Comments on: Thursday’s Layup Drill

By: LawyerBoy

LawyerBoy — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:27:32 +0000

DJ: You’re right about me incorrectly stating “Amir can’t play center”, so I apologize for that. I’ll rephrase and say that Amir’s skill set (insane ups with a lack of great strength in the post and a heavy reliance on athleticism over a fundamentally sound skill like a sky hook, or a bruising mentality) makes him best suited for success at the 3 or 4. Remember, I still believe he’s only 6′10 as well. Even if he is 6′11 I still maintain my claim even if it loses a bit of authority.

If Amir had Maxiell’s skill set (which would almost invariably require having some of his weight too) he’d be an excellent center because he could use his strength to will himself to the basket. As it stands, the only way Amir really gets to the basket consistently now is through a defensive breakdown on a box out (which happens fairly regularly when’s on the floor because he’s so active and hard to keep a body on when he doesn’t have the ball). He can’t bruise his way to the rim with ball-in-hand like the Shaq and Dwight Howard, so he has to rely on athleticism to get there. Relying on athleticism like Amir does, as opposed to strength/size is not the mark of a true center at all.

By: DJ

DJ — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 07:38:22 +0000

LB: I’ll give you the game is different today, but I fail to see how comparing todays NBA with the Russell and Jabbar era is like apples to oranges. The basket is the same height, the court is the same size, the ball is the same size and weight, the free throw stripe is in the same place, its 5 vs. 5. There have been a few rules changes, but for the most part the game is still the same. If you want to disagree with me fine, that is what blogs are for, but for you to state emphatically that Amir CANNOT be a five in the NBA, that sir, is plain and simply wrong! What skill sets is Amir lacking that prevents him from being a five?

By: LawyerBoy

LawyerBoy — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:07:58 +0000

DJ: This NBA isn’t the NBA of Russell and Jabbar. Comparing those two eras is like comparing apples to oranges. Players had skills then. When was the last time you saw a center put up a beautiful sky hook? Now players are lazy and it’s a lot more about physical gifts than it is about finesse and mastery. If you’re thick (Perkins, Shaq), tall (Yao, Ilgauskas) or strong (Howard, Camby), you’re a center. Amir is neither fat (220 lbs.), tall (7 foot+) nor strong. Amir is an athletic freak, which is not one of the prerequisites for a center. He’s a 3 or 4 (4 is the best bet), plain and simple.

By: DJ

DJ — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:20:12 +0000

LB: So your definition of an NBA caliber center is what? 6-11 and 245+? If height and weight were the defining attributes for a center, how do explain Bill Russell’s success? Also, Kareem is listed at about 225? How was he so successful? Solely becuase of his height? Wouldn’t “larger” players have been able to reduce his effectiveness through “brute force” alone? In a time where there were no “hard fouls” or flagrants, Russell and Abdul-Jabbar excelled. They played with intelligence, quickness, vision, and a desire to win, attributes that Amir seems to posses. Al Horford is a great example to my point, with a little work on his shooting mechanics outside 12 feet, Horford has the ability to be a KG or Duncan caliber 4, lack of an outside game relegates him to the 5, not that that will hurt him, I forsee a fantastic career for this young man, and I was of the opinion he should have been the ROY (a point I believe we both agreed on), but his athleticiism and quickness are not typical of a “true” center. The Shaq’s and Howard’s are the exception not the rule. Over the span of game or a series, I don’t beleive Amir would come out on the short end one-on-one against Horford on either end of the floor.

Regarding Amare, I agree with your post, he is much more effective as a 4 than a 5, I used him because he is listed as a 5 and started at center for a significant portion of the season. I could have used Duncan, but I do not recall him starting at the 5 this year and I think history considers him a PF more so than a center. Nazr, though, has never (to the best of recolection) played anything but center.

By: Mike Payne

Mike Payne — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:14:40 +0000

@DJ:
Let’s assume we trade Rasheed for a 5 and a backup 3. In an ideal world, should Amir really break out this season, It might be sensible to start Amir at the 4 and keep Maxiell as our sixth man off the bench. He could continue to dominate the way he has, be our spark leader for our bench game.

Again, that’s in an ideal world where Amir explodes in 08-09. Also, from the sound of how Curry wants to run the bench, I see Amir as its anchor.

By: LawyerBoy

LawyerBoy — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 02:07:44 +0000

Amir is not.

Stupid submit button.

