Things have been slow around these parts (well, on the front page at least — the comments have been raging forward at full strength) the last few days, and that will likely continue another 24 hours or so. I moved this past weekend, and between navigating mountains of boxes and not having a reliable internet connection, it is what it is. Come draft night, though, things should be back to normal.
Can’t wait for the draft.
Good luck on the move. I’ve gotta do it next month, so I get to feel that pain again, and soon.
I hope that you didn’t have Zumaya help you with the boxes.
I never minded moving house until I joined the Army, now I HATE moving. Add two kids to the mix and its a bloody nightmare. Now its finished, I am so glad that I am finally in a set place for the next four years at least.
Best of luck Matt and I hope nothing gets broken
Bring on the draft!
Jemele Hill for President.
bdiddy n al harrington 2 d pistons 4 wallace n billups!!!–> real gm reports
That would be………..different.
Here are the potential variations of the trade I’ve seen;
Option 1: Baron/Harrington/#14 for Billups/Sheed/Maxiell
Option 2: Baron/Harrington/#14 for Billups/Sheed
Option 3: Baron/Harrington for Billups/Sheed
I’d be on board with Option 2. This would leave us no true big man, which would be a problem, but we should be able to sign Diop/Ratliff for little money and we could use the #14 on Brandon Rush. The #29 could be used on a big body as well. Davis is 29 and this is the last year of his deal, Harrington is 28 and he has one more year on his contract after this one. Rip’s contract runs out the same time as Harringtons, so we would have a lot of flexibility with trades/cap space over the next couple years if this didn’t work out.
Chad Ford’s latest draft prediction has the Pistons selecting CDR! That would be HUGE and perfect compliment to Tay! Love it.
Geez. I’m glad Joe’s working the phones and everything, but this trade would be terrible. Baron Davis is the exact problem we have in Sheed and Billups, plus a few more extra. He jacks way too many threes, plays with a switch, an injury risk, overpaid, never had any playoff success. Why would we want this guy?? Then throw in Al Harrington who’s been moved four times already because he doesn’t have a position and sulks when he doesn’t get his numbers. I mean seriously, this looks like a move that Isaiah would go for, but not Joe. This trade would not make us a better team whatsoever.
The reason Rip, Chauncey, Sheed, Ben, etc. have all fit in with our system so well is that we’ve gone after guys who fit in with it. Team players who don’t worry about their numbers, take care of the ball, and fill their role. We’ve won a title and come close to 5 other ones in the past six years under that formula. It’s a good idea to consider some changes, but not just any change.
Looking forward to see how it all plays out.
Trading for a season of Baron Davis seems like a sideways move. I doubt Joe D. is interested.
I also have to call BS on these Baron Davis rumors. I can’t believe Joe D is that desperate. No way that improves our team, no way.
This pick only makes sense if we get the 14th pick from GS and then Joe D. parlays it into another trade. We’ve got Stuck, Affalo, what would be the 14th pick and Amir. All young guys looking for time and not much (none at all) depth in the front court.
I like the idea of the 14th, 29th and Max to move up to the high lottery. Otherwise, count me out of this trade.
I like Davis but I don’t think he would help this team more than Chauncey would. Al Harrington would probably be a fish out of water on a team that plays at a slow pace and that makes him the 4th option on offense. I don’t even think Harrington would be good trade bait because everybody has figured out what his game is by now.
it does seem like a lateral move, but i’d have to know the contract situation. if we’re getting 2 expiring contracts from talented players plus a pick, it’s not the worst idea in the world.
just looked it up on hoopshype: baron davis is going to get paid 17 million PLUS next season. who, in their right mind, thinks baron davis is worth that kind of bread? but then he’s off the books for ‘09 summer. harrington is actually better. 2 years left at around tayshaun prince money (9-10 mil per), expiring contract in time for the FA windfall summer of 2010. and he’d be the post-up we’ve been looking for. add in the #14 pick, maybe it’s better than i initially thought. damn, i’m torn. i think it’s because i really hate baron davis. i don’t know if a pistons uni on him would make a difference.
one more thought: it seems like our main bargaining chip right now is that we have a proven nba-ready youngblood like stuckey ready to step in at the 1 or 2 spot. shouldn’t we be trading small for big? i guess davis would only be here a year, but still, if i’ve got 3 top shelf wide receivers and only 2 spots to play them in, isn’t it better to trade from a position of strength to help cure a position of weakness? (i’m only speaking from my experience as a multi-championship fantasy football gm….)
Please, no, Joe. We would likely go from an ECF team to a first round exit team. How does this get us to a championship?
Note to Joe:
You don’t want Isiah’s advice. Block all future calls.
The only reason that GS trade makes sense is because it would clear the salaries of Billups/Davis and Sheed/Harrington in time for the 2010 class. Rip Hamilton, Antonio McDyess, Jason Maxiell, and Amir Johnson would all also be off the books by then. By my count, that would leave us with only $16 million in committed salary for that MONSTER class. We could make a serious run at DWade or any of the other big ticket FAs. It also helps us clear up money to either extend Rip or Max or Amir.
The only reason to do this trade is the cap flexibility it provides, and even then I wouldn’t do it.
Also, the thought of CDR falling to us is exciting. He’s one of the few guys in this draft that I like. He still doesn’t exactly solve our problems as a full time back up at the 3, but he can spend some minutes there.
It’s too bad Minnesota is keeping those 2nd rounders this year, otherwise we could go CDR-Bill Walker-DJ White/DeVon Hardin and everybody would rejoice.
Trade Proposal:
Sheed/Rip for T-Mac and Luis Scola.
Previous Houston trades have included Tayshaun but Houston already has Battier. Houston might like this better and would roll out:
Alston, Rip, Battier, Sheed and Yao.
