“I don’t owe you or Rip anything”

You owe Rip a championship.

“I don’t know what Ray Allen you’ve been watching all year.”

The one who takes jump shots… and may get to the rack once more per game than rip per season, at best.

“I didn’t realize posting a different thought process could ever generate some 7 paragraph ramblefest of trying to prove things that I already know.”

We love you Boney, you’re a core member of this community, your opinion is gold here. Maybe your idea isn’t crazy here, it might hold a little water. The issue is that the rest of us aren’t ready to sell Rip upstream for the failings that can’t be placed on his shoulders. He IS the Pistons, just as much as Chauncey, and moreso than anyone else not in our starting backcourt. Essentially, what you’re calling for is sacrilege to most of us.

On the subject MP brought up of Monta Ellis/Kevin Martin … I think I would probably grab Kevin Martin over Rip with the youth factor being the determining factor, as without it, I’d stick with Rip. Of the three, Rip is the consummate teammate who can score and pass. He’s a great defender too (though I think Ellis might be as good though shorter), and he makes his free throws. Martin, to me, is clearly the most dynamic scorer (with Ellis behind him then Rip). He’s not the type of guy you want with the ball in his hands if he’s not going to try to put it up though. Martin is an okay defender and he too makes his FTs. Ellis doesn’t make his FTs, but he does have an edge over Rip in his varied scoring skills and higher “big game scoring total” ceiling. Monta is also the smallest of the three in height by a lot. I think a lot of our defense is about length. Golden State doesn’t seem to play much grind-it-out defense so here works better there. I like the new K-Mart, but I’d also be sad to see Rip go.

This team would be better off with a guy that can create his own shot, and go to the free throw line. I realize the offense is a series of screens and picks to get Rip open, I’m not an idiot. I know the reason they run him like that is to tire out the guy who’s checking him.

Pardon my outside the box line of thought… perhaps I’m the only one who isn’t satisfied with 7 consecutive 50 win seasons and conference finals appearances. I didn’t realize posting a different thought process could ever generate some 7 paragraph ramblefest of trying to prove things that I already know.

MikePayne, I wouldn’t take Monta Ellis over Rip… I might take Kevin Martin though.

By the way, why is Portland referred to as PDX?

Here’s my two cents:

Any criticism or praise you make of an individual player needs be tempered by an acknowledgment that what the Pistons are, above all else, is a team that relies on a contribution from each player. These are players who have proven to be incredibly unselfish over the past five years. Any of these guys, on an average team, would be a second option at worst. In Detroit, they do it like the sandbox: they share. But that means the team must function as a whole in order to work correctly. So they have these stretches where shit goes wrong. They play well, everyone’s happy and we’re going to win championships (see Phoenix game comments). Things get a little out of whack, and even though it might be a small problem, they look awful, can’t shoot, pass the ball or rebound for a game or two. Then we should blow the team up while we still can and start rebuilding. The unfortunate thing is that the dry spells have come at the wrong times for Detroit (and one can argue that Flip’s coaching factors in– dude can’t seem to make the needed adjustments in crunch time, and I don’t know if anyone thinks that he can be a motivational-type coach).

The truth is somewhere in the middle. The Pistons are a good team that might have been, and might still be, great. But championships take luck, too. If it were just talent, then the Lakers would have beaten us in ‘04 and we would have beaten Cleveland last year before losing to the Spurs. It’s not just the better team, though. It’s who’s (everybody together now, you know the cliche) hot at the right time.

Let’s keep our fingers crossed. Oh, and a KG injury wouldn’t hurt (not that I wish that on the guy, but…)

Back to Rip, his consistency and his D are unreal. I still cannot think of another SG in our conference, let alone the league, that i’d put in his place. Only two come to mind that I’d consider: Monta Ellis and Kevin Martin. Ellis can’t shoot the three ball though.

Even if you gave me the choice to pick between Hamilton and either of those two, I couldn’t turn my back on Hamilton easily. He’s ingrained in Detroit’s team, playbook and image.

