I’m still woefully behind from the extra long weekend, so forgive me if you’ve seen a few of these before …
- I mentioned last week how Michael Curry seemed to view Rodney Stuckey as the leader of the second unit. Stuckey confirmed that he’s using the offseason to take on a more vocal role among his teammates. From A. Sherrod Blakely:
But if you look at the way he corrects teammates when they’re not where they’re supposed to be, the way encourages players to try things that might not be according to script, the way he barks instructions — and the way they respond — it’s clear that he came to Las Vegas looking to hone his leadership skills. “That’s one of the main reasons why I’m doing summer league this year,” said Stuckey […] “That’s one of the main things I need to work on, because I know next year, I’m going to have a bigger role than I had this past year.”
- Stuckey missed the second half of Sunday’s game with a toe injury. Relax, it’s not serious and shouldn’t affect his playing time tonight.
- Need4Sheed asks, does Stuckey really make Chauncey Billups expendable?
- Michael Curry said Arron Afflalo will be the backup two-guard, and expects to reward Afflalo with more consistent playing time. From A.S.B.:
“I’ve always said, when Arron plays consistent minutes, he shoots the ball consistently,” Curry said.
The numbers don’t lie. Afflalo averaged 3.7 points and shot 41.1 percent from the field during the regular season, but he was better in both of those categories (5.6 points, 42.3 percent shooting) in the 45 games in which he played 10 or more minutes.
The number don’t lie, but they also don’t say much: 41.1% vs. 42.3% is hardly significant. On the other hand, the fact he shot 20.8% from three-point land versus 46.1% from inside the arc is. If he can learn to stay within his range (or extend it a step or two over the summer), no one will complain about his shooting. He scored 25 against the Clippers on Sunday (boxscore) on 8-10 shooting (9-9 from the stripe) without a single three-point attempt.
- Afflalo said all the right things after his breakout performance Sunday:
“It’s not work to me,” Afflalo said. “I love the game of basketball with all my heart. I could stay in here all day. It’s fun, and there’s nothing I’d rather be doing. Although it’s just one Summer League game, it’s big for me because it lets me know this will pay off at some point, and I’m going to push even harder now.”
A lot of guys just say stuff like that because they know it plays well in the media, but by all accounts is AA is the real deal. Granted, hearing him talk like this is nothing new, but it still makes me smile.
- Alex Acker, who pulled out of the summer league with a bum knee, still hopes to win a roster spot by impressing Curry and Joe Dumars during voluntary workouts in Auburn Hills in August.
- Curry talks about his coaching staff with Keith Langlois.
Last but least, I’d like to congratulate Jason and Erin Gurney, the masterminds behind BallHype who announced the sale of their brainchild today.
I happily served on BallHype’s Board of Advisors from the very beginning so I admit I can’t be completely impartial, but the site has become a daily (if not hourly) destination for me. That won’t change now that the company has been sold — it just means that Jason and Erin now have the resources behind them to continue making the site bigger and better while actually getting paid for their efforts. Congrats!
I was endlessly impressed with Stuckey’s leadership in watching that first game agst the Lakers last Friday. When not on the court, he was always the first up and cheering his teammates on. At one point while on the floor, someone on the Pistons took a charge, Stuckey was standing next to Walter Sharpe after the play and pushed Sharpe forward to have him pick up his teammate still on the floor and kind of show that hey this is the way we do things around here.
I think much of this can be traced back to Chauncey since I’ve seen him do a number of these previously mentioned things in games. I feel like Stuckey is following that lead.
The difference as I see it, is that while Chunacey does this stuff in a leadership role, on the floor as a player, he has a very measured pace to his play that borders on casual and lets the play dictate what he does much of the time. I love Chauncey and there isn’t much wrong with playing that way, but when the guy that plays that style is also your leader you can’t be surprised when his teammates play in the same fashion.
With Stuckey, he goes out on the floor to make things happen and is very aggressive. I can’t begin to express how overjoyed I am that the future of the Pistons rests in the hands of someone who has displayed strong leadership skills and can set a tone of aggression to permeate throughout the entire organization.
