By Kevin Sawyer:
The NBA: Where an offseason that’s as interesting as the regular season happens. While I remain unconvinced of the need to make roster changes before the season begins, here are some moves that would justify such hasty behavior.
Trade Tayshaun Prince for Josh Howard
Could it happen? Howard is the better player by any objective assessment, but Cuban has to be looking to make a change. After Howard’s dismal playoff performance this year, Cuban may well be looking to move him, especially if he can get an outstanding defensive player in return
Pros: Howard would be a dramatic improvement on the offensive end, and is a solid defender as well. He would instantly become a go-to scorer, and should help the Pistons convert in transition. He is versatile enough to play the 3 and the 4, which will be valuable if the Pistons utilize the three-guard lineup this year.
Cons: Like Chauncey and Stuckey, Howard is at his best when he is taking it to the basket. Also, while Prince may have the highest trade value of any of the core, he also has the most respect from the fans. What does it say about the Pistons brand when we respond to playoff defeat by sending away the consummate team player who thrives on the defensive end?
Sign Andris Biedrins for the MLE
Could it happen? Biedrins has to want out. With as few as 2-3 teams expressing any willingness to use cap room on a free agent, I suspect either Biedrins or Atlanta’s Josh Childress will have to settle for the MLE.
Pros: In only 27 minutes per game, Biedrins nearly averaged a double-double, and played like an all-star over the last several games last season. Add to that a scrappy offensive game that would be a nice compliment to our rotation. At 22, he has steadily improved each season, and he would figure to factor into our long term future as well.
Cons: Take his numbers with a grain of salt. Not only did Biedrins play for the fastest team in the NBA (meaning more rebounding opps.), he also played for one of the smallest. If he does settle for the MLE, he won’t do so immediately, meaning any team will have to wait until the fall only to be among half a dozen contenders for his services.
Sign Trevor Ariza
Could it happen? Ariza is probably the best player in the NBA who doesn’t actually play. He has a player option on his contract, and might decide to head for greener pastures (financially and professionally) while he is still young enough to have “upside”. A forward-thinking team might offer the full MLE and a starting gig, and the Lakers have plenty of money if they can recognize the talent, but the Pistons should take a look.
Pros: Ariza is a solid defender, and a great rebounder. He’d be a great fit with a more uptempo second unit. Given his size, he should be able to find minutes at the three or the four, if the Pistons decide to play small, which they will have to if they keep their trio of guards. After a series of stopgaps, Ariza would be a permanent solution with starter potential down the road.
Cons: At 22, Ariza’s game is still raw, partly because teams have inexplicably denied him playing time. Speaking of playing time, we don’t exactly have that to spread around at present. Also, the upgrade from Hayes to Ariza is no sure thing to put us over the top. One also has to wonder whether his injuries will affect his game in the long term.
Trade Sheed for Shawn Marion
Could it happen? This might be a long shot. Marion has a few more days to decide whether to opt out of his existing contract. Marion could get a Chauncey Billups type of contract right now, and jeopardizes his long term stability if he doesn’t take the money. If he opts out, a sign and trade for Rasheed allows Miami to maintain the flexibility of owning an expiring contract while remaining competitive.
Pros: Marion is one of the best rebounders in basketball, and can score without having to be the focal point of the offense. Additionally, he is three years younger than Sheed, which expands the championship window significantly.
Cons: While the evidence is rather slight, Marion has earned a reputation as a locker room problem. He also has a lot of wear on his tires after a decade as an 80 game guy. Miami would want goodies on top, and Marion will want a four year contract. Draft picks are expendable, and Marion’s worth $10M, but what is the squeal point here?
Sign J.R. Smith
Could it happen? You’d have to think so. “Nuggets Match offer for Smith” wins my vote for least likely headline ever.
Pros: Reputation aside, J.R. Smith is an outstanding shooter, nailing 40% of his three-pointers while shooting them (extremely) prolifically. Smith is only 22, and can be a star shooting guard if he keeps his head together, which he began to do last year. As such, he fits well with the now and later make-up of this squad.
Cons: Well, he’s J.R. Smith. There is also a fair question of whether we need another shooting guard. I think we do, and there is no question that we need another three-point threat. At 6-6, you’d have to think Smith could handle a second-string small forward in some matchups.
I’m not crazy about any of these options. Sheed for Marion makes the most sense, but would he fit in with our game? I’m still at the point where the only possibility I’ve heard that gets me excited is trading for one of the top picks (in which case Chauncey would likely be the main piece). Rose/Stuckey/Amir or Beasley/Stuckey/Amir would be pretty damn fun to watch.
Howard is better than Prince by any objective measure? I’m not sure that’s true. I like the Ariza and J.R. Smith ideas (though I’d prefer Smith for his tramp ball). I don’t want Biedrins; he has essentially no offensive game. It’s important to at least have somewhat of a threat on offense at every position. I don’t like the ‘Sheed for Marion trade; it would probably cost too much. Plus, Marion is a 3/4 tweener. The Pistons have plenty of good 4’s and a solid 3.
I think that these are good, realistic options. I don’t necessarily think they are the best options or the most desirable players, but I don’t think they’re bad decisions either. I can’t see LA giving up Ariza, and it’s just tough seeing anyone decide to move to Detroit after living in CA, but who knows?
I like the free agent suggestions, except Smith. I wouldn’t want to do either of the trades b/c trading 1 impact player for 1 impact player at the same position wouldn’t really affect the team the way Dumars wants, plus you run the risk of losing that chemistry.
“Sign Andris Biedrins for the MLE”
I’ve been “campaigning” for this on DBB for quite a while, I think Biedrins has the potential of being a top 5 center. Thing is, I don’t see him settling for the MLE any day. His agent is rumored to be asking for $50 million in 5, and while that might be a bit high, he’ll likely fall into an $8mil/year deal.
“Howard is the better player by any objective assessment”
Not on defense.
Glenn: Ariza’s unrestricted (assuming he declines his $3 million player option), and with Turiaf and Vujacic’s contracts expiring this summer and Odom’s next, me doubts LA is so concerned with re-signing the Trevor Ariza that Phil Jackson (inexplicably?) didn’t seem to want to play. I think he can be had quite easily if the MLE (which I’m not advocating, as it might be overpaying a pinch) is put in play. Without the right to match, LA maybe SOL on Ariza (as if they care).
I think Ariza just exercised/didn’t exercise his option and will be with the Lakers next season.
Oh, and JR Smith f’ng rules. Obviously his attitude is an issue, but if Joe D. were to choose to sign him I have complete faith that our fearless leader would be certain Smith’s attitude wouldn’t pose a problem to team chemistry. As for Kevin’s proclamation, “‘Nuggets Match offer for Smith’ wins my vote for least likely headline ever”, I disagree completely with that. They’ll need to shed some contracts in order to do it in a prudent manner (I’m thinking about $5-7 million dollars worth) but it’s not as if Smith hasn’t seemed to tow the line enough for Karl as of late. He played consistent minutes for the last two months of the season despite being in the doghouse previously.
