Amir Johnson and his (lack of) playing time has been a frequent discussion on this site, and it’s the topic of my latest article on HOOPSWORLD:
What does Johnson need to do to earn the coaching staff’s trust? “I think just a total understanding of what we’re doing,” Flip Saunders said before Tuesday’s game. “That and being more able to defend his position without getting in foul trouble. I think a lot of times, even when he’s played games [in] 12 minute stints, he’s picked up four or five fouls in that time.”
Saunders is employing a bit of hyperbole - Johnson has tallied more than three fouls in a game only twice all year - but his point is still valid. Johnson is averaging just 8.1 minutes per game, but if you extrapolate his numbers over 36 minutes, he’s averaging 4.1 blocks and 6.9 fouls.
Read the rest of the article for Johnson’s reaction.
I’d also like to add this: as much as I’d like to see Johnson get more minutes, I just don’t know where they’d come from. Rasheed Wallace, Antonio McDyess and Jason Maxiell are playing very, very well. Plus, those three can play the four and the five, whereas Johnson isn’t strong enough to match up with most centers (not to mention some stronger power forwards).
If this were some kind of computer simulation, I’d just input Johnson for 6-8 minutes a night no matter what, but there’s something to be said for continuity and keeping the guys on the floor in rhythm, which is awfully hard to do when you’re constantly pulling guys off the floor and using a 10- or 11-man rotation.
So how would I use Johnson? I’d pick my spots, giving him more time on the second game of a back-to-back, or when the opponent is deep into a long road trip. Basically, find a way to exploit his best talent, which is his athleticism. And hey, while we’re at it, maybe run a few plays for him, even if they’re the impromptu alley-oops that Tayshaun and even Rasheed get tossed their way now and then.
But overall? The starting lineup’s minutes are down, Maxiell is enjoying a breakout year (even if he’s hit the wall lately) and Johnson is getting into the game more often than not. So long as he doesn’t get buried in the doghouse and sit indefinitely, there’s really not much this realistic Johnson apologist can get upset about. Yeah, maybe fewer fouls would be nice, but that will come with both time and more respect from the refs, both of which are out of his hands.
which comes first? the chicken or the egg?if AJ is to get better, he must play.he will not improve with half speed practice time.he must play,to get that “deer in the headlights” look off his face and get some confidence.
His time will come. He is playing behind some good players right now. What I like about him is he understands why. He has the right attitude unlike Darko who focus on eatting ding dongs and getting speeding tickets. He is working hard to get better so when his time comes he will make the best of it. Just look at what Maxiel has done. He did not get many mins. his first two years but now he plays a major role in what the Pistons are trying to do. We forget he is only 20 years old.
Per the Freep: get ready for a shortened bench…
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080117/SPORTS03/801170444/1051/rss16
the doc’s comment about maxiel shows why amir should get playing time now. if maxiel had gotten playing time last year,he would have been able to produce in last years playoffs and i think it could have made a big difference in how things ended last year.i wish we had a couch that wanted to build a team towards an end result[playoffs],not just manage the teams assets.
Kudos to Matt for his patience with the organization. Its a long season - Amir’s time will come, if and when one of the bigs goes down for a few games.
Matt W, RD,
i agree with almost everything both of you have said.
but i would like to re-state me objection to the foul-happy argument. focusing on the fouls he commits in garbage time is like focusing on the blocks he commits in garbage time. he’s not going to get five blocks in real game time, nor is he going to commit that many fouls. when five fouls prevent five dunks, they’re wisely commited fouls. even if it’s garbage time, i respect that. i’m sick of watching my pistons get dunked on by the d.wades and lebrons of the world.
in the one (or maybe two) instances of amir coming in in the first half i don’t remember him commiting a lot of fouls. and even if he did, it might be argued that the other teams know he never gets to play and are going to attack him. if he was a regular they wouldn’t put that target on his back.
all that being said, i’m genuinely ok (for our sake, not his) with him not playing much. max, herrmann and brezec will be plenty to cover the 4/5 spot. though if hayes continues to struggle i’d love to see amir try his hand at the 2/3
Matt W.
