The season ended much earlier than I thought it would, so I’m going to let this marinate a little bit and try to enjoy the rest of the weekend before posting some kind of grand finale. But first, some brief reactions:
- Congratulations to the Celtics, who convinced me they’re the better team. Even when Detroit got going on all cylinders, the Celtics always found a way to hang around until the very end (Game 4), keep the Pistons at bay (Game 5) or weather the storm and seal the deal (Game 6). There’s no quit on that team from top to bottom. I don’t appreciate the way the team came together in just one summer, but you can’t argue with the results.
- Antonio McDyess is taking this hard. Really hard. I implore you to read this.
- This was easily Flip Saunders’ best year on the sidelines, and Tayshaun Prince did his best to deflect criticism from Flip after the game, but I think he’s probably gone — even if for no other reason than the fact that he’ll be entering the last year of his contract next season. I don’t think Dumars/Davidson wants to can him before his contract is up, but I don’t think they want to extend him, either, and bringing back a lame duck coach who’s allegedly struggled to earn the respect of everybody in the locker room doesn’t make sense.
- Who do I think will replace him? Michael Curry or Avery Johnson are my guesses. Plus, Curry would be dirt cheap as a first-time coach, which would offset the expense of paying Flip to leave.
- Did Rasheed Wallace play his last game as a Piston? I’m leaning toward yes. He can still produce and is an underrated defender, but he’s not consistent and (most importantly) will be entering the final year of his contract. That said, I don’t think Dumars will give him away — it’d have to be the right package, and it’s difficult to get full value on one of the most misunderstood players in the league.
- Another guy who might be moved: Rip Hamilton. Not because he doesn’t fit this team, but because his trade value is still sky-high and the Pistons could probably enter next year with Rodney Stuckey playing next to Chauncey Billups and still expect to compete for a title.
- If the Pistons do start making trades, they better not block Amir Johnson. I know it’s easy to scoff at the hype (though even I laugh at the “Amir LeKobe” nickname one of you came up with), but he’s absolutely the team’s best rebounder and shot-blocker. Even if that’s all he ever will be — and there’s no reason to think it is — that’s worth 25-30 minutes a game.
- I’ll weigh in more on all of this later this weekend and throughout the summer, I just wanted to get some quick thoughts up lest you think I’ve abandoned ship.
Last but not least, thank you.
This site exists because you guys read it, and I never expected in my wildest expectations that it would draw such an intelligent, loyal and respectful community of readers. It’s extremely humbling to see so many of you guys to claim this little corner of the internet as your preferred destination to talk hoops and watch games. I hope you all stick around this summer — things should get really interesting.
Matt, what do you suppose the odds are that Laimbeer gets offered the hypothetical coaching position?
Man, I hate to agree with Dice, but this team for reasons I don’t understand never seemed to put forth the maximum effort it should have. I’d almost miss the playoffs a year or two and then come back to win it, then to get this far and lose three straight years.
And Matt, thanks for running such a cool site all year. We do appreciate it out here in Pistonland.
Package ‘Sheed and Chauncey in a trade to get Greg Oden.
Next season Pistons starting 5:
Stuckey
Rip
Tay
Maxiell/Dyess
Greg Oden
Head Coach: Bill Laimbeer or Chuck Daley.
Fuck Chauncey and Rasheed and their hip-hop, 2nd place in the Eastern Conf bullshit.
Keep up the great work Matt! Here and Fanhouse, great writing.
I’ll wait for the summer to go into it more but the Pistons have always been more complicated then other teams and it makes them less consistent. I don’t mean more complicated by personality, I mean flat more complicated.
The Spurs have 3 primary offensive players and complimentary players. The Celtics have the same setup. The Lakers have Kobe as Option 1 and 1A. The Pistons have 5 multitalented offensive players in their starting lineup and the sheer number of possible interactions is just greater then on other teams. That’s great when it’s working but when the slightest bit of indecision creeps in it also ripples through the entire system that much more quickly.
I’ve always thought the team worked best when McDyess is “on” because it simplifies the offense. Every player can feel comfortable with a drive to the hoop knowing they can kick to ‘Dyess to hit a jumper. As much as I love McDyess I think he’s wrong when he says the team didn’t give it’s all. It’s like what Stan Van Gundy says. It’s not a moral failing when a team plays badly. It’s just plays badly. “Wanting it” more doesn’t mean you magically execute better.
Loved this run but it’s time. Sheed for Camby/Klieza. You know Denver is looking to move some pieces and Camby could provide the most important thing we lost when Ben and his game left town, weak side defense. Klieza could back up Tay or even start over him (I know that sounds crazy). The guy can flat out score. One deal, two holes filled, top notch defender and a guy who can create his own shot. It’s all speculation but I think it’s a deal like this that is going to happen. Also, could you imagine Sheed, A.I and Melo on the same squad? George Karl may have just gotten more bald at the mere speculation.
Unlike the past few summers, when I would read the Freep every day, or better yet DBB, something big is going to happen this summer. We’re due for a shakeup of some proportion, and honestly, I hope that we get into a situation where someone becomes THE MAN on this team. I’m starting to agree with Joejoejoe; we need a simpler offense, something that is harder to get untracked, something that can’t win you every game but will win you the important ones, rather than one with the potential to do so. I am no basketball expert - I don’t know who the Man will be, but we need him…
Also, I agree with Matt W, the patron saint of DBB goodness (thanks again for everything). With the coaching market the way it is, and with some good coaches out there, I think the Pistons are in a prime position to find a different coach. Avery? JVG? Curry? We have to. The downside is, as someone pointed out, unless you get one of the Big Coaches, you simply don’t win in this league. Where the hell do Big Coaches come from, anyway?