This is just talk, as GS is nuts if they think they can keep BD, Ellis and Biedrins:
“Mullin knows he’ll almost certainly have Baron Davis back. He has Nelson back. He promised again that Andris Biedrins and Monta Ellis won’t get away during their restricted free agency, even if they get maximum offers.
“They will be matched,” Mullin said.”
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_9645419?nclick_check=1
Ariza is officially out of play.
Don’t forget that Rick Carlisle is the coach in Dallas, so he has a familiarity and appreciate for Tay’s game, which ups his trade value.
I’d do a Prince-Howard deal. Howard might lack on the defensive end, but I doubt he would hold the ball and gum up the offense like Tayshaun did.
Good luck running Howard (6′5) at the 4. He’s at the 3 because he is not a good enough ball handler to be a 2 (a position his height best fits).
Howard is a solid defender, and a good rebounder (7 per game last season) as well as a scorer. He’s never been a go-to guy but, perhaps a year in whatever system we have in place with Curry could put him in a spot to put in 18-22 a night.
He needs screens to get open as well… he’s not a shot creator
as far as the other guys… I don’t like the idea of another european player who cares more about his hair than improving at the free throw line (Biedrins) plus, you think Amir fouls a lot? Wait till Biedrins gets serious run…
JR Smith would be a decent option if he didn’t care more about his appearance and whether his headbands and wrist bands were on straight or not. He’s perfect for a team like the Knicks, Cleveland Cavs or Miami Heat. JR Smith = Ricky Davis
Ariza would be a good option off the bench. What he lacks offensively he makes up for on the defensive end. He’s long, he can make the thunder dunk, and he runs like a gazelle. Doubtful we sign a guy to the full MLE and sit him behind Tay, but I’ve been surprised before (Darko draft, Nazr signing,etc).
Sheed for Marion - Decent trade, but makes the team smaller. Marion is a great defender, and he is perimeter oriented. It gets us a younger, shorter, skinnier Sheed. It’s time for Marion to clock that check too, he’s been waiting to sign a bigger deal since he signed this last big deal with PHX.
I’d make the trade if I had to… I’d still rather denounce Sheed’s bird rights next offseason, use his cap space to sign a stud, and then try to lure him back for the MLE (If that can be done of course).
Smith is ganster! If we brought him to detroit, we’d actually have offense off the bench, and he could play some 3, too. He gets buckets in bunches, and unlike Hayes, doesn’t need a lot of time to get started, nor does he suffer through prolonged shooting slumps. I think the Nugss are a little soft on him since he’s gotten in to so much trouble (but so has most of the team), but I don’t think we’d be the only ones with an interest. I’d love to have JR in a stones jersey.
I also disagree that Howard is better than Tay. It’s even at best.
I also like Ariza but not at the MLE. And I also think Afflalo will be capable of backing up Tay despite his size so Joe doesn’t have to overpay for a backup. Hermann can be kept to deal with the SFs that are too big for Arron.
On a sports talk show here in LA, someone mentioned that it’s Elton Brand and not Corey Maggette that’s expected to be gone next year. That he wants out.
They were speculating that the Lakers should go after him because Brand is involved in producing films and would want to stay in LA.
Could Michigan’s new cash incentives for film productions draw Brand to Detroit? I can dream, can’t I?
James Posey anyone?
Thoughts:
Tay for Josh Howard - guys, come on, Howard is clearly superior to Prince. I really like this trade. Howard’s PER the last three years is 19.4, 20.0, 18.4. Prince’s is 14.9, 16.0, 15.7. I know some people don’t like PER. And I also know that it underrates on the ball defense (see Bowen, Bruce), which is a Tay strong suit.
But 1. Howard’s PER isn’t a little higher than Tay’s — it’s much higher. 2. I don’t actually think Tay defends our core competition in the East that well. Tay is an excellent defender for McGrady/Kobe, as he can stay back, not foul, and force jump shots. And unlike most defenders, Tay can still bother these jumpers with his length. But Wade is too quick and Lebron/Pierce are too big. Remember when Prince destroyed Kobe in 2004 and we won the series as a result? Or remember the 2003 Orlando series? You can’t cite too many playoff games against Cle, Mia, and Bos the past few years where we’ve won b/c Tay made someone shoot 30%. I think matchups have a lot to do with it. 3. Unlike Prince, Howard is strong enough to handle Pierce, who is the best wing player on our most important competitor.
Biedrins - now way are we getting him for the MLE. It would be a no-brainer though.
Marion - the amount of money he will want in a long-term deal will be very high. We’re not getting him for anything even near 10MM.
J.R. Smith — if he’s cheap and Joe is ok with his character, this seems like a great deal from a strict performance perspective.
@Forty:
“Unlike Prince, Howard is strong enough to handle Pierce”
You sure? Prince has height, weight and length on Howard. Against Howard, Pierce shot 42% in the regular season. Against Prince, Pierce shot 37% in the regular season.
(I would have included last season to expand the sample, but Pierce only played 1/4 games against Detroit due to injury.)
Prince does have 2 inches. I’m stunned espn has him with 5lbs (which isn’t a lot, but still shocked howard doesn’t weigh more). I’m not so concerned about length in this particular matchup — the problem is pierce’s strength, not height.
Regardless, I think howard would destroy prince in the weight room. So yes, I do think he’s stronger. I think howard’s strength advantage is part of why he outrebounds tay.
Not prepared to read much into fg pct against comparison, given howard played pierce twice…
“Regardless, I think howard would destroy prince in the weight room. So yes, I do think he’s stronger.”
Do you have any stats/data to show that, or is this just an assumption?
All the statistics show that Howard is not a better defender than Tayshaun. You’ve got assumptions, assumptions about strength and assumptions about how that effects defense.
On offense, Howard is a better player, but not enough to make a significant improvement over our team as it is. Making a trade for such a negligible potential of improvement carries the risk of shaking up one of the better parts of our team’s identity. Additionally, such a move would not improve the biggest problem we’ve had in the last two seasons: defending James and Pierce.
I should note that I’d be okay with it if Joe moved Tay, I just don’t think Josh Howard should be a top target here. He’s a great player, but that move is not going to get us a championship.
i saw j.r.smith at a summer league game back when he was drafted by the hornets. we had to leave at the half, but by the time we left, smith already had about 25 points, all 3 pointers and dunks. i was absolutely sold on his talent then and there. however, his personality is VERY ricky davis. maybe if he had a strong veteran core arorund him that wouldn’t put up his shenanigans, he’d step into line. but i wouldn’t spend a lot of money on that risk. i don’t think melo and iverson and kmart and camby are guys you would call “locker room leaders,” so maybe under the right supervision, he could become a solid teammate, etc.