If I read the ending right you say you would like to see Amir try the 2/3? *sarcasm* Yeah Amir would make a great SG, he would be taller than anyone…ha ha ha.
That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Thank god you dont coach them, you would probably have Jmaxx play the 2 also huh?
He won’t get 5 blocks outside of garbage time, but the foul rate would seem likely to increase. That said, Flip dramatically overemphasizes fouling issues. He’s hardly alone in this regard. Fouls are one of those intangibl things that coaches like to harp on, and all coaches are notoriously insane about sitting players after they pick up two fouls.
Amir has earned minutes, and should get them. The foul problem certainly doesn’t place Brezec ahead of him. Why supplant a promising young player with star potential with a has been who was never very good to begin with?
“That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Thank god you dont coach them, you would probably have Jmaxx play the 2 also huh?”
Well, he can’t play the 2, but versatile big men can play the three from time to time if they have an outside game, and if they are fast enough to exploit the height advantage. Dirk would be a prime example.
The whole point is to create a mismatch. Say a lead-footed 3 is killing the Pistons with his short game. As long as Johnson can hang on D, his size and athleticism force double teams on the other end because the 3 can’t guard him.
The opposing team is forced to substitute (and waste a timeout) when they had a good thing going. Tay gets an extra 3 minutes and a TO to rest.
Ronnie, tone down the hyperbole and sarcasm,buddy. Matt runs the website, he deserves better than being a target. He deserves our appreciation and respect. If you’re so inclined to act like that, take on one of us, not Matt.
Not to mention, when does Matt say Amir should play the 2?
Kevin, Amir has earned his minutes just as much as Brezec has. Cheikh Samb has earned as many as either of them, and he’s relegated to the D League until there’s roster space. Amir is twenty, in his third season, and has 2 seasons left on his contract beyond this current one.
I’m so frustrated with everyone trying to rush this kid. Doc Sloan makes a great point in juxtaposing the attitudes of Darko and Amir. Amir never complains; he works hard and he probably believes in his heart that not only will his time come, but his time will come in a Pistons uniform. Darko (PERHAPS rightfully so) never bought that. I look for Amir next season to follow something similar to the two-year trajectory that Maxiell has followed this season and last.
Joe has done a great job turning what recently appeared to be a liability (frontcourt depth) into one of the team’s greatest strengths. This team, unlike many others in this league, not only features a formidable current frontcourt, but a future one as well. Patience my friends, patience.
ronnie,
matt w. didn’t say it, i did.
Amir is too tall to play the 2? kevin durant is playing the 2 and he’s the same height as amir. amir is only 1 inch taller than Jarvis and 2 taller than Rip. I don’t think that automatically excludes him from the spot.
I’d mostly like to see him back up tay at the 3 spot. but I included the 2 because Hayes has been inconsistent his entire career and if we’re going to rely on him we’re also going to need a backup if gets hurt or shoots poorly. Amir or Herrmann could do this, but that would include occasionally playing the two.
kevin s.,
i agree that his foul rate would stay high at first because he’d be the one the opponents constantly attacked, but i think it would taper off. 98% of the time he’s played so far he was with all bench players, they allowed even more penetration than usual and amir was faced with either letting them dunk or fouling them. I’d like to think that with the starting unit he wouldn’t have to make that decision so much. but even if he did, i’d like to think he’d still commit the foul. no easy dunks. not any more.
Flip Saunders,
i’m not going to buy the foul argument until Amir regularly gets real minutes in real games and is still having troubles. it seems silly to me to say “well he got all those blocks, but it was garbage time so it doesn’t matter,” and then turn around and say “well, he committed a lot of fouls, and despite it being garbage time, it matters.”
either he’s a great shot blocker who commits too may fouls, or an underutilized bench player who’s never gotten a legit chance to show his skills. saying his blocks don’t count but his fouls do is trying to have your cake and eat it too. we know you’re scared. we know your job is on shaky ground and you don’t want to lose. most of us can even accept not playing amir, but using arguments like the foul thing is insulting the intelligence of the fans.
