… at least, so says Chris McCosky:
Since when does a one-sentence, non-sourced note from a non-NBA writer in a secondary publication up in Canada warrant such buzz? The Pistons and Rockets are not having on-going discussions about Tracy McGrady. There is no deal. Nothing is remotely close. Joe Dumars hasn’t talked to the Rockets in several weeks and the Rockets have made it clear they have zero interest in trading T-Mac.
There’s a huge variety of opinions among Pistons fans regarding McGrady, so I imagine this will please a great deal of people and annoy the rest. I’m actually on the fence, in part because the idea of trading for him seems so fanciful I’m not able to form a solid opinion. But I will say I disagree vehemently with the “McGrady is a loser …” school of thought. Not too long ago, the same could have been said about Kevin Garnett, too. A winning team is rarely, if ever, a one-man show.
(Also, yes, I’m back. Many, many thanks to Mike Payne for filling in this weekend.)
I don’t think Tmac is a loser either but he’s definitely damaged goods physically. We would have to trade 2 all-star level starters to get back a guy who could only play 30-40 games a year. Way too much risk.
I still think Carmelo should be the apple of JoeD’s eye. He’s still really young and his defensive effort (which along with physical ability is what defense is all about) would definitely improve on a defensive-minded team of vets with a demanding young coach.
Agreed. T-Mac is not a loser. He was on crappy team with Orlando. The Houston team is good but so are all the other teams in the West. They went to the brink against Utah without Yao. It would be interesting to see what we would have to give up to appease Houston and make the salaries work but if we didn’t give up too much I would be all for it.
I think Tmac is a gunner, which is not a loser per say… but he’s like a Gilbert Arenas-type.
He’ll gun it up 20+ times a night if he’s “feeling it” whether it’s in the flow of the offense or not.
I’ll take a gunner who can create over.. well without starting a fight, we know who I’d take him over.
Rip and a basket of picks!
Catch any fish Matt?
I agree with JesseC about Carmelo. He would be my #1 choice based on the players that we potentially have a chance at acquiring (obviously we couldn’t get Lebron, D. Howard, etc.). He’s young (24), and his two biggest issues in my eyes are his defense and attitude. For defense we have Michael Curry to preach that to him and for his attitude issues we have Joe D/Michael Curry/Pistons organization and the fact that we aren’t the Denver Nuggets. If Denver gets off to a rocky start in the loaded West they may be willing to shake things up.
Gotta agree w/JesseC about T-Mac. He might not be a loser, but he has a bad back at the age of 29, a very poor indicator for the future.
However, I don’t think Melo is the right choice for Detroit, for reasons I go into here. I still don’t think we need to do a whole lot on the perimeter- we have more than enough talent and scoring from the wing and guard positions. What we need is someone to battle down low, which can be said for nearly every team in the NBA.
Jim: Zero fish, but plenty of Oberon. Better that than the other way around, I suppose.
“Better that than the other way around, I suppose.”
Empirically so. I’ll take beer’s upside any day.
I must stick to the assessment that T-Mac is a mentally weak loser and physically unreliable (although very talented). Blowing 3-1, 2-0, 2-0, leads vs Detroit, Dallas, and Utah? Once? Okay. Twice? Possibly. THREE TIMES? The guy is not a winner. Add to the fact that he totally dogged it during Orlando’s 19-game losing streak (Orlando was mediocre talent-wise, not awful). Would any superstar allow their team to drop that many in a row? Wouldn’t they manage to steal at least one? He’s also been on record as saying that he didn’t expect his teams to beat Detroit or Dallas (No “winner” would go into a series with that mindset). Contemplating retirement at one point also doesn’t give the impression that he loves playing basketball. His crying act after the Utah loss also isn’t the type of thing to rally the troops around you. He looked totally defeated in that press conference. As for KG, he doesn’t have the skill set to dominate as a scorer, but he’s a virtual iron man compared to McGrady. Lastly, no one can ever accuse Garnett of not playing hard. As part of an ensemble, T-Mac can be useful, but as the main cog? No way.
Considering that McGrady makes $21 million which is $8 million a year more than Sheed and about $12 million a year more than Tay who he would presumably replace and that he would put us above the luxury tax threshold unless we traded 2 starters for him, the whole idea makes about as much sense as trading Amir for Darko.
I don’t hate the T-Mac trade. A T-Mac/Scolia for Rip/Sheed trade gives us a 2 who can score other than out of a set, which we really need for late game situations until Stuckey is ready to fill that role for us. Also Scolia would give us a good low post banger with energy. That said, I still see it as a lateral move at best. If I’m Houston, I’d pull the trigger on that deal in a heartbeat.