It’s pretty sad, too, that Natalie’s gonna have to change her URL to http://www.noneedforsheed.com. Sheed’s my favorite play, but for god’s sake, he just doesn’t bring it every night. I mean, I’m in his damn fan club, but his work ethic’s a lot like mine (I left work an hour early again today), and he gets paid a hell of a lot more than me.
*player
This is how LB does it, folks.
Straight swap for Camby works. I dont think Denver will really want to get rid of Kleiza. If anyone could get good value for Sheed, Joe can.
Keep Herrmann as Tays backup and use him I say.
Trading Rip would be the worst thing Joe Dumars can do. Someone name one shooting guard better than Rip that the Pistons can realistically acquire this year.
NONE.
Packaging Rasheed and Amir should be very intriguing to a few teams in the West (San Antonio, Dallas, Seattle, Golden State). I’d hate to see Rasheed go, however.
Flip’s Fault.
“he’s absolutely the team’s best rebounder and shot-blocker. Even if that’s all he ever will be”
The team I love was built around someone like that, once before.
Oh Matt, you know we’ll be sticking around and checking this site for new stuff. You keep posting then we’ll read it and post a comment or two.
Reading the link to the McDyess story is just heart breaking. He is such a humble player that the Pistons should built a shrine for this guy while he is still alive. I hope he’ll stay and play another year because it is just too soon to see him retire. The Pistons as a whole failed him. Joe D has better come out soon in a few days and talk about this loss to the fans because he owes them as much.
I have mix feeling about letting Flip go because he did coached the team for all the years and above 50 wins per season. But if he for every year failed to bring the team to the NBA FINAL then that is a huge failure all in itself. Maybe a new coach would be good for the team or maybe new starting five is necessary. I mean the same starting five for six years now. Can we get a change now?
Hands down, we need to get Bill Laimbeer as our coach. His coaching style exemplifies Detroit style basketball and you can guaran-damn-tee that he would have the respect of the players in a way that Flip apparently never had. I’m sure he’d take the job if Joe offered it to him, the only reason I can see that he’s still coaching the Shock after all of these years is that he’s waiting for the Piston’s job to open up.
The thought of Sheed being gone pains me, but I can definitely see it happening. He himself exemplifies joejoejoe’s comment about complication. His skill set is so big that his consistency suffers. If all he did was play on the block and shoot threes after setting screens, he would dominate. But he wanders around too much, and I’m not sure if that’s his fault or Flip’s for not putting an end to it.
That’s just his game, though. Thanks for the internet for putting some of the past blunders in perspective. And I didn’t even realize the absense of the pre-game rituals; what a shame. Something was wrong with him last night, at the worst time, but that seems to be the case all too often.
I agree with Matt that Sheed and Flip may be done. I can’t imagine Rip being traded - that much consistent scoring which is so simply integrated into the system is hard to come by. I love this team and I’m sad to say that this era is over, but at least I’m not scared. Joe will continue to serve us well.
Which is also why dribble penetration is such a ridiculously effective tactic for the opposition. The older guys simply don’t have the legs and energy to contest every shot, or to scramble back out to the perimeter after the opposition kicks it back out.
I know Rasheed can block shots, and Antonio does on occasion, too. Yet, it’s not reliable, consistent, and the bigs simply aren’t that menacing anymore. Kendrick Perkins didn’t at all look intimidated by Rasheed Wallace. This doesn’t mean they’re bad players, just that perhaps their abilities are diminishing. They can’t jump or move explosively, and much of their effectiveness is derived from knowing when to be where, particularly on defense. Dyess and Sheed can’t athletically compensate for a blown coverage.
This isn’t saying that Amir is a magic balm for the Pistons problems inside. Also, while Chauncey was erratic in this series, he carried the Pistons as far as he could in the biggest game of the year. The backcourt can still be a three-headed monster, especially if Stuckey develops how we’re all knocking on wood, crossing our fingers, and writing letters to God in hopes that he will. I’m asking that Santa bring me some answers for that front-court, and all may yet be well in Piston-land.
I don’t know what the hell to do with Tayshaun, but give Herrmann an offer! Do lose him to some euro-league.
*Don’t
Exile, I don’t see why in the world Portland would do that. Here’s why:
First, consider how that trade could go down. In order to match up salaries (Billups and Wallace are due like 25MM), you probably need to include two of the following three contracts: Francis (17MM expiring ‘09), LaFrentz (13MM expiring ‘09), and Miles (9MM expiring ‘10).
Second, consider that the Blazers are probably set up better than any team in the NBA right now. They have only 19.8MM of salary on the books for the ‘09-’10 season. And incredibly, that includes a signed, young core of Brandon Roy, Greg Oden, Lamarcus Aldrige, and several of their role players from this year. They’ll also have whomever they draft this year in the lottery on his rookie deal.
So you’re Kevin Pritchard. You make this trade, next year you’ve got:
Billups
Roy
Outlaw
Aldridge
Wallace
That lineup is pretty nice, but the two guys you acquired are declining assets. You’re far from a lock to win the title this year, and the window starts shutting really quickly. You’ve also blown a considerable amount of cap space that you could have used in ‘10 — the free agent class that’s being called the most loaded in NBA history (remember, before you did this trade you only had like 20MM spoken for in 2010). Finally, you’d be bringing back King Jailblazer — the last guy Paul Allen wants back.
On the other hand you could play the hand you have now. You sign a badass in 2010, and you are built to contend for the title for 5 years.
Detroit should pull the trigger every day and twice on Sunday. Oden is going to be one of the 15 best players in the league for 10 years. And our young core would be amazing, with some excellent veteran talent in Rip and Prince. But again, this just seems like a pipe dream to me.
