Continuing in a series of cameos by DBB readers, here’s LawyerBoy — MW
By: LawyerBoy
Let me start off with a disclaimer as to avoid subsequent questions/criticisms. All trades were verified by the ESPN TradeChecker (Draft picks can’t be included in the program. If restrictions exist on them that I’ve failed to take into account, my bad). The ESPN TradeChecker still represents this year’s (2007-2008 season) salaries into trade plausibility, but it takes subsequent years’ salaries into account too. That being said, I only pursued trades that are of interest to me (You won’t see me propose a trade involving Carmelo in any article this off-season).
While I examined countless trade possibilities, plenty that I liked (involving teams not subsequently listed) didn’t make this article. Please keep in mind that this is by no means an exhaustive list of what I would suggest better serves the Pistons and their trading partner for the future. This is simply a (somewhat organized) list of trades that captured my interest as well as hopefully that of the DBB community.
I’m not expecting everyone to agree with my subjective determinations of fairness, but I included draft picks when I thought it to be necessary to make the trade fair to both teams. I’ve decided to break the subject matter up (hopefully) over two posts. First up, I will investigate multiple trade possibilities with two of the trading partners I find most worthwhile: the Philadelphia 76ers and the Los Angeles Clippers. The second post will (likely) deal with (only) the Portland Trailblazers and the Denver Nuggets.
PHILADELPHIA 76ERS:
Truthfully, I believe this may be the best trading partner on the market. The Sixers have a true post-presence in Samuel Dalembert, a legitimate point guard in Andre Miller should we choose to swap point guards, and plenty of other assets (Willie Green, Thaddeus Young, and more) that could have Joe D.’s interest.
Proposed Trade:
- Samuel Dalembert/Willie Green for Rasheed Wallace/Arron Afflalo
Possible Variations:
- Dalembert for Wallace
- Dalembert/#16 pick for Wallace/#29 pick (I almost picked this trade as the top choice and I think it’s quite fair to both teams)
- Dalembert/Thaddeus Young for Wallace/Arron Afflalo/#29 pick
- Dalembert/Andre Miller/Young for Wallace/Chauncey Billups/future second rounder(s)
- Dalembert/Miller/Young for Wallace/Billups/#29 pick
- Dalembert/Miller/Green for Wallace/Billups/Afflalo/#29 pick
Why the Pistons do it: The most insightful Pistons fans in the world (read: DBB community) have been clamoring for a real post-presence at center who cares about rebounding. Enter: Samuel Dalembert. He’s an instant fit on the Pistons defensive-minded, blue-collar composition and he won’t venture out of the paint (I’m looking at you and shaking my head, Sheed) while averaging a double-double. I think a center that stays in the paint and doesn’t get called for six Ts during the playoffs may actually end up preventing a lot of cardiac arrest among Detroit fans even if he’s not nearly as offensively gifted as Rasheed.
If Willie Green comes over in the package, you get an instant hometown hero off the bench who spells Rip. Green would probably be the best shooting guard coming off the bench this side of Ginobili and Gordon. Andre Miller is a fascinating player as I think perception of him varies quite widely among basketball enthusiasts. I’m pretty fond of Miller because he doesn’t give up a ton of size to Chauncey and I don’t think he’s a dreadful downgrade from Billups either. I’m happy with swapping point guards in the aforementioned scenarios. A platoon of Stuckey and Miller strikes me as a favorable construction.
Why the Sixers do it: Rasheed is a Philly native. If there’s any city he’d immediately be accepted in, it’s Philly. Philadelphia gets to add a veteran presence at center, one that is a huge upgrade on offense from Dalembert. Sheed is comparable to Dalembert on defense even if he may be slightly worse in my view (though some may argue he’s not and is in fact better than Dalembert). Iguodala would appreciate the scoring support Rasheed provides from anywhere on the court.
If Willie Green is jettisoned, the Sixers can switch Iguodala to shooting guard and bring Thaddeus Young in to start at small forward. That may even be an improvement upon last year’s starting lineup. I imagine Philadelphia is reticent to part with their All-Rookie Second Teamer, Thaddeus Young (or Willie Green for that matter). Having Andre Iguodala on the squad makes any such deal a lot easier to swallow. If Philly got Chauncey and Rasheed in a package, they’d have two championship veterans around to support Iguodala.
LA CLIPPERS:
I think (especially out here in Los Angeles) that people forget this squad won a playoff series in 2005-2006 against Denver (4-1) and took Phoenix to seven games in the next round. This team has essentially the same players as it did then, some of whom in my eyes would be worthwhile additions to the Pistons. Unfortunately, about half of the Clippers’ contracts are no longer on the books come July, so making a deal with them is tougher until all of that is settled. Regardless, I’ve constructed multiple scenarios without involving Elton Brand or any other Clipper who is a free agent this summer. Unfortunately, we always end up acquiring Cuttino Mobley no matter what I do.
Proposed Trade:
- Chris Kaman/Cuttino Mobley/Tim Thomas for Chauncey Billups/Rasheed Wallace/#29 pick
Possible Variations:
- Kaman/Mobley/Al Thonton/Brevin Knight for Billups/Tayshaun Prince/Cheick Samb/Arron Afflalo/#29 pick & future first rounder
- Kaman/Mobley/Tim Thomas/Knight for Billups/Rasheed Wallace/Samb/Afflalo/#29 pick & future first rounder
- Kaman/Mobley/Thornton/Josh Powell for Billups/Prince/Cheick Samb/#29 pick
- Kaman/Mobley/Thomas/Al Thornton for Wallace/Prince/Amir Johnson/future first rounder
- Kaman/Mobley/Thomas/ for Wallace/Billups/Samb/#59 pick and future second rounder
- Kaman/Mobley/Thomas/ for Wallace/Billups/Samb/future second rounder
Why the Pistons do it: Chris Kaman is another true center that ought to be on Joe D.’s radar. I imagine Pistons fans would hardly complain if he came back to his home state at these prices. Mobley has a bad contract ($9 mil. this year, $9.8 mil. next), but he’d make for a hell of a backup shooting guard for the next couple years, wouldn’t he? And Rasheed would move to starting power forward or backup center if he wasn’t shipped to the Clippers.
I think Tim Thomas is a solid pro (though I get a lot of resistance to that claim) who can back up Tayshaun (or Thornton). Rasheed is jettisoned in most of these scenarios though, and that would result in an automatic reduction in technicals for the Pistons. If Tayshaun is moved in this deal I demand Thornton in return. At its absolute worst, I believe it to be a lateral move in terms of talent, possibly an upgrade of a very similar skill set.
Why the Clippers do it: Assuming they re-sign Elton Brand (they will), the Clippers starting line-up looks like this if they make one of the proposed trades: Chauncey Billups, Corey Maggette, Al Thornton or Tayshaun Prince, Tim Thomas or Rasheed Wallace, Elton Brand or Rasheed Wallace. That’s one talented starting five by my estimation. If the Pistons offer a homecoming for Westchester High alum Amir Johnson, DBB will be collectively heartbroken (suck it up, sissies), but it will probably be worth it for both squads.
Even in the crowded West, with Chauncey holding their fort down the Clippers could certainly make (and possibly compete for series wins in) the playoffs. The Clippers are desperate for a reliable point guard. Chauncey will be very attractive to them and they might even overcompensate the Pistons to get him.
That’s Part One, folks. If I’m commissioned for a Part Two by Matt [ed. note — he is], it will come later this week. I hope this promotes some rational, healthy discussion and that the DBB community enjoys this article as much as I enjoyed (compulsively) compiling and analyzing it.
Great to see this up, LB, awesome suggestions. As you know, I’m big on the Sheed/Dalembert suggestions. Some of those variations you pointed out made me hesitate, a touch, as I’d love to keep it as simple as possible. Getting Green alongside Dalembert would be brilliant.
As it stands now, Philly has a lot of cap space. Iguodala could change that should Philly accept his request, and they’d be more likely to do so if they knew they could get a huge expiring contract on their books in Rasheed.
I imagine it would be tough for them to give up Dalembert, they’ve got a lot riding on him. That lineup you suggested, and the point of allowing Young to start at SF could make it a sensible move for Philly.
As for Detroit, we’d be in damn good shape.
Nicely done, LB. A couple of quick comments:
I believe Detroit will be looking to deal the #29 pick, and not for another pick, unless it’s to move up to something in the 7-10 range.
I’d pull the trigger on Trade #1 or Trade #6 (var #5)(but doubt that Philly would to #5, that’s an outright heist for the Pistons).
I’m also not that big on dealing Affalo. Again, I believe it will be the pick, and not a player that Dumars will be looking to deal with.