T-Mac at $12-15 Million maybe. But at $21M, nooooooooooooooo way man. Also, not giving up 2 starters for him. A starter and nice bench piece maybe, but not 2 starters and $20+ million. I just dont see it.
McCoskey is such a parade pisser.
I caught you a delicious bass.
I would seriously take T-mac in a cocaine heartbeat. Even if it cost us two starters, it would be a serious shakeup that could really give the dude a chance to finally win. Anyone else think one of these lineups would not look good:
Dice
Sheed
Prince
T-Mac
Stuckey
or
Dice
Sheed
T-Mac
Hamilton
Stuckey
or even
Dice
Sheed
T-Mac
Stuckey
Billups
The disclaimer to my obvious minority view of this trade is that, I don’t think we win next year unless something really changes. Once again the East has reloaded and we are not moving (yet). Also, we have Arnie K, the Witchdoctor/Shaman/Warlock.
Will it happen? No.
Joe D has way more sense than I do, thats why he keeps winning
Shocks. Pegs. Lucky!
I agree with Laughton. Not that this is “the deal” but the Pistons aren’t winning squat without some changes. In my opninion, this team could use a large helping of Josh Smith.
I don’t think we take TMac unless the youngsters are ready. And after watching the summer league games I’m not convinced that they are. Even Stuckey, who I think is impressive, has not really showed me how he consistantly integrates into an offense. I see a lot of one on one taking your man off the dribble penetration from him but little else. I don’t think he’s ready. Afflalo needs to show a consistent mid range and long range game and game changing defense while Amir needs to prove that he can defend NBA level talent without fouling out. Cheikh Samb has a jumper but he’s not getting that many rebounds or blocked shots. Max is good but sometimes he’s inconsistent.
In my mind it doesn’t make sense to make a major move in getting a Tracy McGrady like player unless you feel that you are that close to the next level wich for us is the Championship.
All of you talking about his back act like you have no idea who Arnie Kander is. Back problems very often can be considerably reduced and/or completely alleviated through things as small as changing the in-sole of your shoe to re-align your stance, tweaking your jumping form, or simply adding more range in the exercises, stretches, and therapy you receive.
Chris Webber’s knee problems were a non-factor despite it keeping him out of plenty of games on Phili’s roster both in the year he signed and the year prior (he missed at least a 1/4 of each season with pretty much all of his games missed the season he played with us being attributed to his time with Phili). I remember reading about how Kander watched game and practice tape of Chris Webber starting when he was in high school, and ended up changing a few things in how Chris jumped, planted, stretched, etc. and surprise surprise, no issue with his knees.
McDyess’s knee problems were a major concern and yet Kander has kept him healthier than he’s ever been since the first knee injury.
Point is, using McGrady’s back problems as a reason for not acquiring a player is pointless because Arnie Kander has the healing touch.
I’m on the McGrady bandwagon and have been since the end of last year.
Also, I’m tired of the same people saying, “we won’t ever get full value for our players because they all play better together than they would on another team,” while at the same time insisting that we get full value for any trade we make. You can’t have it both ways people.
shawnindc,
You cant expect Stuckey to work on things like integrating offensive flow into a game when Sharpe has only been in the offense for three weeks of conditioning and morning practices, not to mention the players on the bench.
In fact, if you look at what Stuckey IS working on and has been working on the hardest, it’s gaining the respect of the other players through leading by example, and in doing so improving his leadership abilities. That is just as important to Stuckey’s development as learning offensive flow (something which he has the pre-season and the entire regular season to work on).
t-mac is one of those guys i just can’t get behind. there’s something about him that rubs me the wrong way. maybe he just seems soft. maybe he just seems to wilt with adversity. he bitched his way out of orlando. he just doesn’t seem like a stand-up guy.
zoo crew article on nba.com:
http://www.nba.com/summerleague2008/zoo_crew_feature_20080713.html
nice heads up there on the article. good read. I’ve been starved for Pistons content…
“Sometimes you’ve got to do those little things to make your presence felt. Scoring gets the most notoriety, but if you can go out there, give effort, play defense, do the little things and score, then you’re only going to help your team.”
Yes Arron, I believe you ‘Get it’
I cant rate the guy highly enough.
McGrady and Billups have both played 11 years in the NBA and McGrady has played 2196 more regular season minutes. The guy isn’t injury prone, he’s prone to overuse on mediocre teams where the coach hands him the ball and says “try to win it for us” and plays him 40 minutes a night. McGrady has averaged 65 games a year in Houston and 68 games a year for his career. He’s never been hurt during the playoffs (which is when Detroit needs him) and his 28.5 points per game playoff average means he gets a double team every night. I’m cool with Joe Dumars standing pat and improving internally with youth and better coaching or whatever but it’s Dumars who said he wanted talent. The two most talented players who might be available are Carmelo and McGrady.