This Pistons would have a formidable backcourt/wing rotation of Chauncey, TMac, Stuckey and Prince. This would leave them with a need for a true Center and some frontcourt scoring however.
This article reads like a DBB post:
http://realgm.com/src_twoplusthefoul/219/20080624/30_teams_30_days_detroit_draft_preview/
Is that a compliment or an insult, QD?
Not a huge fan of Baron and his ‘Hollywood’ style. But when healthy he is incredible. It would help ease Stuckey into the position a bit more (as a back-up for Rip and Baron). and Harrington could be a great second unit guy… i’d prefer to start Maxiell.
Also Harrington might fit the “never achieved full potential till they became a Piston” mold.
I think it’s an ok trade option if we get the #14 pick.
Maybe Baron would be part of another off-season trade for Brand? My dream.
This Baron Davis rumor sure has brought out mixed opinions. I thought it was the most reasonable trade rumor of the off season yet many think it’s the worst. What is it about Baron Davis that brings out strong opinions? I always thought he was a very good player who played in small markets and was always injured — until he got healthy for this last run in Golden State. You may or may not like the guy but I don’t see why you would think he’s the kind of player that makes you say “NOOOOOOOOOO!”.
Funny/strange statement from the realgm.com article.
“They have had the same four-man core for the past half-decade and have only one title to show for it.”
Seems to over-simplify the past 5 seasons…. nevermind the fact that Ben Wallace and Larry Brown were the motors for the team in 2004 and 2005.
cdr at 29 is stealing. is it just me or is this draft an utter cloud of mystery from about pick #2 on? i love it. wish i could watch it unfold live instead being stuck at ^#$&&%%&^#%$^@%^@#$^@$%^@$^%&$@%&^@$ work.
The articles reporting on the Baron Davis trade reek of unsubstantiated rumors. Just like Drew Sharp’s article saying “don’t rule out Carmelo yet.” Um, why? Because your sports reporter brain thinks it makes sense? So GS is shopping Baron, and we’re looking for a trade partner - that makes it 1% likely. Other than that, there’s no real substance to the article.
And this trade sounds terrible. No way Joe D goes for it.
Finally: show me Bill Walker in the draft. Its a risk, but the upside is huge. We’re in a good position to gamble here - if he flames out, no biggie.
@JoeJoeJoe:
“I don’t see why you would think he’s the kind of player that makes you say “NOOOOOOOOOO!”.”
To Baron’s defense, he’s a good PG. I like him. But Chauncey is SO much better than Baron Davis, across the board.
Chauncey is a significantly better shooter, a better defender, a better passer, a better ball handler. And I don’t mean by small margins– I mean by serious numbers.
We would be doing Golden State a colossal favor by doing this trade. I wouldn’t even consider this trade unless it included Baron Davis, a signed-and-traded Andris Biedrins and the 14th pick. Otherwise, Joe would either be out of his mind or have some other trick up his sleeve.
uh, yeah… i enjoy discussing trade speculation. Be it a proper article or some blog post. what else you gonna do to pass time at work?
Baron Davis for
Richard Hamilton?
YES!
I like that Baron brings a bit more of an attack mentality.
MikePayne… i think you are exaggerating the difference between Billups and Davis. He’s does produce more TOs though. And his back is jacked-up.
someone mentioned earlier about the significant cap space we’d have by letting Davis and Harrington walk when it’s time…
do we really want our team to be in position to have to plug holes with free agents who have been beaten year after year by us? I mean, D Wade has already publicly admitted he hates Detroit…
Maybe it’s just more of me not knowing what I’m talking about…
JAWAI FOR GOVERNOR!
I frequently see a ton of hype about the amazing 2010 free agent class. Could somebody list all those who will become available that year?
@Aaron N:
Chauncey Billups (23.61 PER):
http://www.82games.com/0708/07DET1D.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/07DET1A.HTM
Baron Davis (19.87 PER):
http://www.82games.com/0708/07GSW1D.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/07GSW1A.HTM
Compare and contrast for yourself, you’ll see the huge disparities.
The only number that Davis has over Billups is PPG, which 82games stats don’t include. Baron played 39 minutes this season to Billups’ 32. Baron took nearly 8 more field goal attempts per game than Chauncey did, and only put up a few more PPG.
Davis is like the poorest of man’s chauncey billups, but with a MUCH bigger contract and a bad back to boot.
Even the most generous of those options leaves us worse off.
I don’t know where the idea that Davis is better than Billups comes from. Last season, Billups was the better shooter (45%-43%), a MUCH better three point shooter (40%-33%), committed fewer turnovers (2.0-2.8), and made more free throws (5.1-3.9).
Davis did score a few more points, but did so in a much faster-paced system and in substantially more minutes. Put him in Detroit’s sytem and give him 32 minutes a game, and he’d put up about 17 and 5 per game, though with fewer turnovers.
Of course, injuries are a concern as well. Over the past six seasons, Billups has played an average of 16.5 more games than Davis.
As far as Harrington vs. Wallace, Wallace is better at both ends of the floor, especially the defensive end. And if you didn’t like Wallace’s propensity to hoist threes, you’re going to hate Harrington, who takes 44% of his shots from downtown.
As far as the 14 pick goes, no analyst thinks that there is a sure-thing starter beyond the top 10-12 picks. Who is out there who is worth gutting our roster?
@Aaron N:
I just commented and included four stat links, two for baron and two for chauncey, that show the disparities I’m talking about. I think since there were so many links, it didn’t make it past Matt’s comment spam filter here on DBB.
Check the 82games.com stats for both players, you’ll see precisely what I’m talking about. I think my closing sentence in that comment was “baron davis is the poorest of man’s chauncey billups, with a much bigger contract and a bad back to boot”
No comments on my trade idea? I thought at least Boney would give me props for including Rip in one.
Harrington was forced to hoist a ton of 3s. No one is going to argue he is better than Wallace in any way though.