Sorry, long day at the office. I guess I was taking my frustration out here a little. Sorry Matt, and sorry for being blunt.
I’d really like Amir to be Tay’s backup and use Hayes/Afflalo at the 2 backing up Rip.
Kyle, how much does Durant weigh compared to Amir? Being skinnier makes you faster and more agile. Thats why I think saying Durant playing the 2 is not a good comparison. Plus Durant is playing everywhere because Seattle really doesnt have much except him.
Ronnie,
I really appreciate you giving a mea culpa. I know I sorta jumped on you, but after the mini-feud with the Kendrick Perkins Crew (where I’ve declared us victorious as that dude is now on “strike), I just hate people cutting down what Matt works really hard on.
Regarding the Amir thing, he probably doesn’t have the shooting skills to play the 2, but it has nothing to do with height and/or athleticism. Hedo Turkoglu is a legit 6′10 and has played SG for a lot of his career and has done quite well. Mike Dunleavy Jr. played some SG on Golden State and he was the Pacers’ starting SG until Jim O’Brien inserted Kareem Rush into the starting lineup (woot! woot!) and yanked Troy Murphy out, switching Dunleavy over to SF. And as for Durant at SG on Seattle as Kyle pointed out, it makes perfect sense since they have Wilcox, Jeff Green, Collison, and (sometimes guard) Szczerbiak to play the forward spots.
And just for the record Ronnie, Yahoo! has Durant at 6′9, 225 and Amir at 6′9, 210. Supposedly the Pistons claim (and I believe Matt W. agrees) Amir is now 6′11 (I do not buy that for even half a second) and no update on the weight that I know of.
Wow, Durant is heavy…I would not have guessed that.
I agree with RD. How is Amir supposed to get better without playing time. I wish he could even play in the dleague but he can’t anymore. And if Amir was to play 8 minutes a game why do fouls matter? Its no big deal if he fouls out and he’s there to learn. Stuckey had foul problems the first couple games but he didn’t get benched in the long run.
It just seems odd that Stuckey can play (which is great) and make mistakes, yet Amir has been here longer and has shown just as much potential but doesn’t get that chance. I get that the Pistons need Stuckey ready since he fills a need but doesn’t Amir as well? Don’t the pistons lack inside scoring as well as slashing? It’s like its a double standard.
AJ needs to bulk up and improve his positioning on defense.
By bulking up he will be able to play the 5 in addition to the 4. That alone will give him more opportunities.
Michael Jordan when asked who was the guy who defended him best said Joe Dumars. Jordan then added, that Dumars defended him better than anyone else because he was the best at positioning himself.
Matt G.,
i totally agree with you. having him sit and watch can’t be that good for him. even if he’s got a better attitude than darko did it still can’t be as good as actually competing.
flip feels he’s played amir enough, and found reason enough (fouls) to write amir off. he doesn’t want his performance this year judged on developing young talent or a change up offense, he wants it judged by regular season wins (same as the last two years). it’s the safest and easiest way for flip to claim he’s doing a good job.
i wonder if flip is capable of a run and gun offense. in the 64 win season i swear we ran a lot, but flip’s inability (or unwillingness) to integrate delfino, murray and amir has me wondering if flip just isn’t up to the task. i swear if we had lebron james flip would use him as a jumpshooter.
Kyle’s point is big. The invisible stat no one tallies is uncontested scores. Our 4th or 5th big man should attack if it prevents a basket. Who cares if he fouls out? Given our sub pattern, it’s unlikely the FTs will decide the game.
Flip loves his huge playbook, and he loves having veteran pros who can execute it. Plus a lot of us were spoiled by Ben Wallace, a statistical freak who rarely fouled. But if you’re like me, you still remember Dirk Nowitzki shooting over Dice and running Sheed ragged.
Bottom line, this team would benefit by focusing on what Amir can do instead of what he can’t.