UTEP, I don’t think that trade happens either. Camby still doesn’t address our need for a guy who can score in the low-post. He also doesn’t help us get younger. And while Rasheed is inconsistent for personality reasons, Camby is inconsistent for injury reasons. Kleiza is a young stud, but I don’t think we’re getting his excellent contract when Sheed and Camby have such similar value.
That said, if we could do this, I’d pull the trigger in a heartbeat…b/c we’d get Kleiza.
Oden is their cornerstone. There’s no way they cede a number one pick that quickly. It would be amazing to have a young guy with that potential to build around, but I like our youngsters tremendously. I seriously wonder about an Elton Brand scenario. At full strength, he’s the sort of guy who could really do damage in today’s East.
I’d like to get Brand in a pseudo sign and trade for Sheed…it’s not clear to me that any one has the cap space this year to make his ETO worthwhile. We get Brand at 16.4MM for a year, we send them Sheed at 13.7MM, and we throw in “something interesting but with ultimately not a ton of value” to give L.A. incentive to do the deal and match salaries…maybe Afflalo?
Sign and trades are tough b/c they have to work for three parties: player and both teams. I think this fits the bill. Brand gets to play for a contender and make as much money as he would anywhere else. L.A. gets a young player and maybe a second round pick for a guy they aren’t keeping beyond next season regardless. We get a committed low post scorer and rebounder who’s under 30.
Thanks Matt W., I appreciate your hardwork, analysis, and inside scoop you give us readers. I know I’ll still be here, reading your articles through out the summer and hope to see a brighter Piston future next season.
Brand played decently when he back for a stint at the end of the season. There’s still injuries sirens blaring all over the guy, but an off-season of conditioning, especially if the “guru” Arnie Kander gets his hands on him, might have Brand 100%. This doesn’t leave the Clips completely hamstrung, either, since Kaman played man-sized ball in Brand’s absence. A Kaman-Wallace front-court might be acceptable for the Clips, since Thornton showed a lot of potential this season and may yet be the centerpiece of their team.
Brand could opt out and sign with another team entirely, anyway, and it all seems a little too perfect. I shudder to think what piece of the future they might demand in a sign-and-trade deal like that, regardless.
First of all, thanks for the great site Matt. I’m relatively new to DBB but I know I’ll be a regular visitor from now on.
This core group has had a great run but 3 straight losses in the ECF proove that changes need to be made. It’ll be interesting to see what changes Joe D makes this summer. Our biggest issue these last 3 years in the playoffs has been that we don’t have somebody who can create a shot for themselves and/or teammmates on a nightly basis. This has led to too many offensive draughts at critical times in games.
Joe D’s goal should be figuring out how we can get that guy this summer or put ourselves in a great position to do that down the road through trades or free agency. Maybe he thinks Stuckey has that type of potential, and if that’s true then he needs to play at least 30 to 35 minutes a game next year. If it’s possible to trade a couple of starters for somebody who can be our number 1 option on offense then we should do that. It would also free up time for either Stuckey or Amir to get more playing time. No matter what though, those two guys need to play a lot of minutes next year since they have the most potential of all our young guys.
Unfortunately I don’t see us being able to require an offensive player of that caliber this summer. I wouldn’t be adverse to moving a couple starters for some combination of cap space/young talented players/draft picks. The goal is to win chammpionships, so if we have to play for a couple years at a lower level in order to improve us down the road then that’s fine with me. I’m sad to see this core groups run probably ending but I’m excited for the future because of our young guys and knowing that we are in good hands with Joe D.
Well its been great guys. i always enjoy reading what you guys think about our team. i would not part with Rip. I don’t think the backcourt is the problem. We need a 4 or 5 that really works on the block. Most of our post players are jump shooters. When KG got his 4th foul we could not get him out of the game. We still need a better backup for Tay as well. he just plays way to much and it showed at the end again. spend some money. Sign and trade with Elton Brand and Sheed. Then maybe a real SF. take dice out of the starting line up and let the young guys play. Maybe save dice for the playoffs like we did Hunter. This maybe the year that we need to be over the cap. Joe has always done a great job. But this off season will mark his place in history. It is hard for any team to do what we have done over the past 6 to 7 years without having a few bad years here and there. Look at Miami and The Bulls. Both will be picking one and two come June. I cant wait to see what happens.
I definitely agree with everyone about Stuckey and Amir. Stuckey needs to fill the Vinnie Johnson-role next year, as a de facto third starter. (With 96 minutes between the two guard spots per game, each could play 32 mpg, or 30 mpg with Afflalo getting a few.) And Amir needs to see the floor every night. I’m frustrated that he didn’t get a chance in this series. There were times when we looked, frankly, a bit old and slow up front and a young, athletic high-energy guy could have been just what the doc ordered.
As for the suggestion that we bring back Chuck Daly, I’d love it but Daddy Rich is about 75 years old. He’s not coming back.
First, yes what a let down. It’s getting unbearable to be a Pistons fan these days. About the roster, Chauncey just got a HUGE contract last summer with $46 mil guaranteed over four years. So you can cross him off as trade bait, no one wants that kind of contract, especially for a non-superstar. Tayshaun plays too big a role, without some of his key blocks there’s no six straight trips to the ECF. They’ve got Stuckey and Maxy who are potential starters. So, I hate to throw Rip out there, but package Sheed and Rip and see if there’s any takers. I might take cash and a HIGH first round draft pick this summer. Just a thought…
Carey, great point. It was REALLY frustrating that Doc Rivers left KG out there with four personals in the third and we didn’t go right at him on the block. We should have been working it inside every possession until he got #5.