So we’re looking at guys who can be had for cheap…and AK-47 could be gotten for cheap…
It’s just too bad that the Pistons don’t like defensive minded players who don’t worry about the box score. Seriously, I know his contract is insane, but at this point he would cost so little to acquire…
Kirilenko would push the Pistons well into luxury tax territory. He’ll make an average of 16.4 million over the next three years. Defensively, he is a step above Sheed, but a poorer rebounder. I think it’s a wash if you swap the two.
sawyer none of these trade makes sense……none of these are all star or superstar, maybe shawn marion, but we won’t know if he fits in pistons system.
Mike: all I can think to do for stats on strength would be bench reps from the combine. Regardless, do you really have trouble believing howard is stronger than prince? I think it’s reasonable to use visible muscular definition as a proxy for how strong someone is: hence “lebron is a beast” not “lebron can bench 237lbs x times in y minutes, which is z percent higher than the average for his position.”
As for my second assumption - that strength makes you a better defender…again, is that really that troublesome? This seems fairly self-evident to me…maxiell is effective in part because he is strong. James posey did a good job on lebron…again, seems like the fact he’s a pretty solid, muscular guy would play a role in it.
“All the stats say tay is better on defense” - I’m not sure to which stats you refer. I don’t know about you, but I’ve always found individual defensive stats somewhat clunky…steals and blocks only get you so far. And defensive fg pct against pierce is also not great due to sample size issues.
I don’t for one minute dispute that tay is a terrific defender and in general superior at d to howard. But I would submit that the burden of proof that howard would or would not be a better matchup on pierce lies no more with me than with you. Just as I’m using imprecise, non-statistically based arguments (I think his strength would help him…), so too are you simply concluding prince would be better. I think it’s always going to be subjective…most defensive scouting questions are.
I’d quibble that howard is more than a slight upgrade over prince in other areas. His per is materially higher. And I think that your statement that he wouldn’t “significantly improve our offense” is exactly the sort of assumption you accuse me of making (although I’d argue “stronger players are, all other things equal, better defenders” is less problematic an assumption).
Agree that it’s a decent-sized risk, and I respect your opinion that it’s not worth taking.
“that strength makes you a better defender”
After looking back at my earlier response, I think I did a poor job explaining what I meant. There is no question strength helps defense, just look at Ben Wallace. I meant that assuming Howard’s strength gives him an edge over Prince, that’s something we can’t quantify very easily (and yes, the def FG% is a crummy stat)
For defense, I look at the following season stats: net points (points scored vs. points allowed) when on the court, effective FG% allowed, free throws made by opponent, turnovers on D, etc. I get all of these from 82games.com.
“I’d quibble that howard is more than a slight upgrade over prince in other areas.”
His offensive numbers are higher, he put up a full six more ppg. If I do make an assumption here, it is due to the team identity in dallas. Pre-Kidd, Dallas has a big three for scoring: Howard, Nowitzki and Terry. Devin Harris was really not much of a scorer, and Dampier is a muppet. Avery Johnson focused the offense between those three players. Because Detroit has five potential offensive weapons, Howard would not get as many touches per game.
Howard had 16.4 attempts per game to Prince’s 11.5. In Dallas’s roster, that works. In Detroit, it doesn’t. Curry may change things a little bit, but we won’t give that many attempts to the SF position if the other four starters stay the same.
Mike, all fair points. One question: do you think those d stats are good stats? I’m not terribly familiar with them, will have to check them out. I’ve just always found stats like that to be influenced by the other players you have on the court. If we could rotate all the players around all the teams, we could really run the experiment. That said, just cuz it’s hard to get good defensive stats doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying…
@Forty:
Well, some don’t really tell you too much, like “free throws made by opponent”, unless you’re looking at a player like Amir whose playtime was justified by Flip as “foul problems”. Honestly, its pretty easy to use stats to make a variety of cases, but I just make a judgement based on overall player stats. So when I say that “Josh Howard is not a better defender than Prince”, the stats show that Prince is not a markedly better defender than Howard.
Truth be told, I have always like Josh Howard, I think he is a stellar player and one of my favorite SFs. I don’t include players like Lebron in that category, they’re in a league of their own. But for sleeper SFs, I like Howard, Prince and Deng. Of course, there are a few others.
I suppose I might be a little hard-assed about my ambivalence toward Howard. I think it just goes back to what I mentioned above, that if we trade a member of our core, I want it to be for a player that can get us a championship. A guy like Marion– he brings a skill set that could put us over the edge, just like Rasheed did so many seasons ago. But at the same time, I’m happy keeping our core as it is, but finding solutions for our C and SF issues on the draft and free agency. We’ll likely need more than that, but who knows– Curry could bring the emotional boost we need to spark a golden era of Pistons dominance.
You know what the best part of disagreeing is, Forty? We’re all fighting for a better Pistons team, collectively. And while this decision ultimately resides with our fearless leader Joe, we can all openly discuss who WE think is best for our team, and we can do so with brilliant Pistons fans such as yourself.
My feeling with Josh Howard remains– I personally don’t feel that he could be the player that pushes us to the top. A player like Marion could, a player like Biedrins might. We shall see. But until then, I’m gonna pour a little of my Friday night beer for Dr. Dumars.
1. Sign Ariza - Not very likely to happen. The Lakers off and on court management; i.e. Kobe like his game too much.
2. Sign Biedrins with the MLE - I think that G.S. wants to keep him and will offer him more than the MLE
3. Trade Prince for Howard - This would be very interesting. The salaries and ages are about dead even so the trade could be a straight one for one deal. Cuban is looking to move Howard. I actually like this trade except with Howard’s history of smoking herbal medicine and according to him maybe actually playing on it I don’t know that Joe D. would be so fast to trade a consummate professional like Tay for Howard. It would be too easy for that deal to go up in smoke. LOL
4. Sign J.R. The guy can ball when he puts his mind to it. The question with him always is, is where is his mind during a game. I don’t think that Curry wants this type of player on his team.
5. Sheed for Marion - Marion makes too much money $17 million plus for what he brings on the court and in the locker room. I can’t see Joe D. and Mr. D. paying someone like Marion $17 million.
One of the ways that the Pistons have continued to stay near the top of league each year in performance is by spending their money wisely. Marion like Randolph, Anthony and T-Mac all of whom make more than anyone we currently have on our roster would not be a wise expenditures of Mr. Davidson’s money. It would amaze me just on that reason alone if the Pistons went after any of those players.
The problem other than each of them having some on and off court deficiencies in their games is that we have no mid-level salary players that we can deal away. After our core 4 Dyess is next at $6+ million and then Amir at $3+ million. I doubt that either of those will be traded for different reasons. So salary wise we can’t trade for a lot of these guys because we have no way to give as much salary as we take on.
