It’s not often you see a team dominate the rest of the league from wire-to-wire, but the Celtics were hands down the best team in the world from the first game of the regular season to the end of their 39-point thrashing of the Lakers last night. Congrats to the team and its fans for winning the 17th NBA title.
While part of me still resents how that team came together (two future Hall of Famers can be had for a couple of good young players and spare parts?), anyone who’s ever cheered for the Pistons should be able to appreciate the Celtics’ approach to the game: going balls out 100% of the time and imposing their will on defense.
Also, here’s to hoping Boston’s performance puts an end to all the chest-pounding about how good the West is. I’m admittedly biased, but I don’t think I’m alone in thinking there’s not any question that the best two teams in the league were in the East this year.
That was a dominating finish. As I posted in another thread, while I don’t particularly like the Celtics (the “buy a bunch of free agents” and jersey-popping stuff), I must admit they proved critics wrong. Their role/bench players stepped up — and honestly, turned out to be better than anyone outside Boston had thought; the Big Three didn’t get tired; whatever it was that caused those puzzling road losses in the first two rounds (especially to the Hawks) disappeared; and Ray Allen re-appeared.
Meanwhile, LA looked — not just last night, but for much of the series — lost, soft, and without any of the intensity Boston was bringing. A real disappointment for a team that looks very good on paper and looked very good in the Western conference playoffs.
Re the West vs. East, the East has now won three of the last five NBA championships, with three different teams doing it, while the West has only the Spurs’ two ’ships.
So, what do folks here think Boston is going to be like next year? Do they have another, even more imposing run, with the bench/role players more experienced and confident, and the Big Three still Big? Or do they have some weaknesses?
And what about LA? With Bynum healthy, are they more formidable? Do they make some sort of trade or other move?
Like Matt, I think it’s pretty obvious that Detroit was the second best team in the league this season and would’ve beat LA in the finals. Too bad they didn’t give themselves a chance to prove it.
As for what next year holds for Boston I have no clue. What I find interesting is how different the off-season approach will be for the best and second best teams. I don’t think Boston will be making any big changes, and they are just as old as the Pistons. Being runner-up is disappointing, but I’m not sure there are any moves Joe D could make to improve the team next season. I hope he doesn’t do anything foolish.
1.) Congrats to Boston. All season they played like the ‘04 Pistons (as if their lives depended on each game). The way KG played with passion and desire is what Joe D. is talking about. We could all do without the chest pumping, but I’m referring to how he plays. It must be nice to be a Boston sports fan right now, Between the Red Sox, Patriots & Celtics. They almost pulled off the tri-fecta. But they don’t have Lord Stanley’s Cup
2.) I HATE Boston, but I must be fair to them and the Lakers regarding these trades. Can someone tell me what the hell we gave up for Sheed? Wasn’t it a bag of doughnuts and we gave up Lindsey and he came right back 2 weeks later after clearing waivers. Come on DBB nation, lets keep it real. Someone please tell me whats the difference cause I don’t see one.
3.) It’s time for a Superstar on this squad to get another ship. The overall talented team approach worked in ‘04, but we’ve been beaten 3 straight years by individual talent (Dwayne Wade, Lebron, Pierce [& KG]). We need someone who can take over the game. Their has been a lot of discourse about Melo. Can’t believe I’m saying this, but if he’s the only superstar we have at our finger tips and we give up Tay and Big-Ego, I mean Big Shot, then fine. Stuckey, Rip, Melo, Sheed, Max. Bench: Dixon, Amir, Dice, Afflalo, Hayes. If we can move the 29th pick & Dice for a slight big man upgrade, I’d do it. Lets go Pistons!!!!
How would people feel about giving up Rip for Josh Howard (Mavericks) straight up. And looking at a starting five of Stuckey, Josh Howard, Melo, Max, Sheed. Stuckey, Melo (I think) and Josh Howard can all go to the rack. We know what Maximus can do on the inside. If Max can take another step up and be consistent, maybe avg. 12-13 pts, 7-8 rebs, 2 blks, and Amir gives us a ton of energy, defense and 8-9 pts, 5-6 rebs, 1.5-2.0 blks, Afflalo developes a consistent jump shot and Stuckey plays like he played in the playoffs, look out. I really think I like Melo, Howard, giving the young guns a chance to step up. Wonder if its anyway we could get Diop out of Dallas for some pkg involving Dice & a pick or something like that. Open to critique and criticism.
Pretty sure both Howard and Melo play the 3
For those who say Max is simply too small too depend on, I give you Charles Barkley and Ben Wallace. They guy won 4 defensive player of the year awards and led the league in rebounding being undersized. Sir Charles is a hall of famer and if memory serves me correctly, Charles wasn’t kickin ass 2-3 years in. He blossomed over time. If Max can continue to improve, as he did from last year to this year, man look out. I just remember him dominating I believe it was game 5 against Cleveland last year. Maybe he had something like 15 & 8, maybe 3 blocks in like only 20 mins. Go ahead and correct the numbers you stat geeks but you remember the game and you get my point. For the record, I don’t want Delembert for Sheed. We’d still lack a post presence at the center spot. Can’t speak on Kaman. I think Sheed needs to go but unless we get a major upgrade, the hell with it, keep him. Just lessen our dependence on him. Cut his mins down to maybe 28-29. Maybe he can give us what we need if we aren’t expecting him to carry too much of a load. He seemed to be comfortable being Ben’s big man side kick versus now he’s the big brother on our squad (as far as big men). I love that expiring contract man. Isn’t next years free agent class supposed to be ridiculous. I really think our future (very near future that is) is very bright if Stuckey, Max, Amir & Afflalo continue to improve. I’m not expecting any of them to be all-stars yet. Just another step up from Max like this year, another step up from Stuckey, as he did as the season progressed, maybe Amir can pull a Maxiell and step up next year. If Afflalo kicks in a little, I think we improve in a major way regardless of what moves do or do not get done. But we have to cut the core down maybe an additional 5 mins each if they stay. Keep all those cats at 30 mins maybe.