Playing time is not the biggest factor in Amir’s development. It’s weight training. He still doesn’t have an NBA body. As athletic as he is, he won’t be able to hold his position on offense or defense until he bulks up. And he won’t be able to finish with a body on him. Until he bulks up, it’ll be put back dunks and an occasional fadeaway. Nothing more.
Those of us who want more PT for Amir should be those in the “no Webber” camp. Webber would be the nail in the coffin for Amir this season.
I’ve changed a bit on my stance on that argument though, and primarily because I’ve accepted that this season won’t be Amir’s awakening. Having accepted that, I’m more willing to entertain Webber as our 4th big behind Wallace, McDyess, and Maxiell.
However, with the noted slowing down of Maxiell, as pointed out by MW in this post, wouldn’t you think that this could be a golden opportunity for Amir?
This is enjoyable…
http://hoopshype.com/blogs/johnson/index.php/2008/01/17/joakim-noah-please-shut-up/
QD,
that would be true if he were a back to the basket player. i always saw him as a facing the basket guy who used speed and trickiness to get inside, not strength. you’re right though about his size on the defensive end, that’s why i’d like to see him at the three. i’m sure he could guard threes and some fours, but he won’t be able to guard 5’s or be a legit post up player until he puts on some weight.
MP,
i too have given up on amir for this season, but i still worry about getting webber back. amir or not, i think webber brings more negatives then positives.
Kyle, I see him as a face the basket player too but he’ll still get bumped on the drive, throwing off his shot. At this level, I can’t see him just blowing by people so he’ll have to bulk up to be able to absorb contact and finish.
Compare Maxiell’s production in limited time the last two years to Amir now. He made an instant impact because he has an NBA body.
My biggest problem with Amir is that he isn’t even on the roster in NBA Live 08. I mean, c’mon.
Brezec has been abysmal for two years running. Johnson deserves some minutes on merit, and his potential certainly ought to break any ties in this regard. Have you compared the PERs between Brezec and Johnson? It’s not close, and there is no mitigating cricumstance that justifies the minutes.
Herrman is talented and young. Sure, work him into the rotation. But Brezec should not earn a single minute while Amir sits. If someone can make a valid counterargument with data to back it up, let me know.
QD,
i agree, but i think maxy got more of a pass than amir because of his body. all he did at first was offensive putbacks, but he got credit for it. now amir has done the same, but for some reason we criticize him for it.
and besides, theorizing by either of us what might happen if he got a shot is silly. the fact he still hasn’t gotten one is silly. run three plays specifically for him a night for two weeks. if he really is at that big a disadvantage because of his body, fine, i accept it. but why not try?
kevin s.,
i think he’s viewed as valuable because he’s the biggest big we’ve got and he’s shown the foot speed and hustle to be an asset on the defensive end. i agree that we should be focusing more on amir, but i think brezec has shown some useful assets.
Amir is truly a conundrum for this site! Everyone seems to want him on the floor somewhere, I too would like to see more Amir, but where? Some have said he should back up Tay at the 3, seems to me Detroit uses Hayes and sometimes Afflalo and lets not forget Hermann, How ’bout the 4, Maxi is the primary backup there, then there is our only “concern”, the 5. We have (in my opinion) a top 5 all-time 4 starting at center, and Brezec as a backup, or McDyess when Maxi is in, or I think Maxi even played the 5 a couple times (could be wrong there, but it appeared to me he was), it only makes sense that Brezec gets more time on the court here than Amir, Brezec IS a 5. Amir may be our center of the future or our combo big man (to coin a phrase.) As young and talented as he is, maybe, just maybe Flip and his coaching staff are trying to teach a (somewhere around) 6′10” guy how to play the 5 (would love to see Amir under the tutelage of Webber here.) Stuckey comes off the bench as a 2 then rotates over to the 1, When Johnson is on the court he is usually at the 4, but I see him defensively playing the 5 with Brezec rolling to the 4, please, someone correct me if I am seeing things wrong, but it certainly appeared to me that way in the Milwaukee blow out and during the time he was on the court in the knicks debacle. Secondly, with an aging Rasheed Wallace and soon to be retiring Antonio McDyess, the Front court of the future looks a little imposing Starting Center-Johnson/Samb, PF-Maxi/Johnson, SF-Prince/Affalo/Hermann, I like what I see in the front court, as far as our back court is concerned, Rip/Affalo/Stuckey at the 2 and Billups/Stuckey/somenewguy at PG. I would love Detroit to keep Hayes, but he will probably be starting for the Bucks or Sonics next year. Thoughts anyone?