We have some room for flexibility with our mid-level exception, but I won’t claim to understand a damn bit of it.
I don’t want to sound like a total Brand slappy, but he’s the best big option that one could get in a sign-and-trade deal. Jamison could be out there, but I don’t see Washington wanting to deal within their own conference, and we obviously can’t afford to sign him outright anyway.
Jermaine O’Neal is so banged-up, he’s a complete downgrade in almost every category compared to Rasheed., and will again stand in the way of Max and Amir. That’s a Webberesque move.
Agree with all the comments about all the great work on this site, and that it’s time for a change. Here are my additional three cents:
First, looking at the Pistons’ glass as half full, we are in such better shape than, say, the Spurs, Suns, Mavs or Heat who are in decline and simply don’t have the next generation in the waiting. We do with Stuckey, Maxiell, Amir, maybe Afflalo. I don’t think Joe will trade any of those players and will instead start building around them.
Second, no attention has been paid to this, but for the second year in a row Tayshaun was asked to guard the opposing team’s best offensive player (Lebron and Pierce) and simply ran out of steam as the series wore on. I love Tayshaun to death, and I’m not blaming him for any more than his fair share, but the truth is that I’m not convinced that he is the player to build around. He’s a fantastic role player, but I’m worried that he is already at his peak.
Third, I don’t think he’d be a terrible choice as coach, but all the talk about Michael Curry makes me laugh and remember the agony he caused Pistons fans during the Rick Carlisle years.
Here’s my concern for Joe D:
He held onto this core group a year, maybe even two, too long. Now they’ve all played their best basketball. And, none of them are superstar caliber on their own. It’s got to be a package to make it work for both sides.
Interesting thoughts agin. i always read this site, keep it going.
The Pistons still have a bright future.
Here’s one from the realms of sheer fantasy: Sheed to the Bucks for Mason and Bogut. It works salary wise, and Joe can call up his old buddy Hammond and do a Ainge/McHale *wink wink* deal.
We get a young C that can rebound, score in the post, and pass the rock like few bigs can. If the Bucks want a sweetener, then we can throw in a draft pick or something. Plus the Bucks will probably draft another big anyway, and they can have the ultimate three-shooting-big-man team with Villanueva.
Everbody wins!
Starters:
Bogut
Maxiell
Prince
Hamilton
Billups
Bench:
McDyess
AmirLekobe?
Herrmann
Afllalo
Stuckey
We would still win games with that lineup.
I just hypothetically wet myself.
Matt, you know I’ll be here every day this summer, just like I was the last two years. While I was a long-time lurker, I’ll be fully active every day just like I was last season. Even if there isn’t a lot to talk about, I’ll be here.
As for all this trade talk, I agree with Matt. My first thought after the blinding pain let me see a little– Sheed is gone. That monster contract is sexy to a LOT of teams. And at the close of this season, I will say this– It will surprisingly be tough to see Flip go. But Avery Johnson? If you told me last season that Avery Johnson could possibly be the coach of the Detroit Pistons, I’d punch you in the crotch: “that’s impossible!” That could be very exciting.
Some of these trade concepts are silly. Oden? Dumb move for both teams. Brand? No thank you, steer clear of those injuries. Camby? Dumb for Detroit.
I don’t know how this would work, nor do I think Golden State has the money, but I’d love to see some kind of trade including Rasheed for Biedrins. He’s young (22), he’s huge (6′11), he can shoot (highest field goal percentage this season), he can rebound (holds the league record for single game rebounds this season at 26). He’s not a premier defender, but he plays ball for Nellie… I think he might have a trick up his sleeve.
I don’t know how the hell that could happen, but I’d love to see that. Otherwise, David Lee (and would that be a solid choice for a starting C?)? Will Utah keep both Okur and Boozer after their front-court meltdown against LA? Who knows.
I want to keep Herrmann though, especially if Sheed goes. Without sheed, it’d be great to have a combo forward that can hit threes and play the four. But we have to build a team to continue to compete with Dwight Howard as he develops. If we make some big moves this season, we don’t have to worry about Boston in a few seasons… they’ve team concept is no future proof.
Also, please please please please please no Jeff Van Gundy. I hate that little gremlin.
There are many options the Pistons can take this summer..and obviously the first is getting rid of Flip..I sit there and watch games and wonder what the _ _ _ _ he is doing and I sometimes think as a 17 year old that im probably a better coach than he is.. but we all know Curry will be our coach next yeah becuase of the cheap price he will be..besides the coaching situation..i think the stupidest thing to do is get rid of richard hamilton..he is an excellent mid range shooter and has established his 3 point range..and he is tough defender i think and that is hard to find in a SG and if Dumars does something stupid it would be getting rid of our main man in our offense..the only way i would get rid of RIP would if we packaged him to phoenix with sheed and got amare..i know that is out of this world and its not gonna happen but i think if we got an amare and a raja bell for a sheed and hamilton we could be very very scary.. a starting line up of:
chauncey
stuckey
tay
amare
dice/max
although that will never happen we know for one that..sheed needs to go..its hard becuase hes versitale and hes a deep shooter and a low post shooter (every other 8th game) but sheed is done..i love sheed..detroit loves sheed..but we are all sick of his complacency, his lack of effort, and his attitude..i just think the only way dumars can get rid of him is if we get the right package..i think if we throw an amir into a package many teams will love getting a veteran as well as an ‘up and coming’ talented forward in johnson..so there are many possibilities out there and dumars needs to shop around..but i just dont think getting rid of rip or tay is going to benefit the team..i like the core of rip chauncey tay and dice..we just need that one more piece and rasheed isn’t filling that spot..so lets pray for and hope we dont make the mistake of making a terrible trade with rasheed..as we did when we drafted darko which still makes me lose sleep at night..because i know all of you our there who feel the same way i do and wonder what if..what if we drafted melo, or bosh, or wade, or even david west..so lets pray that this summer wont cost us another losing season..becuase no championship is considered a failure of a season.. and a break up of the certain players we need on this team to comepete could potentional lead us in the wrong direction..its time for joey d to make the right move for sheed and bring in the right attitude and work ethic the pistons need..
