(Be wary of Sheed’s salty NSFW language)
If these really were Rasheed Wallace’s last days in Detroit, they haven’t been pretty.
Video via BallHype, Awful Announcing
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“Is Rasheed Wallace Done in Detroit?” reading the article does indeed showed that Sheed’s days are numbered. Maybe trading him to the Suns for someone like Stoudemire is the best idea that’s been bouncing around by fans. I for once is tired of his shits too. His emotions can be a distraction but it can be a great rally call for the other guys on the team. But when the team loses then it a distraction.
I say “Let Sheed Go”.
“It is Time”
Same outcome as previous years and the same stupid ideas are being perceived as ’solutions.’
“Trade Sheed!”
“Fire Flip!”
“Break em up and start over”
Same three damn fan requests/media ideas that came after the playoffs for the last 3 years. Everyone wants instant gratification and thinks any move made will be for the better. We’ve officially become spoiled and don’t deserve the great basketball we’ve been fortunate enough to watch since Joe D’s teams really began to gel. If you’re scoring at home, that era began when he successfully traded for Rasheed. No player on the pistons is greater than the sum of the parts, but suggesting trading him away can only be for the best is absurd.
lol@anyone thinking the Suns trade Amare for Sheed. How old are some of you guys?
i think a cap possible and equal talent deal would be sheed to the kings in exchange for Brad Miller and Quincy Douby.
WTF is the foul there?
a. if they trade amare for sheed then kerr really is the dumbest gm on the face of the earth.
b. the “Rest the starters during the regular season” theory obviously didn’t work. Managing the personnel is not the problem, it’s the personnel itself.
c. if a change needs to be made (and it does), Rip may be the most valuable trade-wise, but I want Sheed out. I don’t care if this era started with his arrival (it didn’t, actually, we made it to the ecf’s before he got here, he just helped us over over the hump for two years) his attitude, his mouth, his unwillingness to stay down low where we need him most, his techs need to go. for chrissakes, he got dominated by Kendrick Perkins, and i’m pretty sure Perkins is borderline retarded.
d. i don’t really blame flip for this one and wouldn’t mind him coming back. while i think he’s a year or two behind the learning curve, i put this squarely on the shoulders of tay and sheed. you have to get better as the playoffs go on, and neither has for a few years.
e. we have enough pieces to put a package together with sheed and some bench guys we don’t even use for a true center. we don’t even need a superstar, just someone like perkins willing to stay down low and work his ass off, which sheed is unwilling or incapable of doing.
Perkins was having a field day because the Celtics were driving and handing the ball off to him for dunks. He did that crap all game, but it had more to do with our guards IMO. Maybe if Chauncey had been at full strength.
We could actually do Rasheed for Amare, but we’d have to throw a sweetener or two (or three) into the pot. Say one of the young guards and Rasheed. Or a package of Rip and Rasheed for Amare and a couple of draft picks (since Phoenix loves to give those away). I don’t actually think it would or could happen. The idea actually began with Bill Simmons annual trade value column, and it was kind of laughable then.
I’m late to the “brief thoughts” comment thread, but I have to say that I’d hate to trade Rip after these playoffs. I know he’s been a somewhat polarizing topic among us DBB-rs, but he showed up to play every single night here. When he struggled to get it going, he found his way to the line. I thought his defense was pretty good. He was a major reason we won 2 without Chauncey, which is a pretty big deal. He apparently was angry with Rasheed for playing buddy-ball with KG (which while I think was in jest, I’m glad somebody effing said something).
Lucas, I wasn’t even really thinking about Perkins on the offensive end, I was thinking of rebounds. just by being big, heavy and there he was able to pull down some massive rebounding games. our jump shooting offense only really works when we get second chances to counteract the discrepancy in the points in the paint. it’s great that sheed can shoot, but it doesn’t really help us to have four people on the perimeter and one fighting for rebounds. we need a big solid center who can rebound tay misses and pass them to rip and chauncey for open threes.
I don’t think Rasheed is going anywhere. I think the Pistons are going to ease him into a Robert Horry+ role (better defense, better post play) and keep him for several more years. Even if you wanted to get rid of Rasheed why not just let him play out his contract and then have his salary available for 2010?
Almost every move Joe D. is contemplating hinges on what he thinks he has in Stuckey. If you think Stuckey is an championship PG then it means one thing. If you think Stuckey is a championship combo guard it means something else. If you think he’s a very nice player, it means something different.
I’ll just add that the Pistons are a weird team. When your center and your point guard both have a problem with taking threes outside the scope of the offense you have some unique personnel problems.
I honestly don’t have a theory, (usually I do after every playoff exit), only because I thought the Pistons did everything right to prepare themselves to make another NBA Finals run. We replenished our bench, we gave the younger guys a chance to play ball, we rested our starters through-out the whole season while maintaining the second-best record in the NBA. With all that done, we still fail? I don’t think just getting rid of Rasheed will change this team, I do think it will have to be a combination of transactions (whether they include Rasheed or not) that will change this team for the better. But obviously, something must be changed.
I’ll repeat a trade idea I had a few weeks ago…
Billups + Rip to Houston for McGrady + Chuck Hayes
Houston
PG - Billups, Rafer Alston
SG - Rip
SF - Battier
PF - Scola, Landry
C - Yao
Detroit
PG - Stuckey, XXXXX, Hunter
SG - McGrady, Afflalo
SF - Prince, Hayes
PF - McDyess, Maxiell, Amir
C - Rasheed, Samb
Aren’t both teams a lot better?
Note: Any trade I ever talk about is purely about talent and salary. I try trades with players I really support (I’ve been a Rip fan since he was a freshman at UConn) because I think you have to make a realistic deal. I’d love to trade Afflalo for Kobe straight up but it’s not happening for a million reasons.
“Same three damn fan requests/media ideas that came after the playoffs for the last 3 years.”