If Davis scores less points, he’ll probably have less TOs too.
I don’t think it’s a slam dunk for Detroit. But it’s decent value talent-wise and makes sense on several levels.
And lottery picks are always valuable in more than one way.
If we did use the pick, it would be for a bench player.
“I don’t know where the idea that Davis is better than Billups comes from.”
Who here said Davis is better than Billups?
“Davis did score a few more points”
In my link-laden comment that didn’t go through, I mentioned that those few more points came from nearly 8 more field goals per game… another knock on Davis.
No Baron in Detroit. Please.
One thing that’s not being mentioned is how low his basketball IQ is. I mean, we get pissed at Sheed for shooting too many threes (partly because he’s a big man, but still) when he shoots 4.1 per game at 35.6 percent. Baron shoots 6.4 per game at 33 percent. By my math, that’s exactly 546 percent more frustrating. I wouldn’t want this guy on our team under any circumstances.
“Chauncey is a significantly better shooter, a better defender, a better passer, a better ball handler. And I don’t mean by small margins– I mean by serious numbers.”
I have to disagree with you on this one Mike P…Chauncey is a better shooter, and Baron is more turnover prone, but I’m not sure about Chauncey being a better passer, ball handler or defender. Chauncey really struggles to stay in front of quicker guards now and when Baron wants to he can be a really good defender, especially once the playoffs start. Baron is better at breaking down a defense off the dribble…a back court of him and Stuckey could cause a lot of issues for opposing teams.
Baron also raises his game offensively in the playoffs…in 06/07 he played at an MVP level and averaged 25.3 ppg, shot 51%, 6.5 apg, 4.5 rpg, 2.9 spg, and 2.9 TO’s. Over the last 3 years Chauncey has avg. 17 ppg, shot 41.5%, 5.6 apg, 3.2 rpg, 1 spg, and 2.2 TO’s in the playoffs. Both players are very good, but if we’re starting a playoff series tomorrow I’d choose Baron over Chauncey.
Boney,
I’m not advocating making a run at DWade, I kind of hate the guy. I don’t think he would play in a place like Detroit, anyway. He’s a big market kind of guy, he’s ticketed to stay with Miami or play for LA or the Knicks.
I don’t like the proposed trade with Golden State. I don’t see how Baron fits with this team, he’s a shoot-first point guard. I like Al Harrington, and he fits well with the second unit, but not at the price of Max or Amir (the 2 guys Golden State would most likely covet) and scraps.
I’m not as down on Chauncey as a lot of other people. I don’t understand why his name keeps popping up in trades. He’s a top tier point guard and it’s the most important position in the league. I know we all think Stuckey can step in and play right away, but it would be foolish to think there wouldn’t be a substantial drop off with that move. I don’t even really understand the point of unloading his contract, it’s extremely reasonable and I don’t see his game diminishing significantly enough for the length of his contract to be a big deal.
I agree, Billups is statistically better… but he has also been in a better system and on a better team. You can’t deny they are comparable though… and worth discussion.
And again, it makes sense on other levels other than just pure talent.
BUT LET IT BE KNOWN: in a vacuum i prefer Billups. who wouldn’t?
@Shinons:
“By my math, that’s exactly 546 percent more frustrating.”
Your math is correct, sir.
“No comments on my trade idea? I thought at least Boney would give me props for including Rip in one.”
I don’t think Houston would do it. Scola is 28, but their management probably still views him as a rookie who can blossom into a star.
@QD - I think it makes sense for both teams. I’d vote yes on that one. I think most Rockets fans would too.
@Jim:
“but I’m not sure about Chauncey being a better passer, ball handler or defender.”
PASSING and BALL HANDLING:
chauncey’s assist to bad pass ratio:
6.2
baron’s assist to bad pass ratio:
4.6
chauncey’s assist to turnover ratio:
3.24
baron’s assist to turnover ratio:
2.71
Chauncey’s assists per 48:
10.1
Baron’s assists per 48:
9.4
DEFENSE:
chauncey’s effective field goal % allowed:
51.1%
baron’s effective field goal % allowed:
48.2%
more stats available at 82games, I’m tired of copying…
whoah, flip those last two stats
My last argument on why I vote “NOOOOOOOO” to Baron:
Because his stats look way more like Stephon Marbury than Chauncy Billups. Not good.
Those stats are comparable. Taking into account the different systems they were within.
What exactly is “effective fg% allowed”? Just curious… cause it sounds like the lower % would be better.
Baron had a worse (non existent) team defense around him.
and regarding ball-handling and passing: completely different offense where Davis was the primary scorer AND distributor. But yes, GS had more possessions.
Aaron N:
“Just curious… cause it sounds like the lower % would be better.”
Yeah, I mentioned in a comment afterward that I accidentlly swapped those two numbers, Chauncey allowed his PG opponent to score 48.2% when he was on the floor.
“Who here said Davis is better than Billups?”
LB did, and people seemed to agree with him.
As far as playoff performance goes, you are dealing with two vastly different sample sizes.
As far as 2010 free agents go, here is a list of viable signees who don’t play for us. The biggest noise is about players with player options. Those players have the most control over the destiny, which is bad for us and great for, say, Miami and New York.
