxiell, Rodney Stuckey and maybe even Cheik Samb. Not to mention Aaron Aflallo who I think has the DNA to be a solid NBA contributor.
Rasheed will need to be in a Pistons uniform to mentor the youngsters and push them to be better in practice and this is going to prepare them to contribute in the near and distant future. Moving him would be a big mistake. Rasheed has Pistons DNA and his contribution would be missed.
sdjs, did you just say that Sheed’s game is NOT based on great athleticism like Chris Webber? That’s sorta like saying Chad Johnson (who I love) is a quiet locker room presence and Houshmanzadeh is a brash loudmouth. I think you meant to say Chris Webber and high basketball IQ whereas Sheed (you know, the tall, defensive presence that often 0stifles Duncan) has the great (or at least better) athleticism of the two. Today’s Chris Webber has the athleticism of Rik Smits.
Otherwise, I have no serious beef with what you’re saying, but I would suggest that Rasheed’s real role in the locker room is consistently injecting levity (see: Rasheed before Game 5 against the Bucks in ‘05-’06, a link for the hilariousness: http://www.need4sheed.com/2006/05/bye-bye-bucks-piston-take-series-4-1.html), because we really have enough level-headed veteran leadership to mentor the young guns and Sheed is anything but level-headed.
Jon, the reason for the backlash on your trade proposal is that as Pistons fans we don’t see ourselves in a position as needing a trade. Unless we’re going to be offered AI for Andre Miller (which I think Jon, you’d agree this is not), we’re going to stand pat. We don’t want to give up something we hold dear for Al Harrington because our confidence in our current squad (as you address in point five of your most recent post) puts us in a position of relative security as to not make moves out of desperation or moves that are patently high risk (see: Danny Ainge’s moves this offseason) in an attempt to rescue a sinking (sunken?) ship. You said yourself if our confidence is high (mine sure is), it calls for your submission. I suppose I’m calling for you to acquiesce.
When the Pistons acquried Rasheed Wallace (and Mike James for the rest of that season), they did it for the price of Bob Sura, Zeljko Rebraca, Chucky Atkins and Lindsey Hunter (who the Pistons seemed to know was going to be immediately released by Boston and end up floating back to Detroit). That’s essentially one very solid rotation player (backing up a very successful and beloved starter) and a bunch of scrubs for a guy who now leads the team in rebounds and blocks (ie: mad important) and for that stretch run, a guy who provided suffocating defense and an ability to control games in place of Chauncey. Giving up a guy who today leads the team in blocks and boards (Sheed) for Al Harrington and your scrub add-on (Patrick O’Bryant is a classically labeled “huge upside” bust who should’ve stayed in school) would essentially be working as a mirror image of the shrewd trade the Pistons made originally. Joe Dumars only makes lopsided trades when they’re in his favor, not disfavor. That’s what this would be.
I can only speak for myself (though I’m sure there are like-minded people out there) when I say I would be (barring injuries) very disappointed at anything short of a Finals appearance this year for the Stones, and because of that I’d see no reason to go after a guy who doesn’t really bring something the Pistons are absolutely clamoring so much for that they’d part with an integral member of the current squad. Power forward is one position that this team doesn’t have a shortage of, and no real reason to disrupt the great chemistry Sheed has with this team.
I think what people on this board are trying to convey is that if Al Harrington came to this team in a fashion comparable to Jarvis Hayes (reasonably priced free agent contract), the Pistons would be happy to welcome him. He is a good player. No one here should dispute that. He’s a very legitimate NBA starter, but $9 mil/year is a big commitment and in your scenario it would also come with a huge dent to team chemistry by the Pistons parting ways with Sheed.
If you’re a successful franchise and you’re not going to get a substantially better player (ie: Denver getting Iverson for Andre Miller), trades that are built on a foundation of two big names being exchanged (the value disparity is clearly not as large in your scenario as it was there) make no sense.
Posters on the board here (myself included) have a history of developing frustration with drawn-out discussions of extremely unlikely hypotheticals, especially those that we deem unfavorable to the adavancement of our squad.
I’m not trying to be a hater Jon, but you’re barking up the wrong tree here at DBB. If you want to give us contract-extended Biendrins and Pietrus (at about 11 and 9 per respectively for about 4-5 years each) for Sheed, Nazr, and Flip Murray with the Pistons making a contingent move using the opened up roster spot on Chris Webber at league minimum, I’d listen. This of course will not happen, but I think that’d be a trade we’d be more receptive to on this board. But I repeat, not usually fans of hypotheticals here, and what I just presented is just not a real scenario (even though I made the salaries match and everything!
Wow, that post was mad long … um … oops. Perhaps I should actually get something done at work today. Yeah …
*sticks hands in pockets while rocking on balls of feet, rolling eyes around aimlessly and whistling*
Also Sheed has ballz the size of watermelons…..The player who I shall not name for the rest of this summer in relation to trades involving Sheed Wallace? Not so much. And with that I really am done, everything LB just said is pretty much accurate as far as I’m concerned except alot nicer than how I put it so I don’t feel any further need to comment… except this which frankly nobody seems to understand:
Al Harrington will NOT finish this season as a Warrior. He wasn’t a good enough fit and Don Nelson isn’t interested, he’s walking trade bait. If Mullin can get someone to give value for that, great, but again when BILL SIMMONS knows your guy is a stone…. I’m pretty sure every NBA GM who HASN’T played for the Celtics does too. It doesn’t MATTER how talented a player is when GM’s smell blood in the water (see Allen Iverson).
Now really, bye.