Cheers, you don’t think Howard could play the 2? Ignoring the potential position conflict with Melo (in my scenario), what do you think of him on our squad?
Congrats to the Celtics. They have a likeable team but I hate A) that they tanked last year and B) that they got two solid citizen superstars at head case prices. Congrats to UConn great Ray Allen most of all. I’ve enjoyed A LOT of that guy’s basketball over the years. It seems like yesterday he was rattling in a shot in the lane to win the Big East championship in the Garden or playing lights out in a crazy Elite 8 loss to UCLA. Ray Allen smiling when he finally found his jump shot in the playoffs in Game 2 against the Pistons was a great moment.
@E-Double:
Why would we need Josh Howard if we already have Tayshaun Prince? They’re very similar players, yet Tayshaun is better. While I don’t cite PER much, Tayshaun is rated at 14.19 vs. 7.77 for Josh Howard. Even if we could dupe Tay and put his clone at the 2, I think we need someone with a different skill set in that position.
From what I saw out of the Lakers, your Pistons get the silver medal this season. The real championship was two weeks ago.
The Cs vulnerability the first two rounds was a result of not having to play meaningful basketball the three weeks previous to the beginning of the playoffs. Once the Cs were steeled by the challenges from the Cavs and the Pistons and came out on top, the banner was in the bag.
Every title team since the Jordan Era was built questionably, from the convenient Shaq free agency coinciding with the change in the CBA, to the Spurs tanking to get Duncan, to the Sheed for a bag of spit trade, to (a lesser extent) Zo back to the Heat and JWIll and Posey for an expiring contact to Memphis, to the KG for Al Jefferson and a bunch of guys deal this past summer. I can understand how Pistons fans don’t like the way the Cs were put together, but that’s SOP for building a champion in today’s NBA.
The Celtics went from being a joke to being one of the ten best teams in NBA history in one season. That’s the best turnaround in American team sports history and their Game 6 evisceration of the Lakers was more a coronation than a victory.
I hope the Pistons keep their team together one more year and just try to develop Amir and Stuckey, as well as add one decent veteran big, and I hope we face off in next year’s ECF. Then the winner can move on to whatever softie comes out of the West.
“Sir Charles is a hall of famer and if memory serves me correctly, Charles wasn’t kickin ass 2-3 years in.”
Your memory is doing you wrong. Chuck averaged 23 points, 15 rebounds and 5 assists on 60% shooting in his third season. I think Maxiell has some room for improvement, which will come with a more defined role.
As for Howard, he is assuredly a small forward, and was sometimes used at the 4. While he has the quickness to play the 2, he defends the 3 very well and is a solid rebounder.
Which begs the question, what about Prince? His value is sky high right now, and Cuban can’t be happy with his roster as is, especially at the defensive end. Would Prince + some sort of treat be enough to pry him away?
“While I don’t cite PER much, Tayshaun is rated at 14.19 vs. 7.77 for Josh Howard. ”
It was 18.4, and this was an off year for Howard. His playoff PER was 7.7, but that was a pretty small sample size.
* Takes Solace once again for the 3rd time in 4 years in knowing we lost to the eventual champs*
Josh Howard can guard the 2/3 on the floor, but I don’t know how well he’d do in a position where he handles the ball on a consistent basis. He has a nice stroke from 3, his mid range game is pretty suspect. He does have the ability to rebound well, and provide size mismatch if he’s playing the 2.
He still won’t be able to stop LeBron… which is why I believe we need a bruising type big man that clogs it up in the paint, who doesn’t care about points…
TripleOT and :
All entirely fair points, with maybe one exception (and this goes to the second point in E-Double’s first post too). Yes, in ‘03 -’04 Detroit made an advantageous trade to get Rasheed. But at the time — and folks in Detroit really should remember this — it was considered a risk. ‘Sheed was known as a head case, problem on and off the court (we had to be repeatedly assured that his teammates liked him), technical foul machine, and general huge risk for disruption. As it turns out, he fit in extremely well with Detroit that year and next year (although problems with Flip did surface after that). It would sort of be like trading for Ron Artest in the last year or two — you know there is talent, but you would probably get a pretty big discount. NOTHING like trading Kwame friggin’ Brown for Pau Gasol, for example.
I think these playoffs showed that Detroit was probably the #2 team (although I’m now more puzzled at how easily the Lakers beat the Spurs — was San Antonio really that tired from the N.O. series?). Which makes me wonder even more about Detroit making big moves. Then again, if they don’t, maybe they are the #2 team again next year.