Desirables
Joe Johnson
Stephen Jackson
Tracy McGrady
Manu Ginobili
Brendon Haywood
Udonis Haslim
Al Harrington
Quentin Richardson
Raja Bell
Mike Miller
Luke Ridnour
Travis Outlaw
LeBron James (player option)
Dirk Nowitzki (player option)
Josh Howard (player option)
Dwyane Wade (player option)
Michael Redd (player option)
Tyson Chandler (player option)
Eddy Curry (player option)
Amare Stoudemire (player option)
Chris Bosh (player option)
TJ Ford (player option)
Restricteds:
Shelden WIlliams
Rajon Rondo
Adam Morrison
Tyrus Thomas
Rudy Gay
Kyle Lowry
Randy Foye
Marcus Williams
Josh Boone
Renaldo Balkman
Mardy Collins
Brandon Roy
Sergio Rodriguez
LaMarcus Aldridge
Quincy Douby
Ronnie Brewer
Andrea Bargnani
No thanks:
Kenny Thomas
Shareef Abdul-Rahim
Bruce Bowen
Matt Bonner
Mark Blount
Bobby Simmons
Troy Hudson
Jerome James
Darius Miles
Damien Wilkens
Earl Watson
Matt Harpring
Darko Mlicic
Shaquille O’Neal
Ray Allen
Ben Wallace
Marcus Camby
Brad Miller
Cuttino Mobley
Tim Thomas
Derek Fisher
Etan Thomas
Antonio Davis
Brian Cardinal
Mike P…those are all regular season stats. This might not make sense, but I’d rather have Chauncey for the regular season and Baron for the playoffs. Chauncey has played well the last 3 years in the playoffs, but not at the level Baron did a little over a year ago.
“LB did, and people seemed to agree with him.”
link?
I don’t like the idea of planning for the 2010 free agent class. It seems like every other team is doing that, so perhaps the better approach is to not compete in that environment with teams that offer more marketing opportunities and better weather.
RE FA 2010
I think Joe Johnson would be a great combo guard like Dumars is coveting. If Stuckey ends up like we all hope he will, it’d be a good pairing.
Quentin Richardson is a “desirable”? Jacko?
I have been saying since the season ended that the Warriors, Mavericks and Suns are the three most likely dealmaking partners. I still feel that way. While this trade may not get you equal value in return here are some things I like about it….
How many people have said that a deal must be made? This one takes Chauncey’s contract off the books and in return gives us two players who could be off the books after 2009-10.
I like Chauncey (for the most part), but with Stuckey’s emergence we don’t need to be handing out that much money to another guard for three more seasons. And you won’t find many worse pick-and-roll defenders in the NBA than Chauncey. That’s only going to continue to get worse with age. And you notice how we keep saying every year that the team needs more urgency? That, in my opinion, is a direct reflection of our point guard. Say what you will about Baron, but he can get to the basket and the foul line, two big points of emphasis for Curry.
Most think Sheed needs to go (I would be among those). While Harrington is certainly not equal value, we do get Davis’ contract in return which is even bigger than Sheed’s, which waives that concern.
I watch the Warriors a lot since and please take the following into account. Davis’ TO numbers are way overblown since he plays so many more possessions a game due to Nelson’s uptempo style. No team takes worse shots than the W’s (believe me Harrington wouldn’t be jacking up that many 3’s with Curry sitting his a$$ down everytime he took a bad one). While Chauncey is a better shooter than Baron, consider that Baron’s legs (paging Arnie Kander and oh by the way how much do you know about backs?)were done at the end of the year since Nelson refuses to play subs and I believe that the FG% would go up as a Piston. Same for Harrington.
I think many of us have grown extremely comfortable with our beloved DP’s over the years and shudder at the thought of the return talent in these deals. I’m certainly in that group, but as I said before a deal does need to (and most likely will) be made and I believe this is the best option we’ve seen to date by a wide margin. If the W’s toss in that #14 (which I don’t see why they wouldn’t since Nelson hates rookies) I’m all the more in favor of it.
Jim, let me introduce you to my friend “small sample size”, in which Baron plays in the playoffs for one series that was such a favorable matchup for him and his team that it was borderline criminal. In fact the opposing coach screwed up the matchups so badly his team never recovered, his owner panicked and made an awful trade, and eventually lost his job. And by the way, wasn’t hired to fill one of the approximately 43 job openings this year.
So pardon me for not falling all over myself to describe Baron’s wonderful 2007 playoff performance. Besides, it’s not exactly like Baron was terrific down the stretch this year.
Also, Birdman makes an excellent point about planning for the 2010 FA class. That seems like the kind of environment that leads to a deal like “5 years $65 million” for Raja Bell once teams strike out on all the higher profile targets.
Quick Darshan - I’m a big McGrady fan so I liked your idea. One problem with McGrady is he makes a ton of money and it requires two big chips to bring him back. I use Rip + Billups to get T-Mac + Chuck Hayes, you use Rip + Prince to get T-Mac + Scola.
MP: Kevin’s right. I said Baron was better than Chauncey. I NEVER said Baron deserves $6 million more per year. That’s taking my comment out of context. I vote no on the deal.
As for QD’s trade, I (regrettably) agree w/kevin on this one. I think you’re asking too much outta Houston. Also, we lack mad size at that point too. No dice for me either. QD, props for the Real GM link. I’m glad someone without any Pistons bias is hyping Hardin over Jawai as a better fit, because while Hardin is clearly flawed, it’s the truth.
Other Matt…Let me introduce you to my friend “large sample size”, which is Billups last 3 playoff runs. I posted his stats above in this thread, and they are good, but not great by any means…it would be much worse if I only showed the last 3 ECF’s and not his whole playoff totals.
Also, I do realize Baron’s stats are from a smaller sample size, but it was not based on just one series…the Warriors played Dallas and Utah that year. If you want a larger sample size compare Baron’s career playoff averages to Chauncey’s. Baron’s are better.
My original post between these two was disagreeing with Mike P who said “But Chauncey is SO much better than Baron Davis, across the board.” Could you make a good argument that CB is better then Davis? Yes, but to say Baron is SO much better across the board is something I don’t agree with….but we are all entitled to our opinions and one of the best things about this site is seeing opposing view points.
“one of the best things about this site is seeing opposing view points.”
I agree, Jim
“but to say Baron is SO much better across the board is something I don’t agree with”
That’s totally fine with me, my friend. I said that because I was very surprised with how Chauncey outperformed Baron on almost every single stat they can be rated by. All the data I looked at, with a few tiny exceptions, supported Chauncey as a better player. It was by that statistical coverage that I said “across the board”.