So…you want that fourth year, too? Maybe five years of just running in place? The ultimate goal of every team is to win a championship. If a move can be made that improves the team, you do it. You can’t sit back and reflect on how good we’ve been, and assume it’s going to continue as our front-court gets older and older. Clearly the Pistons think the world of Maxiell and Amir, and have high hopes for Samb, but they need a short-term solution at a power position for the next 2-3 years.
I like Rasheed for many reasons, but if you think trading Rasheed away with the intention of getting better is a “stupid idea,” then nothing will convince you otherwise. I agree that shipping Rasheed out just for the sake of change is utter folly. Yet, he will be 34 at the start of the next season, and he’s not going to get any better. I’d love to cast him in the Horry role, but his contract and skill-set make him one of our most attractive bargaining chips. I know, in some people’s eyes, Rasheed can do no wrong and some fans will constantly forgive him for “getting us over the hump” in ‘04. It’s similar to how Tayshaun will forever live off of The Block. I’m sure this isn’t a news flash for many of you, but sports are about what you’ve done lately. Sorry to hurt anyone’s feelings. We’re all adults here.
Sure,”no player on the pistons is greater than the sum of the parts,” we’ve all heard that before. However, if you can get a better part, one that complements the others well, why not do it? Don’t balk at a move out for nostalgia’s sake.
Two things:
1) Rasheed’s contract expires in 2009 (next year), not 2010.
2) I think the “rest the starters” thing DID work in the regular season - we won 59 games, after all. The problem was that we went away from it in the postseason. The bench was our big advantage over Boston, and we minimized it by playing our starters huge minutes. We were gassed in the 4th quarter on Friday. A little more Stuckey/Maxiell/Amir/Lindsey/Afflalo could’ve helped.
I wouldn’t trade Billups for McGrady straight up.
On Sheed, I definitely think we should entertain offers (and there should be some because of his expiring contract), but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking we can land an Elton Brand, or Amare, or some other young guy. Sheed is one of the most unpopular (among fans) players in the league. It’s a tough sell for a GM to deal a popular guy for Sheed. Remember that when Portland/Atlanta dealt him, we gave up almost nothing in return.
Could the Heat sign and trade Marion? Miami will have some evaluating to do before deciding whether to compete or rebuild, and an expiring contract maintains the requisitie flexibility to make that decision. Sheed would be a useful mentor for Beasley, their presumptive draft choice.
Instead of looking at which of our current players are movable, I think Joe D will look around the league for desirable players and then figure out what is needed to get those moves done. Each of our key players are responsible for our success, and failure. No one guy is to blame, we failed as a team. To me that means you look for a guy that can change the culture in a positive way, and work to get the deal done.
Trade Sheed Now.
Ode to Flip’s Fault
Wake up too early? Flip’s Fault
Stub your toe? Flip’s Fault
Parking ticket? Flip’s Fault
Hangover? Flip’s Fault
No more cereal left? Flip’s Fault
Fly in the chardonnay? Flip’s Fault
Zebra mussels in the Great Lakes? Flip’s Fault
Tigers collapse in the 2006 Series? Flip’s Fault
JFK’s assassination? Flip’s Fault
World War II? Flip’s Fault
Global warming? Flip’s Fault
Black holes? Flip’s Fault
At the end of the day, kick back on your burning franchise porch, and crack open a nice cold Flip’s Fault.
Maybe trading him to the Suns for someone like Stoudemire>>
That is friggen hysterical. Dream on.
I can’t say if we should trade Sheed or not. I think we forget he has done more good than bad while in the D. He still is one of the most underrated players in the NBA. I like the plan of letting him play less and back up Amir and Max. He has a great basketball IQ and all year long there was talk about how great he was for the young guys on the team. He still did a great job on Howard and will still need someone to hold that kid. I am not sure if we should let Flip go now as well. There is not much better out there. My question is can Curry call out players when it is needed it. X’s and O’s are overrated at the pro level. For the most part everyone runs the same thing. Pick and role. The big question is can Curry or whoever the new coach maybe get the most out of this team.I think if Flip leaves now it will hurt the development of Stuckey. To bring in a new coach in his 2nd year will be like starting all over. Johnson is not the answer he lost the Mavs eye the last few years. I hate that LB did not work out. He has been the only coach since Daly that you knew the team was going to play hard and would not make the same mistake over and over. The label that has been plaved on the Pistons has just came about since flip has been here. Its hard to place the blame on him but that is just the way it is. He has won .715 since he was been here. Plus if Billups does not get hurt I really don’t think we lose game 3. He got hurt late in game two and it took him until game 6 to get back on point. i just hope we get a better back up for Tay. He looked beat down in this series. Hayes was not the answer. he could not check anyone on the floor, and when he did get a chance he did not shoot the ball well.The only way we trade Sheed is if he ask for it. Or we get a offer that is to good to turn down. He has been an All Star the last 3 years.
Rasheed is NOT one of the most under-rated players in the NBA any more. I think Sheed is surviving off reputation more than actual production these days. If anything, I’d say he’s over-rated and I’d be happy to see him go. He came to the franchise and did what he did to help us win a championship, but obviously it’s not something they’ve been able to repeat. Time to say thanks for the memories and move on.
‘Sheed got outplayed by Kendrick Perkins in several games. That. Can’t. Happen. ‘Dyess outplayed Garnett a few games and all other things being equal that was the chance the Pistons had to take to beat the Celtics. They didn’t and now they are home.
I will not say that Detroit needs to trade Rip, but what I will say is that the longer Rip and Chauncey are around, the less likely Stuckey will want to re-sign here after his rookie contract is up if he continues his growth into the player we saw this series.
I preached it after the draft last year, during the exhibition season, during the regular season and when the playoffs started. Rip’s value is at an all time high right now. Billups’ value isn’t, Sheed’s value is in his expiring contract, we can’t dump Dyess, Maxiell’s salary doesn’t make him a tradeable asset unless paired with a bigger contract and Amir is basically off limits. Unless we want to have another Memo fiasco where there’s nowhere to play him so he leaves at the end of his rookie deal, it’s time to make a move.