I made a similar comment in a prior post, but the Cavs did extend the Celtics to 7 games (sure, the Hawks did too, but clearly they were an inferior team). As much as I love the Pistons, it’s not clear to me that the Pistons were necessarily the second best team. But for a huge play from PJ Brown, it might have been a Pistons-Cavs ECF and the Celtics would have been sitting at home, cursing a monster Game 7 from LeBron.
J makes a good point about the Cavs — with everyone healthy, they were pretty darn good. That’s why we all thought it would be such a big deal that we got to play Orlando and Boston had to play the Cavs, and it seemed to be working after Detroit got rid of the Magic in a not-seemingly-terribly strenuous six games, while the Celtics just got by Cleveland in seven. Oh well.
I haven’t read any Cavs’s forums, but I wonder what Cleveland and its fans think the Cavs need to do for next year.
I don’t think the Cavs did much to suggest they were a legitimate contender this year. They were a 45 win team that didn’t even play to that level (their scoring differential suggests they should have won 40).
I think the Pau Gasol trade was on a different plane from the others. Jefferson’s a very good player, and the T-Wolves got a lottery pick, an expiring contract, and a solid rotation player in Ryan Gomes. While I’d like to join the chorus of cynicism, I’m not sure they could have gotten a better deal.
Our trade for Wallace was essentially the equivalent of picking him up off waivers.
Joe also give up a draft pick that ended up being Josh Smith to get Sheed.
Kevin S., thanks for the correction on Barkley and when he blossomed. QD, pointing out that we gave up a draft pick is ok, but pointing out that it turned into Josh Smith is a little skewed. Meaning, Josh Smith is very nice but he was a very late first round or 2nd round pick wasn’t he? It wasn’t like we gave up a top 10 pick. Great job by the Hawks for drafting him, but I hope you get my point. If we trade a 2nd round pick for a nice backup player this year, and that pick (through great scounting or luck) turns into an all-star player a few years out, does that mean we gave up a lot? Toledo Joe, I partially but only partially agree with you on the Sheed trade. Can I get you to agree to this comment, we should at least “temper” how much crap we talk about Gasol and Garnett trades cause Sheed didn’t cost us a bunch. Can we agree to that? Regarding Josh Howard, I just mentioned him cause he was one of the 5 trades Chad Ford mentioned last week, thats all. I like his athleticism. Someone asked, why do we need him if we have Tay…..cause in my post I was speaking as if the Tay+Chauncey=Melo was going to happen. I love Tay, but he wears down every year. He was phenomenal in the first 2 rounds though. I wonder how we can keep him from fizzling out like this? Chauncey’s arrogant ass has to go, and if Rip parts and brings great value, I wouldn’t cry over spilt milk. Everyone wants Sheed to go, but his best value may be to us, but in a diminished role. Maybe he still starts but cut him down to 28-29 mins and let Maximus and Amir grow up this year. I’d love to trade Dice and 29th pick for Diop though. We need some meat down low, even if its a backup.
The Celtics and Pistons had the two best records in the NBA last year and the Celtics and Pistons both dominated the WC during the season.
I maintain that the Pistons were only 2 victories from winning the Title. If they had beaten the Celtics they would have beaten the Lakers. I do realize that it is certainly open to debate.
Having said that.
1. I don’t think that Joe D. should change the core for next year other than Curry starting Maxiell in November rather than Dyess and givng more minutes to guys like Johnson and Afflalo as well as playing Walker if we draft him. I believe that Johnson and Afflalo will earn more time come October. Stuckey of course needs more minutes.
2. The Pistons can add a good player with their full MLE. Hopefully not another Nazmo.
Finally the Celtics played great defense all year and give a lot of credit to Ainge for hiring Thibodaux as their defense coach.
So I give credit to the Celtics for their winning the title and proving once again that in the NBA when it comes to winning the Title defense is just as if not more important than offense.
E-Double: I will happily agree to “temper.” And I also agree that the trade the Lakers pulled for Gasol was beyond what the Celtics did.
Beyond that, I’m going to agree with pretty much everything Mike says directly above.
@E-Double:
That was me that suggested the Josh Howard trade was dumb– we have Tayshaun Prince, who is essentially the same player, only better. A trade including Josh Howard for Tayshaun Prince better include Dallas giving up something more, like Stackhouse. I doubt that would work out financially, but that is a fair trade.
You mention that Tay seems to be on the decline? The stats suggest otherwise. He played out of his mind in the first two series this post-season. Why did he underperform against Boston?
The same reason he underperformed against Cleveland last season. He can’t handle strong small forwards that have a weight advantage over him. Lebron and Paul Pierce can muscle around Tay– and when Tay is struggling on defense, we all know what happens to his offensive game.
Switching for Josh Howard would make this worse– he’d lose two inches in height to Prince and would have a harder time defending against Pierce and Lebron.
We have a big problem at the small forward position, because the two gatekeepers to the NBA finals are now Lebron James and Paul Pierce. They hold the keys to the finals, and for the last two years Tayshaun Prince has been unable to take those keys away.
We have two options to solve this problem: 1) sign or trade for a backup small forward who has height, weight, and a wicked defensive game. Funny enough, we could find that Herrmann could be effective here. 2) we trade tay + someone else for a starting SF who can shut down lebron and pierce and be effective on the offensive end. This could be an undersized four that can play the wing and the post and shut shit down on D. If we’re trading part of our core, someone like Marion comes to mind. A young player like Thad Young might be possible (although there is likely no way Philly would move him).