Maybe I shouldn’t have said “SO much better”, I think that was a result of actually being surprised by the stats here. I went to them expecting some parity, I was surprised at how they favored Chauncey almost unanimously.
I keep hearing Josh Smith’s name mentioned. I have thought since his rookie season, that he would be a perfect fit for the Pistons. Atlanta is in desperate need of veteran leadership to go with Joe Johnson, and Josh Smith brings top notch defense and scoring to the table. Pistons have a lot of familiar faces in the Atlanta front office (Rick Sund, Mike Woodson) who probably would love to have some Detroit players over there. J-smoove would be expensive, but he could really be a good fit in the D.
Baron and Harrington for billups/sheed would be a step back unless they threw in their draft pick.
QD -
My raging hard on for trading Rip isn’t as large as LB’s raging hard on for antagonizing Kendrick Perkins’ fans, me, interest in drafting a soft pac 10 center who didn’t start his senior season nor is it as raging as Kevin s.’ calculator and proclamations that Billups is the 2nd best PG in the league.
I don’t enjoy the thought of having the oft injured McGrady on the roster unless it’s in Grant Hill/Phoenix fashion. To add McGrady, it basically means you’ll need a capable backup, someone who can start as well as come off the bench.
Pass. But I do like the Rip throw in, and I’m intrigued by Scola even though Yao is their only legit big man other than Scola.
Jim, here’s where I disagree with where your coming from. I’ll give it to you that Chauncey wasn’t good in the 06 ECF and was borderline disgraceful in 07. Enter 07-08 where we draft Stuckey, significantly reduce Chauncey’s minutes across the board, and see excellent results from him. He played 11 fewer minutes across 8 more games for the season. He played 405 minutes less than he did in 2006-07. He played 8 fewer minutes per game in the playoffs than he did last season. His playoff numbers were actually better per 36 minutes for these playoffs than 07, and he played HALF his playoff games after being hurt, and we can all agree that he clearly wasn’t the same when he came back. His numbers per 36 minutes for this past season were better than they were in 06-07.
Playoff career numbers for Billups and Davis are very comparable, and the brunt of Davis’s playoff games were played before he became injury prone. This trade just screams “panic” to me. I don’t get it at all. There’s too much risk. You don’t trade 2 of our core 4 for Boom and Harrington, you HAVE to be able to get more than that. I think we should bring Chauncey back next year, there’s nobody out there that we can plug in for him and improve, and that includes Stuckey.
Also Stephen A Smith just destroyed this rumor by saying his source close to Joe Dumars said, “there’s no way in hell that Joe Dumars makes this trade and that’s a direct quote.”
So now we can stop debating this, I guess.
Chad Ford’s latest draft prediction has the Pistons selecting CDR! That would be HUGE and perfect compliment to Tay! Love it.<<
He has enough range on his shot to play the #2 as well as the #3.
I would love to see this happen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpCADfZD-eg
I was too harsh on Kid Rock. This should be played before every Palace event.
^^ Hilarious
RE: MY HOUSTON TRADE
I threw Scola in there as filler. He’s 29 years old and he’s as good as he’s going to get (the fourth big man in a four big man rotation).
I think Houston would consider it because Sheed would give them a good power player to go along with Yao. And they would be rid of T-Mac’s contract because with the West the way it is and the way their team is constructed, they’re not going anywhere.
Someone suggested Chauncey and Rip for Tmac and someone else. That might be more appealing for them.
Dumars is not looking for a superstar. He’s looking for a HUNGRY superstar. Tmac is the only one I can think of that could be as hungry as Garnett/Pierce/Allen were this year.
Are there any players out there you guys think are hungry for a championship?
OPEN CALL TO ALL DBBers:
List all the players you think have a burning desire to win and could do so if put in the right environment. The players that have something to prove (the way the 2004 Championship team did).
THEN, we can start thinking about trades. The only reason the Celtics won this year is because they wanted it more than anyone else.
QD, the one guy that immediately came to mind was Steve Nash. Obviously, we’re not going to trade for him, but he was the first guy I thought of.
QD, T-Mac is the only HUNGRY star I can think of. Maybe Dirk, but theres no way he’s being traded. Maybe Elton Brand, though I’m not sure he’s in the same class as T-Mac. There’s also a group of younger guys like Melo/Amare/Boozer but I don’t think they have the same hunger level yet as T-Mac…but they are much younger which is nice.
Other Matt, yeah Nash is probably the hungriest but Steve Kerr would get shot if he traded him.
If CDR somehow makes it to #29, count him as my #1 choice. Maybe we go and get Nikola Pekovic. Whatever way it falls, it’s shaping up to be a very interesting night. I’m sure QD and I will have a good time at the bar tomorrow.
On a side note, Kevin Pritchard is the new Joe Dumars. Complete thievery in snatching the 27th pick for MONEY. I would not be mad if he chose to present Joe a package of the 13th pick for Chauncey and a swap of 27 and 29. Likely only a pipe dream though. Ho hum.
Sauce: Kid Rock also had an excellent appearance during the intermission of Red Wings game a few years back. He appeared to already be buzzed and had beer in hand when he got in the booth. He seems like he knows his way around a good time.
Other Matt: Thank you so much for that news from Stephen A. Smith.
Boney: Jawai is just not infinitely more awe-inspiring than Hardin the way you promote him to be. I don’t care if you use stats, perception or whatever, you can’t make a legitimate case, despite your belief that your opinion alone holds far greater weight than any other. So please, put your own hard on for Jawai away, bring something pertinent to the discussion (no, your opinion alone doesn’t count) and remind me to care when Jawai becomes a name that matters to NBA fans outside of draft night.