Even if he doesn’t work out in the starting 5, we’ll at least get full value for Rip in a trade, and possible picks. I think Rip for an expiring deal and a lottery pick and future 1st rounders is a deal to make. Get us ready for the large free agent crop coming out in 2010, just like the rest of the league is gearing up for.
Knock down 45-50 wins next season with that rotation and then in ‘10 you sign and trade or outright sign one of the big name free agents and then run starts again.
Our team isn’t going anywhere, as evidenced by the flashes of brilliance put forth by our bench players. Who cares if they don’t make it back to the ECF next season, as long as progress is being made to get back the year after and then again the year after.
The time is going to come back full circle to the point where the balance of power is going to shift back to the East. Boston is going for their trophies now, striking while the iron’s hot. Detroit got theirs in 04, Chicago disappeared… Cleveland will try to improve also… The East is going to load up in the 2010 Free Agent class. Detroit needs to be first in line with their ducks in a row and a team average age of 27-30 in order to make another run when those big name free agents are signed.
the idea of sliding rasheed into a robert horry backup position is intriguing. however, he still plays as too high a level to take a back seat to max and amir. if he’s still here he’ll get priority and we’ll just continue to see diminishing returns. i say we package him with a handful of others and try to land someone big. we have a wealth of bargaining chips, some that we’ve got in suits would be starters on other teams. i see no reason we can’t use all our assets to get rid of our problem child and pick up a monster.
Boney…I’m thinking the same way you are. If we have to take a step back for a couple years by trading a starter or two in order to get cap space for 2010/draft picks/young talented players then we should do that. Unless we can pull off a miracle and trade two starters for someone like Brand/Carmelo (plus other minor plays/picks to make it work out) then we should position our selves to be championship caliber by 2010.
joejoejoe — that was the dumbest trade proposal i’d heard this post-season the first time you made it, and it still is today.
detroit is good. boston is a little better. flip is a good coach but larry brown was more demanding. sheed is a good player but not perfect. if a star forward or center opens up …jump on him. stuckey is reason to be optimistic. let amir play.
stick with the same bench rotation all year.
In other news, Senator Clinton is proposing a bill in Congress which would decree that Detroit actually scored more points than Boston, and that Detroit is better equipped to beat the Lakers in the Finals.
Her count is debatable, since it includes baskets made during pre-game warmups, timeouts, and by small children on the court after the game.
God, she is starting to get to me.
stuckey, affalo, amir, the argentinian guy, maxiel, amir.
clinton will be gone fishin soon too.
g - thanks for your support!
Let’s not let get sidetracked by political stuff. There are enough political sites. Not enough places for good NBA discussion.
it’s a shame that flip has done such an awful job running hilary’s campaign. if she would just put amir on meet the press she’d lock up those superdelegates in no time. Clinton/Johnson in 2008!
I’m going to put in the 2004 DVD and grab some popcorn. Anyone else?
Typical Rob Parker column today, entitled “Saunders shouldn’t take all the blame,” when the piece essentially argues that he should.
If only we had Webber, right Rob?
As far as coaching, we went from bad cop to good cop, so who’s the new bad cop gonna be? If he is fired.
@g: I agree.
@Kevin S.
If Chicago takes Rose, that might be a distinct possibility.
@kyle:
Even if Clinton announced Amir as her running mate, I’d still want to kick her in the balls. Obama/Maxiell ‘08!
Boney, Chauncey’s contract is done by the time Stuckey’s rookie contract is over. Dumars always thinks ahead. Rip will be done be then too.
Billups for Bynum
This wont work $ wise but is a great way to start rebuilding if that is the way they are goning. If the lakers can make it to the finals with out Bynum they might be willing to let him go and then deroit can rebuild with a great back to the basket player.
After watching this DVD for only 10 minutes, I know what we need for next season:
Elden Campbell
Darvin Ham
Corliss Williamson
Consider us champs in 09.
Garrett - Mehmet Okur is a free agent in 2010!
@ mike payne
that’s a ticket i’d vote for, but you know the ron paul/amir johnson people would just never shut the hell up.
Trade idea that I wonder what you guys think about:
Sheed in a sign and trade for Biedrins (his contract would have to be around 8.4 mil unless its done early enough that GS still have cap room since they will only have 6 players under contract once the salary season ends) and money (again to make it work)
Darko holding his limp, broken wrist while the team celebrates in ‘04: Priceless.
@Matt Gibson:
I’ve brought that trade up a lot this season, even before our collapse. He’s a restricted free agent this season, so I’ve been suggesting we try to pry him from GS with a nice contract.
Here’s what I said about Biedrins on Saturday on the “brief thoughts” thread:
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2008-05-31/brief-thoughts/#comment-138571
I’m a huge biedrins fan, I think he has the potential of being a top 3 center in this league, alongside Howard and Oden. Take his career stats with a grain of salt– playing for the Schizophrenic Nellie, he goes from starting to the bench to starting, all based on opponent size. In DET, he’d be capable of averaging 22/12 with 1 spb and 2.5 bpg.
http://www.bleacherreport.com/articles/26407-Detroit-Pistons-Dynasty-Flips-Over-Sees-Philadelphia-Eagles-in-Mirror-310508
This was great, right up until the Avery Johnson part.