The only way I think that Joe D. would do that kind of deal is that we would have to give up two starters and get some young stud who who is playing really well but whose salary is still low because they are still in their rookie contract. Usually teams do not give up those kind of players for aging veterans.
Ariza exercises option to stay with Lakers
Jun 20, 8:04 pm EDT
EL SEGUNDO, Calif. (AP)—Forward Trevor Ariza, acquired in a November trade with Orlando, has exercised his player contract option to remain with the Los Angeles Lakers.
He appeared in 24 games for the Lakers before breaking a bone in his right foot on Jan. 20. He missed the rest of the regular season and 11 playoff games before returning for Game 2 of the Western Conference finals.
Ariza averaged 18 minutes a game in the regular season before being hurt, with averages of 6.5 points, 3.5 rebounds, 1.5 assists and 1.08 steals. After he came back in the postseason, he set career playoff highs with six points and five rebounds in Game 4 of the NBA finals.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Ap5u2Cwp5V4Qm9DNdZG6i6W8vLYF?slug=ap-lakers-ariza&prov=ap&type=lgns
josh howard is a pot head are you crazy and he doesn’t play defence tay does!! the pistons don’t need change. billups was hurt and rip got hurt in game 5 the backcourt was hurt you can’t win when your best players are hurt!! the pistons needed a new coach for a long time! flip never lived in michigan no roots he never moved his family to michigan never was a part of the pistons family or the community! even larry brown move his family to michigan the pistons shouldn’t have allowed that to happen! if you guys want trades remember defence wins championships and tayshun is the best defensive player on the team! josh howard is just more trouble for the pistons and the community of michigan and children!
YOU GUYS ARE CRAZY CARMELO ANTHONY AND J.R. SMITH ARE THUGS BAD PEOPLE YOU GUYS WANT THE BAD BOYS BACK REAL BAD! WHY DON’T YOU TRADE FOR SOME PRISON PLAYER!!I’M BLACK AND I DON’T WANT MY SON TO ROOT FOR A TEAM THAT HAS BAD PEOPLE ON IT!!!!! THE PISTONS HAVE PLAYERS WITH GOOD KARMA ON THERE TEAM RIGHT NOW PEOPLE WHO STAY OUT OF TROUBLE AND THATS HOW I LIKE! I WANT TO TEACH MY SON TO DO IT THE RIGHT WAY NOT USE POT LIKE HOWARD ANTHONY AND J.R. SMITH! AND MAKE MILLIONS DOING IT! IT SENDS A BAD MESSAGE TO THE WORLD! AND KIDS! THE PISTONS NEVER HAD PLAYER LIKE THAT ON THERE TEAM AT ANY TIME IN THE 50 YEARS THAT I HAVE ROOTED FOR THEM!
@Fred, man– I was hoping you finally fixed your Caps Lock for a second there…
Rumor: Billups + Prince for Melo? Denver says no:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080622/SPORTS03/806220671/1048/sports
I also say no.
Like I said, J.R. Smith can really ball when his head is in the right place.
Would he be good for the Pistons.
I wouldn’t be in favor of him playing for us, but that does not negate the fact that when his head on straight he is one heck of a baller.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV4QLK0HnOc <— 1995, David Stern on Key Arena, referees.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRp17FCifjc <—- Tim Donaghy Moment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xiGz9wGUqI <— “not fair” . . . to ask the NBA? Really, what is this commissioner doing for the league besides digging it Grand-Canyon-sized grave?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWgQH_T2SvY <— Best Faux Ad Ever. Right on the money.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSaNEZKeyU0 <—- 05 Finals. If not proof of a rigged sport, then clearly proof of rampant incompetence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDBSYBW40I0 <— remember, don’t be such an American. While being one, and getting geography incorrect, and being the commissioner of a professional sports league.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAy7XcGn2U4 <— “Bennett Sucks”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0zm1jZjT6s the NBA, while Stern acts guilty.
It hurts to love basketball and have to put up with the NBA. All of the champions during David’s era may need the asterisk.
Everyone needs to relax about Josh Howard’s extracurricular activities… COUNTLESS incredible basketball players have smoked A LOT of weed throughout their entire careers, Howard was just dumb enough to admit it on the radio.
I would be willing to bet all of my possessions that Rasheed Wallace and Chauncey Billups blaze together during the off season… Sheed was a notorious pothead in Portland and nothing has changed.
Just because some people are too naive to realize that it pervades basketball culture does not mean that Howard wouldn’t be an awesome offensive addition to the team, despite the fact that we would lose Prince’s defense.
@fred
never heard of rasheed “the weed” wallace?
btw: is joe d crazy even considering trading for ANY Enver nugget?
What everyone is seemly forgetting is what defense is. Its just trying your ass off and your coach telling you what to do in certain situations. If we get Melo, Curry will be on his ass to play D and Melo is certainly quick enough, strong enough and tall enough to defend. The nuggets didn’t want to play defense and the coach allowed it.
Plus last season wasn’t Pierce known as a lousy defender?
At least Rasheed keeps a low profile and Carmello drives around drinking and pot in his car, also speeding.
So being discreet has it’s advantages not to mention Mello saying don’t snitch in a music video, so there is a certain mentality that also comes along with these players as well.
J.r. is going on trail for assault, and suspended, so don’t try to sugar coat the issue, take it for what it is and read between the lines so to speak….who’s zoomin who here?
Besides Mr. D doesn’t want players such as these on his team anyway.
Ever heard of class………….
Let go of the past “Bad Boys” Bill Laimbeer and Company…..That era is over.
“Bad Boys” back then it’s a complete different definition…time to move on and get over and on with it.
@Rockoba
Hey….please don’t confuse wisdom w/ naivity brother…come on give me a break.
Wait, is Bill Laimbeer being equated with JR Smith and Carmelo Anthony?
SI.com is reporting that the Pistons are interested in Josh Smith. Like I said a few months back, I think Josh Smith is a Tayshaun upgrade.
I loved what Tay gave us in the first 2 rounds but damn.. can’t see him keep getting so played and so out hearted in playoff series. He looked scared to shoot down the stretch.
After that, I think that’s all we need. I like our youth. we don’t need new parts just gotta use what we have. Stuck more less billups, more Affalo, less Rip at the 2 and less Jarvis, Rip can play some 3. More Walter. Start Max. Let Amir get more burn for Rasheed.
A frontline that rotates Dyess, Josh Smith, Sheed, Max, Amir, and Walter.. I like that.
jesus…
Latest rumor (which I fully support):
fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/55014
I like the idea of chasing after Josh Smith. He doesn’t have much of a perimeter game, but he plays above the rim and he is an excellent shot blocker. Let me throw out a trade I’d make in a heartbeat (I don’t know if the numbers work):
Atlanta receives:
Chauncey Billups
Tayshaun Prince
#29 overall pick
Detroit receives:
Acie Law IV
Josh Smith (newly re-signed)
scraps to make it work, possibly an expiring deal
It gives Detroit an injection of youth into their rotation. It maintains their height advantage on the front line.