The numbers Jawai had 2 years ago at Midland Junior College (11.5 and 5.8 and 1 block per) aren’t exactly indicative of a guy who’s about to set the basketball world on fire, let alone make a huge impact. I’m not saying Hardin is going to light the league on fire either. But it’s a lot easier to project Hardin making an impact than it is Jawai.
I know you hate stats, but I’d like to point out that Jawai’s rebounds and blocks at Midland Junior College (11.4 points 5.85 rebounds and exactly 1 block per are his stats from his 13 games in ‘06-’07 at Midland) are actually lower than Hardin’s four-year career averages from his time in the “Whack-10″. If you want to give Jawai a pass because he’s Australian and new to the game and has upside and blah blah blah, than it’s only fair to strongly consider giving some added weight to the fact that Hardin was putting up 10.3, 8.4 and 2 blocks/game in the same year Jawai was at Midland (’06-’07) when he went down eleven games (comparable sample size) into his junior season. Please, try to tell me that those 11 non-conference games weren’t against real competition or against JC-like squads and I’ll be glad to show you the Cal schedule that year that says otherwise.
I’m not going to consider a disappointing senior year season as the only evidence of what a guy can do. You, on the other hand, tend to revel in your own short-sightedness and lazy prognosticating. Long story short: Jawai’s track record is an utter joke (sorry again, Laughton).
Side note: I just remembered that the deal we made when we sent Super Dupe to Minnesota back in the pre-season of 2005 (despite him subsequently coming back to the Stones the following season) guarantees us Minnesota’s 2nd round pick this year or last year. Since there’s been no talk about it (at least not that I’ve heard) I’m assuming that the T-Wolves are hoarding their pick this year in hopes that next year’s will be later (yeah, right). Either way, that’s like an additional Pistons’-slot first rounder this draft or (probably) next. Long story short: Joe’s a genius.
*next year
anyone know anything about the baron davis rumor?
its fun to play trademachine on espn…heres another scenario that worked…but its a complete sweep of our core.
sheed for amare
rip/prince for tmac
chaunce for kaman, knight, powell and thornton
that means
starting:
stuck
tmac
thornton
amare
kaman
bench:
dyess
maxiell
amir
afflalo
powell
knight
samb
you can’t get any better than that!!! frontcourt average more than 2 blocks a game and average double-double….and we got stuck, tmac and thornton with offense/defense minded…..curry can guide this team to successful defensive threatt with their natural scoring ability….plus, look how deep our bench is. crazy!
i think im sold if its legitimate…after his magic in the playoffs two years ago and the fact that he would dominate eastern conf point guards, and actually go to the hole on a regular basis, he could probaly only help. Him and stuckey would be sweet. He could give stuckey his perspective, to put along with billups’ and lindsey’s. This may be my fav so far! Not young, but the championship is right there!
ric that is completely crazy! there is no way PHX would go for sheed for amare, way way too young
baron at the right price is the real deal
the only player i know who has the desire to win it all???? heres who and why, my explanation
http://pistonsinla.blogspot.com/2008/06/talent-character-and-winning-it-all.html
the only player i know who has the desire to win it all???? heres who and why, my explanation
pistonsinla.blogspot.com/2008/06/talent-character-and-winning-it-all.html
Side note: I just remembered that the deal we made when we sent Super Dupe to Minnesota back in the pre-season of 2005 (despite him subsequently coming back to the Stones the following season) guarantees us Minnesota’s 2nd round pick this year or last year.>>
Sorry but the pick is restricted this year and the T-Wolves are using it. It is ours next years.
ric, i cant believe u subjected me to that propoganda! The pistons are in Michigan, here we like our playera to be uninjured becuase we go to games (250ish straight sellouts maybe 220 but whose counting) in the big ass palace. We wont trade our core for someone who might not be there in the playoffs….we appreciate tayshaun and people who play through injuries he leads the league in consecutive starts. Not selfish three jackers(not that baron doesnt jack threes). Why dont we bring Joe D back if u want true desire
awesome about that pick though….MIN will be pretty bad this year
anthony, its not just in michigan that wants uninjured player, its everywhere!!! ummmm also, majority of pistons fans, including me, appreciate every single core players….including prince…but joe made it clear, everybodys in play….i thought by now everybody would know that…….i know youre not dumb to say and think what you just wrote, i think youre smarter than that…or are you not. i don’t get why you said the “pistons are in michigan” okay, whats ur point???? im not sure if ur pretending to be dumb or u don’t know that u are.
the site u sent me to said pistons in LA…..where pistons live in los angeles….so i figured it was a pistons blog out of LA, maybe im wrong. But those of us that understand whats going here know that our team functions on our core, whether our current core, or a newly assembled one will play nearly the same style which requires our guys, especially our best(assuming we got TMAC) to be there for a crap load of games, and i dont think he would.
i dont understand how i am pretending to be dumb by the way
i was simply mocking the completely retarded site u sent me to
u could have at least picked a somewhat healthy player for your #1 trade
and who do you prefer…baron davis???? as delusional as you are, why don’t u include ron artest, ben wallace and boris diaw…..besides you love to de-grade the core.
oh, by the way, the sites represents pistons fans from LA…..oh, im sorry, i have to spell it out for someone like you, but hey, anytime glad help.
well, if thats the representation LA has to Detroit, im glad were away from the smog here in Mich…yes, i do prefer Baron, i gave my reasons…..but at least the pistons are actively looking at baron according to espn, rather than something u thought based on his desire(?)…..let me say that again. Something u thought up based on his desire…..
what desire? i havent seen it take him that far
besides, at least hes really like 25 with all of the games hes missed
Jemele Hill 9/11′d the Boston community.