Put me down in the McGrady camp.
Note: My minutes/games comparison reminded me that Phoenix GM Steve Kerr said that he wants to cut the number of games Steve Nash plays in addition to this minutes per game.
http://www.ktar.com/sports/?sid=884069&nid=21
I know pro soccer teams in Europe rest elite players from competitive play to help avoid the injuries associated with fatigue. I wonder if we might see more of that in the NBA. Detroit started to rest players with about a month left but if you are confident that you have a good team why not do it year all season long? If you think Stuckey and Amir need minutes to develop why not rest one big and one guard each week on a schedule and use those minutes as a way to develop your talent according to a schedule?
I think most coaches are for resting their star players but it’s an issue of seeding. In the East the top teams are vying for homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs and in the west every game matters especially looking at next year when you throw Portland into that mix. Noe there are most likely two solid teams that won’t make the playoffs.
As a coach myself, I think I sub more than most coaches but sometimes its really hard to trust your bench (obviously my bench is nowhere as talented as Stuckey, Aff, Max and Amir). But there are games I want to sub more heading into them and sometimes you just can’t find enough minutes.
Also, won’t fans be hurt here? When I went to the Hornets game this year I was excited to watch CP3 play and what if he was taking the week off? It would suck not to see him not to mention N.O. whole style of play would be different aka not as exciting without their electrifying pg.
Here are the point guards T-Mac has played with over the course of his career: Rafer Alston, David Wesley, Tyronn Lue, Darrell Armstrong, Dell Curry, Dee Brown, and Damon Stoudamire. I do think that playing along side Chauncey would lift him to another level in a way that playing along side KG lifted Pierce. Also, he’d have the most realistic chance of winning a title of his career combined with a major itch to do so. I think if we pulled this trade, I don’t think we’d get a whole lot better - but I don’t think it’d be something we’d regret.
A side note to the fellow IU DBBers - Roderick Wilmont will be out there for the Bucks tonight. Hoping to see him perform well.
@joejoejoe- Thats is a very surprising stat. I’m not a big stat guy but total minutes played in a career definitely has meaning. Does Tmac still have more minutes than Billups with playoff minutes included?
Speaking of IU DBBers, have you seen Earl the Pearl in summer league? He played pretty damn well for the Pacers and has signed on w/ the Jazz for Vegas play. Hoping he does well as there is a potential bet on the line between LawyerBoy and myself.
JamesB-
Stuckey needs to show that he makes the other players around him better. He is playing at the point guard position and needs to make players like Amir and Afflalo better. Until he does this I don’t think that Billups (because of Stuckey) or Hamilton (because of Afflalo) are expendable as some people suggest. Neither Cheick nor Amir have demonstrated any game changing presence near the post either defensively nor offensively. So to make a move for a guy like TMac where we would have to give up at least two veterans and maybe a rook just doesn’t seem worth it.
We would just end up exiting in the first round of the playoffs assuming we even make it that far instead of the conference finals. At least as constructed we have a chance to get a championship.
I’m glad a couple guys came on here to defend TMac. I find it funny that people will say that Carmelo will improve his defense when he becomes a Piston but TMac will destroy the offense with his “selfishness.”
They also call a guy who won 22 straight a loser. Do you think the current Pistons team could maintain that level?
They call him soft and not clutch (sound like Garnett to anyone?).
I think of all the false trade rumors I heard, the TMac one is the best (if Houston’s willing to take Sheed’s whiny ass as part of the deal).
TMac has something to prove (the main thing missing from the current team).
Are there serious risks? Of course. Any trade has that.
Either way, this is a lot of debate for a trade that won’t happen.
To those that call TMac a loser, you may be right. But all of the Pistons players are not necessarily “winners.” Even the ones that have won a title.
I firmly believe that Sheed is a LOSER. He has a loser’s mentality. His I’ll-get-ejected-in-a-close-out-game antics to me are not too different from Mike Tyson’s I’ll-bite-this-guy’s-ear-so-I-won’t-get-embarrassed-by-getting-knocked-out antics.
“We would just end up exiting in the first round of the playoffs assuming we even make it that far instead of the conference finals. At least as constructed we have a chance to get a championship”
All of this is probably a moot point since the title of this post is “No sense talking about McGrady”, but we would be much better then a 1st round exit with a 2-1 deal for T-Mac. Once Yao went down last year this is how Houston’s team looked around T-Mac; Rafer Alston, Battier, Scola, Landry, Bobby Jackson, Luther Head, Mutombo. Who was Houston’s second best player? Battier? Scola? Alston? Those guys are solid players, but if they are your second option you won’t be too successful. That was their top 8, yet they finished 20-7 after Yao was injured in the West and took a very good Utah team to 6 games in the 1st round.