My point– If we’re talking about trading Tayshaun, trading for a lesser player like Josh Howard make our problems a lot worse.
Hey Mike P, you missed a couple of things man. 1.) All my comments about Howard are predicated upon the Tay+Chauncey=Melo trade going down first. So we wouldn’t have Tay. I made the mistake of thinking Howard was a 2 and trading him for Rip, not Tay. 2.) I didn’t say Tay was on the decline. I don’t think that at all. I said he wears down during the playoffs. I don’t think anybody is stopping LBJ or Paul Pierce when he’s got it smoking, but if we had Melo at least he could throw 35-40 back at their 35-40. Instead of Tay making them work hard but they still score 35 and he scores 5 freaking pts. I just said Tay has worn down during the playoffs, thats all MP. I still think Josh Howard could play the 2 personally. Stuckey, Howard, Melo, Maximus, Sheed. I think I like that, although I think I’m alone on this one. LOL.
E-double, bad trade for Diop. He got sent to NJ in the kidd trade, and he’s a free agent now. So we could grab him with some of the mid level, if we wanted. Also, how does anyone else feel trading proven assets for player Joe passed on in the draft? J-ho and melo? Not sure if Joe could stomach that….
For the record, I don’t like the thought of T-Mac. He has seen his better days and while he’s only about 28 or so, he came straight from high school so he has 10 yrs tread on those tires man. Plus he can’t stay healthy. When was the last season he played at least 75 games???
Craig, thanks for the heads up about Diop. How would you feel about him as our backup center behind Sheed? Start Maximus and Sheed and let Amir and Diop come off the bench. Don’t know where or how much I play Dice.
Also, good show by the celts. I still hate them, but they earned it this year (with the exception of the ATL series). And, hopefully, this fattens them up a little, and they play a little less hungry next year (see Garnett, Kevin). Wishful thinking probably. Also hope that next season there won’t be so much jersey popping by the C’s now that they’ve been there. A great season, though, and I definitely think that the race next year should be just as competitive, if not more, with chicago and miami adding top level talents to their roasters.
Personally, I’d like Diop as a back up center. Not sure what he’s going to command in the off season, though, since he was a part time starter in Dallas, and has put up some decent #’s when given time. I think a team like washington could use his services, too.
Please no Diop. Ben Wallace has a better offensive game. Diop’s 6 points per 36 minutes are ridiculous. Part of the reason we let Ben walk was because we had to adjust our team to a five-point offense, where every player on the court was a scoring option.
When a player has as many offensive boards per game as he does points in a single season without decent assist numbers, something is wrong there.
Matt I completely agree. The smashing of the Lakers really opens up discussions on whether the best two teams were in the Finals or ECF? And I definately think the ECF was the premiere series of this entire playoffs and the two best teams in the NBA were Boston and Detroit.
Whoa, whoa — the “smashing” of the Lakers?
The Lakers led Game 1 by 5 at the half, and it was close throughout. Game 2 saw the Celtics jump out early, and the Lakers narrowed it to 2 pts late in the 4th. Very close games both ultimately.
LA wins game 3, has ginormous lead in Game 4 that they lose through a monumental collapse; LA stomps all over Boston again in Game 5 early, allows Boston back into game and ultimately wins.
Series is thus 3-2, and frankly the Lakers *really* should have taken game 4 and should have been up 3-2 going back to Boston. But they were also very close in Games 1 & 2.
Yes, they didn’t really show up to play in Game 6; neither did Detroit in Game 3 at the Palace, right after the Pistons had accomplished the feat of being the only team to win in Boston this post-season.
Anyhow, Cleveland’s regular season was pretty poor, sure, but they became a new team in February when they traded away massive parts of their roster, missed LeBron for about 10 games earlier in December (when they went, what, like 1-9 or something?), and even after the trade, continued to have injury issues with people like Boobie and Pavlovic.
When everyone got healthy at playoff time, they did quite well, and took the Celtics to 7 games. And like the Lakers, they came *awfully* close several times in the Boston games (and they also blew out Boston in Game 3 for sure, while Game 4 was slightly closer, but leaning on the edge of blowout/non-competitive).
Anyhow, I do love the Pistons, but it’s not like the Finals went 4-0 or 4-1.
Josh Howard didn’t have much trouble against LeBron or Pierce the last two years.
I’m talking about defense, Kevin. In the last two regular seasons, lebron and pierce fared better against howard than they did against prince.
Hey E-Double
Sorry for the delay in response, the time difference def. takes a tole.
In my humbled opinion, with the way our offense is facilitated, whoever is in the 3 isn’t going to prosper if Rip is on the same floor. Don’t get me wrong, I love Rip and his game, but our offense is based around him rolling off screens and making cuts.
Case in point, do you remember last year when Rip was out with an injury and Tay just completely took over games on the offensive side. In fact, I believe it was the Miami game (correct me if I’m wrong) where Tay had 30+ and almost a triple double.
Carmelo is an amazing scorer and can get to the basket, but what happens when you put him on the same floor as Rip? Rip def. is going to lose shots and not be the first option anymore for C-bill off the dribble. How is that going to effect Rip’s overall game and even Melo’s?
If you look to replace Rip w/ Howard, where is the defense on the 2 guard or 3 going to come from? Rip isn’t joking with being the best conditioned in the league. The man can run and defend harder then anyone (he prob. was the most effected by the nba rule changes circa 2004).
