[Update: Dumars spoke again today, check the bottom of this post …]
From the Detroit News:
“I have had an exchange (verbal) with Chris within the last 24 hours and I’ve been in constant communication with his agent (Aaron Goodwin),” Pistons president Joe Dumars said. “But the one thing that hasn’t changed is that we still have a 15-man roster, and that poses a problem as far as bringing him here.”
Dumars said it was not his intention to buy out the contracts of either Flip Murray or Primoz Brezec. So, unless a trade can be made, Webber is going to remain on the outside.
We’ve had variations of the Chris Webber debate several times over on this site, so feel free to skip the “should we?” opinions and focus on the “will we?” speculation in the comments. (Or not, the comments are your domain, feel free to re-hash to no end if that’s your thing. I’m just saying that the point of this post isn’t to open that can of worms, just to pass along the latest info.)
At first my gut feeling was, “well, if he’s in constant communication with Goodwin and is even taking calls from Webber, something must be cooking.” But the more I think about it, I’m not so sure. Yes, Murray and Brezec have expiring contracts, but those are just as valuable to Detroit as any other team.
I’ve kind of held a simplistic view that as soon as a team offered a pair of second-round picks, Murray would be out the door. But who’d make that deal? Not a team looking for cap relief (duh, you only get cap relief by dumping a bad contract, not trading picks that don’t actually cost anything), and probably not an actual contender (since Dumars most likely wouldn’t trade with an Eastern team and nobody in the West seems to be interested). I suppose Brezec has a touch more value simply because of his size/position, but it’s basically the same conundrum.
Since moving either player individually without getting an actual player back in return seems surprisingly difficult, I think the most likely scenario to open a spot is a 2-for-1 in which Detroit trades Murray and Brezec. But that’s more difficult than it sounds. The only teams who’d jump at that deal would be those looking to dump a long contract, but it doesn’t make sense for Detroit to take on a bad contract just to clear a spot as opposed to just buying out a deal.
The best-case (and least likely) scenario is Dumars pulling a 2-for-1 while duping a team into giving up a quality player with a respectable contract. (Murray and Brezec combine to make $4.64 million, and there are plenty of useful individual players at that pay grade.) Maybe it could happen — Dumars is a shark — but it’d take a team really, really desperate to clear room under the salary cap this summer to make it happen.
Or, maybe Dumars actually is willing to buyout one of those two guys at the last second and is merely putting on a front to encourage more trade offers. In hindsight, that’s probably the most likely option, which means I probably should have just pasted his quote and not wasted any time speculating any other possibilities.
Update: A. Sherrod Blakely spoke with Joe Dumars today (1/21):
“I had dialogue with Chris this afternoon,” Dumars said. “And what I expressed to him, is that we do not have a roster spot open. That has not changed. And if we were to have a roster spot open, we’d still have to have a conversation about role, minutes … and all those things.”
Dumars later added, “that situation hasn’t changed. It’s the same as it was a month ago, two months ago … it’s the same situation.”
For a guy who keeps saying the situation “hasn’t changed,” Dumars sure spends a lot of time chatting with C-Webb.
As much as it pains me to say, C-Webb would be a valuable BENCH addition. From what I have read Brezec and Flip arent doing much to earn their $$$
the only positive I can see from Webber is that maybe, just maybe he can play with Stuckey and take some of the pressure off and hit him with some nice passes as stuckey cuts to the basket
My problem with Webber is not his offense — but his defense
I agree, the only way we are going to get him is if he agrees to come off the bench with Maxiell and Stuckey. I think that would be great and it would be his best chance to win a ship.
Starting Lineup
C. Bill
R. Hamilton
T. Prince
A. Mcdyess
R. Wallace
Bench
R. Stuckey
A. Afflalo
J. Hayes
J. Maxx
C. Webb
Sounds and looks great. Plus mixing it up would be great too. Afflalo needs more playing time so I’m jocking for that as well.