If we traded for T-Mac we’d have him, plus 2 of these 4 (Rip, Chauncey, Sheed, Prince) and McDyess, Amir, Maxiel, Stuckey, and Afflalo as our top 8. We’d still have the MLE, veterans minimum, and we may be able to get another guy like Luther Head or Scola in the package. There is no way that is a 1st round and out team in the East. Personally, I think that scenario gives us a better chance at winning it all.
I definitely like stats, but they don’t tell the whole story. I don’t think you can quantify the impact a star can have towards helping you win games. Having one guy who can consistently draw double teams is huge, especially in the playoffs. If we put one of our core 4 guys (pick any one) and put them on Houstons team after Yao went down they would maybe have a .500 winning percentage…with T-Mac they were 20-7.
“Either way, this is a lot of debate for a trade that won’t happen.”
I really could see Houston backpedaling. Alston, Rip, Battier, Sheed, and Yao has a much better chance of getting the job done in the West than Alston, T-Mac, Battier, Filler, and Yao. They’ve been killed for years for having a huge hole at the four. I see this trade as a bigger no-brainer for Houston than us.
@Cheers - Haven’t seen Earl play, but saw his stat line. Looks like he’s been doing great. Hopefully he can find a place out there, maybe as a back-up - probably doesn’t have the bulk to ever be a starter.
@JesseC - here are the career avgs. for T-Mac and a few others
Class of ‘97*
McGrady - 11 yrs, 749 games, 26,281 mins, 2389 min/yr
Billups - 11 yrs, 758 games, 24,085 mins, 2190 min/yr
Duncan - 11 yrs, 824 games, 30,617 mins, 2783 min/yr
Billups has played 81 more playoff games and 2742 more playoff minutes than McGrady so overall CB has played more basketball. McGrady is 13th all-time in playoff MPG at 42.5 but he’s only played 36 games in his playoff career.
* - these #s are off a bit because of the ‘98-99 short strike year
So sayeth Michael Curry:
“Stuckey played last year, and had a really good playoffs,” said Pistons head coach Michael Curry. “But I think we have to remember he missed about 35 games last year with a broken hand, so he doesn’t even have a full season under his belt yet. He’s shown promise, but he’s got to get his court time in so he can maximize his ability as a player.”
He’s the man.
Jim-
TMac is a good player. I’d love to have him. But I’m not willing to trade two of our starters for him. Houston would want Rip and probably Tay and maybe either Max or Amir or even both. They might give us Battier (and not Scola) but he doesn’t excite me.
You wrote-”I don’t think you can quantify the impact a star can have towards helping you win games.”
Houston has had a star for quite awhile and they haven’t made it out of the first round yet. So it takes more than a star to advance.
You wrote-”There is no way that is a 1st round and out team in the East.”
I think you are underestimating the East. The two top teams in the league are in the east. And with the way that the East is constructed now four of the top 8 teams could very well be in the East. (Boston, Detroit, Philadelphia, Toronto? or Cleveland?) >> (LA Lakers, Utah, San Antonio, New Orleans)
For those who support McGrady coming here, does his enormous dropoff in production last season concern you? His PER went from 23.28 to 18.50, and he flagged in every single statistical category. For a guy with so many minutes under his belt, that is a major worry.
For the record, I didn’t like the Carmelo trade either. But you can make the case that Melo has his best years in front of him.
“Stuckey needs to show that he makes the other players around him better. He is playing at the point guard position and needs to make players like Amir and Afflalo better.”
This is a sportswriter cliche, but I don’t know what it means. Granted, Stuckey needs to learn to drive and dish, as well as not pick up his dribble. This would get him more assists. Moreso, it would open up the lane for him, and he would score more with fewer turnovers.
But if Spellcheck can’t shoot, he can’t shoot.
Shane Battier isn’t coming packaged in any McGrady deal. That means the Pistons have to send back $25.6M in salary to Houston. That’s two starters and the entire bench or three starters including McDyess.
McGrady’s overall numbers have gone down these past few years, but I think he’d have more success in Detroit, which has several other players who can create and finish plays. In Houston, Yao’s the only other guy who can reliably create offense; the rest of the guys are mostly spot up shooters or weirdos like Scola, who is chaos incarnate around the basket but doesn’t really create his own offense. He’s had to take bailout shots a lot, which have hurt his percentages (granted, he does have the tendency to go Baron Davis and chuck crappy 3s). There were times last year when I thought he was actually more dangerous as a facilitator than if he was looking for his own offense, but in an environment like Detroit, he wouldn’t be under as much pressure to force plays or shots. He’s definitely no longer a player who can post crazy Jordan-esque numbers, but I don’t think the slump he had last year is indicative of his career trajectory.