So with that said, I’m the first to say that Rip is a great player, but if you want Tay to shine, or anyone playing the 3, on the offensive end, Rip cannot be on the same floor as them. That’s even more so why I’m hesitant about trading for Melo if Rip is still on the team. I don’t see Stuckey as a 2 but more so “becoming” (meaning, not there yet boys) a great PG (ala Chris Paul, Derron Williams).
That’s my two cents. I’m sure someone will bash it soon - so seems to be the common theme on this site.
Cheers
Hey Cheers, you’ll find a friend in DBB-regular Boney, he’s been mentioning that a lot throughout this season (although not as diplomatically as you have).
J
Does a team that wasn’t “smashed,” as another commentor suggested, punch out early after falling behing by twenty? They were destroyed utterly by the C’s, despite a few solid games. Just because indivdual games were close doesn’t mean L.A. competed. They never had a chance in the series, despite whatever “what-ifs” we might choose to argue.
Let’s roll back the tape to Joe D’s “sense of calm” for a second. He obviously saw something he didn’t like, and he didn’t care for, and we’re not talking about Flip’s coaching.
The beating of the Lakers, who were favored despite not having home court advantage, does put some new light on the situation, but I still believe Joe D’s going to make a move, but just one as pretty much all the pieces are in place. They’ve been on the record as preferring to deal the #29 pick, so I’m guessing it’s going to be a guard and the pick, for a post presence. We’ll know more in a couple of weeks or so.
Re: To J
Simply put, that series could of easily been over in 5.
matt watson, i agree 100% with your comments about celtics, and east versus west. is cleveland the third best team? they never get credit but they actually played the celts better than anyone. not that i like the cavs. just respect them more than most. and can we lay off the crazy trade talk now that the celtics have shown the true reason for the pistons loss. the celtics are great. not that i like them. it is just reality. NO SEPPAKU!
PDXPistonsFan, the Lakers didn’t punch out early when losing by 20: they rallied back to within 2 pts, in Game 2.
Look, this was a very competitive series. Game 6, clearly, was not competitive, but the series absolutely was. Honestly, if the Lakers had managed to complete their Game 2 comeback and not melted down in Game 4, we might be discussing the Lakers’ 4-1 smackdown of the Celtics.
Sorry, but I don’t think this was a very competitive finals. It definitely had exciting moments and games… but saying it COULD have been LA winning IF they did certain things is reaching. I mean, IF certain things happened for Boston they would have swept. It goes either way. The point it, you either perform and win or you don’t. LA never “looked” like they were going to win. Even when they were up 24 points they didn’t look like they were having any fun.
That’s just my perspective.
Also, I thought Boston in Game 6 was the only time either team played really good for a full 48 minutes. I expected to see that level of play more often in the Finals.
Odd. Throughout these playoffs, I never thought Boston looked like they were going to win. Certainly not against the Cavs or Pistons (well, actually, after Game 3 I kinda figured we had blown it).
Obviously this whole discussion is something of an exercise in counterfactuals, but my point is that one need only imagine 2 very small things going differently: (1) the Lakers hitting their shot when they trailed by 2 pts in game 2 (I believe their offensive possession fizzled and somebody passed to Kobe late in the shot clock, and his jumper missed), and (2) one or two 4th Quarter shots goes in for the Lakers in Game 4, stopping some of the momentum for Boston (who didn’t actually get the lead until about 2 minutes left, on a freaking Eddie House jumper!).
It’s not like I was positing that the Lakers “could” have won the Finals “IF” Odom and Gasol both averaged 20 & 10. Yes, that is ridiculous speculation. I pointed to two very specific and small things that (a) could easily have happened and (b) would have had a dramatic impact on the series.
I defy you to find two similar such small, discrete moments in the Pistons-Celtics series. I hate to say, but I really think both the Cavs and Lakers played the Celtics tougher than we did.
Oh, a slight revision.
Kobe hit two FTs to make it 104-102 with 38 seconds left. Fisher then fouled Pierce, who hit 2 FTs, and on the next possession, the Lakers didn’t even get the ball to Kobe.
Still, that game was exceptionally close. And my “what if” scenario thus involves a Lakers stop and score.
J:
Yeah, I was just saying in general that I don’t try to play the What-If Game. The outcome of games depends on 48 minutes of play. I don’t think those are two “very small” things. Each possession, every shot, and every second of the game counts. Getting a stop and a score at the end of a game is HUGE! Isn’t that how a large portion of championships are won? I know, a lot of it is perspective, but I see those “very small” things as the defining differences between a great Boston team and a good LA team.
Speaking of possessions…I hate when a team on fire runs out the clock at the end of quarter.. If you’re on fire, run your damn play and shoot the ball!
Boston did look terrible early on in the playoffs, but there is little doubt that once they peaked they were the best team. Ray Allen was unbelievable.
Melo? Why would we want Melo? Detroit is a defensive team, Melo cannot spell defense. Granted, he can average 28 points, but on the other end, Thaddeus Young is going to score 20 and get 15 boards against Melo, I don’t want think what LBJ and Pierce will do against a no defense playing ball hog. That being said, with Rip on the floor maybe Melo will learn how to play team ball if he is not the primary scoring option…but I thought that might happen when AI went to Denver…I was wrong and I don’t see Melo changing for several years.
Fine Aaron N, for the sake of making this point, I’ll call them 2 “huge” things (and I think that calling a couple possessions in the course of a series “huge” things is silly).