Atlanta gets the PG they needed at the trade deadline, and it gets Tayshaun Prince and a #1 that they are lacking (that Detroit doesn’t really need).
Smith is a high flyer.. I’d do this trade in a heartbeat. Atlanta would only do it if backed into a corner, and Smith is going to want the cash to re-sign and he deserves it.
Last week I was on here talking about the Pistons should go after Josh Smith from ATL and a good amount of people from that area gave me their assurance that ATL would never let him go. Well listening to 97.1 today and low a behold Josh Smith is a name that is coming up now and he is someone we would look into getting. SO HAH!
well la di freakin da Ronnie DeLaura
perhaps the Atlanta Hawks should hire you!
@Boney - What about Bibby? Seems to me that they’d be stuck with too many high priced veteran point guards going after Billups.
I think that we get Smith. Dumars has a long time very good relationship (Pat Sullivan and Woody) with the Hawks and Rick Sund.
Joe D. will put together the right package for him.
@ Shinons
Bibby is an expiring contract at the end of the season! Excellent trade bait..
also, it’s a reach for the Hawks to give up both Law and Smith considering that in the next 4-5 years they’d possibly be in total rebuilding mode but… I can offer up halfassed trades like the rest of us.
Acquiring Acie and Josh puts our average age back in the “window is wide open” category.
please, please pull this off Joe.
please, please pull this off Joe.>>
Amen
oooh Salim Stoudamire… we can have our own version of Eddie House if we get him too!!!
If this went through for the Hawks they’d look like this:
Billups/Bibby/Claxton
Johnson/Bibby
Prince/Childress
Williams
Horford/Pachulia
If they use #29 to add one of those big men going around that spot, and they’ll be looking pretty darn good. That’s a trade I could see ATL making.
Maybe it’s because I’m bitter that he never ended up coming to IU, but I’m biased against Smith. I see him as a more selfish version of AK-47 and think we could get the Russian version for a lot less. But then again, I’m admittedly bitter.
I think we’d see a 3 guard rotation of Billups/Bibby, Johnson/Billups more than Bibby running the 2.
The problem is, they need a 4 if we pick up Smith. Perhaps if Marvin was available too, we could ship Maxey? That’s not a trade I want to see happen, but if Williams is added I’d throw in Maxey to make it work if it’s possible.
Stuck
Rip
Smith
Sheed
FA pickup
Law IV
Afflalo
Amir
Maxey
Herrmann/Hayes if we re-sign either
Samb
Dice
Bench gets weaker when Stuckey is in the starting 5, but we do get considerably younger by adding the high school kid Smith and Law IV if the Hawks did it
jesus… I’m going to have a wet dream the night that deal is made, especially if Joe D. comes down that same night and says that Sheed is still the starting center and Amir is the starting PF.
Could you imagine the highlight reels next year? Smith, Stuckey and Amir? It’d be like alley oop city!
we would need another ball handler too… perhaps taking back Claxton would be something we’d have to decide on… or Stoudamire, but I don’t want him dribbling the ball at all.
OR if they threw Bibby back at us, I’d take it… then we’ll knock off Sheed and Bibby’s salary next season!
omg, my pants are getting tighter!
Maybe I’m on my own here, but I don’t see us getting any better with a trade like this. Might be fun to watch, but not any better. We’d be paying an awful lot for Smith. Why buy high? Why not go after Gerald Wallace, who would give us the exact same sort of game for a ton less?
Shinons, I’m trying to be less argumentative on DBB, but seriously, Gerald Wallace is not the player Josh Smith is. Smith is a defensive powerhouse, nearly a 20/10 player. Josh Smith will be an all star for years to come, with a defensive energy and in-the-paint dominance that is tough to come by.
Gerald Wallace is a great player, one of the most underrated. But he’s played more than 70 games in a season ONCE in his seven year career, averaging 65 games since he’s been a starter. He’s injury prone, something which doesn’t fly in Detroit. He’s not the defender that Smith is, and when facing James and Pierce, the gatekeepers to the NBA finals, we need a player like Smith in their face.
I think that’s a terrible deal. I like Josh Smith, but he fell substantially short of expectations this year. His output is comparable to Josh Howard’s, and most people here balked at trading Prince alone for him.
Maybe I’m alone in recognizing how valuable Chauncey is, but that trade would make Atlanta a contender, and would put us at the fringe of a playoff birth.
Other than the injury problems, the comparison between Wallace and Smith is apt.
Also, Smith is a 17-8 guy, not a 20-10 guy.
Hoops Hype profiles:
An athletic freak… One of the best dunkers in the league… Great first step… Very good in the open court… Very energetic… Good defensive player… One of the best rebounders at his position… Ballhandling skills and outside shot still need improvement.
Very long… Extremely athletic… Awesome dunker… Runs the floor well… Plays with poise… One of the top shot blockers in the league… Decent shooter… Turnover prone… Ballhandling needs work.
Sounds the exact same. The biggest differences between the two is that Wallace is more of a perimeter guy and Smith spends more time in the paint and Smith has more attitude problems. Both guys are elite playmakers on defense, Smith just has more bulk to go after James with - but Wallace makes up for it in hustle. I don’t mind being disagreed with, Smith is definitely the hot commodity right now and is the more talented guy. But like you said, Wallace is underrated. I’d prefer to take the guy who’s undervalued to the one who’s stock is at its highest. All of the more even trades for guys coming off career years on here never sound too appealing to me.
kevin s: I think 17 and 8 qualifies as “nearly 20 and 10″ as MP originally stated. Hardin for president.
of course you would think that’s a terrible deal kevin s. Because it doesn’t fall right in line with your John Hollinger reach around handbook, you “just can’t see it”. Atlanta may become a contender because of it, but we also have pieces remaining to deal.
I personally would rid ourselves of Chauncey’s contract and offer them the golden nugget of Prince for a guy who is considerably better offensively and defensively than Prince. I said, I highly doubt Atlanta would do the deal because I wanted Law in return. If it’s Claxton and Smith for Tay and CB? No f-ing way. Law is a big PG who can learn the system, and paired along with Stuckey could make Rip expendable as well, eventually.
Gerald Wallace is older and more brittle than Josh Smith, Shinons.
Pass on Wallace. The reason the guy does not play on the perimeter is because he has absolutely no range.
kevin s.,
17 and 8 = 20 and 10 “per 48 minutes”
I like both Wallace and Smith, but my money’s on Smith. Younger, bigger, better rebounder, and almost led the league in blocks last season. Smith can also match up with some PF’s. I think both are what we need in terms of energy and effort, but Wallace is signed for 6 years (last is optional) for 57, plus bonuses that could be an extra 2 mil per. I’ve heard that Smith is asking for 11 a year, but I’d rather have Joe work out that contract then get the one Wallace signed from Bickerstaff.