pistons.com tackled the Amir situation today.
DJ, I like Rasheed as much as anyone, but he never was and never will be a top 5 all-time power forward. He’s not even a clear cut choice for top-10 (depending on what your definition of a 4 is and what players are eligible for the “4″ in this scenario).
I also think your posit that Hayes will “probably be starting for the Bucks or Sonics next year” is questionable. I would hope, and at current time assume, that we would be able to re-sign Jarvis for a moderate contract assuming that was Joe’s wish. If this weren’t the case, I would also imagine that any team that would desire his services would plan on utilizing him in a manner similar to the way we have him in the lineup currently.
On the subject of our future frontline, I love the look of it as well, though it should be made apparent that Hermann is a free agent at season’s end is no lock to remain a Piston beyond this season. Amir as a future 5 is a concept which intrigues me. If he really is 6′11″ instead of his previously listed 6′9″ (still not buying it) and he is able to add a solid 20-30 pounds, I could realistically envision it. I think there are a lot of uncertain contingencies it depends on, but I enjoy the forward thinking.
LB, I consider Rasheed Wallace one of the alltime best Power forwards in the history of the game because, I can’t find many who have (or) had the impact he has, there are better overall low post scorers, better overall defenders, better overall 3-point shooters, but I can find none who are in the top 75-80 percentile in all three catergories, then add in his BB IQ, not to forget his shot blocking, and personally, I think he is an all aroud better 4 than Tim Duncan. Rasheed has the talent and ability to start at the 5, 4, 3 and quite possibly the 2, I can think of no other forward with that kind of talent and range. I think the closest active player in the NBA to Rasheed is Carlos Boozer. Kevin Garnett, as good as he is, doesn’t have the range Rasheed has, I don’t believe he is athletic enough nor a good enough perimeter shooter to move to the 3, although I will concede he would excel as a center. LeBron is fantastic as a 3, would probably be an exceptional Point Guard as well (never happen…I’m just sayin’), but I can’t see him bangin’ on the box as much as Rasheed, or Duncan, or KG, so no 4 or 5 LeBron. I have never seen Duncan shoot from beyond the Arc (don’t really follow the Spurs though), and place him in the same categroy as KG but, please sir, as your time permits, I am curious as to who would place above Rasheed and why, I believe I answered your question, I hope satisfactorily, thank-you for response.
It depends on definitions and what you like. Sheed has the talent to be an all-time great at the 4, but so did Derrick Coleman. So did George Macinnis.
I wouldn’t rank Sheed as highly as Tim Duncan, Bob Pettit, Karl Malone, Elvin Hayes, Kevin Garnett or Charles Barkley. All consistently produced big numbers for a long time, taking on the main-man responsibilities that Sheed avoids. Then you’ve got guys like McHale, Jerry Lucas, Gus Johnson, Debusschere, even real old-timers like Dolph Schayes. I’d put Sheed near that second tier, which is still an incredible achievement. But you can’t take nights off and make Top 5.
LanierFan,
I agree with you absolutely. sheed is great, but everyone can see how much potential he’s wasted. with the skills he has he should be way better than duncan, but he’s not, and he probably never will be. everyone goes on about sheed’s bb iq, but he has made some monumentally stupid mistakes over the years and is constantly making himself look like a head case. duncan, in my experience, doesn’t have either of these problems. as much as i love sheed’s passion, i’d take duncan’s icy veins and always smart play any day.