HEY-O!
so i guess thats one upside
Since there’s been no talk about it (at least not that I’ve heard) I’m assuming that the T-Wolves are hoarding their pick this year in hopes that next year’s will be later (yeah, right). Either way, that’s like an additional Pistons’-slot first rounder this draft or (probably) next.>>
Sorry but the pick is restricted this year and the T-Wolves are using it. It is ours next years.>>
I wrote “last year’s” once earlier in the post by accident, but I went on to (correctly) refer to it as “next year’s” in all subsequent discussion throughout the post and even mused that it’s likely to be next year’s pick that we end up with. I also took the time to correct it in a follow up post. I’m sorry you didn’t exercise the attention span to actually read the other three sentences surrounding the one you’re attempting to correct.
And further, since I do have the attention span, the pick is not “restricted” (ie: top-three protected), it’s simply that Minnesota is the team with the option of choosing which year the “future” draft pick part of the deal is exercised: 2008 or 2009. Apparently they’ve chosen to go with 2009 since no one has talked about it being ours this year. If it were restricted, Minnesota would have to hand it over or keep it based on where their pick was.
Consult the third question in this FAQ section:
http://www.nba.com/pistons/chat_mailbox/mailbag_faqs.html
“nor is it as raging as Kevin s.’ calculator ”
How could it be? I am the owner of one very satisfied calculator…
Anyone confused as to how Jermaine O’neal and Chris Bosh will interact in Toronto (assuming of course Jermaine can avoid an injury).
Enlighten me…
Sometimes I think we need an “ignore user” feature around here. I can think of 2 or 3 people I’d put on that list.
*Sigh*
I think it will be a good mix, because they can each play half as hard and make a whole power forward. Wah wah wah waaaaaahhhh. (that was my sarcastic trombone sound)
And the more I think about T-Mac, the more I likey.
Other Matt, I was having the very same thought last night. Smart minds think alike, my friend. Smart minds…
I honestly like the T-Mac deal better than the Baron deal.
Both T-Mac and Bdubs have had injury problems… so I don’t know why T-Mac is considered to be such a greater risk.
T-Mac is a top ten player when healthy, and I think a change of scenery to a high class organization would do him some good. He wants to prove that he can win on the highest level, and I think he would thrive in a team that can spread out the offense like the Pistons. Both he and Stuckey can make plays, penetrate and create shots/dunks for the likes of Rip, Sheed, Max, etc. Add a young Amir Johnson to the mix, and you’ve got a tough teams of veterans and young players mixed with one of the most talented SF’s in the league… Depth, Defense and Desire.
However, I would like Carmelo better. He is younger and hasn’t reached his ceiling yet.
Sauce: Now we have even more reason to hate the emotionally stunted Celtics fandom. I can just hear a flock of them chanting “Bullshit” in unison while reading Ms. Hill’s article.
Are we talking about the article where she said that rooting for Boston was like rooting for the Nazi’s? Or did she re-nuke The City of Front Runners?
Also, I grammar police myself. Come on Matt, you’re better than that.
Other Matt: That one. I’m a week behind on the story, apparently Sauce is too, no? I still think it’s hilarious that ESPN edited it out of the article and suspended her.
“I threw Scola in there as filler. He’s 29 years old and he’s as good as he’s going to get (the fourth big man in a four big man rotation).”
I agree with you on Scola. I just think the Rockets place a lot of value in him, which isn’t entirely misplaced. He had a solid year, and was great in the second half. What about Landry?
“Anyone confused as to how Jermaine O’neal and Chris Bosh will interact in Toronto (assuming of course Jermaine can avoid an injury).
Enlighten me…”
Well, it’s a better mix than Ford and Calderon. O’Neal will likely play center, taking some of the defensive pressure off Bosh.
I like this trade for the Raps. O’Neal is a big risk, but so is Ford, and he is a major redundancy to boot. If O’Neal can revert to his play two years ago, and play 70 games, they will be a real force in the Eastern Conference.
They might look to move Bargnani while he still has some trade value. They should be able to fleece a team out of a decent-caliber wing player.
okay anthony, i need to accept the fact that you are what you are….smog is everywhere, that will be the last educational information i’m gonna have to give you…the rest that you need, seek help.
anyway back to a better conversation i doubt that o’neal has a real value, even he knows it, he can’t get any better deal than what he has now.
yahtzee i see what u mean about tmac, same scenario with billups recent injury….generally speaking, youre always gonna have to take some risk, whether its a young player with no injury, but without experience or whether is a superstar veteran that’s old or prone to injury…either way, theres risk….every single player has ups and downs. not to mention chemistry issue with the team.
Jeez. I stay off the site for one morning and the comments go ballistic. LB, don’t apologize for Jawai I have counselling and it helps me get through this
I just hope if we get a superstar it is McGrady, he is hungry he needs witchcraft to stay healthy (Arnie K) and he would not have to be the man here. I also think its no coincidence that Houston is a better team when T-Mac is healthy rather than Yao.
It all comes down to the cost once again. I agree that a combination of two of Rip, Billups and Sheed is required to get him. Chauncey still has much to offer the team and he and T-Mac would be a killer backcourt.
Joe will suprise us all though by most likely fleecing some other dumb GM into giving us their star for loose change.
joe would definitely consult with arnie k regarding specifics on tmac’s injury….from there, joe will make an assesment how much his willing to give up for tmac. the good thing about tmac is he doesn’t have to shoulder a team on his own, no offense to any of the houston players including yao, but hes the guy being asked every night to put numbers on the stat…..just imagine kg, he didn’t need to put the numbers he used to when he was a twolves, he got key/role players in boston……thats what tmac would be in detroit. i think with the help of arnie (rehab) and curry (defensive mindset) tmac can become a better player in detroit.
Is T-Mac on the market? Just curious as to where all this talk is coming from.
I’ve had a man crush on McGrady for years now. Those 13 points in 35 seconds, the most unreal thing I’ve ever seen in basketball. He’s a ferocious player, can be asolutely unreal on the court.