Re the Clippees, why not Brand for Wallace and possibly the #29 pick straight up? I’m not so much sold on Kaman, and besides, Dumars has been on the record as wanting to do deals involving the other team’s best player.
The final thought is that a deal might not get done. Dumars’ rep is that of a heistmeister, and GMs are smarter (as one poster, Keegan I think) noted on another thread a couple of days ago.
Looking forward to Part II.
Awesome! Been waiting for this LB.
Now to read it
Hmmmmm….This is all interesting theories. I just don’t care who we trades with just as long as it will make us better. I misses watching my Pistons in actions for weeks now.
Interesting. I like the idea of getting something for Sheed now rather than waiting for him to blow up next ECF. I cant seem to find a trade I like here though, I just don’t know much about Dalembert, other than his penchant for stupid haircuts.
Has anyone considered Rip/Sheed to Dallas for Nowitzki/Stackhouse?
It works in Trade Machine.
C - Dyess
PF - Nowitzki
SF - Prince
SG - Stuckey
PG - Billups
Thoughts?
I enjoyed your post.
I like Dalembert and Andre Miller as talent but I’m not sure about Dalembert’s contract. Dalembert has three years left at the same money as Rasheed. That’s a lot of $$$. Kaman’s deal is even longer than Dalembert and Kaman misses an average of 11 games a year for his career. I like Dalembert a lot more than Kaman. On the Clips, I’d rather take a flyer on restricted FA Nick Fazekas at 3yrs/$2.4M for front court depth and pass on Kaman.
Somebody mentioned bringing in DeSagana Diop as a C and I liked that idea. Good classic defensive C who would also help with Cheik Samb’s development and make the Pistons really, really popular in Senegal.
My first impression of these deals is that the talent coming back isn’t better than the talent leaving (just different) and the contracts are too long for Dalembert and Kaman. I really think Joe D. is looking do something like move two good players for one great one plus one bench player and I don’t see that happening in these deals.
Or…
Hamilton/Sheed to Phoenix for Stoudemire/Bell
Would they bite?
Good read LB
I agree we need some inside presance ASAP
myself i don’t see afflalo moving seeing as he’s a hard worker just like coach likes.
Also if it was me i’d give up hamilton before prince. He plays better D and he could do well offensively if we ran more plays for him.
laughton: if we get the stoudemire deal it would be a bigger upset than gasol or KG. Instant championship contenders that same year as long as he stays healthy.
i don’t see it happening
Luke warm on both those trades. I like Kaman, but to give up CB and Sheed is alot.
As far as Sheed goes, I’m completely ok with letting him play out his career here. Maybe he comes off the bench next year… or the year after. That’s fine by me.
Anyone else hear the rumor that Miami offered their #2 pick/Blount/Banks for CB and Maxiell? It makes sense for Miami on several levels. I’m not a Beasley fan(which would be most likely) but if somehow Rose is there (Chicago has said they may pick Beasley instead) that would be ridiculous. We’d essentially have 2 6′4″ PGs that could play the 2, are atheletic, and aggressive.
Personally I’m hoping we trade Sheed for a #9-15 draft pick… and pick up JaVale McGee. I don’t know how this guy isn’t ranked higher on people’s boards.
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/javalemcgee.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSh4w-UPUk4
What about Al Jefferson, I think he is worth persuing, I personally am a big fan of his, I see his contract is a bit long, but I think he is be the Pistons ideal PF.
I love the idea of Willie Green playing back in the D! I also like some NY Knickerbockers despite their bad contracts, Jamal Crawford, David Lee, and Zach Randolph (not so much).
Also some other I’d like to have: Travis Outlaw, James Jones, Ronnie Brewer, Mehmet Okur (bring him back)… and many more!
joejoejoe: I think that was actually me who mentioned DeSagana Diop. Not that he’s even on any level remotely close to Ben in his prime, but it would be sort of the Pistons going back to what worked for them in terms of defensive-mindedness at the 5. He’s not the ideal starter but he takes up a lot of space on the inside, grabs boards and blocks shots. He’s a legit seven footer and is unrestricted this summer and probably comes on the real cheap. He’d be a great backup. His last contract was for a total of 6.5 mil. over 3 years.
To everyone else, thanks for the love on the article. I’m starting soon or part 2, and maybe I’ll even get into some of my favorite random trade ideas and some reasonably priced free agents.
*on part 2
P.S.: I think Joe will look to grab one of the cheap unrestricted free agent seven-footers on the market if he doesn’t bring in a solid good one in with a trade. At least, I hope he does.
Hi all,
First-time poster here. Just wanted to give my two cents.
I think these trade ideas are great ideas if this was last year. Joe has made it bluntly obvious that he is looking to rebuild (while staying competitive) with an all-star calibur player. While these trades stick w/ Joe’s original mentality circa 2000 (blue-collar player who can hopefully tun into a stud), Joe has changed ship. He isn’t looking for a diamond in the rough anymore, but rather a proven star that can take over games for this team down the stretch. Neither of these proposed players provide that spark, and unfortunately, the players on our current roster who usually do, simply do not anymore.
The biggest issue I see is that this came about in the wrong year. Making a play for Carmelo is simply a huge risk. While he is a great talent, he does not possess a Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh personality and work ethic. These are players (correct me if I’m wrong) that could potentially be available next year. I know Joe wanted to make a point that we need to change, but I wish he would have done this last year (after the Cavs embarrased us) when there were the likes of Kevin Garnett and Pau Gasol out there. This is a down year for grabbing an “available” all-star and I am very curious to see what Joe pulls off. He’s a smart guy and I’m sure we all respect him very much, but I’m just hoping he doesn’t make a move for a star, simply to make a move (even if he thinks it is equal talent wise) because it is very important to keep the synergy on this team.
That’s all I got.
All the best from London.
Brian
ps. LawyerBoy, you rock my world
pps. Great post JoeJoeJoe:
“My first impression of these deals is that the talent coming back isn’t better than the talent leaving (just different) and the contracts are too long for Dalembert and Kaman. I really think Joe D. is looking do something like move two good players for one great one plus one bench player and I don’t see that happening in these deals.”
I’ll join the well-deserved chorous of praise for LB putting this post together. I only have one point to add to the above. Isn’t it unlikely that Philly would really want ‘Sheed, unless they are truly over-optimistic about their chances next year? Given ‘Sheed’s age, contract, and volatility, it seems to me that the teams that would want ‘Sheed would be those who think they are one piece/player away from a legit shot at a championship in the next year or two. Could Philly really think that now?
I think the 76ers trades are somewhat appealing. Would love to get Thaddeus Young, but doubt they want to give him up.
The Clippers suggestions…Kaman is a decent C. Can’t imagine why we would want Tim Thomas, Mobley, or Brevin Knight though. While we’re on topic, how about Livingston? I think he’s even unrestricted.
My main argument over these trade suggestions is that I remember Joe mentioning the phrase “all-stars” when referring to names discussed in the initial phone calls. “…we’ve had talks with a lot of people and you can rest assured we’re not asking for the second- or third-best player on those teams.”
trade:
billups/kaman
wallace/stoudemire
starting:
stuck
rip
prince
stoudemire
kaman
bench:
dyess
max
amir
afflalo
possible bench:
dixon
hermann
ratliff
Here’s what scares me…
Player A: 43% fg, 4.1 3pt/game at 35%, 6.6 reb, 12.7 ppg
Player B: 45% fg, 3.2 3pt/game at 40%, 7.2 reb, 12.2 ppg
Player A = Rasheed Wallace and Player B = Troy Murphy. This certainly is a bigger deal for fantasy players and as Homer Simpson says “You can use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true,” but it’s representative of just how bad Sheed is about drifting back outside the arc.
Adding to those thoughts, I think both Philly and Clippers are logical choices for Sheed. He gives Brand some room to operate and Philly a go-to guy in the half court game. I agree that we’d have trouble prying away Young - Carney would be the more likely young guy.
Aaron: Just for accuracy’s sake, Livingston is restricted, like all players are when they come off their rookie contract. I’m not sure if you ever saw the footage, but he blew his knee out pretty gruesomely and may never play (the same) again, not to mention the most he’s ever played in a season is in 61 games, including without having played since February 2007. He just got cleared to resume basketball activities this past weekend as a matter of fact. However, the Clips don’t seem to be interested in bringing him back.
The buzz out here in LA (what little of it isn’t on the Lakers) is that they’re looking to replace Livingston with their #7 pick this year. If they grab Eric Gordon with their seventh pick as is being widely assumed, he can be converted into an extremely dangerous 1. He played 2 last year at Indiana, but at 6′4, he would make an imposing 1 as opposed to a somewhat undersized 2. He has great decision-making and passing skills, just horrific ball-handling skills in transition and off the dribble that need to be addressed.