PLEASE TRADE RASHEED AND FIRE FLIP THEY THREW THE TEAM AND THE FANS UNDER THE BUS! WE NEED TO HIRE BILL LAIMBEER AND BRING ALONG RICK MAHORN! THE PISTONS NEED A IN YOUR FACE COACH MIKE CURRY IS TOO, NICE TO COACH THE PISTONS IT WOULD BE A JOKE! IF THAT WOULD HAPPEN! DON’T GET ME WRONG I LIKE MIKE CURRY AS A PERSON BUT NOT AS A COACH! THEY SAY NICE GUYS FINISH LAST!!!!! AND THIS PISTONS TEAM NEED A COACH THAT WOULD BE HARD ON THEM AND MAKE THEM PLAY ALL THE TIME NOT SOMETIMES AS A FAN I SHOULD GET MY MONEYS WORTH!!
http://www.bleacherreport.com/articles/26593-Pistons-must-keep-Saunders-find-a-center-010608
This was good, except for the whole keep Flip Saunders part.
http://www.bleacherreport.com/articles/26549-Carmelo-Anthony-in-Detroit-How-Everything-Could-Come-Full-Circle-010608
No.
http://www.bleacherreport.com/articles/26411-NBA-Pistons-Takes-And-Finals-Musings-310508
“Tayshawn?”
*backhand*
Due to his masterful use of all caps, I am completely convinced by what ever it is that Mr. Capel said.
Well, we haven’t seen Fred W Capel in months– but its nice to know your keyboard is still broken, buddy.
I POSTED THIS ON THE STUCKEY THREAD, BUT COPIED IT HERE BECAUSE I THINK IT APPLIES AND IS AN IMPORTANT POINT:
I agree (again) with V. An outside shot and improved ballhandling skills.
But, I would add one more thing. A good PR person. Stuckey has the type of game and looks that have the potential to make him the kind of star the Pistons have lacked since Grant Hill left.
Ben made for a great face for the franchise because he was about hard work and it gave the Pistons that identity.
Right now, Sheed is the face of the franchise and it’s a bad, bad thing. His foul-mouthed antics have become what NBA fans and the media think about when they think about the Pistons. And it’s no surprise that David Stern goes out of his way to not market this team.
More than anything, the disturbing thing about this playoffs was that in the Pistons 50th anniversary year, and after Isiah’s speech about how the Pistons were in the conversation of great NBA franchisees, the NBA Finals commercials featured clips of the Lakers (Magic), Celtics (Bird), Spurs (Duncan) and sometimes the Bulls (Jordan).
I’m sure much of this has to do with Isiah and Rodman having bad reputations now, but it’s clear that the Pistons ARE NOT in the conversation of great franchises. And I think an image overhaul is as important has anything else.
I think Stuckey could be the key to this.
@QD:
+10 for a new angle, I like your line of thinking.
I’m going to have to disagree that Stuckey is The Guy though. There is the obvious reason that Stuckey is still a gamble, a flip of the coin, a bet on black. He could turn out to be a perennial all-star, the next Dwyane Wade, one of the top PGs in the East. But there’s a chance he could not improve at all, just wind up a shadow of Devin Harris that’ll end up making his rounds around the NBA, collecting a mid-level exception at best. Point being, while we are fortunate enough to watch him closely and see him blossom in front of our eyes, yet we do not know his limit.
Second, and this is much harder to prove and quantify, but I don’t know if Stuckey is cut out for the spotlight. I take a little too much pride in my ability to read people, figure them all out before a word is spoken. 28 years into life, it has served me well and very rarely has it failed. I am likely to take a lot of flack for saying this, but I see Stuckey as a few All Star showings away from being a poor man’s Stephon Marbury…
In other words, I think Stuck’s personality may not translate to the humble, cereal box star that sells sneakers on TV and baskets on the hardwood. Kid’s got the look, no doubt, but the star quality ends on the floor. Unfortunately, I see Stuckey moving to arrogance before true humility, the kind that Grant Hill seemed to exume. Thoughts?
Completely unrelated to my last comment, I just shared an “absolute fucking best case scenario” with my buddy via email, re: the Detroit Pistons. Here’s what I had to say:
1) Flip, Avery, Michael, it doesn’t really matter much. Each have their values– although fresh blood like Avery could be all the difference himself (yet you can expect blowback from the Pistons vets against new, demanding coaching)
2) As JackDutch suggested, trade Hamilton, plus Mcdyess or otherwise to Denver for Allen Iverson. My first instinct when reading JD’s post was: “that’s retarded”. Later, I realized that Wallace would expire after that season and Iverson could leave after 1, giving DET a HUGE bank for a 2010 free agent signing. And imagine how much impact Iverson could have on Stuck!
3) All of us Pistons fans send $10 to William Davidson, and we BEG him to offer a max contract to Golden State’s restricted free agent Andris Biedrins. GS cant’ afford Monta Ellis, Baron Davis and Andris Biedrins all at the same time, as they’re at the end of their contracts. We’re in an unique position to screw Golden State with a max contract for Biedrins. Anyone who doesn’t know Biedrins, I can sum up his value with this: he’s a seven foot, offensive minded Ben Wallace who holds the season record in field goal percentage and rebounds in a single game.
Starters:
PG) Chauncey Billups
SG) Allen Iverson
SF) Tayshaun Prince
PF) Rasheed Wallace
C) Andris Biedrins
Bench:
PG) Rodney Stuckey
SG) Aaron Afflalo
SF) Walter Herrmann
PF) Maxiell / Amir (maxiell might go to Denver for Iverson)
C) Amir/Samb/Ratliff
There is a 1 in one brazillian chance of this happening. If it did, the Pistons wouldn’t even have to show up to the playoffs. The regular season would end, Stern would hand us the championship, and Rasheed would demand a handjob. It’d be brilliant.
MP, Stuckey doesn’t need personality. He needs a PR person to set him up with an actress from a hit ABC show.
And while I think Stuckey has the talent to be the man, I think he’s a couple years away.
*agree that he’s a couple years away and not a lock.
Mike, c’mon, man, what you said was you’re 28 and you know everything. I’m closing in on 50 and am still learning, and in my profession, I’m near the top of my craft.