By: LawyerBoy

LawyerBoy — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 02:07:24 +0000

DJ: Kendrick Perkins is listed at 280. I know that he is 6′10, but at 280, his fat ass compensates against plenty of players who are slightly taller than him but aren’t fat. He still sucks though and like Nazr, shouldn’t be used in any example of “league centers”. A better example is Al Horford who is 6′10 and 245. Yet still, 25 pounds of simply brute strength on Amir. Ben is a freak of nature (yet past his prime). No one in the league is like Ben. If Amare was a true center, why feel the need to go get Shaq? Amare is an excellent PF who was masquerading as a C (see: Wallace, Rasheed). Amir Johnson is not cut out for success as a center in this league, period. Centers (except MAYBE freak of nature, the one-of-a-kind among 450 players in the NBA Ben Wallace, and Dwight Howard, another one-of-a-kind freak) don’t have the highest vertical leap on the team. So, why can guys like Wallace and Howard play center and Amir can’t? It’s simple, Howard is listed at 265 and Ben at 240 (I suspect he weighs more). They’re incredibly strong, something

By: DJ

DJ — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:09:20 +0000

Bill Russell was listed at 6-9 215. Not that I am making a direct comaprison to Bill Russell, but Amir at 6-9 or 6-11 and 210 or 220, possess the skillsets to play the 5 in the NBA. He has shown an uncanny ability to get to the ball, and he has an acceptable offensive “in the paint game” I believe he does need some work in the low post, and needs to improve his passing, but implying that he isn’t “big enough” to play the 5 is unwarranted. Although I did not find any under 235, but there are a plethora of fives in this leauge under 6-11; Amare Stoudemire, Ben Wallace, Nazr Mohammed, and Kendrick Perkins to name a few. Just as there are 7 footers riding the pine, it takes a lot more than height and weight to be good center. Amir has the skillsets to develope into a fine center, if the DBB nation wants Amir on the floor, he is going to have to play either the 5 or the 3 unless we trade Maxiell (a move I am against.) As our roster stands right now, we have 2 or 3 guys in front of Amir at the 4 if we draft or trade for a 5. Also, I’d like to note, that we HAD a true Center on our team, and we traded him to Charlotte, I do not recall a whole lot of posiive support for our Pisotns when Nazr was here, although there were a lot “hope you have a great career now that you are gone Nazr” posts. I don’t think there are many options for a “true” center anywhere, and unless Coach Curry is going to completely rewrite our playbook, there is not much use for a “true” center on this team, our offense is not tailored to that style of game.

A back-up 3 is high on the list of bodies we need to get as well, are Hayes or Herrmann going to fill that roll? I am not sure Hayes will sign again if he can get starters minutes elsewhere and Herrmann may end up in Europe! If we trade Rasheed for a 5 (keeping things simple here), we still need a 3 and Amir is behind Maxiell and McDyess at the 4, and only guy-for-Rasheed at the 5, more minutes for Amir (at center), but I still think he will be underutilized. It is not far fetched to see an offesive set with Amir on the low block, and then on the defensive end put Maxiell (who is an excellent Low post defender) or Mcdyess down low, Amir is young, athletic, quick, and he moves well, he doesn’t have to stay “down low” to be a center in todays NBA.

By: Something more productive like Roscoe

Something more productive like Roscoe — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:16:06 +0000

I haven’t drank kool aid in a long time, but that stuff was pretty good.

No, I don’t feel like Amir is an NBA center. All I was trying to do was take Joe D’s comments, mesh them with Curry’s and see how that all fit together for the Pistons future plans when placed in context with the current league landscape. I like Dalembert, but I don’t think he fits into this discussion under those guidelines.

By: Something more productive like Roscoe

Something more productive like Roscoe — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:06:17 +0000

All I meant regarding Dalembert is that he is basically a defensive presence, not a low post threat that gets to the line. I think we already have someone like that in amir who has much greater offensive potential. Plus the point of the original post was looking at team’s best players that may be available. Dalembert is the third best player on a team that barely made the playoffs in the EC this year. He’s not the kind of player I see giving up one of the core four in exchange for.

And while I’m not going to argue Johnson wasn’t consistent enough for the Hawks, he is a young number one option on a young team. I feel like being around veterans on a day-to-day basis would help with developing the kind of consistency needed. As to trading him for Rip, Johnson’s game is more get to the paint-oriented (from what Ive seen) which is what I keep hearing Curry stressing. Rip’s game, while incredibly unique and efficient (for the most part) is not a get to the line kind of game.

