If you ever jump out of your RSS reader and read the comments on this site, chances are you’ve come across Boney. Hell, if you read the comments section of any NBA blog, chances are you’ve come across Boney. And if you have, you know he’s not afraid to out on a limb with an off-the-wall opinion. He tries to explain one of those below. Obviously, these are his opinions, not mine.
(Note: this was written before Game 1 of the Magic series.)
By: Boney
I’ve taken a lot of heat over the course of the last year or so (between the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals and now) regarding my thoughts on current Detroit Piston shooting guard, Richard Hamilton. My thoughts and words have been met with great defense and anger from fellow Piston fans and even UConn alums. You guys have to realize one thing though: I did not like Michael Jordan, and being from the Washington DC area I do not like the Washington teams. So you ask yourself, “Boney, what does your dislike for MJ and Washington have to do with Richard Hamilton?”.
Fast forward to 1:57…
That’s reason #1 why I don’t like Richard Hamilton. Hamilton was in his 3rd year in the league when he began emulating an aging Michael Jordan. He did the fist pump, he missed the 3 pointers just like MJ, and his dunks barely scraped over the rim just like MJ’s. A small forward at UConn, Rip was put in the shooting guard position with the Washington Wizards where shot a very “Larry Hughes” like 42%, 43%, and 43% from the field during his tenure with the Wizards yet he carried himself as if he was something special.
When he was traded to Detroit for Jerry Stackhouse and a plate of scraps I wasn’t excited. I thought the combination of Chauncey Billups with Jerry Stackhouse and the rest of the bench would give the Pistons one of the better backcourts in the league, even though Billups had only proven his value in the 1 year in Minnesota before signing for the MLE to become Detroit’s starting PG under Rick Carlisle.
Hamilton surprised me with his ability to come off screens and improve his shooting % 4 or 5 points by simply getting more open looks off the screens. You hardly ever see a guy improve his % while still shooting the same shots, but Hamilton did. Kudos to him, right?
When I watch other teams in the NBA, that have beat out Detroit for an NBA title in recent years though I see a shooting guard on the floor that has the ability to dribble the ball and take it to the rack. I’ve discussed my concerns with this current Piston team with Matt, and my main concern is the fact that now with Ben Wallace gone, we are so balanced on offense that we have watched this team go from having “go to guys” to now “anyone can kill you at anytime”. Where does Richard Hamilton create a problem in this equation? He’s the one whose offensive game is so reliant on people setting him up for his shots.
Ben Wallace used to set crushing picks 2 and 3 times a possession to get Hamilton looks on those curls or step back midrange jumpers. Now with Antonio McDyess and Rasheed all viable options on the offensive end, these big men are constantly looking for the pass that is going to come from Billups who distributes the ball to the player in the best position to score. With Wallace, he never touched the ball on offense so the 3 other guys moved without the ball and Chauncey distributed it.
With the Heat you had Dwyane Wade, with the Spurs Manu killed us in ‘05, with the Cavs it was LeBron who created advantages that his teammates abused Detroit on. With the Spurs it’s Tony Parker also who can get to the rack with relative ease and dish out to Brent Barry who isn’t going to be anyone’s first option on offense, or even Bruce Bowen. Every team in the league has a guy who can take the ball to the rack with reckless abandon playing the SG or SF position, including Detroit (Rodney Stuckey).
Basketball is about creating mismatches, and Detroit does as good a job as any team in creating mismatches. Just imagine though if a Corey Maggette or a Manu Ginobili came off the bench for Detroit while Arron Afflalo started at the SG position. Our bench does not have players who have killer instincts yet on the offensive side of the ball, so when Maxiell, Amir, Stuckey, Ratliff, etc come in, they need a guy who can fill it up when they can’t. Detroit 4 core guys without Rip can score almost at will on anyone, when their minds are in the game. We saw it the first few games of the year when Tayshaun was playing lights out with Rip out. Detroit’s starting 5 are used to playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end of the court, it’s why the Spurs have been successful and it’s why Detroit won in 04 and made it to the Finals in 05. They shut down a guy for the opposing team, and the “defensive specialist” hustled and set picks and cleaned up the glass on offense.