“They also call a guy who won 22 straight a loser. Do you think the current Pistons team could maintain that level?”
Yes. We had a stretch where we won 18 out of 20, having lost the two by a combined 10 points. During that stretch, we were more dominant (outscoring opps. by an average of 16ppg) than the Rockets were during their win streak (12 ppg). The Rockets played very well during that stretch, but luck played just as big of a role.
I don’t think the “winner” or “loser” label should really affect our personnel decisions. But if being a “winner” is some ineffable concept that applies to certain players, and is vital to team success, then it would seem absurd to trade two guys with back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back conference finals experience under their belts for a guy who has never made it out of the first round.
“Shane Battier isn’t coming packaged in any McGrady deal. That means the Pistons have to send back $25.6M in salary to Houston. ”
Detroit can take on 125% of the salary they dish out. Rip and Sheed for McGrady and Battier works.
“For those who support McGrady coming here, does his enormous dropoff in production last season concern you? His PER went from 23.28 to 18.50, and he flagged in every single statistical category.”
There aren’t many guys in the league with more talent than Tracy McGrady. I’m with you that he has his red flags - I’ve said all along that if we acquire him it would be a lateral move at best, and that’s considering if we don’t overpay. But can you think of any guy in the league with more talent combined plus more to prove? Not to mention the fact that he’s never played on a team like Detroit before. I honestly think he would flourish. I just don’t know if that would be enough to put us over the hump.
@ShawninDC…my premise for the trade was based on a 2-1 deal, if we have to start throwing in Max/Amir or both then I agree with you, it would be too much to give up.
“So it takes more than a star to advance”.
This is definitely true, but you are also much more likely to win the title if you do. 60 of the 62 NBA champs have had a hall of fame player…the 2 teams to win a title with out a hall of famer are the 79 Sonics (D. Johnson should be a HoF) and our 2004 Pistons (I don’t think we’ll get anybody in the HoF).
I guess it just comes down to what type of value we put on certain players like T-Mac…I just think a trade for T-Mac or Melo gives us a better shot at a title (definitely comes with risks too).
I don’t think we should do a two-fer to get T-Mac if that’s what’s required. If Rip goes, that’s still T-Mac & CB with Stuck coming off the bench. Asking T-Mac to spell Tay while Stuck is in or some combo thereof doesn’t excite me with T-Mac guarding the opposing 3.
On another note, did anyone see K. Dooling laugh at the Magic’s offer of ~4.8M over two years? I don’t know enough about Dooling but shouldn’t this guy be taking it? The pool of money is for FA’s is drying up out there and I can’t see someone giving him a full MLE. With Orlando, he’s got a possibility of at least playing in the finals. The only ones who are going to overpay him are at best borderline playoff teams because no one is going sign him for large chunks of change. Besides, what has this guy done? Sorry for the off topic thread.
If we’re talking a straight up Rip for T-Mac trade, then I can get behind it. There is no way Houston will do such a deal. It is true that T-Mac hasn’t played for a team like Detroit, but if we trade two of our core guys, then Detroit won’t be a team like Detroit.
@MarkButter - I’m in FL and see Dooling all the time. He’s a decent player, kind of a poor man’s Raja Bell. He’s probably sick of being jerked around in Orlando (which has had an unsettled G situation for years) and just wants out. My understanding is the Magic offered 2yrs/$3.8M which is a paycut for Dooling (he was making $3.5M per year). He’s a rotation player on a good team in the right situation — he’s probably right to think $1.9M is a bad offer. Third Quarter Collapse (the Magic blog) has more…
http://www.thirdquartercollapse.com/2008/7/15/571694/d-alessandro-keyon-dooling
MarkButter:Even though I’m not in Florida, I echo joejoejoe’s comments completely. Dooling is decent and that offer is severely low-balling him. He has every right to be scoffing. If Roger Mason, who has played in 185 games in the past five years (not in the league for ‘04-’05 and ‘05-’06) and has generally comparable stats to Dooling, can get $7.5 million over two years … Keyon should pull an Elton Brand and tell them it’s too late. That’s an embarrassing offer, really.
joejoejoe & LawyerBoy: I can see how the “environment” in Orlando regarding PG’s goes. They can’t make up their mind and I think they grossly overpaid J. Nelson so now they’re stuck. If he was getting jerked around by Orlando then there’s definitely some bad blood. I thought it was around 4.8M, not 3.8M…what’s a million or so..my bad
But the market for this guy isn’t so good, he’s a backup for most teams and given how many teams are trying to free salary for 2010, he’s not going to get more than a 2 year deal.
