From Chris McCosky in the Detroit News:
We were all wrong. All of us who speculated that the Pistons’ loss in Game 6 to Boston spelled the end of Flip Saunders’ coaching life in Detroit were wrong.
Saunders met briefly with Pistons president Joe Dumars on Saturday and all indications are that he was told he will be back.
Understand that with the Pistons, a coach’s job security can change in an instant, but as of today, the plan is for Saunders to finish out the final year of his contract. He’s already working on next season. He will supervise a workout of draft candidates at the practice facility Wednesday.
If true, I’m not disappointed — there aren’t any available candidates to replace him that would make this decision a no-brainer, and he did exceed everyone’s expectations by developing the bench in the regular season (he just forgot to use it in the playoffs …)
As I said before, though, I’m nervous about a lame duck coach sharing the locker room with Rasheed Wallace, so this might seal the deal that Wallace is on his way out. That said, I’m wrong a lot, and Dumars tends to buck conventional wisdom in favor of staying trained on the big picture.
The Pistons won 59 games, the third-best record in franchise history. This isn’t a time for rash decisions, and if teams interested in Wallace are only offering 50 cents on the dollar because they think Dumars is backed into a corner, well, it’s just not going to happen. Either way, stay tuned. This will be interesting.
Other opinions:
Brian Spencer from Empty the Bench
Kelly Dwyer from Ball Don’t Lie
Marcel Mutoni at SLAM
Update: Matt Dery of WDFN remains convinced Saunders is gone (via Full-Court Press):
I was online this morning and read Chris’ piece in the Detroit News today about the Pistons and Flip Saunders. It stated that Flip may be back after all after meeting with Joe Dumars over the weekend. I just don’t see that happening. I know Flip may have told Chris that, and heck, maybe Saunders believes it, but I would be so stunned beyond stunned if he returned as coach. Whether you like Saunders or not, he has failed to get the team to where they need to go and Joe knows it, Scott Perry knows it and Mr D knows it. We all know it. Maybe Dumars told Flip he is not going to make a change right now and for him to continue on with drilling draft prospects in the next few weeks, but that still does not mean anything. It happens all the time in sports, the dreaded “vote of confidence” or “no move means status quo” bit..
Granted, it doesn’t look like Dery has any sources, but WDFN is the flagship station of the Pistons, and unlike most talk radio guys spouting off from afar, Dery is at the arena every game and is as plugged in as most reporters.
2nd Update: A. Sherrod Blakely also remains unconvinced:
This season had a disappointing ending, just like Carlisle’s final season did. Despite racking up a bunch of wins, Saunders found himself being second-guessed all season by fans publicly and players privately, just like Carlisle. And when Saunders left for the summer, he felt as though he would be back, just like Carlisle.
Not only did Carlisle expect to be back, but there were preliminary talks about a contract extension.
It’s unclear if such discussions have taken place between the Pistons and Saunders, but returning without one would be difficult and awkward for all involved.
The difference, as Blakely goes on to note, is that Larry Brown, an unquestionably superior coach, became available. No such option exists on the market to replace Flip … yet.
Its funny, I thought after this loss I’d officially call for Flip’s head. While I do question some moves, lineups and other strategies in the last series, I ended up coming out of the season with a respect for Flip. Up until this point, I was a Flip defender, but didn’t claim to be a DBB Flip bandwagoner. If Flip stays, I’ll be happy. LB and others, is there a seat for me on the Flipmobile?
would they let Flip interview with the Bulls? please?
McCoskey has the REAL inside scoop. He really knows what’s happening, unlike the rest of you worthless peon fans. We aren’t good enough to carry McCoskey’s laundry. All hail the great and powerful McCoskey! Pay no attention to the mustache behind that curtain!
…Should I point out at this point that there are tons of other journalists who are saying the 180-degree opposite? Nah, probably not. Wouldn’t want McCockey to beat me up.
While I do respect Flip Saunders more now than I did before the season began, I realy don’t understand why Dumars isn’t making a hard push for Avery Johnson. Johnson’s defensive mind-set would mesh very well with the Pistons, much better than Saunders’ coaching style has. Johnson also seems like the kind of coach who could fire up his squad, which is a tool Saunders lacks. And although Johnson and Saunders have similarly poor track records in the playoffs, Johnson HAS made it to the NBA finals with the Mavs. Maybe I don’t know a ton about Avery Johnson, but it seems to me his style would fit in perfectly with the Pistons, much better than Saunders’ has. Does anyone see something that I don’t?