Generally speaking, it’s well accepted that you’re going to see everything you’re going to need about a NBA player by the end of his third year in the league. Stuckey has played half a season and had a baptism by fire in the playoffs and exceeded expectations. Who knows what the future will bring, but I’m liking his upside, and unlike a recent first rounder, Darko, his actions on court speak louder than his words. We’ve addressed what he needs to work on. But if he delivers on that, then I have no doubt he’s going to be a special player. So, I’m not quite seeing what you’re seeing, or not seeing. His poise stands out, if you ask me.
The other thing, we’re not moving anyone*, especially for AI. We’ve been there/done that already.
*How about a three-teamer involving Sheed, some draft picks, Elton Brand and the Bobcats’ first rounder? That’s certainly less unrealistic than some of the other proposed deals out there…
allen “ballhog” iverson?
i don´t want him on my team and i don´t want stuck to learn from him.
LMFAO @ some of the suggestions so far. I’m looking forward to a rebuild of this great team, regardless of the decisions made. Joey D won’t let us down. As long as you forget about the Darko thing. And Chris Webber. And Nazir. And Flip.
Oh, and a large “BOOOOO!” for Curry. I don’t think he’d blend well with our franchise. Although probably unlikely, Bill Laimbeer as coach would make me cream in my pants.
seems to me that stuckey showed the intangible of cool at crunch time in these playoffs. that is a pretty important quality. remember the three in game 5? he showed flashes of great d with key steals. nice touch on jumpers. willingness to go to the hoop. sometimes he scored. regularly got the foul. this is the place where he will improve even more. he has more size and a better jump shot than devin harris. no darko here. he is the biggest positive of the season.
Rasheed’s last days?
I vote no. Our rotation works out pretty well as it is. As Dyess and Sheed get older (and hopefully take lower contracts), Max and Amir work themselves in as the replacements. They can learn from the veterans, as it seems that Max has already picked up quite a few tips on the offensive end. We keep looking outside the organization for the answers, but I think the continued development of Stuckey, Max, Amir, and Affalo really does more for us than any player on the outside could.
And regarding Flip - the biggest continual complaints against him are failures in the playoffs, playing the youngsters, too much reliance on jumpers, and “the switch.” But look at his improvements this year. It wasn’t a flame out. We played the youngsters…until the playoffs. Stuckey gives us a guy who can get to the hoop. And not very many coaches have what it takes to make this team play hard when they’re not wanting to. I really think Flip is the best coach we can ask for right now.
So basically Shinons, Detroit is to make no changes what-so-ever for a championship run next year. Brilliant!
I think that the biggest problem in the playoffs this year was Rip, not Sheed. He think’s he’s Kobe, complains just as much as anyone, flops like manu, and his shot really wasn’t going down. Though what I blame Flip mostly for was that tie he wore in game 5. That thing looked like the 80’s threw up on his shirt.
Anyway, Rip’s been downhill in my mind for the last 2 years.
Either way, use the trade to get some draft picks and let’s get a slick young SG. I’m liking this kid if we can move up: http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/nicolasbatum.html
Do y’all have eyes on anyone else in the draft?
Biedrins is a very intriguing possibility. As mad as some folks are at ‘Sheed (and I’m not as mad as many seem to be), we have to understand that getting rid of him would leave a HUGE hole in the team. He’s our only legit starting center — no, Johnson isn’t close to being ready to start. Dyess is old and relatively short, Maxiell is short, and god help us if Ratliff is our starting center. So if we give up ‘Sheed, we better be able to find a good starting center somehow.
@V:
“Mike, c’mon, man, what you said was you’re 28 and you know everything. I’m closing in on 50 and am still learning, and in my profession, I’m near the top of my craft.”
You’re right, maybe I should have kept that to myself
@QuickDarshan:
“MP, Stuckey doesn’t need personality. He needs a PR person to set him up with an actress from a hit ABC show.”
In my next life, remind me to hire a PR person to set me up with an actress from a hit ABC show.
(I’m kidding, I couldn’t ask for more than I already have)
Stuckey’s got poise, he’s got a camera-friendly look, he’s we’ll spoken, he seems smart. Maybe I was just overstating some gut-based concerns that are too early to share…
@Joejoejoe:
I actually like the McGrady trade, I’m not sure why some of the same people who piss & moan about his back spasms also praise Arnie Kander’s god-like healing touch, but it is what it is.
My thought was moving sheed and rip for McGrady and someone who matches salaries from Houston.
@”The Iverson supporters”
I’ve already mentioned my general disinterest in getting Iverson and being severely undersized on offesne aside, if one of our biggest problems is complacency, then do we really want a guy who’s just “talkin bout practice?”
@”Andres Biedrins supporters”
I know very little about this guy, so I’m intrigued to learn more. Personally, if we’re looking to get a young center, I wouldn’t mind seeing what we could do for Emeka Okafor. He wouldn’t be the best center out there to get, but if we front load our scoring into the back court in off-season trades, then we’d be looking for nothing more than post play, rebounds, and defense which is exactly what Okafor brings to the table.
Sheed for Yao & Johnson for Scola…………. I think this would be a better trade to increase Pistons rebound and points per game.
None of the alternatives make me excited. T-Mac? Peaked 6 years ago. Iverson? I love AI, but he doesn’t fit in. The only thing that works is sticking with the road we’re on. If something good comes along, go for it. I don’t see any point in blowing it up for some past-his-prime “superstar.” If we can get a discount on Michael Redd, Richard Jefferson, Jermaine O’Neal, or someone else on that level, then sure. Then again, adding Shaq sure did help Phoenix…
@Bloomen and rip haters in general,
don’t understand people’s hate of rip. he’s cocky? everyone on this team is except dyess. look at chauncey’s constant insistence that whenever we lose, we were still the better team. he complains to the refs? in case you haven’t noticed, that’s how you get the refs to send you to the line more in this league.
meanwhile, in the series against boston he shot more than anyone else and still shot 53%. he averaged only one fewer assist per game than chauncey. he made 91% of his free throws. he averaged more than a block and a steal a game. essentially he was our best player on the court. if you think he’s been declining, i have no idea what metrics you’re using to judge other than your own non-production related biases.
have i mentioned he also averaged more rebounds per game than maxiell in the entire playoffs? what the hell are you talking about?