By: Toledo Joe

Toledo Joe — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 20:43:37 +0000

To change the subject to the NBA Finals. . . . I don’t like Boston, but you have to respect the way they have proven folks wrong about their supposed/apparent weaknesses after the early playoffs. Their role players have had some huge games, Allen is back on track, the “Big Three” don’t look tired, and all of this resulted in two big comeback wins on the road: Detroit in game 6, and LA in game 4. And if they win it all, as they probably will, they will have gone through last year’s EC champ, the team with the NBA’s second-best record, and the #1 seed in the West, in that order.

I really, really, really want Detroit to beat them next year.

By: LawyerBoy

LawyerBoy — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 08:31:40 +0000

Just for full disclosure’s sake, Dalembert is listed at 6′11 and 250, and he’s one tough MFer with an over 7 and a half feet wingspan. Sign me up.

By: LawyerBoy

LawyerBoy — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 08:27:23 +0000

MP: He wouldn’t possibly take Amir’s minutes. That’s the answer to that question.

I’m usually a fan of SMPLRoscoe’s viewpoint, but SMPLRoscoe, you seem to be drinking the “Amir can be a C in this league” kool-aid. According to Wikipedia, Amir is 6′11 (still doubt it) and 220 (plausible by me) coming from 6′9 and 210 when he came into the league. It’s pretty unlikely that after three years with the organization he’s going to inexplicably add 20-30 more pounds on top of the ten he’s already added (which sucks when you bump him two inches in height). Just keep in mind that Theo is listed at 6′10, 235 for example while Dale Davis was listed at 6′11, 252. Do we really want Amir, even with 10-15 pounds of bulk added, trying to play C with his ups and lack of post strength? Bad idea. The possible addition of Dalembert on the other hand (ie: bye Sheed) would be fantastic in my eyes.

By: Mike Payne

Mike Payne — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 06:25:42 +0000

@something:

“I love Rip, but if ATL offered Johnson for Hamilton, I feel that’s a no brainer. Did you see how Johnson just destroyed the Celtic d in one-on-one situations?”

Yeah, and I also watched Joe Johnson play terribly inconsistent all season long, shooting terribly one night then decent the next. He shot 43% from the field vs. Rip shooting 48% this season. Johnson is inconsistent, he’s a gamble every time the possesion ends in his hands. I would take Rip over Joe Johnson any day of the year. (Johnson was on my fantasy team this past year, and I wished I had never drafted his inconsistent, poor shooting ass. he’s a volume shooter, the kind we don’t need in blue)

As for Biedrins, I know it is a long shot– but GS has its options cut short– no matter what they do, they cannot have Davis, Ellis and Biedrins back next season. It would be impossible. They have to give up one of the three, and Detroit could fuck them up by offering more than GS can afford for Biedrins, a la $50 mil across 5 years. Biedrins is worth that.

Last, re: Dalembert. How would Dalembert possibly take Amir’s minutes?

By: Something more productive like Roscoe

Something more productive like Roscoe — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 01:36:01 +0000

I don’t like most of those moves either, that’s why I think we are seeing a lot of Joe D. hedging his bets w the Curry and Sullivan hires. I live in the Bay Area and no chance in hell is Biedrins leaving the W’s. He and Ellis are their future and they have to resign both. Baron with one year left on his contract is expendable. I agree he is a 28 yr old in a 45 yr old’s body, but as I mentioned before I think GS is a very likely trade partner. I believe Baron and Sheed make about the same amount of money. Nelson HATES playing young players. They need a big man and I think are willing to part with Brendan Wright. They also have a lottery pick. I’m not sure how all that comes together, but the options seems plentiful and Baron’s contract is a big/necessary part of that.

I love Rip, but if ATL offered Johnson for Hamilton, I feel that’s a no brainer. Did you see how Johnson just destroyed the Celtic d in one-on-one situations? He’s also a bit younger. That being said, I think he’s the least like option on that list to be dealt.

I like Kaman, but the Clips will be much more likely to deal Brand instead. Dalembert is someone who would take Amir minutes and doesn’t have a post game.

My wish list (and who I thin are realistic) would be 1) Amare 2) Elton Brand 3) Jefferson.

Jefferson gets to the foul line like it’s his job. That’s not something Tayshaun does well. And Jefferson is a much more reliable/consistent offensive option.

I tried to do this as diplomatic as possible. I don’t like most of the guys on the list either professionally (McGrady, Anthony) or personally (Jefferson, Anthony, McGrady), but it is what it is.