Yeah, winning all those games with a talented Dallas club and getting bounced in the 1st round 2 straight years while losing your team’s confidence each time is better than Flip Saunders.
Every Dallas fan I’ve talked to says the last days of Avery Johnson dating from the argument with Cuban . . . pretty ugly. Not that he wasn’t thrown under the bus, but he sure as hell didn’t do any better there with a comparable team.
I might be in the minority here, but if the choice is Sheed or Flip, I’m going with Sheed.
The best case for a Sheed trade will be an extended/re-signed Elton Brand who’s coming back from a knee injury. I’d rather roll the dice with Avery Johnson or Curry than role the dice with that.
Who’s to say that Sheed in the final year of his contract isn’t a lame duck power forward? Whoever is the coach, I’m sure the plan will be to throw Amir in the deep end the way Stuckey was this year.
While I don’t fawn over Amir like many on this site, I’m happy with the strides he made this year on becoming a good rebounder. Maxiell dropped 20 lbs in last off-season and shown phenomenal growth. I have confidence that Amir will add some of the bulk that Maxiell dropped and will take another step in his progression.
My only thing with Flip is…..
Yea he developed our bench/rested our starters during the season.
We won 59 games because our bench, our young players were very productive, consistently.
In the playoffs, we barely used that bench that made us one of the best teams during the season. Thus is why I am not a fan of Flip Saunders.
His excuse for not playing Afflalo was inexperience( a guy that played four years @ UCLA, took UCLA to two Final Fours, won PAC-10 player of the year) yet Stuckey was SOOOO very good(a guy that played two seasons at division 2 Eastern Wash.)
We had no energy consistently through-out the playoffs….yet Amir Johnson got NO PT…..Yea, Flips excuse again, experience….and Amir does get thrown around alil….but there was no better hussler, shot blocker and rebounder for us….. Our shooting was HORRIBLE…..yet our two best shooters….J. Hayes and again, Afflalo, never saw the court.
To conclude, Flip’s major reason for not playing these guys was inexperience….my two points: 1) Rodney Stuckey 2) Look at the Atlanta Hawks this season….NO EXPERIENCE on that whole team…..THEY FOUGHT BOSTON BETTER THAN WE DID!!!!!!!!!!!! So what is more important….experience, or that deep down, give 110% determinatin and WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope we fight harder, and are better coached next season!!!!!!!!
From what I’ve read about Johnson around the time of the kidd/harris trade, he’s a control freak who would probably take the keys away from CB and stunt Stuckey’s development. He also loved playing vets, making the Amir/Samb/Afflalo/2008 pick all watch from bench. Of course, Joe could give him the same directive as Saunders, but I think Joe likes continuity, and switching out Flip doesn’t fit right now. I think it’s Sheed this year, then Flip next if the wheels fall off. My feelings are the same as before, and that’s if there’s a better coach, Joe would get him. If Flip stays, then there isn’t a better coach available. I trust Joe.
Whoa, BC. Hayes and Afflalo are our best shooters??? And ATL didn’t fight better then we did. Boston didn’t respect them, and let them stay in the series. Not sure 110% determination is mathematically possible. I hope for us to fight harder and be better coached next season, but your points are missing some proof, i.e. any quote that has flip saying he didn’t play those guys because of experience. Lakers have the best bench, imo, and go 8-9 deep. Calls for a 12 man rotation are coming from people who shouldn’t coach a high school team.
I’m still wondering why I was saying last offseason that I would rather have Jim O’Brien as a coach than Flip Saunders…
maybe it’s the fact that Mike Brown outcoached Flip, and Mike Brown can’t outcoach himself out of a wet paper bag.
I agree Craig. It’s great to be deep in the regular season, b/c the grind of 82 games & traveling all over takes a toll. But come playoff time, it’s typically game-rest-game, and travel isn’t an issue. It’s time to have a steady rotation of 8, *maybe* 9 guys, and that’s about it.
but that’s assuming you’re a team that has 8-9 guys that can get it the job done. which we evidently don’t. so maybe those people who said we should be playing players 10 or 11 weren’t as stupid as some would like to make them out to be.