This is why I propose that Detroit trade Richard Hamilton. I love his aggressiveness, I don’t mind his technical fouls, but he’s too aggressive for his abilities. He’s not the best ball handler, actually I feel he’s one of the worst ball handlers at his position in the NBA. He’s whistled for more carries and palming violations than anyone I’ve seen. He isn’t effective at the jab step before he dribbles, he’s often called for a traveling violation because he moves his pivot foot. At the end of quarters and halves I cringe when he calls for the ball at mid-court to run a last second play, because he cannot create his own shot.
Hamilton played great in Games 5 and 6 for this team. I felt like an ass for calling him a “b*tch” during Game 4, so for that I apologize. So I’ll eat crow for that… But remember…
Larry Hughes can score 16-20 points a night shooting 42% just like Hamilton did with the Wizards, and we know how much Hughes sucks. Hamilton is a product of the system in Detroit (see: Kurt Warner in St. Louis, Trent Green in Kansas City, etc). His value is at an all time high right now, and that’s why I propose to trade him this offseason. With several big names coming up in free agency AFTER next season, now is the time to groom Stuckey and Afflalo to step up in year 2 of their 3 year rookie contract to prove whether or not they’re going to make it. Sheed will be a free agent after next season, and dumping Hamilton’s contract will free up $20m+ in salary going into the period in which names like LeBron, DWade, etc will all be free agents. I’m not saying I want those guys, but look at that list and tell me there aren’t guys on there in their 20’s that you wouldn’t want to have on this team to play alongside with, and lead, this young group of studs we have sitting on our bench.
Nice vid.
Boney, I can see your point in regards to Rip, I just happen to like what he brings to the team. If he was traded then I would hope that Joe gets something damn good in return (Arenas) because thats 20ppg that is pretty valuable.
As for eating crow, I still don’t know what that means
Boney, thank you for fleshing out my suspicions. I’ve long known that I don’t like Rip’s game, and I’ve thought for a while that we should move him to get something in return, but I never pinned it down exactly. I think that you hit the nail on the head, though.
You leave out one consideration: Rip makes a reasonable salary for a starting 2. The real reason Hughes kills your team is that he makes twice what he’s worth. Rip makes the right amount, and to the extent that he is limited (spot-on comments about his ball handling; I cringe when he’s running a break) he is paid less than the likes of Hughes and Jason Richardson, freeing up money for other solid players.
While the Pistons were sucking against Philly I came up with the following on the Trade Checker at Real GM…
Chauncey + Rip to Phoenix for Steve Nash + Raja Bell
Chauncey + Rip to Houston for T-Mac + Chuck Hayes
…but then I got over my bitterness and said Go Pistons!
when rip gets out of his game and tries to handle the ball too much he sucks, absolutely no doubt about it.
but when he’s on, he very quietly (and usually quite easily) scores 20pts and gets 5 assists a game.
chauncey wouldn’t have half the assists or assist to turnver ratio he has if it weren’t for rip hamilton. (i’ve always felt that I could get at least 4 assists per game, just passing to rip on the curl)
Rip has his problems, but to me he’s just as flawed as anyone else on the team, and unlike others, his problems are usually easily corrected. If Chauncey is off, he’s off and you can’t do much about it. Same with Tay. Once Sheed’s head is gone, it’s really hard to get it back. But when Rip plays stupid like that it should be easy for a coach to pull him, repeat the words “Run, Catch, Shoot” over and over again and he should be fixed. God, if only so little maintenance could help Chuancey or Tay when they’re playing poorly.
Yakking endlessly about why a guy should be traded is meaningless unless you set a price for him. Tell me who the Pistons get back in return, and we can have a discussion.
I’m not against trading Rip. He is the most hotheaded of the Pistons, often taking too much on himself. But it’s hard to find a better player at the price, largely BECAUSE he doesn’t drive for fancy dunks or shoot a million 3s. His limits keep him from being another overpriced SG. So if we trade him, we’ll probably take on a new set of limitations. If that fits within the team’s framework, fine.
If I begin to throw out names for him, then I’ll appear to either a: be a blind homer or b: think not enough about the guy’s abilities.
I’ve said it before, I’d trade him for a guard off the bench and a 1st round pick or two. His value is enough to return a 1st rounder or two.
I do like the intro Matt… My “off the wall opinions” turned into fact this past winter when I said openly “I wonder if Detroit offered Andrew Miller and Maybin if we could get Miguel Cabrera”
They got him… and it was like 2 months before the trade happened.