Would anyone else take Ellis or Martin for Rip? (aside from Boney, that is, I already know your answer)

Uh Boney, there’s so much wrong with what you said, allow me some time here. “Ray Allen” and “drive to the hoop” should never be in the same sentence unless the word “doesn’t” joins those two phrases together. I give a hat tip to Kevin S. (whom I NEVER agree with) for pointing that our earlier in the thread. He’s right, plain and simple.

Also Boney, you’re totally hyping up Tay as some ridiculous offensive stud (as you did in this game where you got ill-advised kudos from Rob G.) while ignoring the fact he goes ICE cold from the field in anywhere from 1 to every 3-5 games. Rip is generally the model of FG% and scoring production consistency. Yes, he has a scoring ceiling, but if he plays in a game he can be counted on to get the job done on both sides because of his superior conditioning. I’ll take that anyday. And clearly you have a very warped perception in talking about Tay playing better D & O in concert. I mean, I suppose it’s true that when his defensive assignment sucks he plays good O, but that’s the only time he gets both done together.

Look at Tay’s offensive production v. defense production when we’ve played Orlando, the Nets and the Celtics this season. When Tay plays a scoring SF (as in Pierce, Turkoglu, Jefferson, etc.), his offense almost always suffers greatly cuz he busts his ass on D and keeps them to their average or below (only Turkoglu averaged .5 ppg above his season average on Tay of those 3, the rest were held solidly below their season average this year against us). Tay doesn’t have enough in the tank to play effective O when he works hard on D. You can basically count on him going absent on O if his defensive assignment is scoring around 20/ppg.

And on that note Boney, last time I checked, Wilson Chandler (who I think started at SF last night, cuz Lee was probably the PF) or Q. Richardson (who usually starts at SF for the Knicks) ain’t scoring nothing to make Tay work on D. Sorry Boney (and to a lesser extent Rob G), the Knicks game is no indicator on defensive/offensive production from Tay.

Onto Rip, who may not put his man in foul trouble, but I wouldn’t really make him the focal point of a Pistons team-wide problem. Rip is tied for 3rd on the team in FTA/game, having as many as Tay. Sheed has one less attempt than them. Dice has less than Sheed and Stuckey too. And not so surprisingly, Maxiell off the bench, is 2nd behind Chauncey who blows out anyone on the Pistons in FTA/game. Long story short, we are VERY average in getting to the line. Cut and dry, you want to make it a problem? Blame the team (outside of Chauncey and Max), don’t single out Rip.

In REALITY Boney, if you look at FTA/game leaders in the NBA (I don’t think anyone tracks “fouls drawn”, so this is the best indicator we have) it’s fairly evenly dispersed between SGs (and SG-style players like: Arenas, LeBron, Carmelo, etc.) and post guys. Most of the leaders, also coincidentally play for good teams too (Howard, LeBron and AI are 1,2,3). I would say this proves that it’s not like it is Rip’s “responsibility” and that it is instead just some wild proclamation you’ve made that’s lacking in evidence.

And QD, as always, is right when he points out Rip makes his counterpart work hard on D. Did I not just mention (with statistical evidence) how much of an effect it has on Tay? It can have an effect on plenty of players; it is an asset. And IsraeliPiston is right when talking about Rip’s D also a huge part of what makes him so worthwhile.

I think I’ve said enough, I know I’m pretty exhausted after this post. Maybe I’ll go take a nap. A mea culpa would be nice Boney, but address it to Rip, not me.

And it’s not just Rip’s movement, it’s also the picks. It’s about making the defense work. Making the screener’s man jump out on Rip, so Sheed and Dyess can pop or Maxiell can roll to the basket. I rather have Sheed down low setting picks for Rip than up at the top doing pick and roll with Chauncey and shooting threes.

Also, there’s a lot less ball movement when Tay backs down his man for fifteen seconds.

We won a Championship with the offense that LB designed with these players (minus Ben, plus Dyess) and Rip’s movement as the focal point.

My problem with Rip is that no matter how many points he scores, he does not put his man in foul trouble, and usually it’s the SG that is the primary offensive weapon on the opposing team. If he could do that, then it would cause a mismatch between him and Tay and the offense would be even more difficult to stop