I think it’s weird how people are saying that the bench won us 59 games. From what I remember, the bench bailed us out a few times, but for the most part, the starters came out and stomped all over the opponents’ throats and built a 20 or 30-point lead, thus letting the young’uns run rampant. Players were rested and playing well, and everyone was saying, “Yay! Now our starters won’t be tired and can play heavy minutes in the playoffs!” I’m not putting a lot of stock in the bench hype, although Maxiell played well usually. Stuckey didn’t start REALLY playing until the end of the season/playoffs. Afflalo played spot minutes and showed he could be a solid contributor who doesn’t make a lot of mistakes. Amir still looks lost on most posessions, offensively and defensively. Hayes got some minutes, but went ice cold halfway through the season and couldn’t get his stroke back. Lindsey Hunter didn’t play until the playoffs. Theo Ratliff played spot minutes after the trade. Herrmann was Human Victory Cigar v2.0. I’m exaggerating here a bit, because this IS the best our bench has been in a few years (and the most they have played, which is kind of scary) but I don’t think their impact was THAT huge. Good for Flip for playing the rooks every now and then, and good for him for keeping his job for at least another year.
I’m fine with Flip staying. But the guy seriously have better step up next season. If Sheed is gone then they’ll find someone or promote Maxiell in his place. I think from the core five Sheed is the one that lacked the determination. If Sheed is gone then I say good.
it’s idiotic to change a winning formula for no better reason than “that’s what you do in the playoffs.”
it’s idiotic to defer to a group of vets that monumentally collapsed at the same point two seasons (three now) in a row and imo proved to be mentally weak while doing it.
it’s idiotic to condition an athlete to play 30-35 minutes a game and then force him to play 40+ when it really matters and expect the same results.
the bench didn’t massively help the team in the regular season because they gave the starters rest. they helped them because they can play and offer differing skillsets from those of our starters. and as much as we love our starters, they’re not that reliable or exceptionally talented.
we have a team of b and c listers. you can easily mock those of us who think a few minutes for afflalo or hayes or amir might make a difference, just as easily as flip can mentally whitewash their contributions. but i look at that steaming pile of shit that sheed gave us in game six, all the shots tay bricked and think, what if?
Garrett, the bench didn’t win us 59 games. but a rotation that included them did. we were playing our best basketball and winning by our largest margins when afflalo, hayes and amir were all getting FIRST HALF MINUTES. i remember cause as lost as you say he was, amir and sheed were dominating second quarters. we were on a massive roll until the Utah game where flip gave us a playoffs preview, his ass tightened up, the bench sat and we lost. there was quite a brew ha ha over it.
for some reason a lot of people expect calm perfection from our bench but don’t mind incompetent crap from our starters. that’s ridiculous. i’d rather have seen sheed sit all of game six and amir be lost but try hard, instead of what we saw, sheed hand a game to his buddy kg.
Kyle, I see your point, but I think Lindsey gave great minutes and Stuckey played a lot. I would take that over Afflalo and Hayes.
As for the front line rotation…
QD, agreed. but afflalo or hayes could have taken some of tay’s minutes. afflalo for pure defense and desire to push and hayes for (his much improved this season) defense and shooting.
tay shot 32% in the boston series. either he simply started to suck, or he couldn’t handle playing 40 minutes a game while still performing at a high level. he deserved to be put in a better position to succeed.
@Kyle
and Hayes shot 30% from the field for the entire playoffs. I’ve argued quite often that Herrmann is a better option backing up Tay than Garbage Hayes. With that, we’re in agreement– that someone should have backed up Tay, and someone could have. I just don’t feel it should have been Garbage Hayes…
MP, i’m not ready to write off hayes yet. he wasn’t given a fair shake in my opinion. it’s hard to shoot with confidence when you’ve got coach twitch’s hands on your throat. however, i never saw a lack of effort from him, and as my father constantly points out, we’ve never really seen an offensive explosion from herrmann that would make me think he’d fare much better.
i wouldn’t be upset if we moved forward with herrmann instead of hayes, i’m just saying that i’ve never seen anything from him that puts him obviously ahead of cookie jarvis. but still that may be because we got herrmann late and we’d already cast our lot with hayes.
Going after Carmelo Anthony (or at least attempting to) is what this team needs. He is on the block, and he is the great go to scorer that this team needs. We need a guy who can take the ball and take games over.