He played for the clips for a short period of time and perhaps that’s why my view of him might be slanted. But I just don’t see any team willing to pay him much more than 2-2.5M a year and unless someone gets hurt he’s a backup at this point. I mean, if you’re a contender with an injury or need a spot backup, would you take Dooling or L. Hunter if he was available? I’m just thinking about the market he’s in. There’s a short blurb somewhere about the Nets not having a backup point behind Harris and that CDR might fill in or by committee. Basically it said the Nets are going to try and out-wait Dooling and the market. Talk about how to bring in a guy with the right attitude.
MarkButter: I like Roger Mason’s game as much as anybody, but if he’s going to get $3.5 million next year, anything below $2.5 next year (should say 3.5, but I’m being realistic since obviously the Spurs preferred Mason to Dooling) is a complete insult to Dooling. The guy is a veteran who is not going to wow you, but he is going to play solid in the minutes given and he can certainly do what Roger Mason does.
Jameer’s contract is a LITTLE pricey, but Rashard Lewis is the one who’s handcuffing them cap-wise. Jameer’s contract doesn’t even escalate to over $7 million until the ‘11-’12 season. Besides, Orlando signed Anthony Johnson, who’s worse and 5.5 years older than Dooling, so good for Keyon for sticking it to them.
Why are people saying, “I wouldn’t do a two for one for TMac?”
It’s a two for two trade. Yes, the second player isn’t a starter but we can probably get another contributer (like Scola).
Is TMac worth 21mil? No. But is Sheed worth 12? I don’t think so.
I’m not saying it’s a slam dunk trade, I just don’t know why someone would be so quick to dismiss it.
kevin s. -
I wrote: ‘“Stuckey needs to show that he makes the other players around him better. He is playing at the point guard position and needs to make players like Amir and Afflalo better.”’
you wrote: “This is a sportswriter cliche, but I don’t know what it means. Granted, Stuckey needs to learn to drive and dish, as well as not pick up his dribble. This would get him more assists. Moreso, it would open up the lane for him, and he would score more with fewer turnovers.”
You pretty much outlined what I meant but I’ll elaborate anyway. I can’t speak for other sports writers but I can tell you what I mean when I said “making other players better” by giving you examples. Michael Jordan made other players better because of his ability to penetrate opposing defences thereby leaving wide open shots for the likes of Steve Kerr a guy unable to create on his own. Or, how about Shaq who demanded a double team and opened lanes for Kobe and the two of them together creating opportunities for other team mates like Glen Rice. But to me the best example of what I’m trying to communicate is Chris Paul. Have you seen how he uses Tyson Chandler? They are a great combination and Chandler never had the success in Chicago that he has had in New Orleans. How does this relate to Stuckey? Stuckey needs to make Amir and Maxey better players. He needs to set them up for easy buckets. He needs to use his talent to create for others. When he does that then I think he’ll be ready (he’ll still need a consistent outside shot though). Chauncey get’s Rip the ball where he wants it. Stuckey will need to do this with Afflalo. That’s called making your team mates better.
ShawninDC, I’ve seen enough flashes of Stuckey doing the things like you’re talking about to have a lot of confidence in him being able to run a team.
I remember a couple games last year where he fed Amir multiple alley oops.
And in the one summer league game I watched he had a lot of passes that led to fouls. These are basically assists.
With more time, he’ll be fine. I’d prefer to have Chauncey here but if there’s a good deal out there that sends him elsewhere, I won’t jump off a bridge.
I’m on the [non-existant] T-Mac bandwagon. He’s an all-world talent and I think some of you guys are splitting hairs over what he can or can’t do in Detroit.
The conversation seems over, but I wanted to at least state (or repeat) my claim. I’m on the “No T-Mac” team, with one exception. First, I should state that McGrady was, at one point, one of my favorite players. That game against San Antonio where McGrady put up 13 points in the last 35 seconds was nothing short of unreal. The guy is an incredible talent. But I don’t want him in Detroit, unless we can get him at Marcus Camby prices…
A few people above, Kevin S. and others, have mentioned that a trade for McGrady would cost Detroit its identity, its “system”– likely two of our core four. Take two away, even if you add an all-star, and we’re a very different team. This is obvious to everybody, but it nullifies the argument that Tracy would fare better in “Detroit’s System”. We’d likely have to change that system to get McGrady.