IN JOEY I TRUST!
Or laughton’s idea, which rocks.
hey. i do’nt like the pistons, i’ve never professed to like them, in fact i kind of hate them. here’s what i see though in an unbiased opinion. the league is out to get them. it’s like sheed said, it’s entertainment. the league wants teams other than the pistons in the finals. you can say the pistons don’t put forth maximum effort and maybe they don’t. they know from playing through the regular season that it probably wouldn’t take their maximum effort to win. they know how much effort it takes to win without an officiating conspiracy on the level they see every year and they put forth that amount of effort. problem is in the playoffs, it’s not enough. they have to play well enough to beat every team by 30 every single night or the wins will be ripped away from them by joe crawford and dick bavetta and david stern. only a juggernaut with a superduperstar on the level of tim duncan can manage to win titles in a small market without a dwyane wade type of flash. it’s just how it is. the league makes me sick. should make you sick too.
Now that I think about it, Laughton, I don’t see why the Bucks would ever consider moving Bogut, unless they were desperate for money and had zero hope of the playoffs next season. Neither are true. I’m pretty certain they’ll make the playoff next year (and hope to see Sessions start next year, even possibly the MIP of 08-09)
Maybe John Hammond does us a solid….think about Ainge and Mchale
To tweek or not to tweek?
needs: the 5 (defense and post play)
back up for tay (i like herman, but…)
I like flip, but he has to go just for the sole reason of change of voice, avery might not workout in the long run (2nd year) if bill lam. is a serious candidate that would be great….those three needs or tweeks
What about trading ‘Sheed and Billups to Miami for the 2nd pick in the draft, which should be Beasley.
Problem with trading with Miami is it’s East Conf, better to bury ‘Sheed and Chauncey in the Western Conference where they’ll never see the NBA Finals again.
Try this one on for size, it works in the trade machine
Three team trade ends up like this:
Milwaukee - Zach Randolph, David Lee
New York - Sheed, Charlie V
Detroit - Bogut, Desmond Mason
Talking about the summer
The LVSL goes from July 11 - 20th.
We should see Stuckey, Affalo, Cheikh and Johnson there and maybe Maxiell once again along with our two draft picks.
Talking about draft picks.
If we don’t move up from 29th it appears at this point that D.J. White and Nathan Jawai are the two leading candidates for our first pick with J.J. HIckson having an outside chance.
It would be great if we could draft CDR, a Detroit kid, but I think we would need to move up from 29th to get him.
I cant help myself, but here is another one:
Milwaukee - Zach Randolph, Sheed, Mardy Collins
New York - Michael Redd, Charlie V
Detroit - Bogut, David Lee
It works in the trade machine, and once again everybody wins!
Firstly, we get uber-rebounding and interior help.
Secondly, New York gets a shoot first ball hog and a shoot first ball hog.
Thirdly, Milwaukee gets a no defense softy, a cheap shot artist, and Sheed gets to go back to being a PF.
I feel like I must be taking crazy pills! It’s too beautiful to truly comprehend!
Oh, and I forgot to mention I get to cheer on my favourite Aussie on my favourite team.
Everybody wins!
. I’m frustrated that he didn’t get a chance in this series. There were times when we looked, frankly, a bit old and slow up front and a young, athletic high-energy guy could have been just what the doc ordered.>>
The Hawks as we know beat the Celtics three times at home mostly because of the energy that their young guys were able to bring before the home crowd.
We lost 2 out of 3 at home, yet Johnson who along with Maxiell are our two highest energy guys sat. It seems to me that it was a big mistake not to keep playing the Zoo Crew in tack throughout the playoffs, albeit with fewer minutes than during the regular season.
This way they would have been up to speed to play against the Celtics and it seems to me that we would have won more than one game at home against them if the Zoo Crew had been kept in tact due to a great extent to the energy that they brought especially at home, during the regular season.
Mike, several times during game six I was yelling for Amir at the top of my lungs. While Rasheed was shooting 2-12, I was hungry for Amir to turn the tide. However, I do NOT want to break that game down, nor that series. But I agree with you, Mike. I wanted Amir on the floor. Its a shame Flip didn’t play him in that series. He came up huge in limited time against Philly, didn’t play against Orlando for match-up reasons, but there was no reason he couldn’t contribute against Boston.
Thanks Matt.
Also reading Dyess’s interview had me nodding all the time. maybe since some of the starters got that first ring they don’t feel the urgency to get another…
Sorry, Laughton. I know he’s an Aussie, but I don’t think Bogut is a good enough defender to lead a team to the championship.
I’ve been looking though scouting reports for the draft and there aren’t a lot of players that excite me.
I think it’s pretty much impossible to find a quality big man with the 29th pick. Devon Hardin has been mentioned but he doesn’t seem to have the toughness JoeD usually looks for.
Chris Douglas-Roberts would be great, but I think he’ll be gone.
I like what I’ve read about Bill Walker. Athletic and a little nasty.