Toledo Joe: Philly could look for future cap space on the Rasheed deal because Mr. Iguodala and Mr. Williams are likely to handcuff them as free agents for this summer. They need all the future free cap space they can get if they wish to truly build upon what they started at the end of this year and make a serious splash in next year’s free agency and in the playoffs beyond just this season. Rasheed makes sense.
Shinons: Agreed re: Young, but you’ve got to give a little to get a little too. Philly would be stupid not to take variation #5, especially if you added in a future first-rounder on top of #29 (on the fly edit, hehe). Their cap space is so tight if Iguodala gets $12 million+/year out of them as he should command. They may have to let Andre Miller go next summer because the noose may be too tight.
ric: Sounds nice, but it’s absolutely wishful thinking on both accounts in my view. I’d say there’s no chance Phoenix trades Amare for Sheed now. Sheed is damaged goods that are on the decline. You don’t throw in the towel on Amare for Sheed’s cap space next summer. Amare is way better than that (and Sheed). Billups for Kaman straight up is somewhat fair (though we should and leaves the Clippers with NO post presence besides Brand. You’re either forced to start Tim Thomas at PF and Brand at C or you rely on the (extremely crappy in terms of starters) free agent pool for PFs/Cs. Not to mention, it’s not happening for the simple reason that the contracts don’t work straight up.
Yeah, I came out from underneath my rock right around the time Livingston blew his knee out. So I am well aware of that. I just love his game… and would love to see his chances as a back-up PG.
I would hate to try and squeeze some defense out of a frontline of Kaman and Amare.
I imagine Joe wants to pkg Hamilton or Billups with Rasheed (cap space) for a Superstud and someone else to make the contracts match up… not easily done, i know.
Oh, and I meant Livingston is unrestricted come July 1. Assuming that the CLippers don’t suddenly decide to give him the 5.8 million contract.
nothing will happen till draft day at the earliest. All just speculation.
I’m sorry… I had to pick myself up off the floor after reading about ANYONE being interested in acquiring Dalembert OR Kaman and their hideous contracts. Both of those team GMs would fall all over themselves trying to click “accept trade” if Joe offered that to them.
How about:
the entire Clippers roster
for
Arron Afflalo
Lindsey Hunter
Then we buy out everyone except Elton Brand, and re-sign them all to minimum contracts because outside of Al Thornton and Brand none of them deserve the salary they’re making.
If you thought Nazr’s hands were bad, wait until you get a load of Samuel Dalembert. I agree with Boney about Sam. They hate him in Philly for more reasons than being mean idiots.
Willie Green is a bad basketball player, and Andre Miller is a gigantic dropoff from Chauncey.
Sheed for Dalembert is interesting, but we don’t gain much talent-wise in exchange for a big contract chip.
The Clippers trade would be a disaster. Sheed for Kaman straight up makes sense only if you figure this year was the harbinger of things to come. Keep in mind that, in spite of Kaman’s presence, the Clippers were badly outrebounded by opponents even though they shot substantially worse.
That leaves us with Chauncey for Mobley and Tim Thomas. Mobley is washed up, having been in decline for three consecutive years. Not sure why you think he would be an outstanding backup.
As for Tim Thomas, people disagree that he is a solid pro because he is a pure scorer (read: doesn’t play defense, rebound or pass) who doesn’t score very much.
For this, we are trading the second best PG in the league?
I think the truth lies somewhere between “these trades are terrible” and “these trades makes some sense”.
Players you have spent several seasons rooting for are rarely seen as valuable to other teams as you think they are to your own. However, I am fairly certain we could do better than the trades being discussed.
I like Brand. And if the Pistons can get him they should. I like Amir and Maxiell, but they both kind of duplicate each other as a backup PF. Maybe some pkg with the core being Billups/Maxiell/Dixon for Elton Brand?
kevin: Did we suddenly acquire Baron Davis, Deron Williams, Tony Parker or even maybe Steve Nash? Those guys are all better than Chauncey (but not CP3) any day of the week. Wherever you got “second best point guard in the league” from is the same place Boney got “entire Clippers roster” for Afflalo/Lindsey.
Hate to say it, but there’s no magic bullet. Unless we pull some Gasol or Ray Allen type garbage, we’re not going to get incredibly better through these trades - or any other possible ones. The answer that we’re looking for could already be on our roster (just throwing this out there). Stuckey up to 30 mintues and a big man rotation of Maxiell, Amir, Dyess, and Sheed - with a greater emphasis on the young guys. Then Sheed comes off the books the same year we need to re-up on Stuckey and Maxiell.
My only concern in this scenario is that Maxiell probably wouldn’t be able to carry the load offensively that we’d need him to. But if he keeps working on that jumper…
I assume that you’ve all seen the Chad Ford suggestions from last week . . . what do you think about those? In particular, I found Boozer/Brewer for Hamilton/Prince to be an interesting idea - Wallace stays at the 5 (where, despite his rebounding, he is a quality defender), Boozer is a force in the post, Brewer is a competent 2-3 (and Stuckey could start at 2 anyway), and Maxiell (whose value might never be higher) could be moved for another SF. What do you think?
In any case, I find it hard to imagine a trade of Wallace for a post player who rebounds. What team is going to give Detroit a star 4/5 type player in return for a declining 4/5 who won’t rebound or play in the paint on offense? I have to believe that getting a good big man will mean trading either a lot of young guys or a couple of off-position starters (my preference would be to toss in Billups, but obviously Utah doesn’t need a PG). I think people looking for trades that are win-win from Detroit’s perspective aren’t being realistic.
Shinons,
The Ray Allen trade will bite the Celts in the ass as soon as Jeff Green becomes a legitimate 18-21ppg guy. That wasn’t a good trade.
LawyerBoy,
I said entire clippers roster because outside of Brand and Thornton (an old rookie) I wouldn’t trade more than Afflalo and Hunter for any of their players.
Just because Chris Kaman is a slow foot big man who’s only position is Center doesn’t mean it’s a good trade. Just because Samuel Dalembert is a slow foot big man doesn’t mean trading Sheed for him is the answer.
Acquiring Willie Green and Dalembert eliminate the biggest problems that the 76ers currently have, the 2 ugliest, possibly most untradeable contracts that Billy King has ever signed. To trade Sheed to them for Dalembert not only secures their spot as a middle seed next year in the playoffs, but it also secures their spot as a top free agent contender going into next offseason WITH their run and gun show they have on the roster now! We are not the New York Knicks, we do not take on ridiculous contracts just to make our team run. Dumars takes advantage of other GMs, these trades are clear winners for the other team.
Trading for Green and Dalembert singlehandedly makes the 76ers better than any of the teams in the Allen Iverson era. They’ll be in the catbird seat with regards to free agents, they’ll get younger, etc.
The Clippers? The only Clipper worth anything is Elton Brand. Not a single Clipper outside of Brand (except maybe Kaman and Thornton) would see the floor in Detroit. Kaman offers size and not much else, Thornton offers ability but he’s 2 years behind the learning curve already because of his age. If I had my choice of Thornton or Tay, I’d take Tay and look somewhere else to improve.
These trades will have the GMs involved stumbling over themselves to agree…
kevin s.,
Chauncey Billups is the 2nd best point guard in the NBA? hahahahaha
Chauncey brings more to the table than most here give him credit for. It’s a shame that this team was nothing more than a 1st round playoff team before Billups signed up to run the show here.
Your real weakness in the starting 5 is Richard Hamilton, plain and simple. If we want to talk brass tax and get real negative about the team then let’s be honest. Hamilton is a shooting guard who needs a point guard on the floor to set up an offensive set for him. He can not set up a play himself, he is a below average ball handler, he is below average when it comes to ability to create shots for himself. He works himself in the flow of the offense, but who sets up the offense? Stuckey and Billups.
At least Stackhouse could take the ball to the rack, even though he was a ballhog. Guarantee that Stack would never intentionally foul his man after he felt he got fouled the possession before.
Hamilton has got to go. Plain and simple… I like the thought of a combination of J Rich and Okafor for Sheed and Hamilton… defintely get younger on the front line but that also restricts the growth of Maxey and Amir possibly both being starters one day.
Boney,
Would Charlotte really go for that? Richardson is better than Hamilton, and Okafor is at least arguably better than Wallace, especially when age is considered. How does that trade make Charlotte better?
“Did we suddenly acquire Baron Davis, Deron Williams, Tony Parker or even maybe Steve Nash? Those guys are all better than Chauncey (but not CP3) any day of the week.”