I’d much rather have a proven big man like Brand, Okafor, or Boozer (in that order) than an inconsistent big man from a skewed Golden State offense. They take so many shots and have so many rebounding opportunities that my 1-year old boy could probably grab 3 or 4 boards if he played for them. I don’t think Biedrins has proven himself to be a consistent talent like the other 3 I mentioned, so I’d be a bit more leery to give him a shot, but that’s just me.
iverson, t-mac? are we really that desperate? the last thing the pistons need is an injury plagued prima donna. find a center who actually plays center and averages 8-10 rebounds and 8-10 points in the paint per game. hell, we may already have that in amir. i don’t want some selfish, over the hill ex-”superstar” screwing up my team. i’m sure this won’t happen though. joe learned his lesson with chris webber.
oh, and please add jermaine o’neal to the “injury plagued prima donna sweepstakes.” how many games has he actually played in the last few seasons? is he legally still considered a professional basketball player?
@Kyle,
I’m with you, my friend. I’m high on Rip, proud of what he did in the post-season, and would hate to lose him.
I do recognize, as you probably do as well, that he is a top bargaining chip if Joe does decide to make a move. While I love Rip, no one is off the table when it comes to trades at this point, at least in my mind.
@The Anti-Iversons
The whole case FOR Iverson is his contract. It expires at the end of next season. So we pick him up for a hail mary year and then let his contract expire. With Rasheed and Iverson expiring at the same time, Detroit has a $30+ million dollar salary surplus to play with in 2010.
yeah, he’s a ball hog, yeah, he’s arrogant, yeah, he’s talkin’ about practice, man. but imagine taking on a $19 million expiring contract + sheed’s expiring contract? with that kind of money, we could sign Manu Ginobili to a $15 million / yr. contract just so we can sit him on the end of our bench and throw pennies at him. I hate manu ginobili.
Amir Johnson playing 20-25 minutes per game for us would be equally good as Andris Biedrins so there is no reason to have 2 slim, energy full players on roster competing for 1 niche. Lets just allow Amir to develop!
Biedrins is an intruiging player, but he’s not worth a max contract in my opinion. The only players worth max contracts are guys like Kobe, Lebron, CP3, Deron Williams, Duncan etc. Can’t we only offer Biedrins (or anybody else) our mid level? I think we’d only be able to get him if Golden State did a sign and trade.
We need to acquire another player who can break down the defense (or a low post presence who requires double teams) to team with Stuckey. Our lack of ability to create our own shots off the dribble (or shots for others) has been our biggest issue in the playoffs these last 3 years.
@Mike Payne, oh yeah, Rip is in no way off the table.
i also understand the iverson contract idea, but i’d have a real hard time supporting the team if he was on it. he disgusts me. at least ginobili is a team player.
Lots of crazy talk being spread around so I’m gonna add to it. If we’re looking to upgrade for a true center, then there’s not alot of options available. Biedrins is nice but I wouldn’t trust any player coming out of GS.
WHAT ABOUT CHRIS KAMAN? This year he proved that he can consistenly score down low and that he’s a monster on the boards. He’s a local product and only 26. The downside is that he’s guaranteed $12.2 million in 2011 and has had some injuries in the past. The bonus jackpot upside is that he plays for the Clippers. Their own would have to be excited thinking about bringing in Sheed’s entertainment and expiring contract. Hopeful excited enough to throw in an extra piece… maybe Al Thornton or Corey Magette (either with his option or some kind of sign & trade) or a pick. Its a risk but it could come out golden.
I also like CTown’s suggestion from way early in the post… wait until you find a quality player available for trade and THEN see who could be sent for him. JoeD has alot of flexibility if he plans on blowing it up and you just never know when someone like Gasol can be bought for peanuts and Kwame Brown.
Kyle - McGrady is younger than every Piston starter not named Tayshaun Prince.
Re: McGrady in general
I’m in the Orlando media market and other than wanting out of a bad situation (Orlando hired a minor league hockey guy as GM!) McGrady always gave a good effort with the Magic. He got brought in to be wingman to Grant Hill and ended up being the face of a franchise in a small conservative market at age 21. His “second round” comments were stupid but they’ve been blown way out of proportion and made into a kind of media game. If making a stupid comment prevented you from being on the Pistons roster they couldn’t put 5 players on the court. McGrady is a smart, good guy. I think he would thrive being in the Pistons organization.
I know it’s not the conventional wisdom but I think McGrady is a good guy, a great talent, who has been unfairly criticized. I don’t understand why if David Robinson has back trouble it’s an injury but if Tracy McGrady has back trouble he’s a malingerer. Are we supposed to kill the guy for not getting past Utah in the first round with no Yao and an injured Rafer Alston? Most of the guys he was playing with wouldn’t have dressed for the Pistons.
joejoejoe, i never meant to call him old, i should have said “past his prime” instead of “over the hill.” either way, with all the other options out there I don’t see why we’d want to pick up a player with a well known, chronic and often debilitating injury. one of the main reasons we’ve had as much success as we’ve had is our lack of injuries. i’m not interested in the “let’s roll the dice and hope he’s healthy when we need him” philosophy of the houston rockets.
and just because he’d be younger than the other starters doesn’t mean he’s young or phsyically sound. it just means that the rest of our starters are old. not to mention that our older starters still play more games per season than mcgrady has been able to handle. he’s simply not a sound investment.
JesseC hit the nail on the head.