C-webb is better than jason maxiell. He must sign e paly 30 min for game
whatever happens, if joe d. came from the shadows to reveal that bit of news to the world, something is up.
i want to call him Dr. D or something. like a bond villain. he just sits back in the shadows, occasionally hijacks the media to put forth a message, and the rest of the time plots the destruction of all who lay in our path.
not to say that anything will happen. he may just be doing this to help chris get his name in the papes and up his re-sale value a bit. i wouldn’t put it past him.
a little off topic but - watch for a Flip Murray to Orlando for J.J. Redick - going to happen soon
you heard it hear first
I was one of the most ardent anti-Webber people the last time we had this debate. I’ve come around, I think we could use him. This team has been painful to watch lately and I think Webb would be a positive addition to the bench at this point.
I think that there’s no question Joe would like to move Flip, he’s been totally eliminated from the rotation as both Afflalo and Hunter are better parts for this team. I don’t really think Joe is going to let the chance to add a useful piece to the puzzle pass by when he could simply buy Flip out. If he can’t move him, he’ll buy him out and add Webber.
I was anti-Webber too but he is an upgrade over Brezec and I can see him filling that role nicely.
And I can’t see JoeD trading Flip for Redick. Redick is useless. At least Flip has shown that he can score in this league and he’s had some moments where he’s filled in for Chauncey where he’s been great. Redick has done (and will do) nothing in this league.
What are you talking about Quick? Havnt you’ve seen the video they are trying to sell with Reddick teaching how too shoot a ball? They said he has the best stroke EVER. Seriously that video makes me laugh everytime I see it.
I’m with QD and Matt, I’d like to see Webber come in for Brezec. Both are big, can’t move well, but at least Webber has good hands and a high basketball IQ.
If C-Web doesn’t come back to Detroit, I wouldn’t mind seeing him go out west to the Mavs, I just don’t like the idea of him playing for Boston. Not so much because I fear he would hurt us on the court, but he would be another ‘chipless veteran that would add to the team’s appetite for a title.
Excluding an unexpected early round exit by either Boston or Detroit, both will be in the Conference finals. Both are capable of winning and Boston will most likely have homecourt. That series will come down to who wants it more. Adding Webber into Boston’s roster will help to sharpen their focus.
For me, as long as it’s not Boston, I don’t care where Webber goes. I do agree with Kyle, Dumars doesn’t just make a statement like this unless there’s something behind it. Matt asked us in the article to concentrate on whether or not we think C-Web will return to Detroit, not if we want him to. While I don’t really have a preference either way at this time, I do believe he’ll be back as a Piston. If not, then he’ll go to Dallas. That’s my guess.
Now as for the current roster, here’s to hoping they pull off a win in Orlando tonight and get this engine running again.
Correction: If I had to choose between Brezec and Webber, then I’m taking Webber, so I guess that’s my preference and I do care somewhat. I really don’t see either player making or breaking our season.
I vote for C-Webb to comeback, he would do a nice job of fitting in, on and off court, and would be a better sub with Stuckey and the second unit. Joe has to move Brezec, and Flip has to play Hermman more, especially with Jarvis being inconsistent. Both of them are proven talents, let them battle it out for more mins. And i have a feeling that Murrays experience is a little better than Afflalo and his inexperience, off to the D-League, if Murray can’t be moved, of course.
WLM1, I must respectfully disagree with “I really don’t see either player making or breaking our season.” With all the Man-crushes on Amir it would seem that anything that will help him learn and develope will (a) benefit the Pistons this year and (b) get him some PT. Which brings me to Mr. Webber, Webber will most certianly have an affect on our season, coming off the bench as a backup 5 and as a teacher for ALL of our young bigs, under Webber’s tutelage, Amir will learn how to play inside-out basketball…a skill very few in the NBA have, Webber, Duncan, KG and to a minor extent Rasheed are excellent at playing inside-out basketball, Amir will have the opportunity to learn this aspect of the game, the art of passing and how to penetrate a zone (Stuckey may benefit from this as well), among many many other “little things”. I see Webber rejoining the Pistons as soon as Stuckey “gets his rythm” and Hunter goes to the front office (hence the shortened bench rotation), Flip and Brezec are not going anywhere this season, Brezec give us 6 fouls for KG, Howard, Bosh, or maybe Lebron and Flip gives us another guard “just in case” and he is NOT an offensive liabilty I don’t particularly care for him at PG, but I think he is an effective 2 guard.