By what standard? Famousness? Fantasy basketball value? Chauncey’s PER was 2nd in the league among point guards (by a mile) and he is a better defender than any of those guys.
“Wherever you got “second best point guard in the league” from is the same place Boney got “entire Clippers roster” for Afflalo/Lindsey.”
The Clippers were very bad last year. The reason for this is that they have bad players.
“He works himself in the flow of the offense, but who sets up the offense? Stuckey and Billups.”
Who, as luck would have it, happen to play for us as well.
@Boney:
“Your real weakness in the starting 5 is Richard Hamilton, plain and simple.”
Simply repeating your argument about Hamilton over and over is not going to make any of us suddenly agree with you.
Mike Payne,
I was re-stating the argument in a forum where trades are being offered. Considering we’re talking about Sheed and getting guys like Dalembert or Kaman in response I was figuring that the Rip discussion is more realistic. I mean, we’re talking about getting WILLIE GREEN here…c’mon
TWL,
I’m not saying that THAT’S the trade straight up, but since we’re all holding hands and offering up ideas of acquiring horrible contracts, I figured I’d throw Jason Richardson out there.
kevin s.,
Billups is not the 2nd best point guard in the NBA. His defense is vastly overrated as the league has turned over the reigns to younger, faster point guards. He shoots at a 40% clip, and his assists are nowhere near the totals put up by the guys LB listed.
Sure, he’s tough. Sure, he can post up any of the point guards LB listed. But he also is 32 years old with a 21 year old backup who came up big when it mattered while he disappeared for stretches.
My comment referred to Billups or Stuckey setting up the offense for the ball movement challenged shooting guard that is currently on the roster.
i think we should try everything in our power to get stoudemire, i think he would give us everything we need. like rebounds,defense, a guy who can get his own offense, and most of all a desire to win.
i would give as much as sheed/chauncey for him
lineup
stuckey
rip
tay
max/mcdyess
amare
and if that didnt happen and i dont think it will i think our next best options would be to get camby/brand
“Billups is not the 2nd best point guard in the NBA. His defense is vastly overrated as the league has turned over the reigns to younger, faster point guards. ”
I have demonstrated previously that this assertion does not hold up to evidence.
“He shoots at a 40% clip, and his assists are nowhere near the totals put up by the guys LB listed.”
45% clip, with 40% from 3p range. His true shooting percentage was higher than any point guard with the exception of Nash. Accusing him of being a poor shooter is ignorant.
“since we’re all holding hands and offering up ideas of acquiring horrible contracts”
You can go ahead and dismiss be from this particular rainbow connection. If Charlotte could land Hamilton for Richardson, they would do so in a heartbeat.
willie green is not that bad a player. he defends, he can shoot and he can get to the cup. he just doesn’t do those things well enough to be a starting 2 guard on a legit team.
dalembert and kaman have the same issue: their contract doesn’t warrant their skill level. dalembert’s contract has been an albatross around philly’s neck for years. he’s their highest paid player even though he’s their 4th best player. (maybe even 5th depending on how highly you regard lou williams.)
that being said, dalembert would send chris kaman running from the gym in tears. kaman’s numbers are an absolute charade. i witnessed him get flustered and run around in circles by undrafted rookies a couple years ago in summer league, and i’ve never seen anything to change my mind about him.
if philly was dumb enough to give up thad young in one of those deals i’d do it in a heartbeat. but without him, i don’t think i’d be willing to take on dalembert’s numbers.
can’t wait to see your iverson ideas, lb.
“i think we should try everything in our power to get stoudemire, i think he would give us everything we need. ”
This has been brought up a lot. Is there any indication Phoenix wants to part with him? Wasn’t Marion sacrificed so that the team could build around Stoudemire?
Don’t get me wrong. He’s a top ten player. If he’s on the market, the Pistons should absolutely make every effort to get him.
oh, my bad.. I took into account his 41.6% and 34% career percentages from 3 during my comment. I totally skimmed over the 41-43% fg% until this season where he broke out with 45.
True shooting percentage is also skewed by his free throw % otherwise Brent Barry is the best shooting guard in the NBA because of his .655 true shooting percentage.
If we’re talking Billups 05-06 season, 18.5 and 8.6 assists then yes he’s the 2nd best and likely THE best. If we’re talking healthy CP3, DeRon, etc then I’d put CB at best #5 depending on where he ranks on your homer scale.
Of course Charlotte would jump at the chance to get Rip for JRich… it’s not MY idea, it was a rumor that has been floated that I found to be interesting considering Okafor isn’t interested in shooting 3s or throwing his headbands around. You’ll see I prefaced it by saying something along the lines of “if we’re talking about taking on bad contracts, let’s talk about Okafor/J Rich for Sheed and Hamilton”…
Kaman’s average salary is $10.8 million, and I honestly don’t think he’s overpaid. If he were on the Pistons, he’d be the fourth-highest paid guy on the team, getting a smidgen more than Tay. (Obviously any trade would send some of those salaries back, I’m just talking about relative value …)
He’s a legitimate big man who averaged 15.7 points, 12.7 boards and 2.7 blocks last year. It took him some time to find his niche/gain consistency early in his career, but that’s mostly because he had some misdiagnosed learning/attention disorder that he finally figured out this year.
He’s not the defender that Rasheed is, but 1) only a handful of players are, and 2) he’s a helluva lot more consistent on the glass and scoring in the paint. He’s 26 years old, on the upswing of his career and is a local kid — what’s not to like?
Guaransheed,
It’s highly unlikely that Stoudemire is available considering the advanced age of the rest of that core. Unless ownership absolutely doesn’t care about on court performance over the course of the next 8-10 seasons, then they’ll trade Stoudemire.
Considering Shaq is the age he is, Nash isn’t getting younger, Bell isn’t exactly a spring chicken, Hill? c’mon…
None of those guys play defense, either. If the new regime is serious about defense then Stoudemire is not the answer unless we’re going to enter ourselves into the SportsCenter highlight reel sweepstakes where KG and Stoudemire take turns dunking on each other while everyone watches because there’s no defense being played.
Plus, Stoudemire is a power forward. He plays his best when there are no double teams forcing him to spots on the floor where he doesn’t want to go. He also has found the perimeter touch… let’s get a big man that actually wants to play in the paint.
Matt,
Detroit would need to acquire the best power forward help defender ever to keep opposing players from running rampant in the lane if Kaman is the man in the middle.
“oh, my bad.. I took into account his 41.6% and 34% career percentages from 3 during my comment. ”
So, you took into account his performances with Boston and Minnesota? That IS your bad.
“True shooting percentage is also skewed by his free throw % ”
Skewed? As thought the ability to get to the line frequently and make said free throws does not contribute to a team’s likelihood of winning a game?
“otherwise Brent Barry is the best shooting guard in the NBA because of his .655 true shooting percentage.”
He is the best shooting guard at shooting. However, there is more to the game than shooting. That said, Brent Barry is a profoundly underrated component of the Spurs’ success.
“If we’re talking Billups 05-06 season, 18.5 and 8.6 assists then yes he’s the 2nd best and likely THE best. ”
Chauncey averaged 36+ mpg that season. If you extrapolate last years numbers to account for those minutes, you get 19.4 and 7.8. You also have to account for the fact that Detroit has a number of solid passers amongst the starting five. The same rule that applied to Kaman and rebounding applies here in reverse.
“I’d put CB at best #5 depending on where he ranks on your homer scale.”
Is John Hollinger a Pistons homer?
“He’s not the defender that Rasheed is, but 1) only a handful of players are, ”
Right, but one of the handful of players you describe happens also to be the one we are considering trading.
” It took him some time to find his niche/gain consistency early in his career, but that’s mostly because he had some misdiagnosed learning/attention disorder that he finally figured out this year. ”
Come on, Matt. You’re smarter than this. Isn’t it a bit eerie that Kaman found all this out at the exact moment his team’s best rebounder happened to be out for the season? Put Rasheed on that team, and I can guarantee you 11 RPG.
I got another crazy idea that could happen in an alternate universe where the NBA is ruled by insane monkeys.
Sheed to Memphis for Darko/Miller
It works in Trade Machine. Memphis gets an expiring contract that they can use to get five more Serbians. We get Joe a constant reminder of his worst draft. Perfect!