Not that this has anything do with the subject, but this is too good not to share:
http://www.tmz.com/2008/06/23/shaq-attacks-kobe-you-ruined-my-marriage/
“Hey Kobe, tell me how my ass tastes.” - Big Shaq
I wonder if he would’ve rapped the same shit if the Lakers had won? Still, priceless, lb. And they get to face off at least 4 times next season. Awesome.
I don’t think Joe D. trades within the conference unless it’s a barn burner. Like he said in his press conference a couple weeks back, I’m talking to GM’s about their #1 or #2 guys and I don’t see (at this point) J. Smith being a #1 or #2 guy, even on Atlanta. Joe J is first followed by Horford. I think he’s got tremendous “upside.” As for Law, I don’t think he was doing all that much before Bibby got there and I understand them not wanting a rook for their playoff push, but I don’t recall hearing or seeing alot about Law given where he was taken in last years’s draft.
Yes, we do become younger and our window opens up a bit but I think CB & Tay is too much to give for Smith & Law.
@Kevin S.:
“Also, Smith is a 17-8 guy, not a 20-10 guy.”
no shit. “nearly a 20/10 player”
Then Gerald Wallace is nearly a 20-10 guy, and so is Billups for that matter.
I don’t know what this has to do with Hollinger. You are talking about trading the 1st and 4th best players on a 59 win team for the best player on a 37 win team and a point guard who couldn’t even factor into a 37 win season.
If we sign him to a large contract, we won’t win a championship for the duration of that contract. What is the upside here?
Ok Boney, let me throw my two cents in here. Residing in Atlanta I watch about 45-50 Hawks games a year. I would think you are inquiring about AC Law based on his college resume. I liked him coming out last year. But he has been a bust for the Hawks. They were pretty disappointed with him this year. Josh Smith, ok here’s the deal. With Josh you either get 1 of 2 things: either a highly play or a completely bone headed play. As far as basketball IQ he is the ani-Tay. He drives Mike Woodson and Hawks fans batty with his inconsistency. You would not be winning a championship this year with Smith. Plus, the word is he’s going to want big money to sign this summer. So let me get this right, you guys are willing to give us Billups + Prince + 29th pick and in essence all you are getting is Josh Smith. You would rather do this and get Josh Smith, AC Law is garbage fella, instead of Carmelo Anthony? So can I deductively reason that this means you think Smith is better than Carmelo? Because in essence you are giving up more by adding the 29th pick to get Smith. Wow. I can’t believe what I’m reading. Josh Smith is a true freak of nature but with his extremely low basketball IQ, I’m not a huge fan. I don’t think you become a championship player by only depending on your athleticism and not having a good savvy for the game. Championships are won by heart, athletic ability and brains. Josh Smith is missing the basketball brains. He makes a ton of bone headed plays guys. His highlight plays don’t make up for all of them. With him you never know what you’re going to get.
Josh Smith will be a top 5 player in the NBA within 36 months. He is no joke
@kevin s.:
“Then Gerald Wallace is nearly a 20-10 guy, and so is Billups for that matter.”
Awesome, semantics– always fun. *pats you on the back*
If Josh Smith was playing Gerald Wallace minutes, he would be a 20-10 guy.
Josh Smith is very likely to hit 20-10 in his career. Gerald Wallace never will, neither will Chauncey (although Chauncey NEARLY did). Hence my saying “nearly”.
——————–
@everyone else:
I’d love to have Smith on our team. Love love love it. However, how can we possibly make the salaries work.? Billups and Prince combine for $21,000,000+. If Smith gets the $11,000,000 he wants, how could Atlanta possibly make up the rest of that salary?
If they add Zaza Pachulia and Marvin Williams or Speedy Claxton, the money might work. But would Joe really accept that?
With Johnson and Bibby in the back court, would Atlanta really bench one of their $15,000,000 players so Chauncey could start? (of course they would, but that would be a very expensive benchwarmer)
Tayshaun and Maxiell would work. Would Atlanta go for that? Maxiell’s a free agent after 08-09… Atlanta could throw in Solomon jones to have another contract to add.
So you Atlanta folks, E-Double and others… do you think Atlanta would possibly accept Tayshaun Prince and Jason Maxiell for Josh Smith?
i’m a ditto on josh smith. i remember reading someone talk about how josh smith has been slowed by not having a solid veteran presence to take his lead from. and that if he had a guy like sheed or dyess around showing him the tricks of the trade, he’d probably be an allstar already. josh smith is the player we all want amir to become.
Hell yes, JackDutch. Sheed and Dyess would give Smith better guidance than anyone else in the league. However, I would prefer that someone follow Sheed around with a bullhorn and push the blast button whenever Rasheed tells Smith about the wonders of the three ball.
No three pointers for you, Josh. Not yours.
Can you imagine Rasheed at the 5, Amir at the 4 and Smith at the 3? Could the competing team put up a single shot without it getting blocked? Shiiiiiiit.
I also have lived in ATL the last 3 years, and particularly watched Josh Smith this year. I agree a lot with E Double–he is a freak of nature who makes a lot of stupid plays. However, I am at least a bit intrigued by what he would do if surrounded by a couple of our playoff veterans.
Smith definitely increases in value by leaving the inexperienced Hawks for the savvy Pistons–I just don’t know if its enough of an increase to give up Tayshaun for–I’d much rather get a proven commodity like Melo if I’m giving up the all around game of Tay.
E-Double - considering that Denver has officially taken Carmelo off the table, then yes I’d rather make a deal for a guy who I could actually acquire.
Tay and Max for Josh Smith is much better, and is actually much more realistic than CB and Tay.
Tay’s all around game? We’re talking about dealing a guy who averages what 1 bpg for a guy who averages nearly 3 (or more than 3 if you’re looking at the stats through kevin s.’s glasses).
Rip or Tay has to go. They cannot coexist within an offensive set for the Pistons. I seriously think cancelling out a deal because of some bone headed plays is dumb. The kid is a kid. He’s the same age as LB’s wet dream DeVon Hardin and look at how many light years ahead of him Smith is.
“Tay’s all around game? We’re talking about dealing a guy who averages what 1 bpg for a guy who averages nearly 3 (or more than 3 if you’re looking at the stats through kevin s.’s glasses).”
Huh? I’m not sure where this comes from, though some here would go ahead and round up to 5.
BPG and SPG are not the only measurements of defensive ability. Prince uses his length to keep players at bay without giving up open jumpers. Tay is universally regarded as one of the best defenders in basketball, and Chauncey is above average for his position. So I’m not sure how we somehow get better defensively from this trade.
We might as well round Billups’ fg% up to 52% since we’re factoring in “per 48 minute” numbers…
why trade Billups ever if he’s putting up 22 points and 11 assists per 48 minutes???