Joe shouldn’t trade Rasheed, he should let his contract expire. I agree with the Houston trade, but instead I would trade Rip & Tay for Mcgrady. Detroit would have enough money to go after Okafor if they go without signing their current free agents. They would even have enough money to sign someone like Kareem Rush and Josh Childress (Both free Agents)
PG Billups
SG McGrady
SF Childress
PF Wallace
C Okafor
You already know the bench + Kareem Rush
We’d get the same scoring ability out of T-Mac as we currently get out of Rip, only we’d get more assists and more rebounds. Not to mention a player who attacks the basket rather than runs around in circles for 15 seconds which ultimately hinders the offense.
He reached his scoring potential back in 03-04 not because that was his best year ever but because that and the year before he had absolutely NO support so he HAD to score that many points.
His points have dropped in Houston each year because Houston has done a good job at adding supporting cast members and developing young talent to take some of the scoring load off of T-Mac’s shoulders.
How is T-Mac a prima donna anyways? I don’t think the guy takes anything for granted, he plays as hard as he can and is realizing that it takes more than playing hard to win in the playoffs…it takes teammates who are healthy.
And again, you people ballwash (myself included) Arnie Kander and the amazing things he can do and yet you cite McGrady’s back problems as a clear reason to not make a trade for him.
How many of you were saying the same thing about McDyess and his knees or Chris Webber and his ankle/knees/hips/back/shoulders/prostate/epiglotis issues? I’m not saying that T-Mac is exactly what we should do, but that given the right circumstance, I think the Pistons could be very very good with T-Mac and McDyess driving this team to a championship. McDyess wants a ship more than all the other starters combined which says something about our problems getting to the finals. If your players don’t truly want it, you won’t get there, and IMO, that’s why we’ve failed the past three years.
I should mention that I’m specifically not tearing into other people’s ideas because most of them have their merits and also create an interesting and enticing change to the team.
I think just as JesseC said, we all realize that Joe D. shouldn’t start shopping his players, but allow other teams come to him. Teams will come, and some will make more interesting offers than others.
This team is a great regular season team, so in my mind, Joe D. has until next season’s trade deadline to make the right move.
pass on TMac, no offense to anyone.
CNNSi’s rumor section reports that Chicago may have interest in Rip and mentions that Gordon or/and Deng might be available.
I doubt Deng would want to be an off the bench guy, and neither does Ben Gordon. Could a swap of a signed and traded Deng/#1 overall for Rip/2008 #1 and then 2009 #1 be in store? Make that move, take a Michael Beasley… move Sheed for a SG and picks… jesus, I scare myself sometimes.
I’d make that move in a heartbeat. Of course, the Bulls fans might not… but you have to remember, this is John Paxson we’re talking about.
For those of you that don’t remember, I did forecast Andrew Miller/Cameron Maybin for Miguel Cabrera this winter…
Kyle - You make good points.
In terms of an investment, McGrady’s contract would be off the books in two years if it doesn’t work out, same as Rip, and two years earlier than Chauncey. Chuck Hayes (required to make the salaries work) is a useful chip as a backup SF/PF, a kind of poor man’s Shane Battier.
Houston is not going to give up Chuck Hayes. In their eyes he’s our Amir Johnson or Jason Maxiell.
He’s almost as untradeable as Yao Ming.
Rip can opt out after next season, no?
Flip’s staying, according to McCoskey/ Ball Don’t Lie:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie
Boney - Chuck Hayes is going to be 25 next week and he averaged 18 minutes in the playoffs even with a depleted Houston roster. As a 6-6 PF with a limited offensive game I’d say Chuck Hayes’s potential isn’t quite the same as the the 6′-11″ 21 year old Amir Johnson.
I also think the Rockets have Carl Landry ahead of Hayes on the depth chart (making Hayes #3 behind Scola and Landry) so I’m sure they would move Hayes if they need to to make a deal work out. That said, Hayes is a good effort player on a very cheap deal so there would be no incentive to trade him unless the Rockets really wanted the other players.
somewhat off-topic, but here’s a request for Matt or another person with the game on DVR:
I don’t have Game 6 on DVR, but I’d be really, really interested in seeing the final 10 minutes or so of Game 6 being broken down, almost possession-by-possession.
That is, with about 10 minutes to go, Detroit had a 10-pt lead. HOW did we lose that lead? Was it poor coaching (failure to identify mismatches & make some substitutions?) Was it poor shot selection (a few too many outside jumpers from Chauncey/Rip/Rasheed?). Was the shot selection fine and our guys just missed some make-able & good looks? Was it down to concentration lapses & silly turnovers?
Anyhow, the moment at which I just *knew* we had tossed it away came somewhat early, I think at 74-74 or maybe 74-75, when Rasheed allowed *Rondo* to pressure him and tip his perimeter pass for an easy Boston transition score.
All the talk about firing Flip or blowing this team up with trades is certainly reasonable, but I really feel like had just *one* or *two* moments happened differently early in that 4th quarter, we would have seen a Game 7 in Boston. And who can say how that would have turned out?
By the way — even if we were *that* close with this current roster, I definitely believe some off-season moves would be a good idea, starting with sending ‘Sheed on his way. He really deserted us in the ECF, and his antics are growing old.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=20902
SportsNation Bill Simmons: One more thing on the Pistons: What happened to those fans????? They used to have one of the best crowds in the league - now you’re banging Thundersticks and wearing white T-shirts and clamming up when your team falls behind? What happened to the fans who used to throw beers on opposing players and charge on the court to fight them? Deeee-troit Basssssssketball has gone soft. You need to do some soul-searching this summer.
sauce1977:
Fuck you, Bill Simmons. The whole league jumped on Detroit in November of 2004 when Artest and the Pacers went crazy in our house. Since then, we’ve made great effort to be a ‘clean’ environment, and now we get “soft?”
Just fuck you, you asshole. You and everyone else were probably conveniently forgetting about all the fights that went on over the last 15 years in the sport and just wanted another chance to throw a pot-shot at our top ten market.
I hope Kevin Garnett breaks his fucking leg and your wife leaves you. You’re a no good piece of shit.