Boney: Your Rip argument still sucks and no one agrees with you. Despite my penchant for admiring him, I have some trades in mind with him involved. Unlike the arrogant, isolated ass you are, I’m not going to refuse to jettison Rip as stubbornly as you would demand he be dealt. I’m willing to part with a guy I love if it makes the team better. I’m open to new ideas, while you preach from your mighty pulpit to a crowd of one (that would be yourself). In a few select cases to be discussed at a later date, I think trading Rip would help us.
kevin s.: Chauncey isn’t better than Deron Williams, Baron Davis and Chris Paul. Not a chance. He’s probably not better than Tony Parker or Steve Nash and soon won’t be better than Jose Calderon. He’s not some stud anymore, he’s just a top tier (read: somewhere between 4-10) point guard. The idea that he is the second best point in the league is a patently ludicrous claim.
JackDutch: Just cuz I said I didn’t want Carmelo but am interested in the Nuggets doesn’t mean I suddenly want Iverson either. You shall see, my friend.
And all this Kaman/Dalembert mockery stuns me. Disagreement is fine, but mockery is simply unwarranted. We were 21st in rebounding due in large part to a center who can’t even haul down 7 boards a game while playing over 30 minutes (read: f’n pathetic that he’s on par w/Perkins, Scola and Darko and plays plenty more minutes than any of them on top of that). I don’t care too much about rebounding personally, but everyone was bitching about rebounding when we were losing to Boston, and now I make an effort to solve that problem and people mock the idea? Quaint.
Chris Kaman finished 3rd among all centers in rebounding this year (behind only Howard & Camby), but apparently that still warrants a “laughable” response to possibility of acquiring him. Both Kaman and Dalembert block everything they see (2.8 & 2.3 respectively v. Sheed’s 1.7 despite being on a much better defensive team that ranked 3rd in blocks in spite of Sheed’s average output). Dalembert and Kaman kill Sheed in FG% (51.3% and 48.3% respectively v. Sheed’s paltry 43.2%). Sheed is not some superstar anymore. He’s old, unfocused and he damn sure doesn’t work hard in the paint like a center should. Those guys want to play. They have a hunger to win (especially Dalembert). They leave everything they have on the floor. Sheed seems to leave everything he has at home.
“The idea that he is the second best point in the league is a patently ludicrous claim.”
Patently? On what basis was a patent issued? You have offered assertion in the face of evidence.
” We were 21st in rebounding due in large part to a center who can’t even haul down 7 boards a game while playing over 30 minutes ”
We outrebounded our opponents by a substantial margin, espically on the offensive end. We ranked 21st in rebounding because we play at a slow pace. Fewer shot attempts = fewer rebounds.
We outrebounded Kaman’s Clippers 97-70 throughout the two games in which we faced them.
Do you people think wins happen by mistake?
I think Philly would have to be stupid to trade Dalembert for Sheed.
He has played his whole career with the 76s. He just had his best year and is only 27 years old. He has 3 years left on his contract.
Sheed is 33 and has one year left on his contract.
I don’t see Stefanski trading Dalembert especially for Sheed.
This is from USA Today
“The Sixers want to and need to add talent. Their biggest hole is at power forward, where they crave somebody capable of scoring on the block.”
Sheed is not the guy you want if you are looking for a post up player. We have learned that the hard way.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/sixers/notes.htm
I would forget about any trade involving Dalembert.
As far as Kaman goes. I live in Los Angeles and have watched him a play a lot.
Even if they sign Brand they aren’t going to trade Kaman as long as Dunleavy is the coach. Dunleavy has been Kaman’s biggest supporter since the Clippers drafted him.
—————————————–
I believe that the core group will remain in tack for one more year unless Joe D. can steal someone in a trade. I don’t think that Dalembert and/or Kaman are two guys that can be stolen.
I think the water is a little muddied at the moment. We need a true banger that plays inside out. Sheed is no longer going to put us over the top, hence his value is now measured in what we can get for him. I couldn’t care less how many games we win if it doesn’t bring us a ’ship.
“Both Kaman and Dalembert block everything they see (2.8 & 2.3 respectively v. Sheed’s 1.7 despite being on a much better defensive team that ranked 3rd in blocks in spite of Sheed’s average output).
1) If Sheed played Kaman minutes, he would have averaged 2.1 BPG.
2) On what basis do you suggest that having a better defensive squad around a player results in more blocks for said player? Blocks are a “last resort” mode of defense, are they not?
“Dalembert and Kaman kill Sheed in FG%”
Oh, come on. Sheed made 36% of his three-pointers, and you would have to shoot 54% from two-point range to cover that disparity.
“Do you people think wins happen by mistake?”
Man, I’m all for friendly discourse about how our team can improve, but seriously– reading Kevin S.’s responses are like listening to nails on a chalkboard… fortunately we can rest assured that your no-one-is-right-but-me nonsense should be taken with a grain of salt.
LB
I think we will all be surprised to find that Hamilton is the only tradeable “asset” this team has, realistically speaking.
We just spent the entire beginning of the offseason talking about not picking up crappy contracts and you take your time to put together deals that involve possibly 2 of the worst deals in the league… and then to even think that the 6ers would “throw in” Andre Miller or Thad Young when Andre Miller is basically the same as Billups and Thad Young is the cornerstone of that franchise if Iggy doesn’t re-sign.
Put me down all you want bro. You will find though that Hamilton is the one who is moved unless Joe somehow works out a hell of a deal that includes Sheed or Billups. I’m not the only one who believes Hamilton is the one who should go, go back to my early comments during the season and count the agreements. Just for you, I hope the 6ers trade Dalembert for Sheed so I can read you bitch about how Dalembert has a horrible contract and is just “another Nazr” for the next 3 years while Joe D can’t trade him.
kevin s.,
the problem with extrapolating and sitting with my hog in my hand stroking it to all these statistics that you’re coming up with, it’s not actual. If Chauncey plays 32 minutes a night, and scores 16 ppg, then he’s going to score what he scores. Once the stat is on paper, you can extrapolate it all you want, I’ll take actual output on the floor over John Hollinger anyday. If the entire starting lineup is only playing 33 minutes a night, and we all think that not playing 35-40 minutes a night is best for the team, then extrapolating to a 36 mpg pace is unrealistic. There are more than a handful of PGs that I’d take on my team over Chauncey, but that doesn’t mean I’m giving up on him nor do I get a hard on at the thought of Billups or Brent Barry being rated highly in true shooting percentage.
Just like Amir, his abilities are best seen in what he gives on the floor, not in a stat sheet. Of course, Hollinger rates him high because he rebounds at a high rate and has blocked shots at a high rate as well. But then when I say during the playoffs “put Amir in for his 6 minutes so he can score his 4 points on tip ins and get 7 rebounds” my thoughts get shot down by stat nerds like you and LB.
Extrapolate Ronald Dupree’s numbers on a 36 or 48 minute basis… he’s the best god damn small forward in the NBA with his 1.2 points per game in 2 minutes a night! Extrapolate Brent Barry or Jon Barry’s numbers over 36 minutes and you’ll find they’re the best white guys in the history of the league!
I’ll take actual performances and past history over a calculator anyday.
oh… and I shouldn’t count Chauncey’s stats from his Minnesota days? Isn’t that the reason why we signed him originally? He averaged 21ppg in a playoff series for the TWolves… I wish he’d put up 21ppg in a playoff series again as our 2 guard with Stuckey running the point and Hamilton’s replacement sitting in the post rebounding the ball…
Mike Payne, if you scroll to the bottom of that page you’ll see a “big shot” say that he’ll continue to get playing time through the season and will thrive in the playoffs…
“1) If Sheed played Kaman minutes, he would have averaged 2.1 BPG.”
there’s an old saying that my mom used to use in times like this… I think it went “if your aunt had balls, she’d be your uncle”.
If Sheed played Kaman minutes not only would he average 2.1 blocks but he would have been suspended 1 or 2 games this season for racking up more technicals based on his per 36 minute extrapolation (of course I’m kidding)
@Boney: looking back, that’s an interesting thread. “Big Shot”, whoever that was, gets a +100.
Boney: I’m no stat nerd, trust me. But here’s a stat that matters: 5 years/$60 million. I suppose you must think that’s an example of a good contract, right? When it’s for a part-time player like Rasheed, you love that don’t you? I’d take Dalembert for Rasheed straight up if I got the chance to pull the trigger. Dalembert’s contract is a little pricey, but it’s fine with me when you take into account that the guy works his ass off in the post for the duration of every game (including the ones he gets to play in while Sheed is suspended) and on our squad he would finally be surrounded by wily veterans with postseason experience and offensive excellence at presumably every position. He wouldn’t be playing on a starting front line with NBA all-world scorer Reggie Evans in Detroit, and that would help him maximize his output a great deal. But far be it for you to consider that.