A trade of Sheed, Tayshaun, and the #29 pick for Melo, Nene, and Steven Hunter works cap wise. Yes, Nene has a bad contract, but he would give us an inside big that we could use, and he needs to be in the deal for salary reasons. This might appeal to Denver I believe, because they need more defensive minded players and not guys who are just looking to score. Tayshaun and Sheed would fit that mold perfectly, and help get them out of long term cap hell. Tay, Sheed, Camby, and Martin would be a great defensive complimnent for scorers like Iverson, Smith, and Kleiza. I think this would work for both sides.
We don’t know that Joe D. won’t give Saunders an extension. All we know at this point is that nothing has been reported in the press.
It could be that Joe D. was satisfied with the overall job that Flip did and Joe D is waiting on offering him an extension for some reason.
It could also be that Joe D. feels that Boston was indeed the better team and will offer Flip an extension but hasn’t done so yet or it just hasn’t been reported yet.
It could be that Joe D. offered Flip a contract extension but Flip told Joe D. that he wants Joe D. to unload Sheed first before he accepts the extension. I don’t think that this last scenario is likely, but one never knows.
I don’t see another year of Sheed and Flip.
MP, Hayes shot 9-30 in the playoffs over 11 games, and if I recall, a lot of that was garbage time. That’s not a huge sample size, especially considering he wasn’t horrible in the regular season.
The guy averaged 18 minutes over 82 regular season games and then played just 5.3 minutes in 11 (out of 17) playoffs games. He’s always been streaky, so I can understand why he was thrown out of rhythm.
Hmmmmm
Update: Matt Dery of WDFN remains convinced “McCosky” is gone (via Full-Court Press):
Hmmmmmm, Flip Saunders AND McCoskey, that would rule for many fans.
Sauce: Ha! Fixed …
No problem. I’m sure Saunders would have liked one less speculation naming him, but hey.
@MW:
Streaky is my main knock on the guy. I know it is very difficult to get into rhythm in a short amount of time, but I’d love to find someone that can be a sure thing off the bench. Hell, I don’t even know who WOULD bring such a talent at SF. I’d love to find a wing shooter that can hit upwards of 46% of his shots…
@Kyle:
I’ve been ready to write off Garbage for a while, and I completely gave up on him during the playoffs.
“as my father constantly points out, we’ve never really seen an offensive explosion from herrmann”
You guys must not have watched him last season. Look at how he closed out his season with Charlotte:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4207/gamelog;_ylt=AgnCY__SsolxUk2ygmjRe7qkvLYF?year=2006
More on my thoughts of hayes vs. herrmann (from back in february):
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2008-02-20/the-argentine-solution-why-herrmann-should-replace-hayes/
“I’d love to find a wing shooter that can hit upwards of 46% of his shots…” in limited minutes, that is.
sigh.
here’s something i’ve come to admit to myself: when i got excited about the detroit pistons this season, it wasn’t because of tough victories against rivals like the cavs or the c’s or big road wins against supposedly superior teams like the spurs and the suns. it was when i saw that we’d SMOKED a team from tip on. because i knew i was going to see the kids play. amir, spellcheck, stuck, and max. those are the guys who get me excited about this team. to me, this is a realization that i’m ready to move on and be on the cusp of something new and great again.
retaining saunders is the opposite of that. it feels like checking a friendster page. it’s done. it’s over. 55-60 wins resulting in a 4-2 series loss in the ecf, watching superstars dominate us on our floor, watching our guys sing the same chorus over and over in the after game pressers: “we’ve been here before.” “when we play our game, we can beat anybody.” over and over and over again. well, it’s over. again. and i’m exhausted.
i personally need something to tell me that i have something to look forward to for ‘09. it ain’t gonna come with the 29th pick, it ain’t gonna come with a mid-level exception, and it ain’t gonna come with the same ol’ flip twitching away on the sidelines.
I need my team to stop playing like they resent having to play extra games every year. I need them to stop stepping on the court in the playoffs and expecting the rebounds to come to them. I need Flip Saunders to stop craning his fucking neck. I need to see the Pistons take themselves off autopilot.