“though some here would go ahead and round up to 5″
You’re a sneaky lil devil. rounding up != drawing data-driven conclusions about an easily achievable performance increase.
Aw, Boney got his feelings hurt because Blaha said Rip’s not going anywhere. Hardin for President.
TITLE: For The Future, For The Defense
Although, some trade talks have leaked through the cracks, most of them are pretty much junk. Heres one I feel could be completely legitimate, although there is no basis or numbers until a sign and trade talk even starts… Joe D, if u have a way of reading this please consider!
Josh Smith ATL SF/PF Via Sign and Trade
Josh Childress ATL G Via Sign and Trade
Zaza Pachulia ATL C
for
2 of the following 3
Chauncey Billups DET PG
Tayshaun Prince DET SF
Rasheed Wallace DET C/PF
and possibly DET 1st RD PICK (read on)
Dont get me wrong, a lot would have to happen for this to be legitimate idea. Atlanta has already said they really dont want to pay what Josh Smith what he is going to be asking which will be approximatley 11 maybe 12 million. Childress will be in about the same situation probaly asking for 7 or 8 million. Zaza Pachulia is scheduled to make 4 million. For a grand total of approx. 23 million.
When Taking two out of three between Billups, Prince, and Sheed they will be flirting with that 23 million number. Although, if Prince is included we may have to toss in Dixon to make the deal go through. The 1st rd pick is questionable, but maybe be enough to get the deal over the top considering ATL does not have A 1st rd pick…and the value may be less than the youth aquired in this deal.
Salary: Billups(10 mill), Prince(9 mill), Sheed(12.5(Exp Contract))
PROS: From the Hawks perspective they had a nice run last season taking the Celts 7, even though I would blame Boston’s cluelessness during that series. Taking sheed could create cap room next season if they chose not to resign him at a more reasonable number. He also could help mold Horford into the guy in ATL. Chauncey would give them a true point guard, I seriously question Bibby’s leadership and decision making these days. Prince would help fill the void Josh Smith left when leaving through his defense, floor leadership, and versatility. Any of these three could help them.
PROS: From Detroits side, we would recieve one of the most athletic players in basketball at an age to build our whole defense around for 8 years. Detroit fans will salivate at having Josh Smith and Amir on the court at the same time and possibly starting together. Childress will be a great 3rd or 4th guard with his size and savvy. After watching Pachulia and Garnett going at it in the playoffs, and our need for a true 7 footer, he would be a great add in assuming ATL is willing to part with him. I truly believe this to be a possible solution to our recent playoff woes…the infusion of more athletic, defensive youth to an already well oiled machine could be ridiculous. Heres our lineup if they choose Billups, Prince, Dixon, and RD 1 Pick….which i think they would.
PG- STUCKEY, CHILDRESS
SG- HAMILTON, CHILDRESS, AFFLALO
SF- JOSH SMITH, HAYES
PF- AMIR, MCDYESS, MAXIELL
C- SHEED, PACHULIA, MCDYESS, SAMB
Although, they may want Sheed instead of Prince, that would solidify the middle of our lineup and Tay could be devastating off the bench. I assume we would keep our 1st rd pick then, and use it for a developmental center.
Thats what I think…………………..
Please comment….
Yes, Tayshaun’s all around game.
As in, he has more than JSmith’s one offensive move of dunk. As in, he can give problems to a variety of defenders. As in, he can give problems to a variety of offensive players he guards.
A guy who was voted to the all defensive second team four straight years who can post you up, shoot the three, and run in transition surely qualifies as a guy with all around game by my calculation.
GUYS, HOW ARE U DRAWING CONCLUSIONS ON PER 48 MIN STATS……..
assuming this, AMIR LED THE LEAGUE IN BLOCKS WITH LIKE 8, thats not exactly….48 min is the whole game, we are looking for a deep rotation with a lot of bench contribution…and low min.
I would hate to lose prince most out of every piston right now with everything he does, but someone needs to become a more prominant scorer to play with Rip. I am still under the impression Amir will be that guy so I would love to keep prince, otherwise he may need to become a tad more aggressive. He may finally get an all star appearance to go along with his Cham Ring and possible Olympic gold…not that all star appearances mean anything. I think he deserves it though, just to promote playing basketball the right way
LB - George Blaha knows as much about the team’s moves as you do. Hopefully he wasn’t taking notes during your “What Dumars should do” post.
My feelings don’t get hurt about dealing or not dealing a Piston player. If they don’t win the title ever again, my joy in being a fan of the team will still involve guys like you and kevin s. justifying why we should never make a trade ever, OR, when we make trades it’ll be based off of “because John Hollinger has rated him high” or “well, just because Hollinger rated him low doesn’t mean shit”.
Yeah, I don’t know what I’m talking about.
DetUMICH,
I’m sorry, but after reading all the negative things that kevin s. and LB have had to say about Tayshaun Prince’s offensive game, I was beginning to forget that the man actually plays on the offensive end of the court.
You have reminded me that Tayshaun does have an offensive game to go with his defensive ability!
Trade Rip and future 1st round picks for Josh Smith!
Start Tay at the 2!
Anthony Boggs,
Don’t you know that everything in sports is based on some statistic that tells us that a basketball player’s PER and “per 36 minute” are the most important things to look at when it comes to comparing their performance to others???
Jesus… let’s trade the house for Brent Barry! The best shooting guard in the NBA!
Boney,
I completely agree with u, thats why i want amirs minutes to see a significant increase. It is completely important when the right conclusions are drawn, and factoring in what those numbers cant show such as attitude, defensive prowess that isnt always shown by number in the PER, but as an individual opponents FG%. Also, the dimensions within a team become relavant since our guys cant get up as many shot attempts as they would for another team. Im just saying there are plenty of other factors that are just as important as these stats when comparing players…they dont have a stat for the playoff experience our guys have and there ring. Teams would under value our guys according to numbers only
oh, and the commitment to a team atmosphere makes our guys more valuable….and not to mention teams on the uprise or in rebuilding mode value expiring contracts and teams value a guys initial contract as well. These do not have a stat when comparing players either. Numbers tell part of the story, an individuals character tells the rest
I’m not saying that stats are irrelevant, but if Billups is playing 33 minutes per night on average, then what is the importance of factoring in the “well, he was scoring 17 while playing 33 minutes, so at a 36 minute pace he’ll score 20″ argument?
You know what our guys are going to give you, night and night out. Sure, they’ll play at slightly higher levels with more minutes, but our bench is not going to be as productive.
With Billups you’re going to get anywhere between 15 - 22 points per night, with 3 - 9 assists. If the offense is moving exceptionally well then bump up the assist total by 1 or 2. But as we see from game 1 and 2 to game 3 of the ECF, this whole bullshit “per 36 minute” argument is moot. All of us know that Game 3s are the Pistons’ kryptonite, for whatever reason. You don’t have to be a butt buddy of John Hollinger’s algebra equations to figure it out.