Re: Rip, Joe said everyone is in play, and I’m 100% cool with that, but while Rip can certainly be moved, he is hardly our best bargaining chip and to suggest that is wishful thinking on your part. It’s simply because you hate him without a legitimate reason, always a solid argument for casting a player off.
PS: You might wanna toss aside Andre Miller’s expiring contract for a long-term Chauncey contract if you’re not completely sold on Lou Williams (though Stefanski should be) being the PG of the future or Andre Miller returning to your squad and all the while you want to do everything you can to keep Andre Iguodala while fielding a competitive squad. But far be it for you Boney, to think outside the box of on-court talent and think of future cap implications. That’s simply too much to ask, because it’s too “statistical” or something like that.
kevin s.: Rasheed shot 32% from three in these playoffs. In the last 3 postseasons he’s gotten progressively worse from there while continuing to shoot about 4.5 threes/night in the playoffs. Come to think of it, you’re right and I’m wrong. That’s totally something we need more of, or something we need more than a need for guys who will hustle, happily take direction, shoot about 50% from the field, make thirty-three year old Rasheed look like Chauncey when it comes to rebounding, and will still have a boatload of tread left on their tires in subsequent seasons because neither Kaman nor Dalembert older than 27. Nope, we need a 32% three-point shooting center who takes as many threes/night as Chauncey did this postseason while making far less. Let’s keep that guy, the horrible-rebounding, suspension-collecting, threeball-regressing center.
Matt W.: Thank you for your voice of reason re: Kaman’s contract.
“If Sheed played Kaman minutes, he would have averaged 2.1 BPG.”
)
kevin, if sheed at 33 could stay as productive as he is through kaman’s minutes for the whole season we could keep him. but he can’t. this is why we tried to cut down on minutes during the season right?
I love sheed but he doesn’t rebound the ball and i think dyess showed much more intensity than sheed in the playoffs so i say he stays and sheed goes.
“Patently? On what basis was a patent issued? You have offered assertion in the face of evidence.”
not everything is a matter of cold statistics. saying someone is the 2nd best means to me that appart from having the 2nd best stat line that he is my #2 choice a point. C-Bill isn’t that. he’s a great player but definately not my 2nd choice.
And for gods sake doesn’t anybody think that we should trade rip before tay? (Boney this question isn’t meant for you. you’d trade him for a used piece of gum
I don’t know about this possibility, just thought of it and floating it out there to see what you guys think:
Sheed for Kirilenko straight up.
Why Detroit does it: Prince and Kirilenko in the same line-up? Frightening. They get a guy who focuses on defense and is willing to do what he has to do to win. He’ll fit in better in Detroit’s offense by not being asked to play the three and creates some difficult match ups.
Why Utah does it: It gives them a fantastic rotation among their big men and allows Boozer to stay in his natural position. They’ve obviously been looking to dump Kirilenko for years now and Sheed’s contract runs out a year before Kirilenko’s. Plus, Wallace turns over a new kinder, gentler leaf toward officials after he converts to Mormonism.
Count me in on the Kaman bandwagon. I don’t think he’s the man defender ‘Sheed is, but he’s younger and a better rebounder. Plus, he actually stays in the post. I agree with LawyerBoy that the Pistons are better served leaving the three-point shooting to players that can make more than 35% of them. The tramp ball is an effective weapon, but only if it goes in.
Look, the Pistons are primarily a jump-shooting team, particularly reliant on mid-range jumpers. That is not the most efficient shot to take. The Pistons have had success with it because of Rip’s somewhat unique skillset and a deliberate effort get good mid-range looks through multiple screen sets or McDyess pick & pops.
When the league’s defensive rules changed a few years ago, it became easier to score in the paint from penetration. Dumars has been paying attention; that’s what Stuckey was brought in to do. In order to have a more effective offense, the Pistons need to score in the paint whether from penetration or posting up. Chris Kaman can score in the paint and rebound. I don’t see why trading for him is such an awful idea.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with Kaman. The less-likable part of the original Clips trade being discussed was Tim Thomas and Cat Mobley.
I understand having to make contracts match-up, but I would rather simplify the package with the primary pieces being Kaman and Billups. Not meaning to say Billups and Kaman are equal talent, just a starting point addressing both teams’ needs.
I still think Dumars was serious when he said he was going for other teams’ best players. Curious to know what/who was meant by that. Will we be disappointed if he settles for second- or third-best?
I also think Kaman makes a lot of sense while Dalembert absolutely doesn’t. Kaman isn’t quite as athletic as Dalembert but he has 2 vital assests that Samuel doesn’t: 1)way more strenght for banging in the post & 2)a set of 2 fully functional hands for use on the offensive end. I’m not questioning S.D.’s hustle… I questioning his ability to make anything but putbacks on offense. ANYTHING.
Dalembert is also going to make $2million more each of the next 3 years (Kaman does have an extra year though). There seems to be great speculation of players’ salaries and how long their contracts last. I’m sure some of you already use HoopsHype salary tracker but it might make the scene clearer to others.
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/philadelphia.htm
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/la_clippers.htm
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/detroit.htm
I’m not saying they are 100% accurate (ask Matt because I have no idea) but it gives you a more accurate perspective.
I know Joe is thinking top players, but I think Collison could fit real well with what we’re talking about in this thread. A higher risk/reward would be Z-Bo. Drew Sharp covered it yesterday, but I think we’ve got a solid group of citizens on the team to keep him in line, and his post skills aren’t in question, just his head. So was Roscoe. I’d also like a sign and trade on Jamison. His current 16 mil. contract is killer, but I’m guessing his market value is closer to 10-12 now. A little more out side shooting then I’d like, but he’s a good guy (for those knocking my Z-Bo suggestion) and can get his own on the block or get to the line.
“Sheed for Kirilenko straight up.”
I like it. AK47 likes playing PF rather than SF anyway. Problem is we’d have to bring in a natural center to cover for it.
On second thought we’d have 4 players who can play PF (dyess, AK, Maxi, johnson) and no center. scratch that…
LB…Firt of all, thanks for taking the time to put all this together. As you’ll see I’m not a huge fan of either trade scenario, but this is just my opinion, so i’ll post my thoughts.
Phili trade scenario…personally I wouldn’t want to do this trade. A good friend of mine is obsessed with Sixers and the two people that frustrate him the most are Dalembert and Green. In this trade we’d be taking on roughly 14 million extra per year for 2009/2010 and 2010/2011, which wouldn’t be something I would like to do for a player like Dalembert. I think Philly fans are a bit too hard on him, but for that type of money I just don’t think he brings enough to the table. I also think Afflalo can better fill the role of back up 2 and play 10-15 minutes per game. It seems to me Willie Green is most effective when he’s playing a lot and getting consistent shots, which is something I wouldn’t see happening in Detroit.
LA Clips trade scenario…I wouldn’t want to do this trade either b/c we take on extra salary for 09/10 (about 14 million) and I think T. Thomas would be in Curry’s doghouse the 1st day of practice. If we were to trade 2 of our core 4 I’d be hoping to get a player like Brand/Boozer/Melo/T-Mac (I’m not saying I necessarily want those players, but that level of player) However, Kaman does intruige me. If we could structure a trade around one of our 4 core for Kaman (with a minor player to match up salaries) I’d be interested in looking at. He’s still young, has a big body, and has some pretty good low post moves with both hands. I don’t know this, so I’m asking, but how is he defensively? Is he at least an adequate pick and roll defender?
From what Joe has said about going after #1 guys, I don’t see him making a trade unless it’s for someone who is a low post option on offense or somebody who can create their own shot.
@ohad - I’m of the opinion that you don’t really need a center to be successful anymore. Just so long as you can throw a couple of big men at the Howards and Duncans of the world, you’re fine. I really don’t think that big man rotation would look any better if you threw Spencer Hawes in it. Just so long as we can effectively defend the post, we’ll be fine - and having Tay and AK-47 available for weak side help would be pretty fun to watch. Throw in Max and Amir, we wouldn’t be giving up many easy buckets.
LawyerBoy,
If you want me to be honest, I didn’t want to trade Rip until after the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals. When I watch Billups get trapped at half court by Sasha and Hughes and with LeBron guarding the only other ball handler on the court, it’s hard for me to support his ability.
When I watch as Rip lays on the court after he thought he got fouled, only to run back down the court and scratch and pinch at anyone he can get his hands on so he can then add on a technical foul on top of it… yeah, those actions speak louder than any curse words Sheed can yell in the camera while throwing a towel at it…
When I watch as Rip’s man routinely blows by him on the offensive end of the floor, and then watch him force a jumper because he can’t take his own man off the dribble… that’s why I want him traded.