Seems like most are moving on pretty seamlessly to the off-season. I’m still crushed. Devastated even. I can’t even bring myself to go to ESPN.com or SI.com or any other sports site. I can’t read the articles. Not yet. No way. Too painful. Is there a pic of KG jersey poppin’? I’m afraid to know.
I missed the last half of game 6 since I don’t watch games on the Sabbath. In a way, I’m glad I missed it. It would’ve killed me to watch it. I don’t even know the score yet. I just read the whole thread of the game on DBB. Completely depressing. Sounds like we were ahead at the start of the third and completely blew it.
If this is the case, then we played anti-Detroit Pistons ball. We’re supposed to be the closers. The experience veterans. Blah, blah, blah.
I’m in mourning right now, and I ain’t talkin’ Alonzo either. This loss hurts. For me it hurts more than last year’s loss to the Cavs. That seemed fluke-ish with LeBron beating us 1 on 5. This seems final. Completely final. This squad is done. Over. Fin.
We’ve got to blow this thing up. I’m not sure how, what, or who yet, but it has to happen. Honestly, I can’t even think about it yet. I’m still completely incredulous about our loss. I had already planned a game 7 get-together for Sunday night…
Here is my initial, emotional reaction (don’t hold me to it a week or a month from now).
CB- gone
RW- gone
RH- gone
TP- gone
AM- stays
RS- stays
JM- stays
AJ- stays
WH- stays
The rest- don’t care right now.
There is a cancer of complacency and entitlement lodged deep in the guts of the corporate psyche of 4 of the starters on this team. CB and RW have it the worst. RH and TP less so, yes, but they too are still infected. It must be rooted out, destroyed, and vanquished. At all costs. Confidence? Yes, by all means! Entitlement-driven complacency? I hate it. Hate it.
And I LOVE each of these guys when they are at their personal and professional best! I am not hater; I am lover of these guys. Full on. Sheed is the salt of this team. CB is the steering wheel and the “face” of the ‘chise. RH is the engine and a blast to watch run all over the universe. TP is humble, poised, and just downright cool. Yes, yes, yes.
But they are done as a unit. They are infected. The corporate passion and new-ness of the 04 and 05 runs is gone. They have become familiarized with losing, and the sting is gone from them. Maybe not entirely, but enough. Only Dice’s heart is truly broken. You can just tell.
So Joe, blow it up. You are the man. Give us a passionate team that is hungry and committed to hard work every night. Really committed. Young or old, star or journeyman, I don’t care, as long as they care. And they are willing to play like they care. I’ll take 45 hard-fought wins from a hardworking, passionate team over 55 from a team that could have, if they had really, consistently applied themselves EVERY night, won 3 or more rings. I’m through with under-performers. Give me some over-achievers.
Like the 04 squad.
Forgive my ramblings.
Its all therapeutic at this point.
I’m going back into hiding for a day or a week or a month. Hopefully I’ll emerge more optimistic. Having Joe D at the helm will make this easier.
In pain,
Dash
The only people, in my mind who are in flux are Sheed and Flip. Sheed is an expiring contract coming into a banner year for FAs (2010), so, don’t be surprised if he stays, although I doubt it if Dumars can find a taker for him.
Flip’s deal is a little more complicated. I think he did mostly ok this year, and certainly improved from previous years. He was also hampered by Chauncey’s hammy, and if Chauncey was 100% it may have made a difference. OTOH, Dumars’ guy Michael Curry is waiting in the wings, and Flip is entering the last year of his deal. Which reminds me, Michael Rosenberg analyzes it succinctly here: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/SPORTS03/80531056/&imw=Y
He shouldn’t be fired, yet didn’t deserve to be extended, which creates a sticky situation for Dumars. If both Flip and Sheed stay, it may have a detrimental effect on team chemistry. So, I’m kind of thinking at least, one, perhaps both, are going.
Let me remind the gentle reader that we’re reloading, not rebuilding. You have quite a few young guys of note who can become forces in this league if they continue to develop: Stuckey, Maxiell (needs to hit the 17 footer and foul shots with more consistency), and Amir. Stuckey is going to be a Player in this league. IMHO, we’re one post presence away from being in the title mix again. The problem is that post presence was supposed to be Sheed.
This is going to take a while for Dumars to sort out, unless Flip wants out of Detroit, if he can, say, get the Phoenix gig (wonder why that’s still open, hmmmm…).
At the very worst, we’re still going to be the 4th-6th best team in the league. Hardly rebuilding. At the best, who knows? Hey Dice, I know you take this stuff hard, but don’t give up hope yet.
I agree with just about everything V said. Although, I actually think Maxiell IS consistent with that jumper.
The difficulty with trading Sheed is that the expiring contract is only attractive if you can give away a bad contract in return. So by giving up Sheed’s expiring contract, you’re taking on an overpaid player.
A team that feels they are one piece away from being a contender might trade for Sheed but that’s doubtful given Sheed’s reputation and recent playoff performance. It would be a major gamble and most GMs probably won’t risk giving up some young talent for it.
To me, it seems like Dumars would only trade Sheed if he felt the “overpaid” player coming back were someone that’s actually worth the money. Or, of course, the sign-and-trade options that have already been mentioned.
The best scenario I could come up with for a straight up trade would be trading Sheed to NY for Eddy Curry and someone else. This would team Sheed up with Zach Randolph for a year before he goes off the books. The Pistons then would be stuck with Curry for three years and hope he gets it together. Now, if I’m NY, I’m not sure I make that trade. Eddy Curry has is faults, but $9mil/year isn’t that bad.
Another possibility is Dalembert. So, you see, it might not be a good idea to trade Sheed straight up because these are the kind of players you’ll get in return and be stuck with for a while.