I think the “Joe coming out of the shadows” is extremely insightful analysis that I wouldn’t have thought about without the aid of the DBB community. At the end of the day, I don’t actually see Webber being a Piston. Just sort of an instinctual guess really. I think Joe is a very patient man. This current slump is no big deal, unless it continues. It continues, Webber time. I’m banking on the fact it doesn’t continue and Joe chooses not to shake things up by bringing in Webber. Flip has enough capable players to manage right now, Webber would certainly make things harder on Flip controlling a solid rotation.
Ladies and gentlemen, I am very distraught to have the dubious distinction of breaking this news, but our favorite Celtic, Kendrick Perkins is lighting up MSG with 22 points at the end of the first half against the Knicks. That is not a typo.
The annoying thing about C-Webb (if he comes back) is where the hell was he for the last 6 months? Like, why can he sit on the couch and eat Doritos while the players put in all the work, and then just show up and be like, “Hey guys, pass the rock! I’m open!” If I were one of the new guys on the Pistons I’d have a chip on my shoulder if Webber came back, and work my ASS off to show him up. It’s like Riley showing up halfway through the Heat’s season as a “closer” and taking them to the championship. What about the first half of the season?
Re DJ’s thoughts: Hunter is on this team for the rest of the season. The office is waiting for him next season (I’m so excited to see if Lindsey can be a great executive). We’re certainly not going to buy out the contract of the most tenacious defender we have. He will be back in the rotation come the playoffs. If we’re getting Webber, it will be at the expense of (most likely) Flip Murray, and/possibly or Primoz Brezec. Flip Murray has the most talent of the non-playing reserves and is the most expendable on this guard-loaded (well, everywhere loaded, really) roster. I could definitely see us waiving Murray in favor of Webber, I just don’t think it will happen. I know we’re not supposed to re-hash too much, but I’m still a little wary of such a move (see my previous post in this thread) but not strongly opposed.
I understand the caution about distinguishing between “should we” and “will we.” But the questions are somewhat related. The stronger a case that can be made for “we should,” the more likely it is that “we will,” even given the very real practical considerations in making moves that were (very usefully) listed above.
Let’s face it: 11 games ago, the Pistons were cruising, the bench was looking much better, and the idea of making any big moves was mostly limited to “gee, maybe we could get something useful for Flip Murray, given that he has some skills and isn’t playing.” But now, the Pistons have gone 6-5 in their last 11 and the bench has played pretty darn badly. Detroit has shown for the past two years that it can’t even get to the Finals with a non-producing bench.
That’s not to say anybody should panic now, but it does mean Joe D. Detroit should be thinking about a “Plan B” more than he was a couple of weeks ago.
Pistons Nation has a story up about Artest having interest in Detroit. Kind of an interesting piece with what Artest has to say and how PN addresses the issue.
On an OT side note, I’m watching Pacers-Sixers and Jason Smith has the intimidating presence around the basket only matched by Primoz Brezec (please tell me that you detected the sarcasm already). Shawne Williams and Ike Diogu both just posterized him on back-to-back Pacers possessions. I’m a big fan of Ike Diogu, and undecided on Shawne Williams, but neither is above 6′9″, and Jason Smith is 7′0″. This is what passes for a twentieth pick in today’s NBA? Really? Pathetic.
As per ESPN’s trade machine, we can’t move Brezec with any other player until February 14th, two months after the Mohammed/Brezec-Herrmann trade. This may not be accurate, as it relates only to salary cap issues Detroit may not be facing. So we can’t do a 2 for 1 including Brezec until after the 14th…
There are some 14 and even 13 man rosters out there (Memphis, the latter). Should Memphis, for example, make a move on Gasol and still have a hole to fill at the 1 or the 5 spot, we could move Flip or Primoz there for future draft picks…
LB: thanks for pointing that post from PN out — I saw that Artest quote this weekend and meant to get something up.
Matt: My pleasure. You can actually thank PN indirectly for making sure I saw it. I basically only commit my energy to DBB, but PN added me as a friend (I hate to say “friended”, such a weird colloquialism to me) on myspace and I bit. I saw their bulletin about the article and ended up checking out the entire article. I’m glad I did as I find it a very fascinating issue.
Again OT, but Washington put the boots to the Mavs today, 102-84. The Wizards are 7-3 in their last 10 (the first of said games was a loss to the Stones), including the home-and-home sweep of the Celtics and they have moved into 4th in the East, and 1.5 games out of 3rd. They play at Cleveland, another really hot team (8-2 in their past ten and one game behind the Wiz), on Wednesday night in what should be a really worthwhile matchup.