And also pardon me for wanting to see my favorite team in position to make an impact during an offseason filled with free agents from the 2003 draft class and other big name players. Pardon me for thinking Dalembert is not the answer to all our problems. And pardon me for not citing every single 76ers blog comment section that has outright giggled at the thought of the 6ers actually trading Thad Young.
Also pardon me for not reciting word for word the hatred that 6ers fans have for Willie Green. The time for bringing back hometown heroes ended with the selection of Mateen Cleaves, the acquisition of Webber and the Lions drafting of Charles Rogers.
Pardon me for looking to the future, and possibly hoping that the Pistons continue to run their organization like a model franchise instead of going for an attempted “quick fix” involving stiffs like Kaman and Dalembert. The Yankees, Knicks and Redskins run their organizations like that… if you think guys like Dalembert will care that they’re playing around “proven” commodities after not caring while making a Finals run a few years back, then I’m sorry but you’re sorely mistaken
Mike Payne,
How are my comments any more unreasonable than other comments? I think everyone thinks they are right. That said, you might’ve linked to my preseason prediction that Kobe would win MVP
“Let’s keep that guy, the horrible-rebounding, suspension-collecting, threeball-regressing center.”
First, I am not saying we keep him. I am just pointing out what his value is should we choose to trade him. Sheed for Kaman straight up would be nice, but is not likely to be an option, and Dalembert is not the dominant post defender you make him out to be.
“And for gods sake doesn’t anybody think that we should trade rip before tay?”
I put them on equal footing in terms of their contribution. But the key to a trade is what you get in return. If an Amare Stoudemire is on the table, how can we get him?
Tay’s value is sky-high right now. He is regarded as an unrecognized all-star. That means we would be able to get an all-star in return.
Hamilton’s reputation is that of a one-dimensional scorer. While this characterization grossly undersells what Rip brings to a team, it means that we would be looking at getting a second-tier player in return.
Matt, LB, and DBB … I write for the Philadelphia City Paper, saw this post and wrote up a response from what our POV. It’s the second pingback (under sports complex) there.
We’re in a tough position, in that “win win” trades tend to happen between teams with different time horizons. I.e.:
Team A has a chance to win now but is probably a piece away. Thus their marginal utility for one more good player is very high — it could mean an NBA title. They have a couple young, attractively priced assets/contracts and some expiring salary.
Team B has no chance to win now. The marginal utility from a good, slightly overpriced player is almost negative — they’d rather lose more, get a higher pick, and save cap space to sign someone to an efficient deal — so they can win tomorrow. Team B wants more young, cheap assets and cap space.
Perfect example of this is Team A as Boston, Team B as Seattle. Both teams won in that deal. Boston doesn’t win the NBA title (I’m assuming it happens) without Allen. Seattle gets a solid rookie (who are always undervalued, since any good rookie would get more if he could enter free agency as opposed to staying on his rookie contract) in Jeff Green.
The problem for us is we are Team A. We are probably a piece away from a title. But it’s really tough to do a “core for core” swap with another Team A. So you are left trying to do a fairer version of the KG/Pau trades with a Team B. But we don’t have an Al Jefferson (Joe has made it abundantly clear Stuckey isn’t going anywhere, and we have no one else who is that coveted). And the Pau trade was just absurd. So now you’re trying to deal someone from our core to a Team B — and why would such a team want Billups and Wallace, who both will be declining right as their cores grow up?
I think there are only two ways out. You find a Team B that thinks it’s a Team A (this is why GMs love trading with the Knicks — they’ll take a veteran you don’t want and give you a sweet draft pick and/or young players.) Or you have to do a Team A to Team A trade where you blatantly rip someone off on valuation (i.e. Sheed and Maxiell for Boozer! Billups for Amare!)…which is even harder to pull off.
I have never posted here before, and usually try to refrain from such absurd flame-wars as these, but I am someone who happens to really like Rip AND think that he is our most valuable asset. Here’s why:
1) Automatic 20ppg, even on a “bad” night when his shots don’t seem to be falling. This consistency is EXTREMELY valuable to a team looking to make the playoffs or produce more offense, especially when he has proven himself to be a willing and gritty perimeter defender. Some people make the argument that he “can’t operate” on his own, but the idea is that we would theoretically be trading him to a team with a good enough point guard to maximize Rip’s off-the-ball abilities; anyone interested in him will know that he needs to be fed the ball off screens.
2) He played very well throughout this year’s playoffs with some small injuries, showing that despite Detroit’s often-anemic offense he can still get buckets with the best of ‘em. His value is currently sky-high and his proven, extensive championship work-ethic cannot be questioned; any team looking for veteran savvy and scoring is drooling at the prospect of Hamilton right now.
3) Stuckey and Rip do not have the “it” rapport that Chauncey and Rip do. This “it” rapport (also seen between Chris Paul and Tyson Chandler etc…) is VERY evident between Stuckey and Amir Johnson, making it more obvious when Stuckey can’t seem to find Rip correctly off screens. A more minor point, yes, but something that must be considered with Stuckey being a guarantee to stick around.
And, THE MOST IMPORTANT/OBVIOUS REASON WHY RIP IS MOST TRADEABLE:
4) Dumars has said multiple times (forgive me for not having links, I am at work) that the “ideal” backcourt that he has envisioned since his opus began in 2001 includes 2 *big combo-guards* who are BOTH able to run the offense AND score at will through slashing and shooting.
The idea behind this is that anytime someone trapped Chauncey for the last three years, our half-court offense would sputter and stall because passing it to Rip is NOT the same as passing it to a PG. Billups and Stuckey (who I have always observed to play really well together) would be the PERFECT backcourt in the eyes of Joe Dumars because they are both entirely capable of running the offense if one of them is trapped. The only caveat here is the recently-questionable work ethic of Billups, and this is the reason why I think theres a chance he still might be traded. However, if Billups either A) buys into Curry’s new system realizing that he will be benched if he slacks off or B) sees that Stuckey will surpass him soon if he doesn’t step up his game, a motivated and hard-working duo of Stuckey and Billups could be come the new prototype for successful guard combinations in the NBA.
Of course having 3 guards with Stuckey coming off the bench could acheieve a similar result, but once again Dumars is trying to make a big move and NEEDS to get rid of a major player from the Pistons’ core in order to do so. Hamilton’s scoring cannot be easily replaced, however the conventional wisdom (actually it seems like an obvious certainty to me) is that Stuckey will continue to hone his offensive game and start producing a whoooole lot of points real soon. If we were to bring in a legit scoring forward or big man by way of this theoretical Hamilton trade, the scoring void could be covered with ease.
Again, I really like Hamilton and his game but think its obvious that he has the most value in a trade. Billups, who was my favorite player for a long long time, has shown that he is a little slower and a little less willing to get his hands dirty and play “old” Chauncey basketball. In the ‘04 playoffs/finals, he stepped on to the court every night trying to PROVE to the world that he was as good as he knew he was… now that he really has proven this, it seems like he has lost the underdog fire that made him so spectacular. He is simply not the player he used to be, but I think if we allow him to be paired with Stuckey and assume an efficient-facilitator role, his intangible non-stat based impact on the game will flourish while others fill up the box score.
Granted there will be teams looking for a vet PG to take them to the next level (for instance I think Orlando could easily win a title with Billups running pick and roll with Howard), but if Dumars is looking for equal value I think he will move Hamilton in favor of his wet dream combo-guard backcourt.
RE “Team A and Team B” analysis posted by Forty.
I think Denver qualifies as another Team A looking for change. Carmelo could be a top-notch player if the right staff gets through to him (defense). I know there’s some anti-Carmelo folk out there.
There’s several other teams that are not quite good enough, but not bad enough to comlpetely rebuild, like LAC and PHI… GSW and ATL come to mind.
Aaron — totally agree on Denver and Carmelo. That’s one of the clear examples where a deal could happen. A lot of people here seem to hate Melo. But I remember a lot of people (not necessarily on this forum, just in general) saying how soft Pau is, etc. Funny how when you put these guys on good teams, the wins seem to come.
Melo has some obvious flaws (defense, character), and I don’t love him. But he’s a talent, and for the right price I think you pull the trigger. As Chad Ford points out — when you’re trading 30 year olds for established 24 year olds, the team getting the young guy usually does better.
I do think the other teams you mentioned are squarely in the Team B camp. Agreed they don’t want to gut their whole team. But they shouldn’t be looking to get Chauncey Billupses…they should be looking for Amirs and Stuckeys.
From popular opinion i gather that the Pistons are probably seeking a combo guard and a proper C? Are both possible? Who are some combo guards they could target?
Monta Ellis?
Arenas?
Forty -
You really believe ATL and GSW would prefer to “lose more and get a higher pick”? Haven’t their fans suffered enough?