Now, if I’m the Clippers, I’m going to want Amir Johnson along with Sheed in any sign-and-trade. I love Brand and don’t have the confidence in Amir that everyone else does. But, the injury risk would make me hesitant to make that move.
By the way, last year’s off-season, there were two trades I suggested:
First came after my anger at Sheed after the debacle against Cleveland. Sheed for Andrew Bynum and Kwame Brown’s expiring contract. That would have given the Lakers a Big 3 of Kobe, Odom and Sheed, which at the time would have been a huge upgrade for them.
The second came after Kobe announced his desire for a trade. Kobe for Rip/Tay/Amir.
With the benefit of hindsight, how would you evaluate these trades?
Well, the Sheed for Bynum/Brown trade would have looked good up until the point Bynum went down for the season. I still like Bynum’s long-term future, but it’s anyone’s guess if he ever gets his knee right since no one seems to know exactly what’s wrong in the first place.
I hate, hate, hate the idea of giving up Amir, but I think that second trade would have worked (not that the Lakers would have ever agreed to it, I’m strictly looking at it from Detroit’s perspective). Kobe is nearly a good of defender as he is a scorer, so the drop in defense that comes from losing Tay is made up by Kobe containing the other’s teams two.
But more importantly, Kobe is such a dominating presence in the locker room that I don’t think he’d stand for anything distracting from the goal of winning a title — he may be more hungry now than he was before because he’s looking to secure his post-Shaq legacy.
I remember you proposing this trade before the season started but can’t recall my original opinion — I’m curious if my opinion changed.
Matt, in regards to Bynum:
I’ve had that same injury that Bynum has. It happened to me just about 5 years ago, and while I’m no professional athlete, I did compete at a fairly high amateur level. I have never been the same since the injury. My knee hurts for no reason sometimes, when it does, I have trouble walking up a flight of stairs. Playing a pickup basketball game is nearly impossible (the risk of re-injury is too high), and even when playing beer-league softball I have to wear an uncomfortable brace. I think the same thing happened to Shaun Livingston, too, and he’s been out like nearly 2 full years. So, I am not at all optimistic about Bynum’s knee, especially because he’s a big guy which will put a lot of additional stress on that joint.
lot of thoughts after catching up on all this:
-1st, i like avery johnson coming in. seems the only reason he’s gone from dallas is nelson made a trade that sucked and cuban got pissed at avery for not being able to make lemonade out of s*** and they had a blow up. i don’t blame avery for dallas’ failings this season. (though he’s clearly complicit from last year’s loss to golden st.) my feeling is essentially, if we’re taking a step back to develop the kids and push them towards being the nucleus, then michael curry or avery. if we’re reloading for another run, avery.
-i know i should feel bad for dyess, and i do in some ways, but the guy took 3 f-ing shots in an elimination game. he stepped back in the shadows on a day we desperately needed frontline help. if he thinks he’s being part of the solution by pointing out our deficiencies after the fact, he’s lost his mind.
-if we did a thread of just who should the pistons deal and for whom, it would eclipse the 600+ mark from the other night. i agree with whoever said it above (i apologize for not scrolling back up), that this team is tainted with complacency and arrogance. and unfortunately that comes from our best players: chauncey, rip, sheed and tay. you’re not going to trade all of those guys, but i have to figure at least 1 or 2 are gone. as much as sheed’s disappearance in game 6 was an issue (again) and his antics cost him and us (i think he had a hard time playing with his emotions in check knowing what loomed if he mouthed off too much), i still harken back to joe d. saying sheed is the quintessential piston. you don’t find better 6-11 one-on-one defenders who can make 3s and score in the post than sheed. they broke the mold. some team is going to be salivating out west to get their hands on him. (not portland obviously.) i think chauncey and tay both have pretty reasonable contracts so i don’t know if it’s wise to deal either. (and i don’t think chauncey’s contract is going to deter teams from inquiries either.) to me, it always comes back to rip as the best bargaining chip. he’s coming off a fantastic series. he’s got a contract that’s almost at its end. of course, it’s the very reasons that teams would want him, that would keep him around.
i’ve mentioned it, and it seems more and more unlikely as he and denver discuss a contract extension, but this idea just keeps clinking around in my head: iverson. if iverson doesn’t sign an extension to play out the final year of his deal, he would be available for trade. you’d send them rip, our #1 pick and hopefully just mcdyess (and not maxiell or amir) for iverson. it’s a go-for-it-all deal, because both sheed and iverson would then be UFAs after next season. but if we had iverson, we’d finally have a guy who commands a double-team, who can create his own shot. we have the shots for him. none of our remaining squad needs shot attempts to have good games. we would have philly’s finals squad from ‘01 on steroids. and then after a year, no matter how it goes, you hand the keys over to the kids. but it would make a huge splash next year and it would put us right back in the driver’s seat for the east and the whole damn thing.
and i would think, like most of you probably think, it’s completely out of the realm of possibility. except that we’ve been one matt geiger trade kicker from iverson wearing a pistons uni already.
Thats a lot of hypothetical thinking, and I think I’ll add to it. I posted this already in the game 6 thread but my guess is no one has been in there since Saturday early morning.
Rasheed & Rip for T-Mac & a salary balancer (Steve Francis would work).
Houston gets Rasheed to play alongside Yao giving them the best defensive front court in the NBA. They get a proven consistent scorer while giving up the guy who just can’t seem to get them or any other team out of the 1st round.
Detroit gets a player who can take the game over on command, but has him surrounded by very good players who can support T-Mac properly rather than just standing there and watching him play.
Detroit also gets a player that David Stern would like to see in the finals (that has to count for something…).