I…hate…Bill…Simmons…
ahh, the NBA, where swearing at a camera man makes rasheed unmarketable, but calling a whole crowd of dejected fans “f’ing fa@@ots” makes garnett david stern’s wet dream and the heir apparent to larry bird. i love my team. i hate the nba.
Thunderstix at the Palace pre-date the Ron Artest fight.
Also, every playoff game I went to this year was loud as hell, and yet I saw some people complaining who watched on TV that it wasn’t. This isn’t college, fans don’t stand up and scream their head off the entire game (Golden State circa 2007 being the exception), but the Palace is still as raucous as most NBA arenas come playoff time.
good call Kyle
At least we can content ourselves with watching Kobe & co stomp all over the ring-chasing trio, no?
At least, that’s my solid prediction.
J, I can tell you exactly the reason. Turnovers. Posey deflected two Rip passes (plus, the heady steal on Tayshaun). Then, there’s the Sheed turnover you mentioned. That’s four right there. Boston just clamped down defensively.
But, you do make a point that a play or two here and there and it’s not the completely annihilation that it feels like right now.
In Game 5, Garnett hit three fadeaway 20+ footers to beat the shot clock. That’s 7 points on three possessions where the Pistons played great defense.
In Game 6, Stuckey and Chauncey hit two shots a hair late. That’s 5 points.
Don’t want to make too much of that because you have no idea how that will affect (or not affect) a game, of course.
Kyle, when did Garnett say this?
QD — you have to read lips for KG’s message to the crowd:
http://ballhype.com/video/note_to_tnt_don_t_slow_mo_garnett/
whoa, whoa, whoa, kyle. what did kg say to our fans? how did i not hear about this?
Also, that was in the Cavs series.
joejoejoe, my bad…I confused Carl Landry with Chuck Hayes…
QD — good answer. God, I think I had blocked out that hideous moment when Posey caught Prince napping. That, in fact, might have been when a little voice in my head began chirping “We’re doooomed!”
And you’re right about those shot-clock-beating Js from KG in Game 5. Tweak just one or two tiny aspects of Games 5 and 6, and it could easily have been 4-2 the other way.
Alas, however, in the world of “what if” nearly every team is a would-be champion. And if we want to be an actual champion, I think Joe D is going to need to have a busy summer on the phone.
I could honestly see Joe D. making minimal moves during the summer and saving his big ticket trades for later in next season. He’s a patient man and certain deals may be more enticing later on down the road than they are in the off-season.
I’m glad to see that I’m not the only pro biedrins guy but the okafor talk I want to address. Yes, it’d be great to get him but I think thats less likely. I thought biedrins since GS has baron and monta and a half a roster to sign and Sheed fits the warriors with his three chucking and can be good defensively which would be a change for them.
Okafor though I dont know if Charlotte would want sheed and I think they love Okafor.
Boney- the number 1 pick? That would be realllly surprising if that happened and if it did I say get Rose. Rose is better than Beasley and then we can just put Stuck at SG. Chauncey can be moved/ be a mentor for a season or two. Beasley just doesnt fit a number 1 overall big man pick. Hes not dominate defensively and thats something you should get out of a number 1 guy for bigs.
OH and I still think Childress would be a great fit off the bench if he would sign for the mle
@Matt Gibson
It’d likely be easier to move ‘Sheed for Okafor than it would for Biedrins. Biedrins has one more year on his contract, and Detroit could get him just by opening up our wallets. He’s worth more than a mid-level exception, I believe he’s worth $10mil/year. I’ve watched Biedrins closely for the past two years, had him on my fantasy squads, watched his every game. The only knock on Biedrins is that he plays for Nellie…
A trade of Rasheed for Biedrins doesn’t make sense to me in terms of contracts. Why trade an expiring contract for an expiring contract? GS gets to let more money expire, and they need money. But if I were them, I’d let Baron Davis go in a heartbeat and focus equal energy on keeping Biedrins and Ellis. They do, however, really need a tall, defensive minded PF. Sheed would fit precisely what they need, but not at the expense of Biedrins. I think the only way we’d get Biedrins is if we paid him more than what GS could afford. It would make sense for Biedrins to come to Detroit– because he’d be guaranteed 35+, not the start-this-game-sit-the-next style of 27 minutes he played in Golden State…
I’d roll the dice on Biedrins in a heartbeat, that guy will be unreal.
Also, I just saw this news, which makes Biedrins slightly more available:
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2008/6/1/543591/nellie-returns-for-08-09
why not trade rip and tayshaun for carmelo anthony, and move stuckey to the SG position. and then trade rasheed for elton brand or emeka okafor and maybe add someone like keith bogans or jason kappono to the bench who are two really good three point shooters
that way our starting lineup will look like this
PG-Chauncey Billups
SG-Rodney Stuckey
SF-Carmelo anthony
PF-Antonio macdyess
C-Elton Brand/emeka okafor
haha and with this lineup plus max,amir,afflalo,kapono/bogans,ratliff and hermann coming off the bench it should be another ring for the pistons..
Richard– why not just trade Chauncey for Chris Paul, Rip for Kobe, Tay for Marion, Sheed for Duncan and McDyess for Howard? That way our starting lineup would look like this
PG-Chris Paul
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-Shawn Marion
PF-Tim Duncan
C-Dwight Howard
haha and with this lineup plus james,yao,chamberlain,jordan/russel,bird and thomas coming off the bench it should be another ring for the pistons..
(sorry for going asshole overboard, i got started and couldn’t stop)
Mike Payne:
Biedrins is a free agent THIS summer. So he has to be resigned right now and thats why I think a deal of 8.5 mil plus money for Sheed could happen since that would work salary wise and my previous reasons for it to work.
Not sure if I follow you, Matt Gibson– are you suggesting Golden State sign and trade Biedrins for Rasheed?
ya. Since we can’t offer him more than the mle, that would be the only way to get him, unless of course he only wants the mle.