For whatever reason, 2 nights out of the week the Pistons were not sharp under Flip. Magnify that during the playoffs to 3 nights a week, and there’s your elimination from the playoffs the last 4 years. We win games at a high percentage, but the games we lose we look like absolute dog shit.
…and i dont know who this kevin sawyer guy is who wrote on the front page that by any assesment josh howard is better than Tay.
That is fairly ridiculous when looking at Dallas’ first rd playoff woes the past two seasons, and the terrible part Howard played in those losses….i thought we were trying to get over the up, not back under it! His lack of defense alone makes us worse next season….and didnt Tay make the Olympics and not Howard, that should explain everything
Not once have I mentioned positive or negative traits of Tayshaun Prince in this thread, but thanks for vilifying me Boney. I think you were looking for my friend, Mike Payne. You know, the guy who respectfully offers his opinions with subsequent research and statistics provided to try and back it up instead of giving incessant stump speeches trumpeting his (unproven) genius. Your behavior is mildly amusing at first albeit it grows tiresome. It’s frustrating how you suddenly turn caustic from your pulpit when your inferior position (ie: Rip sucks based solely on opinion and nothing else legitimate) is competently challenged.
I’m fine with someone suggesting we trade Rip. It might be a hugely successful move should the right package come around, but I’m not fine with someone denigrating the value of Rip under false pretense or because of arbitrary dislike (ie: because his fist pump reminds you of Jordan or he went to UConn, or he doesn’t drive despite putting up 20 every night, or because he plays like Reggie Miller whom basically every Piston fan hates). Hyperbole such as that, found consistently in your repeated Rip bashings doesn’t go very far in this community and it hardly conveys an informed point of view. Despite your redundant claims to the contrary, you often do not provide anything more insightful than those who oppose your viewpoint provide. And when you are defeated, you retreat into a defensive position based wholly in sarcasm.
Boney, you are full of self-aggrandizing bile, and I, among others despise such an attitude.
yea, i know…at this point it is more than obvious we need a change and we cant have the guys we have right now playing those minutes anyways. The numbers are relavant but only objectively with other factors playing their roles. Hopefully, Curry gets them playing hard every night and a trade that provides us with youth could only help that cause
Lawyer Boy, bile is a fairly gross word, but it fits since it creeps into my throat when this guy argues nothing in plenty of words
“kevin s. justifying why we should never make a trade ever, ”
Huh? I wrote the original post!
got it, i was scan reading……most trade equations presented have not grasped our true value….i agree
Matt, we need a new post.
LawyerBoy,
First, as I watch teams continually run around, over and through our perimeter defenders with their “superstars” who can create shots, and who beat our so called “untouchables” off the dribble 4 nights out of 7, then I can make any kind of recommendation that I would like.
Secondly, I don’t get defensive or lash out at you or anyone else when you don’t agree, respectfully. I come back at you when you write it off, much like I’ve done lately, with sarcasm and “oh well John Hollinger says that your trade proposal is way lopsided” garbage.
I don’t care that Rip went to UConn, nor do I care that he played with Jordan. You believe his style is like Reggie Miller because he runs off screens, and because everyone that interviews him says “well, a lot of people say your game is a lot like Reggie Miller’s, please explain…”. Pistons fans don’t hate Miller because Miller would kill them going 10-20 from the mid range, Piston fans hate Miller because he would come off screens… AT THE 3 POINT LINE!
On a team with 4 jump shooters, the last thing we need is another jump shooter.
I justified my argument with the simplest statistic you could ever come up with, Rip has the most value of the 5.
If that isn’t possibly the ultimate compliment for “Rip” then I don’t know what else anyone can say to make your panties not bind up at the thought of possibly trading him. Sure, he’s extremely efficient… we’ve watched the team be efficient since 2002, and Rip, Chauncey and Tay have been a part of the efficiency for the better part of those years.
So, while you continue to sit in your high chair and preach to us about how a big man from the Pac 10 who didn’t dominate a single minute of his 4 year career is somehow the answer to our problems in the middle, allow the rest of us to actually put our heads together and come up with legit trades other than to acquire drecks like Samuel Dalembert and Chris Kaman.
jesus…
It’s not like Chauncey Billups is the 2nd coming of Jordan, or that Richard Hamilton is completely untouchable.
When making trades there are winners and losers. We’re going to view any trade as a loss because of how “we” value the “talent” on this team.
I guarantee the rest of the league does not see any of our starters as anything more than 1 piece of a 2 for 1 trade for a #1 guy.
If Dumars wants a #1, a young one at that, it’s going to cost talent. As soon as well can grasp that fact, we’ll stop ending our comments with statements like “Hardin for President”
well boney i lost faith, now i have to agree…..kaman isnt the answer to shit, hes from my hometown and the only reason he did what he did last season was becuase there were bums around him! I do like dalembert though but not in a single package lawyer boy thought up
Anthony, I agree. I agree that no big man in the NBA outside of a younger Shaquille O’Neal has as much value as we all would like to believe Sheed has, but we have to be honest with ourselves once in a while. While we’re honest with ourselves we can also remember that Chris Kaman blows, Samuel Dalembert’s hands are worse than Nazr Mohammed’s, and comparing Richard Hamilton to Reggie Miller because they both ran off screens is a slap in the face to Reggie’s abilities.
But I do give you one thing LB and kevin s.,
the whole thought of “well this guy, or that guy would be better once we get him in our system” is true, so far.
Because before acquiring “Rip” from the Wiz, he was nothing more than a Larry Hughes clone. .420, .435 and .438 from the field with .274, .381, and .361 from 3. There you go… statistics to back up my earlier post about why I don’t like Richard Hamilton. I saw him play night in and night out, I think I do know what I’m talking about when I called him “Larry Hughes-esque” during my earlier post.
In Detroit he has thrived, just like Ben Wallace did, and Chauncey Billups has…
*Boney
You’ve been doing alot of ranting and raving lately that I’ve disagreed with (especially about Rip) but you’ve just made a great point. We have set ourselves up for dissapointment no matter what Joe D. does this offseason.
1) We love our current players (mostly). Which leads us to over-value way them more than any sane GM would.
2) We got visions of sugar plums in our heads when Dumars made his “big changes” proclamation. We all have so much faith in JoeD that we assume he can turn 2 of our (possibly overvalued) starters into a future HoFer in his prime.
3) We envision that whatever big move is made will result in a dramatic improvement to this team. BUT the Pistons were arguably the second best team in the league and almost any change in team chemistry could easily result in a 1-2 year re-adjustment period thats not spent on top of the mountain.
I was super excited/nervous thinking about this offseason but looking around the league I just don’t see anything that could possibly live up to my expectations. I’ve already dissapointed myself before anything has been done. What now?