I would stop there, but with Chauncey being the leader of this team, and this team obviously not getting it done, we need to trade Chauncey somewhere for a big. Would a sign & trade work out with Okafor? Not sure why Charlotte would do that…but if they didn’t think they could afford Okafor and/or if they thought Okafor would be leaving anyways for greener pasture, well then they may be willing to get something in return and billups alongside gerald wallace would be pretty formidable.
Stuckey - PG
T-Mac - SG
Tay - SF
Maxiell - PF
Okafor - PF/C
Amir/McDyess off the bench with Afflalo and Hermann to backup T-Mac/Tay. We’d need to find a back up PG though…but Dixon, Hunter, Hayes, and Ratliff are all off the books so we could look to secure a backup using some of the freed up cap-space.
You’ve successfully changed the entire face of this team, while bringing in a very hungry superstar, a very young solid center, and inserting your key younger studs into the starting lineup to allow them to fully grow.
The only way Stuckey will ever be on the same level as Paul or Williams, or even close to them for that matter is if he gets starter minutes.
Hey Matt W, I’m coming in late to this thread but just wanted to say thanks for all the time and effort you put into this blog. I think most blogs take on the characteristics of the folks in charge, so that bodes pretty well for you — there’s a solid group of intelligent, insightful, funny contributors here, and it all starts from the top. Keep up the hard work, don’t go Sheed on us, and I’m sure everyone will be back for crazy off-season antics and summer league hyperbole. Free Amir!
Its strange…at the end of last year, it took me at least a few weeks to get excited for the next season…but knowing how good Joe D. is at making moves, and with the development of Stuckey, I’m already giddy like a little school girl over the potential for next year’s team - whoever it is playing in D-town.
@JackDutch:
My first thought was “Iverson? You crazy.” But then I read on and it made a world of sense. That’s actually pretty brilliant. This lineup would be unreal:
Billups
Iverson
Prince
Maxiell
Wallace
@James B.
If our problem is arrogance, “flipping switches” and taking games off, Tracy McGrady is no solution. Besides, I’d only take that trade if we could sign McGrady and immediately trade his back spasms to another team. McGrady’s a dead albatross who would guarantee us a string of first round exits.
After a year, we let Iverson and Wallace move on. We’ve got a HUGE surplus of cash for a big 2010 signing.
Imagine how much of an impact Iverson would have on Stuckey’s game…
I have no idea how that comment of mine got switched around. The address to James B was supposed to come last. Strange… Anyway, wanted to comment again to show why I agreed with JackDutch so much– that we could sign Iverson and let he and/or Wallace walk the following year and have a nice chunk of cash for a free agent.
The only name that interests me is Elton Brand. Not even Amare, because he’s probably not available at the price we’d want to pay for him. Brand is a different story, however. I have a lot of love for Elgin Baylor, but Donald Sterling calls pretty much all of the shots with the Clippees. Even then, you can’t deal Sheed for him straight up and you have to find $5-$6M in cap space to make the deal work.
The other guy who’d make any sense, except for his contract is that other Wallace guy in Cleveland. He compliments this team well, except for that $14M/yr contract. At those dollars, I’d much prefer Brand (duh) .
The “dead albatross” had the 5th best PER of any player in the playoffs this year. Better than LeBron or Dwight Howard.
@joejoejoe:
Awesome. How far has that PER gotten him in the playoffs? PER doesn’t win games, nor championships. I doubt Joe ever considers that once when making personnel decisions.
re: Amare Stoudamire
We could have made that trade, plus another piece or two, prior to this season– but not after the shaq/marion trade. There’s no way Kerr would make that trade. Stoudamire for Rip/Sheed maybe, but I’m not sure that makes sense for DET.
Mike Payne - What am I supposed to use as a measure of a player that you find acceptable? Two of the 4 players (Kobe, Garnett) ahead of McGrady in the “PER doesn’t win championships” category are playing for the championship. You’re free to say McGrady sucks in the playoffs and point out that he’s never advanced past the first round just as I’m free to point out that basketball is a team sport and there looks to be a correlation between a top PER rating and success in the playoffs.
Mike Payne,
While McGrady certainly has had his fair share of responsibility for losing in the first round, I hardly feel like this year is even remotely his fault.
Placing the blame on McGrady because Yao wasn’t playing and they happened to be playing a better team anyways is McGrady’s fault? Having a rookie starting in place of Yao is McGrady’s fault?
His back spasms wouldn’t be an issue in Detroit because I like so many others have complete faith in Arnie Kander’s ability.
Meanwhile, having Iverson and Billups at the 1 and 2 would completely undersize us at the 2 in an Eastern Conference filled with solid 2 guards who are rarely on the small side. Additionally, do you really think that Iverson would be okay with letting someone else run the offense? Letting someone else bring the ball up the floor etc.? Maybe he would, but I don’t think switching out one of our starters is enough to get a new attitude on this team. Not only that but the two (in my opinion) most problematic starters are the two that are the on-the-floor and locker room leaders and that is Billups and Sheed. Hamilton needs to go simply because the excessive screening/mid-range game forces our team to settle for those jump shots.
I’m not a huge fan of the “poor man’s Dwyane Wade” comparison, but for the sake of argument, look at Wade’s “hot spots” from this past year (or any year):http://www.nba.com/hotspots/
Also worth considering: Wade’s career 3P% is a mere .258. A more reliable outside shot for Stuckey will be a nice bonus, but he could probably get by being streaky. (I’m not saying I don’t expect him to improve in that regard, I’m just saying his worst-case scenario is still nice …)
Also, the new emphasis on penalizing floppers will work in favor of players like Stuckey who thrive on driving to the rim.
(And thanks for all the nice words, folks …)