Second, we all hail Kander as unfallible. What he’s done with McDyess is unreal. But to ship two of our four to pick up a guy whose health could very well be a coin toss for the season is a risk I’d be unwilling to take. I know Kander is capable of a lot, but it is a long, long stretch to assume he can nullify McGrady’s frailty and keep him above 70 games a season.
The “exception” I pointed out above– I’d be fully willing to move Rip + McDyess or Rip + Maxiell for McGrady. IMO, Tay needs to stay put in this trade, and I certainly don’t want McGrady playing the 3. He’s a much safer bet as a 2. If we could pull off one of those options, which I certainly don’t think we can, I’d do it in a “cocaine heartbeat”, to quote my buddy Laughton.
Otherwise, Tracy and his back can stay in Houston with Yao and his toe.
Mike Payne said: “The “exception” I pointed out above– I’d be fully willing to move Rip + McDyess or Rip + Maxiell for McGrady. ”
This is exactly why I doubt that this deal would ever happen. It’s too expensive for Detroit.
McDyess has said he would retire- so any trade involving him would probably never go down and If you move Maxiel where are you going to get energetic play at the four. From Amir? Amir has a different game than Maxiel. I don’t think he has the strength to last in the post. So far in each reasonable scenario Houston comes out ahead in my opinion. Detroit has to give up too much.
LawyerBoy: I’m not saying he might not be worth it to someone, but it’s finding that someone. It all comes down to what teams are looking for and what they’re willing to spend (obvious, I know). But I think that’s how Dooling needs to approach it.
I thnik the signing of Johnson by Orlando shows that. It’s a buyer’s market right now for the most part and I think it is going to stay that way. Memphis will eventually deal either Crittendon or Lowry (or perhaps Conley if they get a stupid offer from someone) and there are a number of others out there hovering around, i.e., Jason Williams..Carlos Arroyo (I think) who bring just as much to the table as does Dooling. I’ve been impressed with Portland’s Bayless and Kopponen and a couple of other rooks in the varioius summer league games so these teams looking at possibly acquiring a veteran may start having second thoughts.
Dooling signs with Orlando and he’s got the possibility of playing quite a bit, because with Nelson he’s either on or off and if he implodes Dooling’s there to start. He’s on one of the premiere teams in the East and perhaps the NBA, he’ll certainly get some exposure playing with Dwight, Lewis, etc. I just think the market dries up faster than he realizes, because if someone really, really needed him, he’d be signed by now.
Finally, it is Lewis’ contract that’s eating a hole in Orlando’s cap, but I also don’t think when you look at paying Jameer 5-6M this year and next and then pay Dooling 3M (if he’d take it) you’ve got ~8-9M for your two point guards, neither of whom I believe takes you to the promise land. Nelson may prove me wrong and I hope he does cause he sounds like a great guy, but if you put CB on that team at 10M/yr and get a serviceable backup for vet’s minimum, Orlando has to be 1A in the east behind Boston (assuming they retain Posey).
Whether he’s worth it or not at 3 or 3.5M/yr will be left to the GMs and it doesn’t appear anyone is knocking on his door right now.
I guess that puts me in the “Open to Tmac as long as Sheed is part of the deal” camp.
Quick Darshan -
you wrote: “ShawninDC, I’ve seen enough flashes of Stuckey doing the things like you’re talking about to have a lot of confidence in him being able to run a team.”
I have every confidence that Stuckey will eventually achieve this. My point though is that I’m not ready to trade Billups, Tay or Rip for TMac until the youngsters demonstrate that they have what it takes to win in the NBA. Until then the vets are good mentors and maintain a good environment for the rooks. They are more valuable in many ways to us than they are to other teams. Therefore we should think carefully about what we are considering. Change for the sake of Change is not a good ideal and sometimes we are attracted to sparkling things because they are new and shiny and we’re willing to part with what we have without considering where it got us. As the saying goes “the grass is always greener….”
Quick Darshan,
I’m not sure where your hatred for Sheed comes from. It seems like you want Sheed to be Tim Duncan or KG, but he’s not. Sheed is Sheed. You might as well get mad at the sun for rising everyday. Sheed is not a number one option. Sheed gets Ts. We knew this, and I bet it didn’t bother you when Sheed was helping us win a title and almost clinch a second (yes I know Horry was his fault. But without Sheed’s D and 4th quarter offense, we don’t come close to that level).
To me the, the fact is that the Pistons won the East twice because of their famous 2 vs. 5 strategy. We had five guys who excelled at different phases of the game. And we had the best coach in the league. For the past three years, we’ve only had four quality starters and two fill-in big men (CWebb and Dice) who both played admirably but were clearly past their prime and should have been coming off the bench.