When I’ve seen these comments, I generally mention the only two SGs that I think wouldn’t be a loss from a rip trade. Monta Ellis and Kevin Martin. Monta is a restricted free agent after this season (as is Golden State’s Andris Biedrins, who I would want even more than Ellis). Kevin Martin, on the other hand, is signed through 2013.
Otherwise, there is pretty much no one in the league that a) we can afford and b) could end up an improvement over Rip.
@Laughton: I would absolutely not want Arenas on our team. If I knew he was going to be healthy throughout his contract, there’d be no question. But his knees are too much of a gamble, and I don’t even think Kander could magic them back to health.
@joejoejoe: Trading our starting backcourt is pretty much insane. We can’t ship out our team’s identity and expect a star and a scrub to will us back to contention. Besides, whether Rip is flawed or not, the tandem of Billups and Hamilton is the top starting backcourt in the entire league.
Whether or not Hamilton stays, which at this point is only blog-based conjecture, I want Billups and Rasheed to retire in Detroit. Hopefully Prince too.
Should we trade Rip, we may not aim to bring in a top SG in his place. We might want to aim for a) a true center (Biedrins) or b) someone solid to backup Tayshaun. Although I wouldn’t mind signing Herrmann for a few more years, but I’ve already made my case for that.
No. No. No. Let’s look at all the good things Boney left out or quickly dismissed about Rip because Boney’s (admittedly) predisposed to be against Rip. Rip was the 27th best free throw shooter in the league this season while matching the lowest percentage he ever shot as a Piston (he shot 83.3% before in his first season with us, 2002-2003). The twenty-seventh best free-throw shooter at worst, shooting almost three full percentage points less than last year? Damn, I’ll take it.
How about Rip finishing fourth in three-pointing shooting percentage this season since dedicating himself to improving it in the off-season (That’s fact, check DBB archives highlighting it, video of Rip talking about it should exist)? That work ethic (and production) isn’t good enough? Okay, fine. Boney rips him for being “Larry Hughes like” regarding his shooting percentage (a career 45.5% shooter is not the same as a 41% shooter), but last I checked, Rip has never averaged below 44% shooting as a Piston (system or not, effective is effective) and shot 48.5% this season, good enough to make him Top 10 or 15 among guards (depending on who you consider a guard). Can we consider that while Chauncey’s free throw shooting has been spotty (82.2% for Chauncey is quite bad) during the playoffs, Rip is hitting 91.3%. Since it’s a what have you done for me lately league, I remind you that it’s the same story last season (Rip - 86.5% Chauncey - 83.2%).
Long story short, Boney’s not eating crow, because he still tries to maintain that he has good reason to hate Rip (because early in his career while playing with him, he emulated the best ever? Really, that’s your criteria? Lame). He offers no apology. He tries to tear Rip a new one for not creating his own shot, when the Pistons have routinely dispatched plenty of teams in the past few years with SGs who do create their own shot. He tries to argue that McDyess and Sheed are too busy looking for the ball to set picks like Ben could (absurd, team ball is team ball). His argument is paper thin, and MP is right in saying that given the reasonable contract and considerable talent Rip carries the only legitimate upgrades that a case could even be made for are Ellis and Martin (with a large part of the case based on age as opposed to sheer ability). Get off it, Boney.
My screenwriting mentor was working on a project for Rick Fox when the Pistons traded Stack for Rip. He skeptically asked old Foxy, “I don’t know, is that a good trade?”
Fox thought it was huge for the Pistons. “You can stop a scorer but you can’t stop a shooter.”
QD: +10. That is the quote of the day. Fucking awesome.
*Seconds MP’s motion.
I did kind of glaze over the good, while writing about the bad didn’t I? But I also stated that a 42, 43 and 43% is Hughes-like, not the 3-5 point improvement since joining the Pistons.
Hamilton is a product of the system LB, plain and simple. Sure, he improved his 3 point shooting ability (he still isn’t a real threat behind the line aside from his % because he doesn’t take that many), but he never has improved his shaky ball handling ability that in my opinion has kept him from becoming a top 10 player in the league.
He needs Detroit more than Detroit needs him. Others on the team could go to other teams and basically provide almost a carbon copy of what they do for Detroit, except Rip. If/when Rip is not running off screens set by others, he is not effective (Game 1 76ers). His defense is average, at best. His mouth has by far put him in front of Rasheed for irresponsible technical fouls called.