So those two “huge” things I identified (a different outcome to the final 38 seconds of Game 2, and a couple made shots in Game 4) made the difference between the Lakers winning and losing the series.
Unfortunately, to reverse the result of the Pistons-Celtics series, I’d say we’d have to point to about 15 or 20 similar “huge” things that could have made a difference. Whether you call a single possession a small or huge difference, it’s clear to me that the Lakers had a more competitive 6-game series with the Celtics than we did. Comparing the two series is the context in which I made the observations, and playing the “what if” game is, of course, necessary to make a comparison between the Lakers & Pistons.
J, I disagree. The Lakers looked intimidated the whole time. Hell, everyone here in LA, thinks they would have lost to the Pistons too and are too soft to win a title.
To play your “what if” game, what if the refs called Garnett for an offensive foul when he hip checked Rip to free Ray Allen up for a shot late in Game 5? What if Garnett didn’t hit three turnaround desperation fadeaway 20-footers at the end of the shot clock in the same game?
Bottom line: The Celtics were better than the Lakers and hungrier than the Pistons.
when Boston won meaningless games,
They celebrated
when they lost they mourned
detroit danced b4 games
Boston sat on the bench and meditated
Fair enough, I forgot about those moments in our series. Probably thinking about them too much was painful (esp the ridiculous banked-3pt shot by KG w/ 1 on the 24).
*shudders*
DJ, just cause you are a defensive team doesn’t mean every single player on your team has to be a great defensive player. I’m not saying we would let Melo get away with just completely dogging it on the offensive end. But he would have to somewhat adapt, period. At least he would make Pierce and LBJ work on the defensive end. Hell, right now they score 35 on Tay when they have it cooking and he score 3 pts on four damn shot attempts. At least Melo could hit them back in the face with 35 of his own. Defensive wins champsionships, we all know that. But on an individual players scale of 1 to 10, if Melo’s defenese can improve to decent, maybe a 5 or 6 and his offense we know is a 10. I’ll take that. Versus Tay and his end of playoffs disappearing acts. I sound like a hater, but I love Tay. But the fact is he has disappeared in 3 straight ECF’s. At least the last two for sure man.
It’s not like Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were known for their defense before this year but their holding the trophy now. Defense is largely reflective of scheme and effort…I’m sure Curry will have a good scheme put in (if it’s not the same stuff we are currently doing) and he’ll be holding people accountable for their effort. IF Melo were to be a Piston I think his defense would be much improved.
*but they are holding…
I agree with E-Double & Jim, I don’t mind Melo, I reckon he has got a lot of improvement that he could make on a more balanced team such as ours. Tay is a very smart player with some good skills, but anyone that thinks Melo wouldn’t be an upgrade needs to lay off the booze. The issue is what it would cost to get him, and we would lose far too much to make a trade worthwhile.
Laughton, you think Tay & No Shot, I Mean Big Shot it too much to give up for Melo???
I cannot imagine giving up our defensive identity for one of the worst defending SFs in the league. Rasheed and Tayshaun are our best defenders, and it is likely that Rasheed will be traded first. If both were traded and we ended up with Carmelo Anthony on our team… that shit just scares me. I wouldn’t recognize our team’s identity next season, it’d be a whole new ballgame. And in the last five years, the winners of the NBA championships have been defense-minded teams. I’m not ready to give that up.
As for calling Chauncey Billups “no shot”, is that because he shoots 40% from downtown, 45% from the field and 92% at the line?
And I’m not trying to be a dick or singling anyone out about the Melo ideas, I just really don’t understand it. I hope, hope, hope that Chauncey is locked in here in Detroit, I think it would be totally foolish to move him. The only real knock anyone can have on Chauncey this last season is that he was injured in the playoffs, which isn’t his fault. He had one of the best careers of his year, he’s one of the premier point guards in the league, yet people here are quick to sell him upstream just to let a sophomore PG take the keys. I love Stuckey, I think he’s got a bright future, but chances are he will never be a Chauncey Billups.
Yeah, at the moment we would lose too much, Tay is a very underrated player and as I have posted before I think Billups still has good value to us. He is a big point guard that can shoot and they seem to kick on a bit longer than the athletic types.
I am not a Rip hater, but I would prefer to trade him than Billups.
Please don’t hurt me
Laughton, I’m with you on that, I’d rather trade Rip than Billups, and I’m very against trading Hamilton. For the right player, though, I’d be alright with moving him.
Ya know, the further we get away from our loss, the less I am willing to move ANYONE. My first scapegoat was Rasheed, and I thought he could get us a decent trade value due to his expiring contract. But at this point, I think I’d rather have a big cash surplus on the books when Rasheed’s contract expires, then give him a mid-level at best to have him on our bench. IMO, Rasheed’s expiring contract is worth more to the Pistons than any other player that I could see us trading him for alone.
I still think we only have two real issues to figure out– we need a good 5 and a backup 3. The former is harder to find, but I think we can find a good option behind Tay with LESS than our mid-level.
I trust in Joe completely, whatever he does I will end up supporting it. But the point I am at now, I either want the squad left the way it is– or making a blockbuster move for a superstar. And in my opinion (and my prayers), Carmelo Anthony is NOT it.
I agree, MP. Joe had such a great long term view. Chauncey’s contract ending when it’s time to re-up Stuckey. Wallace’s contract ending before Amir’s. Etc.