For me, however, it has been an appreciation from afar. I dig what he’s doing, its great to watch, but I can say quite confidently that I’ve never wished, thought or hoped that he would play on our team. We’ve been SO fortunate in these past six seasons that injuries have never derailed our season. Even when Chauncey went down against Orlando recently, we still had options.
I’m very hesitant on bringing Tracy McGrady to our team if it means losing two or more of those solid options. Look, if we have McGrady as a Piston for a few years, he WILL go down with an injury. History can’t be re-written– he WILL get injured, those back spasms will keep him out of a few weeks worth of games.
As our team stands now, you can take any single player and remove them from our team for two weeks– save for one. Chauncey, Rip, Rasheed and McDyess can all sustain an injury and the Pistons can still be plus .500. Take away Tayshaun, and we’ve got some issues (yeah, this is coming from one of the big Josh Smith proponents)
Like Laughton said above, we’d give up 2+ of Sheed, Rip and Billups for McGrady. If McGrady goes down (make then WHEN McGrady goes down), we’ll have a much harder time staying afloat (see: above .500) with less starting options. Point being, bring Tracy McGrady to Detroit, one of my favorite players in the league, and we will face disappointment from his injuries.
I’m not going to get into his poor shooting or turnovers, that’s another discussion. Sure, a good PG and an active defensive team will help, but not if we give up a good part of that to get him in a Pistons uniform…
kevin s, reporters has reason to believe that houston may be willing to see whats in the market, and tmac is their biggest asset, similar to pistons 4main core. it was reported in the middle of 2007-2008 season that houston are open to trading for a superstar or adding another one…unfortunately, houston didn’t really get a dance partner, plus, they were doing so well in the season including 22winning streak. because of that, they didn’t really make a push for a trade, and when they did, when yao got injured, it was too late. after the 1st round playoffs, houston were out and many unnecessary blame went to tmac again, such as 1st round curse, not getting it done and other things similar to it. michael rosenberg has a reason to believe that joe is either getting melo or tmac, 2 that stands up to be a superstar that’s available and affordable. a couple of days ago, tmac did mention on his summer activity that he is seeking for another superstar to help his houston rockets, now that could mean 2 things, first, he either wants to stay in houston if he gets another help from a superstar OR go to a team who could help him contend for a title vice versa. here is few of the many reports about it.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/sports/5852831.html
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080618/SPORTS03/306180022/1051
so my thoughts on Joe D. “shopping” Sheed and Billups to Golden State. What is the best way of forcing another dance partner into the dance? Make it seem like a deal could be in the makes with someone else.
Houston has interest in both Sheed and Billups…and my guess is Joe D. would be more interested in trading rip and sheed so that the backcourt wasn’t clogged up…but either way, I’d like to see T-Mac on the Pistons…
I don’t think we’ll trade for Davis and Harrington for all the reasons stated above, but I think this could be a balk to initiate a better move.
“Make it seem like a deal could be in the makes with someone else.”
Welcome back James B., haven’t seen you in a while. I had been thinking about your point for a while, even the mention that “stuckey is untouchable”. In salesmanship, that’s some pretty powerful propaganda. I’m with you on that thought, let’s hope Joe is playing the propaganda wire like Daly did…
I told you people that rooting for the Celtics doesn’t make you a Pistons fan. I fucking told you. You didn’t listen. I feel like Short Round.
Screw T-mac, why not grab Yao?
I’m getting anxious to see what actually happens this summer. The speculation seems endless. Wonder if any of these ideas (Denver, Golden State, Houston, Sixers, Clips) are even close to reality.
As much as I have heard about our guys being available, I have not heard so much about how another team EAGERLY wants to aquire one of them. hmmmm…
“I told you people that rooting for the Celtics doesn’t make you a Pistons fan. I fucking told you. You didn’t listen. I feel like Short Round.”
Ha! Sauce FTW.
I agree with James B. that Dumars is floating this out there for one of three reasons: either he needs or is looking for another dance partner, Mullin is looking for a dance partner or it’s a way to get Davis signed by either GS or Det. If I’m Baron I’m looking around at where am I going to get money next year? Nobody is going to cough up 20M+ right now for a long term ext. nor is anyone going to sign him next year for that amount of money or even close if he comes up lame this year.
What about trading for Baron and then dealing him to the Clips for Brand? Baron goes home and the Clips have a draw to go against the Lakers and their point guard, the Clips get something for Brand before he opts out next year and we get a low post scorer, a class act and a guy who really wants to win.
I gotta believe at the end of the day, Joe D. has something up his sleeve or the Warriors throw in the 14th pick or a third team gets involved. Since the Raps/pacers trade is out there, they’ve talked about adding a third team but keepinig the components the same. I just don’t like Davis/Harrington for CB/Sheed. I just don’t see how that improves us.
Finally, the T-Mac talk is interesting. I haven’t heard or seen T-Mac putting in alot of summer work, but maybe I’m wrong. I know some of it has to do with being hurt alot(Ugh!!), but if we can get a low post player to replace Sheed, I think I pull the trigger.
Ok, this is off the subject, but so is everything else since the only subject is that “DBB is slow.” I’m not getting why Rose is the obvious choice for Chicago. What is the one thing everyone’s been killing the Bulls about lacking? An inside scoring presence. Then the guy who has a chance to be one of the best inside scoring presences since Shaq comes along and they say “no thanks”?
Maybe it’s just me but:
Hinrich/Gordon
Hughes/Thabo
Deng/Noc
Beasley/Thomas
Gooden/Noah
looks better than:
Rose/Hinrich
Gordon/Hughes
Deng/Noc
Gooden
Thomas/Noah
Mark SoCal
I have been dreaming about the Baron Davis/Elton Brand situation. However, I can’t figure out if GS would prefer to have Rasheed/Chauncey over Brand. hmmm