Apparently I have too much free time on my hands as a result of having work off to celebrate the life and legacy of the wonderful Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Here are a few RealGM trades that work. These trades say nothing good or bad about the players involved but they all clear a roster spot, work with the cap, and make semi-sense in the real world.
F. Murray & A. Afflalo to LAL for SF Trevor Ariza
J. Hayes, F. Murray & P. Brezac to LAC for PG Sam Cassell
F. Murray, W. Herrmann & P. Brezac to SEA for PF/C Kurt Thomas
A. Afflalo & C. Samb to MEM for SF/PF Hakim Warrick
P. Brezac to PHI for PF S. Randolph & SF Rodney Carney
It should also be noted Matt that the Pistons can’t trade Primoz until 2/14 according to RealGM’s Trade Machine. The same is true.
Keeping that in mind, if Webber really is going to sign with a team in the next week, then the only way he signs with the Pistons is to have Joe D. buy out Flips contract.
If I’m Joe D, I would do everything I could to keep Webber waiting and see if there is anything he can get for a Primoz/Flip 2 for 1.
But my guess is that if Webber is going to play in Boston or play in Detroit, that Dumars will buy out Flip’s contract to keep Webber from playing in Boston.
Could Boston use a player like Flip Murray though?
Oh and there’s no way we trade Flip for Reddick. Reddick is rarely used, whereas Flip would be a solid addition to a Magic team that has the 3rd spot in the east.
Scratch that Philly trade. I don’t know what I was thinking. It was half a joke (Hooray! We got Shav Randolph!) and half serious but I forget the point of the serious part and the trade stupidly adds a player instead of subtracting one. Sorry Primoz. I like you anyway and hope you stay.
Joejoejoe,
Like your thinking but got a couple of questions for you regarding your trade scenarios:
Trade 1) This is really the only trade I’d want to do, and thats just because I think a good SF that has a different style than Jarvis Hayes, is the only thing we REALLY need.
Trade 2) We don’t need Sam Cassell unless Joe D. is going to all of a sudden decide that Stuckey will not play PG in the NBA but SG…which won’t happen.
Trade 3) Not sure how many years Kurt has left on his contract, but agian, with Cheikh in the NBDL and a lotta upside, and Maxiell assumingly getting better next year, I don’t see how Kurt really helps us all that much…especially if the main reason for making a trade is to clear up room for C-Webb. Although it would obviously give us a lot more depth inside.
Trade 4) I’d rather not get rid of Afflalo and Samb for Hakim Warrick who has dropped off from last year with his numbers.
Trade 5) If we’re looking to clear space on the team for C-Webb, why would we do a 1 for 2 trade? I also find it hard to believe that there is anyone in the NBA that deserves to play for the Pistons that would get here with another player being traded for Primoz of all Pistons. Primoz barely deserves to play for the Pistons. If it weren’t for his crazy out of bounds dives, and his endless support for the starters and bench players from the bench, he’d be right out the door.
DJ, I totally agree that Webber would provide a great atmosphere for the younger players, especially Amir as you pointed out. What I meant was, I don’t see C-Web being the guy that gets us to the finals. I think the pieces are there with our startes and bench, they just need more time to utilize their abilities. I’m not sold on the idea that Amir needs another big vet to help him evolve his game. He needs playing time to do that.
As for Brezec, I understand needing a big man to give out fouls, but at least with Webber, you have a big that can create some offense if needed. Brezec has no offensive ability against the defenders in this league. As for basketball IQ, I’m not sure Brezec has much. Sure, it’s great to see a guy dive after loose balls during a blowout, but what if he were to injure himself while displaying that type of hustle. I like players that let their heads guide their hearts while they play, not the other way around.
Truthfully, I’d just never feel comfortable with Brezec on the floor during a tight game.
Toldeo Joe, that’s an interesting thought you expressed in regards to your comments on Joe D’s mindstate a couple of weeks ago compared to now. I wouldn’t worry though, I’m sure Joe D has thought out plan B and is worrying about plan C by now.
LB, those Wizards, as much I detest them, are impressing me with some of the wins they’ve been collecting. How many other teams will be able to claim a season sweep of the Mavs and two wins over Boston? With or without Gilbert, I’d like to see Boston have to play them in the early rounds of the playoffs.