Unless Joe finds a slam dunk. I think he should keep to his plan of growing internally.
As for Tayshaun’s backup. I’d like to see Afflalo get minutes there. What he lacks in size, he makes up for in energy. Stuckey will probably get about 30 minutes a game backing up Rip and Chauncey. That doesn’t leave much for Arron.
The only all-stars out there that appeal to me are T-Mac and Elton Brand.
Hey QD:
Cheers to you, my friend. I agree with you 99%, it would be 100 but I’m not sure if I agree about Stuckey. Above, I mentioned that I felt that Detroits biggest problem is in the SF position, because the ECF gatekeepers are now Lebron and Pierce. Prince just doesn’t match up with them well, due to size and strength. While I love Afflalo, I love his game, I love his commitment, I’m afraid that he would make us even weaker at the SF backup behind Tay.
I suggest we sign an under-sized PF who can play the wing and can SHUT DOWN on defense, as a specialist against Lebron and Pierce (and as I hinted above, Herrmann could possibly be the guy to do this). Who knows who we could get to fill that hole, but it is something I’m tinkering with. My thinking is that if it comes down to it, we use our MLE to sign a player that is good enough to start, but backs up Tay– unless we play CLE or BOS, then this player’s main job is to give Lebron and Pierce holy hell.
In short, its nice to find a kindred spirit, although I know others (like Kevin S.) have suggested this long before I did. I do think that while our squad can get to the ECF next season, we need an SF (backup or replacement) who can defend Lebron and Pierce. Until we get that, our chances of moving on to the finals are dim.
“but I’m not sure if I agree about Stuckey”
that was meant to read “not sure if I agree about Afflalo”.
Mike P:
“we need an SF (backup or replacement) who can defend Lebron and Pierce. Until we get that, our chances of moving on to the finals are dim.”
Those were arguably the two best players in the playoffs this year. I don’t think there is anybody who can defend those two guys. Hopefully we can make a blockbuster trade for a superstar otherwise the best option might be staying as we are (regarding our core players).
I guess I’m more open to Carmelo then you, although I can definitely understand your reluctance to acquire him. I look at the fact that the guy is only 24 and is in one of the worst basketball cultures/structure in Denver. He’d be going to one of the best here in Detroit. When he’s been on team USA in a winning environment with other good players he’s been a much better player/teammate then he is in Denver. I’d be hoping the same could happen IF he came to Detroit.
Wow QD, normally I agree with your assessment of things but you shoot down my Mello thoughts (which is ok), but you replace that suggestion with T-Mac? T-Mac? Tracy McGrady? Are you serious? Broke down ass T-Mac who has never won a damn thing. T-Mac? The dude has 10 years of tread on his tires, or is it 11 years? His health will get worse as time progresses not better. The biggest problem that I have with Chauncey, MP is he’s the most arrogant/complacent SOB on this team IMHO. Between his causual ass attitude “were the best in the world regardless of how many times we don’t make it to the championship anymore”, Sheed’s antics…see game 6 this year and last, and Rip letting the officials completely take his head out of the game, somebody has to go Dude. I’m not saying change just for change sake. We would have to be making an upgrade, but I just don’t think adding a nice backup SF is going to get us to the mountain top. Just let me throw this out about Melo or whatever high scoring superstar we can get: In game 7 Lebron scored 46 pts I think against Boston. That damn sure isn’t good defense by Pierce we could all agree right gentleman. But Pierce threw like 41 back in his face. Meaning, as long as the rest of Bostons team outscores the rest of Clevelands team by more that 5 pts, then Boston wins. Overall team defense definately wins championships, but I would at least love to neutralize Pierce or LBJ as far as their matchup, matching their point total. Fella’s I’m just tired of seeing LBJ or this year Pierce score 35 or so on Tay and he comes back with 3 pts. That aint good defense AND his offense disappears. But in my opinion he was stellar in the first two rounds. I don’t claim to be the next Jerry West as far as GM skills, but I do know this about basketball and life in general. You keep doing what you’re doing, and you’ll keep getting what you been getting. And adding a backup SF alone won’t get it. MP & QD, both of you guys add a lot of basketball wisdom to DBB, but we just have a gentleman’s disagreement on this one. Peace out.
Very well said E-Double.
Cheers, I just know that if we do nothing, we’ll get the same results man.
E-Double…nice post, I pretty much agree with everything you said. Our core group has had a great run, but we’ve lost in the ECF game 6 three straight years and those guys aren’t getting any younger.
@E-Double “DJ, just cause you are a defensive team doesn’t mean every single player on your team has to be a great defensive player. I’m not saying we would let Melo get away with just completely dogging it on the offensive end. But he would have to somewhat adapt, period.”
Detroit is great defensive team becasue together they play fantastic team defense, and individually each of the starters is in the top 5 or 8 defensiviely at their respective positions in the NBA, if we lose that much defense at the 3, the team defense suffers greatly, case in point, Jarvis Hayes is not a good (not really above average actually) defender, throughout the season, it looked to me that the primary play ran agaist Detroit while Hayes was on the floor was very simple “However Hayes is guarding, get him the ball, he can go to the rack, if they double team, pass or drive at Hayes.” Very simple and quite effective. Melo for Prince causes us to become significantly worse on the defensive end, probably by about 8-10 points per game, and I don’t see our half court sets scoring many more points with Melo on the floor vice Prince. AI has called out the entire Nuggets team regarding their desire NOT to play defense (although I think Camby may have been excepted), why, do you believe that Melo starting in Detroit, is suddenly going to measurably improve his defensive abilities? Melo would fit much better on the Wizards, an offense with Arenas, Jamison and Melo could REALLY RUN and it would cause some mismatches at the 2,3 and 4 for a lot of EC teams, we could use Caron Butler(never happen though), he at least plays some defense.