MP, i get what you’re saying and i’m not trying to be purposefully argumentative, but amir looked like a god in the d-league and i don’t rank end of season games with the bobcats as much more than that. if i’d seen anything from him besides weird finger rolls and occasional threes i’d agree, but he got minutes with the pistons in the regular season and never made much of a case that he should play and not hayes. his value was speculative and based on the aforementioned d+ league situation. if we focused on what he does and did our best to exploit them he may be something, but ask flip murray and carlos delfino, we don’t do that.
Kyle, I gotcha, I see what you’re saying. My only disagreement would be that we ever gave Herrmann a shot. I’m not saying that was a big mistake, as we had already worked on integrating Hayes and it would have carried risks with our playbook and our players to make a mid-season switch.
As for Herrmann’s time on the court as a Piston, I’d give him the same defense I gave Amir for much of this season. We didn’t run plays for Herrmann, just as we didn’t run plays for Amir. That changed for Amir as the season wore on and our confidence raised in him, but Herrmann never got that chance.
IMO, Hayes had his chance and blew it, time to move on. We never gave Herrmann that chance, and I think its worth a roll of the dice on him.
I should underline and boldface that abbreviated “in my opinion”, though. Because I could be far from right. I appreciate your points and insight, Kyle.
Flip stays, fine. Sheed needs to go, but only if we can package him for a superstar (TMac intrigues me) or young big that lives off the block. If we cant get fair value for Sheed then perhaps Joe can talk him into a role off the bench and we see what Amir is made of. I have come to like the idea of developing our team more with most players returning, even Hayes. We make wholesale changes and we wont win it all unless we get a superstar. If Joe is looking at next year as a building year, then lets build with what we got and let Flip coach out his final year. I agree that Avery Johnson would probably stymie the development of our young guys.
No matter what happens, I trust Joe to do whats best for this team, whether its for next year or the one after.
First, whoever it was that first mentioned the McGrady option, you got my attention.
The little devil on my shoulder wants to add something.
As its already been mentioned, TMac could be an interesting option. What he has done with that Houston team is vastly underrated in my book. He has had to carry a team of role-players that are vastly inferior to what we have. The guy can flat-out score and he would not have to be the man in Detroit, thus his conditioning would probably be improved.
I love Rip, he has been a bloody good player for us, I want him to stay, but a trade in sending Sheed and Rip to Houston for McGrady and B. Jackson would be something to consider.
I certainly wouldn’t mortgage the farm for the bloke, but if Joe made a smart offer then it would be worth a look. It would sort out our offense when it falls apart as it so often has.
This would potentially give more minutes to our young bigs to play and develop (I’m looking at you Amir-Samb) Stuckey gets to keep his 6th man role without being prematurely thrust into the starting group and we can have more flexibility as TMac can also play SF. This will allow Afflalo more minutes and give Tay a rest.
Flip can coach a team that’s been shaken up. TMac gets to play for a coach that has been considered an offensive genius. We all get to sit back and…
Win?
1) Nothing is in stone yet. Nor will it be for a while.
2) Note that Terry Porter has a pretty good chance of getting the Phoenix job, which means that Michael Curry will become the lead assistant. Which I think is a good spot for him to be in.
3) What are Dumars’ options at this point? He chose to take the middle road, and most flexible route. Knowing what I know, this would be my call, too.
4) How can I figure this out where guys like Dery and Blakely cannot? And they get paid to tell the public what time it is (but Blakely frequently posts speculation as fact, which is why I don’t read him anymore. See (6), below.
5) Flip’s status is not dependent on Sheed’s, and vice versa. We’re too early in the off-season to delineate the tea leaves just yet.
6) The guy who probably knows best is Drew Sharp. Another guy who has posted spec as fact, but he called Rick Carlisle’s firing several weeks before it went down. The national media skewered him over it, and apparently forgot to apologize when it turned out he had a scoop. Someone high up the PS&E food chain has his digits.
Getting rid of Sheed is favorable over getting rid of Flip, not only for what the Pistons would get out of it; but also because Sheed’s attitude is not improving. He gives up, then bitches. Well, that doesn’t win championships. It’s time to rebuild. Give Flip a year, then replace his ass too at the end of his contract. He will never be a champion coach.
If we keep our backcourt (which I’m sure we will), and our young guns, who gives a shit.
DD — by saying that he’ll never be a champion coach, aren’t you conceding this team can’t win a title next year? Considering the starting backcourt is already over 30 and I’d probably cut off a pinkie for McDyess to win a title, I’d rather not just give away seasons.