James B. - Scratch the Philly trade (#5). See my comment above.
1) Ariza’s got 1 year left on his deal and a broken foot. LA saves the cap space for next year.
2) Cassell has zero years left on his deal so his money clears next year. I figure LAC would rather give Hayes and Brezac a chance to win jobs than play Cassell in meaningless games. Cassell is very good in the playoffs and I think he’s big enough to allow Chauncey to play some SG alongside him in a small backcourt which solves a lot of rotation problems.
3) Kurt Thomas’s contract is done this year. I think Kurt Thomas helps against Dwight Howard, Kevin Garnett, and even LeBron James (on drives to the hoop) in the playoffs.
4) Hakim Warrick’s got one year left. I thought he was a cheap backup for next year ala Jarvis Hayes, it clears a spot and Warrick plays a similar style to Tayshaun so I thought he would fit in well.
The fact that Joe D. is talking to C-Webb confirms the Pistons’ interest in acquiring him before the trade deadline. I think it’s a done deal he’ll be in Pistons uniform this season. Welcome back C-Webb!
I think that, given the recent play of the bigs, Webber will probably be signed.
Ironically, I’ve always thought that Artest-to-Detroit was destiny after the brawl.
Jason is only a phYsical player, he can’t pass the ball, he can’t score without dunk. Sign c-webb PLEASE!!!
I think Webber at first as a NO for the Pistons because he’s too old and his defense is not there. But come to think of it, and the way the Pistons are playing today, having lost three games, in which the Zoo Crew not playing well, he might be a good addition to the team. We all know Stuckey is good, but he’s still a rookie. He’s gonna make some mistakes and errors. But if you insert Webber at the center position, that will take some pressure off Stuckey because of C-Webb’s playmaking and passing skills. I know that his defense is not so good, but still you have guys that can defend well with him, Afflalo and Maxiell. So i think it will not be a problem anymore. Because what you want from the bench is production and good minutes of hustle and defense. With the lineup of Stuckey, Afflalo, Hayes, Maxiell and Webber, it will be a fun to watch. Another thing to point out is that Webber can also be inserted to the starting lineup depending on occassions.
Andrrew, read this:
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2008-01-18/fun-with-hot-spots/
See Jason’s shot placement and performance. He has a strong jumper. Also, averaging nearly an assist per game in 30 minutes this season is on par with most bigs.
Yes, Maxiell is physical dynamite- he’s energy we NEED off the bench. But it is foolish to call his game one dimensional, which is essentially what you’re doing.
The only time Maxiell turns one dimensional on the offensive side of the ball is when he is forced to make things happen for himself, (like create turnovers, grabbing offenisve boards, ect.) When the team can set-up a play for him on a mid-range jumper he will most likely knock it down.
I also can’t score without dunk.
Anyone have an opinion about these two articles?
http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080122/SPORTS03/80122067/1051
and, http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080122/OPINION03/801220342/1127
That being said, I gotta go with Rosenberg’s side of it. Partially because I believe a lot of it is over playing time, and how Webber behaved during the playoffs, and partially because I can’t believe Parker gets paid to be a sports columnist. To my mind, there’s like this irrebuttable presumption of inaccuracy whenever he writes something, it’s that bad.
i only read the rosenberg article, but here are my thoughts on it. not only do i think it’s telling that he hasn’t signed with the pistons yet, i think it’s telling he hasn’t signed with anyone yet. if he had a real offer from any other legitimately contending team (mavs, celts, suns, spurs) he’d have signed already. i wouldn’t be surprised if the lakers offered him a contract, but he knows they’re not really contenders.
Y’all know where I stand on this: bring him in, bring him off the bench. It’s a no brainer. Sorry, but that’s a fact, like the sky is blue and taxes suck. Do it.
I am going to miss C-Webb, the greatest and most creative passing center I’ve ever seen from the high post position. I admit Webber is a dinosaur. This is 2008, the old give and go or back door cuts are relics of the past. Besides, you can’t expect Billups to share the ball or Rasheed to cover for Chris’ bumm knees. When the Pistons fizzle out in May/June, nobody will be able to scapegoat Webber. Meanwhile, I’ll go watch some old Sacremento Kings tapes to remind myself how offensive basketball should be played.