Maybe there should be a third category for teams in complete limbo.
I agree that popular opinion seems to be that we need a true center, but does anyone mind explaining why exactly? Isn’t Bill Laimbeer the last true center we’ve had (unless you consider Okur one, which I don’t)? I agree that we need an increased post presence (or at least a post guy who shoots fewer than 4 threes per game), but why are we enforcing a height requirement? What team out there would really exploit us with a rotation of Max, Amir, Dyess, and Someone Else? I’m just not seeing it.
I guess the whole balance of the starting line-up is in question, and that makes any speculation difficult. Hate to state the obvious, but different players will provide different production.
Here’s hoping we start to get steady/good production from Maxiell and/or Amir. One of those guys alongside a solid PF/C would be great…. like Brand.
kevin s.,
I think you’re the one undervaluing Rip with your description of him being a scorer and that’s it. Rip is a valuable asset, but he’s not valuable enough to go 1 for 1 for a superstar because he himself is not a superstar.
Are you completely out of your mind??? None of those trades are good!!! I mean I would kinda like the fact that Thaddeus Young and Andre Miller plays for us but not the others. I’m sorry, but Tim Thomas, Samuel D, and whoever else is so ewww…their game is not all that!!! And if you get a chance, smack Drew Sharp for even considering Zach Randolph…I mean the guy has a horrible attitude, he’s fat just like Eddie Curry, and he’s lazy (doesn’t like to work out)! I rather take a chance on someone like Allen Iverson…LOL
@Aaron N:
Between Biedrins, Davis and Ellis, Golden State’s top contract priority is likely in keeping Monta Ellis. If it is not, they’re insane. I don’t see any way of them letting Ellis walk. However, I have mentioned a few times here on DBB that the only improvements over Rip that I would want in a SG is Ellis and Kevin Martin. Both are likely impossibilities though…
I posted that Kaman to Billups trade idea last week. I think it clutters it up to throw in anything else but draft picks and I can’t see Dumars taking on a bad contract. A long contract (Kaman) is already risky enough.
I like Kevin Martin, even though watching him shoot jumpers hurts my eyes
Ok, first let me start off by saying I see where you are coming from. You are upset that the pistons lost in the ECF again and want to see some hungry new blood…
In no way do I want to discredit your opinion, but:
Look at the sixers and clippers w/l records with those players.
Then look at the pistons w/l records with their players. In both of those scenarios, that is trading down, big time. Yes, we are all frustrated, but the clippers did not make the playoffs and the sixers were the worst team to make the playoffs in years.
If you really think mobley or kaman or dalembert will take our team to the ecf, or even the playoffs, you might not have been watching basketball the last three seasons. By no means are these players difference makers on championship teams. Why trade all stars for role players?
Every year for the past three seasons every fan in detroit has a fit and decides that our whole roster needs to go, because they didn’t make the finals. In case you watched, the celtics just killed the lakers in 6 games, just like they beat us in 6. They were the better team this year.
Any smart bball fan would tell you that we shouldn’t trade any of our perennial all stars for mediocre underachievers. All stars get traded for all stars.
We didn’t get to the conference finals because our team is incapable or not talented.
Spoiled, spoiled, spoiled.
Go ahead, let’s trade Wallace for Dalembert. Let’s see the results. Didn’t we beat the sixers this year? hmmm….
Don’t get ridiculous because we didn’t beat the celtics.
The clippers or sixers will definitely have the last laugh if we pick up any of these losers.
Here’s a tip. Think big. Kaman, mobley, dalembaert =yawn.
average players for proven winners never works.
peace
You know what, I can’t even believe half the stuff I’m reading on here.
Just coming back one more time to say this: San Antonio lost in the conference finals too…
And their fans aren’t looking to trade Duncan, Ginobli, or Parker.
Let’s be fans and let Joe do what he does.
@Bill:
“Let’s be fans and let Joe do what he does.”
And while Joe D. does what he does, let’s all have fun here on DBB speculating on what our team COULD do. That’s the whole point.
And to suggest that adding someone in a sixers or clips jersey would bring the fate of those teams to the Pistons is more than a stretch, its silly.
Really out of all the rumors I’ve heard, the only one that gets me excited is the thought of sending out Billups for one of the top picks. Beasley or Rose in Detroit? Frightening. There’d certainly be some growing pains, but teamed with Stuckey and Amir the upside would just be incredible.
I’ve thought a lot about Miami’s pick. Seems like they are in the “win now” mode with Wade. How about Chauncey/Prince for Marion/Banks and #2 pick? Banks’ contract is ugly, but that might be the motivating factor for Miami.
Of course, I’d prefer to develop Amir/Maxiell over Beasley. But if Rose fell to us we would have a pretty sweet backcourt for the future. Maybe swap the first two picks in some pkg with the Bulls since they have more use for Beasley?
Just throwing something out there. … thinking out loud.
Bill -
The Spurs won the whole thing a couple more times with Duncan/Ginobili/Parker. And they have Greg Popovich. I’m pretty sure if they were healthier they would have given the Celtics a much tougher series than LA did.
I do think Detroit has a better outlook on the future as things stand right now though. And all of us are OK with letting Joe do what he does, but HE started all this speculation himself.
Hey guys I’m a born and raised philly guy who loves the sixers. I gotta say its No suprise this is a HOMER Piston’s page! Nothing wrong with that mind you, just worth pointing out because the trades mentioned up top are CRAZY from the Sixers perspective.
There is NO way our GM would EVER trade Dalembert for Rasheed straight up. Yes Rasheed is a better player talent wise, offensively and baskteball IQ wise. But Dalembert is much younger, stays close to the basket, blocks shots better and although he has hands of stone and can’t finish when confronted with even token pressure from ANYONE, you can still count on him playing hard everynight and not getting techs.
Rasheed would be great NEXT to Dalembert, but not in place of him. Why would sixers get rid of the key to the sixers young defensive minded athletic team, in favor of a guy who is much older, is on a one year contract and could disrupt the chemistry of the team by taking plays off and coasting. We could deal with that if dalembert was there to pick up the slack when rasheed disappears, but it would be deadly if he were the only reliable starting center on the team.
If there is a way to get rasheed without giving up dalembert, I’m willing to listen.
Dalembert/Thaddeus Young for Wallace/Arron Afflalo/#29 pick?
again no way, Thad is WAY BETTER and has much more of an upside than Afflalo, plus he’s 6′8-6′9 and a natural sf/pf. Afflalo is 2-3 at 6′4 6′5 we have enough of those. What in the world would we get at 29 that is so great?
Dalembert/Andre Miller/Young for Wallace/Chauncey Billups/future second rounder(s) ?
again no way! chauncey…a BEAST! Wallace, like I said, NEXT to dalembert would be great, just not in place of him. Again young… we’re not giving up a young talent for a future second rounder!
My suggestions…
Here’s a PHILLY Homer trade, not sure if it works in trade machine
Our 11 1/2 million cap room (regardless of what we sign Andre Iguodala and lou williams for, we will have no less than 10 mill available) and iggy, for rasheed and and prince.
Gives pistons cap space to make another trade and you get a freakishly athletic swing man. we get rasheed to play next to dalembert and a great defensive and smart small forward.
Phillyman -
Rasheed defends and blocks just as well as Dalembert, if not better. He’s smart. And what’s the point of dalembert staying near the basket if he can’t catch a pass? Rasheed’s part-time post game is more effective than Dalembert’s full-time post game.
By the way, a lot of us Pistons folk didn’t like the deal to begin with (Dalembert’s contract) and proclaimed Philly wouldn’t part with Young.
I do agree though, that rasheed/Dalembert together would be ideal. And personally, the Prince/Wallace for Iggy deal is intriguing.
Question 1: We’re homers for thinking Philly would make a straight up trade for the guy you say is “better player talent wise, offensively and baskteball IQ wise”?
Question 2: What is a natural sf/pf? So it’s a good thing to naturally not have a position?
Question 3: You think you’d get Wallace AND Prince for Iggy? Think one starter and one or two bench guys for him. Like maybe a Prince and Maxiell deal. And maybe the #29. No way you’re getting two starters for a number two guy.
Iggy = Trevor Ariza getting starter minutes.
I like the following trades going down:
Piston’s Chauncey/Tayshawn for Denver’s Carmelo/Marcus Camby
and
Houstons Tracy for Pistons Hamilton/Rasheed
starting five
1. rodney stuckey
2. Tracy McGrady
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Antoino McDyess( sorry if i spelt that wrong
5. Marcus Camby
if we could somehow magiclly pull that off, we would be the next NBA CHAMPS!