On Trade Machine this works- Denver gets Rasheed Wallace, Washington gets Carmelo Anthony and Steven Hunter, Detroit gets Caron Butler, Brendan Haywood and Oleksiy Pecherov, I don’t think the deal could ever happen though, Washington loses to much.
Here are the Prince-Pierce ECF numbers:
MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OREB DREB REB
AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
G1 Prince, 42 7-16 2-2 0-0 1 3 4
2 0 0 3 2 16*
Pierce, 44 9-18 0-4 4-6 0 6 6
6 0 0 5 0 22
G2 Prince, 44 5-15 0-2 4-4 3 5 8
3 0 1 1 1 14
Pierce, 47 9-16 2-6 6-6 1 3 4
5 0 1 4 4 26*
G3 Prince, 41 2-11 0-1 0-0 2 2 4
2 2 1 1 2 4
Pierce, 38 4-6 2-3 1-2 1 3 4
2 2 1 5 3 11
G4 Prince, 41 3-12 0-2 1-2 0 2 2
3 2 0 1 4 7
Pierce, 39 3-14 0-3 10-11 2 6 8
1 0 1 4 4 16*
G5 Prince, 33 3-7 0-0 2-2 0 4 4
5 0 1 2 2 8
Pierce, 44 5-11 1-3 5-8 0 5 5
6 1 0 1 3 16
G6 Prince, 37 3-10 1-3 3-4 1 3 4
3 0 1 3 3 10
Pierce, 43 8-12 1-3 10-13 0 8 8
3 2 1 1 3 27*
*Denotes High score for team
Notes, Pierce never put up 35 against Prince in the playoffs.
Pierce had 21 TO, Prince had 11,
Pierce had 17 PF, Prince had 14,
Pierce was 36-46/78%{6.0-7.67} (5.11-6.06/84.3%), Prince was 10-12/83%{1.67-2.0} (2.25-2.93/76.8%).
Pierce went to the FT line 3.85 times more than Prince.
Pierce went to the FT line an average of 1.61 times more than in the regular season
Pierce scored 118 pts-19.6 ppg (19.6),
Prince scored 59 pts-9.8ppg (13.2).
Pierce Averaged 5.8 (5.1) REB
Prince Averaged 4.3 (4.9) REB
(#) indicates regular season numbers
Pierce goes to the rim more than Prince, in the regular seaon and in the playoffs.
Pierce scored his season average throughout he ECF, I think Prince did his job, there was no explosion, Pierce was contained, Princes’ defense was fine against Pierce at least as far as the numbers look. Question-Why did Pierce get 24 combined FT atempts in games 4 and 6 and 22 combined in the other 4? (I was unable to watch the games as I was out of the country).
Since I’m feeling too lazy or I just find it difficult to build a guest post around this, I’ll throw these out there since DJ mentioned Denver and Washington (all trades automatically work on ESPN unless noted):
Haywood/Songalia/Pecherov for Sheed/Samb
Billups/McDyess/Samb for Kleiza/Camby/Chucky
Billups/McDyess for Kleiza/Camby/Chucky
Billups/McDyess/Afflalo for Najera***/Camby/Chucky
*** - Unrestricted Free Agent currently so trade working is based on similar contract to current one
Camby is the only true starter on Denver I have ANY interest in. Of course, J.R. Smith, Eduardo Najera, and Linas Kleiza are a totally different story. If we were to jettison Chauncey (especially to Denver, who has a veteran backup PG on their roster), I’d feel a lot more comfortable if we had Chucky in the back pocket just for some added veteran security at PG for Stuckey.
I think Haywood would be a nice addition for this team. I think Songalia is an underrated rotation player. Samb and Pecherov are just thrown in for cap reasons and their mutual lack of production cancels out in my mind. I think Haywood/Songalia for Sheed is VERY fair but it doesn’t work without the Samb and Pecherov contracts. A starting lineup of Agent Zero, Stevenson, Butler, Jamison and Sheed sounds pretty sweet to me for the Wizards. Adding Haywood to our current starting 1-4 gives us a better rebounding, more traditional center presence. It’s likely a pipe dream, unfortunately.
I still have lots of trade ideas, centered mostly around the TrailBlazers. Either I’ll post them, or I won’t
E-Double, I don’t remember posting anything that shot down a Melo trade.
I love Melo’s game, although I am weary of having a guy on the team that would throw a punch and then run away. Maybe we can get Garnett too and form the all-pussy team.
As for T-Mac, yes, he’s a huge gamble with his injuries, but, I think that the Celtics scored by acquiring superstars that were HUNGRY. I have a feeling (could be wrong) that T-Mac and Brand are hungry superstars.
Does anyone know that cap implications of trading McDyess if he retires? I’m pretty sure if he got traded, he would just hang it up. Would the other team still have his contract count toward the cap?
QD: I believe it comes off the books if a player actually retires.