“we have regularly dispatched teams that have guards that can create their own shot”, OH RLY? 05 Spurs, 06 Heat, 07 Cavs, scraped by the Lakers this year once and got smoked another, etc. Stuckey is the future of this team, and it’s not going to take Billups’ entire 5 year contract for Stuckey to finally get some PT. We run the risk of losing the talent we have by keeping the old guard around a year or 3 too long.
I’m eating crow because I said he sucks during the 6ers series, only to have him shoot lights out in the final game and be a reason we won. I still don’t like the guy, I don’t think he’s the best this team can do. When we were 4 on 5 on the offensive end, we were at our best. Now, sure it’s “team ball” but this whole “anyone can kill you” goes out the door when no other team in the league has as balanced a starting 5 as Detroit’s.
“Anyone can kill you” while Rip is shooting 4 of 17 or when Billups has 8 turnovers trying to make passes that just aren’t there…
Boney, I agree wholeheartedly that a steady infusion of Stuckey in the immediate future is necessary to improve the Pistons, but not necessarily at the majority expense of Rippy. SRSLY Boney, Kobe hasn’t scored 20 against us in three of the last four meetings we’ve had with LA, and the Pistons are 3-1 in such meetings (In interest of full disclosure: when Kobe scored 39, the Lakers lost. They won convincingly this year at home when he scored 19). Plus, in the Finals, the Lakers wouldn’t last more than six against us, mark it. Point is, a create-his-own-shot shooting guard does not necessarily a better player than Rip make.
I think we can all agree that Rip is better than Willie Green, and we waxed his own-shot-creating behind. It’s not the key to everything to have a swingman who creates his own shot. Our formula works for us. If it’s not broke, I’m not going to fix it. Hell, as mortal as they look right now, don’t forget that regular season dominating Boston has the original jump shot-only SG in Ray Allen. We’re just fine, and part of the reason we are, is because we have Rip busting his ass every night and earning every cent of his modest (by NBA All-Star standards) paycheck.
modest? isn’t he making over $10m?
He’s earning his check, by no means is he a max player no matter what he says when he opts out of his deal (I think after next season).
Mike Payne - I’m not suggesting any of the above trades are good ideas, I’m just saying what kind of trade works with an equal cap number.
Boney, I never said he was a max player. He’s clearly not a max player, but you don’t need a max player at SG to win a title or you don’t need to be a max player to be worth keeping and worthy of praise.
For your information, here’s a little contract research (limited mostly to SGs or pseudo SGs, with a couple non swingmen sprinkled in for perspective) proving the deal is modest. Please, do tell me if you’re upset with Rip’s 7 year/$62 million deal (approx. $9 mil./year with escalating pay, ends in 2010, but he can opt out this summer) in light of these deals:
Ray Allen: 5 years - $80 million (ends in 2010)
Joe Johnson: 5 years - $70 million (ends in 2010)
Michael Redd: 6 years - $90 million (ends in 2011)
Vince Carter: 5 years - $78 million (ends in 2012, with that year being a team option)
Wally Szczerbiak: 6 years - $65 million (ends in 2009)
Shawn Marion: 6 years - $79 million (ends in 2008)
Peja Stojakovic: 5 years - $64 million (ends in 2011)
Rashard Lewis: 6 years - $118 million (ends in 2013)
Samuel Dalembert: 6 years - $58 million (ends in 2011)
I think that shows it’s easy to overpay and overvalue. I’m going to be okay with Rip making about $9 million a year for the next two seasons (just about a $1 million per less than Kevin Martin) if he so chooses, especially considering he’s so much better than you give him credit for (in any system where he can get OPEN), and better than a lot of the players listed above and below. At this point in his career, Ray Allen really doesn’t offer more than Rip, but he makes $18 million dollars more in two less years of work. It’s easy to overvalue and overpay in this league. The Pistons don’t, especially with Rip.
Just to give you some sense that I’m not blindly arguing one view, here are some reasonable contracts belonging to some good to great guards:
Kevin Martin: 5 years - $50 million (ends in 2013)
Raja Bell: 5 years - $24 million (ends in 2010)
Leandro Barbosa: 5 years - $33 million (ends in 2012)
Manu Ginobili: 6 years - $52 million (ends in 2010)
Caron Butler: 5 years - $46 million (ends in 2011)
There are a lot more contracts like the first set than ones like this set in the NBA. Boney, be happy we have Rip and have him at the rate we do, and please, stop hating already.
All contract info provided by a wonderful site:
http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/contracts