The number one thing I think we lacked against Cleveland, Boston and Miami was the inside defensive toughness that Ben brought; which is why their guards carved us up like the turkeys we were. I believe that Maxiell can bring that toughness back to us if inserted in the starting lineup. I also believe that our softness was due in a large part to Flip and his refusal to bench players who were clearly dogging it or emphasize D in practice. Chauncey and Sheed play when they want because Flip let them. If LB was there, Sheed’s ass would have benched at various times, and people like Rip wouldn’t be allowed to have temper tantrums that lose us games.
The more I think about it, the more I like this team with Michael Curry at the helm. Say what you want, but Boston was not that much better than us and they won the title easily. We are still not that far away. What we need is more toughness, more grit and a return to the lunch-pail attitude that we rode to prominence. Curry brings those things back in spades. Stuckey and Afflalo are a major upgrade on the bench in terms of both scoring and D- the best tandem we’ve had, including Mike James and Lindsey. Amir and Maxiell bring energy to the frontcourt. Sharpe looks smooth and fluid on the court, he looks like a keeper to me. The only thing we may need is another big man to battle down low, especially with Sheed and Dice aging. To get that, we might consider trading one of our wings. But enough with the doomsday scenarios. This team never lacked for talent; what we needed was an attitude adjustment and an end to the flip the switch mentality. I think Joe D’s press conference alone might have done it, but firing Flip for Curry definitely did. Give the man a chance and talk to me if we aren’t in the Finals next year (and we will be.)
QD,
wanted to make sure you knew it’s all love here, no hate. I love your SN btw, my dad used to say that all the time before a quick stop at the temple.
How about this? A three-way in which we send out Rip and Sheed to the Rockets for T-Mac, who also send a smallish-salary guy to the Clippers, who send us Kaman for Dice.
All three teams could go for this I think. The Rockets need a change; Yao becomes the guy, gets a 4 who plays D and can knock down jumpers, as can the new SG. The Clippers need to turn Kaman into something else, preferably a PF. Dice isn’t great but his contract is done in 2 years (Kaman’s is 4) and they get another player off the Rockets.
So we end up with a 5 of Kaman-Max-Tay-McGrady-Billups. Then sign another big and perhaps a wing who can shoot with the MLE.
Two quick things on T-Mac: he’s 15+ months younger than Rip; he averaged 27.0-8.2-6.8 in the series v Utah, the final game of which he went 40-10-5 with 1 turnover.
Spottie, I find Sheed endlessly frustrating. I want to trade him but at the same time he’s irreplaceable. How many players can defend like he can that also has low post moves? He’s amazingly talented but he’s a tease. This year he was great in the regular season. But, ultimately, I don’t think the guy’s a winner. For some reason, he’s a self-sabotager.
I also think he’s a cancer. Not in the sense that he’s a bad guy. He seems like a great guy that’s a bit guarded. And he seems to be a good teacher. But, his constant whining has infected the team (Rip, in particular). And I think that attitude has turned a team that could have been a media and NBA marketing darling because of their team play and unselfishness, but I think those positive traits are overshadowed by all the whining and complacency the team has showed.
I agree that Flip should have ran a tighter ship with more accountability but, at the same time, Sheed is the highest paid player on the team. And he was paid much more than Flip. So I think it’s incumbent on him to be more of a positive leader.
And I agree that he was an integral part of the Championship run but I wouldn’t say he was any more important than the others (not that you are saying that). He was actually pretty quiet in the Finals except for Game 4.
At some point, you get sick of the drama and want to know exactly what you’re going to get.
Oh and Spottie, I’m in favor of status quo too, but if there’s going to be a trade Sheed is the one I’d like to see go.
Chaunce, Rip and Tay have their faults too but I love having the three of them with Stuckey and Afflalo. I think the latter two will really push the others to play harder.
I think Maxiell will be even better next year but I don’t see Amir pushing Sheed for minutes. And I don’t think that would motivate Sheed to play harder anyway.
Word, I pretty much agree with everything you’ve said, but Sheed is like the pretty girl you date even though you know she’s a b*tch. You put up with it. I’m not sure he’s the reason Rip is a whiner; I feel like Rip has that in him naturally. If that were true, I feel like he would have infected younger guys like Tayshaun or Maxiell by now, whom he has taken under his wing.
I personally think Chauncey is the leading source of our complancency. He is the only player besides Sheed who I think consistently plays below his ability on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor. He’s a great point guard, but either he plays too many minutes or Flip trusted him too much, because half the time the team didn’t look like it was even trying under his direction. And if I see him miss one more pull-up three before setting up the offense, I’m going to break my TV.