On a side note, I’m pretty pumped to see Ramon Sessions play tonight. He hasn’t done well yet in the summer league, but I consider him the biggest sleeper of last year’s draft. Virtually no one has heard his name, yet he held the record for assists in a single regular season game last season (against the Chicago Bulls). I’ve mentioned him a few times here on DBB, I’m quite big on the guy.
Per Need4Sheed, I think Stuckey has the capacity to play as well as Chauncey. Like Chauncey, however, he might be slow to develop.
A lot of players who thrive on quickness and strength have a poorly developed perimeter game. It takes a few seasons for that to develop at an NBA level. If he were a wing, we could afford to wait. But a point guard needs to be a legitimate outside threat, or he won’t be able to score and he’ll turn the ball over.
If we were in a rebuilding mode, I probably wouldn’t mind watching the carnage unfold. But coming off a season in which we were the second best team in the NBA, I’m not ready for the Rodney Stuckey show just yet.
Watching the game now. I can’t tell what’s going on without announcers. Seriously, I can’t enjoy the NBA unless Jeff Van Gundy is talking about his nipple hair.
kevin s.: I’m not trying to be super critical, but the Celtics just won a title with a point guard who possesses no outside game. So, I don’t think a PG NEEDS to be a legitimate outside threat. Conventional wisdom says so, but I don’t think it’s a necessity in the actual application of the theory. That being said, Boston has a “Big 3″, and we don’t.
“kevin s.: I’m not trying to be super critical, but the Celtics just won a title with a point guard who possesses no outside game. ”
Right, and the Spurs won with Avery Johnson, and the Bulls with BJ Armstrong. You can win with a mediocre point guard. But Billups is the biggest part of what we do as a team. Unless teams are offering a Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett, I’m not comfortable with Stuckey starting.
Stuckey is the most exciting and possibly the most gifted member of the zoo crew. If his game has significant flaws such as no outside shot then teams will exploit those flaws. He doesn’t have the luxury of a low post threat or a guard that can penetrate off the dribble (like Jordan -since you mentioned BJ Armstrong-) so he’ll be exposed.
I’m a HUGE Rodney Stuckey fan, and I think he’s a legitimate superstar in the making.
That said, I’m with Kevin here. If we take 2 more seasons to bring Stuckey along all the while handing him a little bit more responsibility as he goes, then when it is time for the Rodney Stuckey show we’re in fantastic shape.
Think about how great he was in the playoffs. He carried us for short stretches. He hit that absolutely monster 3 pointer in the near game 5 comeback. All that with half a season under his belt. Let him run the Zoo Crew for a full year or two and develop as a point guard.
that was a completely ridiculous rebound that Amir just pulled down.
For the record, I’m with Kevin S. and Other Matt, always have been. I feel that Stuckey is a few seasons away from leading this team. In a year or two, when he is moved to start, we’ll have the absolute best backup point guard in the league in Chauncey Billups. If I were Joe, and I’m clearly not, Chauncey would be completely off the trading table, as is Stuckey (and with him, Amir).
Maybe this belongs on the other thread, but did anybody see the Sportscenter report on the Pistons and McGrady? I caught the last 5 seconds of it. Since McCosky said it wouldn’t happen, I’d like to buy some stock in that McGrady will be wearing a Pistons uniform next year.
Other Matt…I was just going to comment on that. Basically Steven A. Smith said the Pistons are actually interested in T-Mac and that T-Mac is happy in Houston but he realizes Detroit is a winning organization and his number one priority is to win, so he’d be open to a deal. There was no direct quotes from the Pistons or T-Mac, just his sources. There was nothing said about Houstons interest in trading him.
I’ve been watching the NBA.com stream, Amir has 8 PF’s in 18 minutes of PT, I am very concerned about him as a role player this year if this trend doesn’t quickly turn around. Afflalo seems to be gaining more and more confidence in his game (LB, as much as it pains me to admit it, you were right, Afflalo is better suited to the 2 vice the 3). I am also impressed with the play of Walter Sharpe, a friend of mine called me when Detroit drafted him and thought we got a potential phenom when we drafted him. Amir now has 9 Personals, Bynum looks like he could develop into a very good Back up guard.
For all of the Israeli Piston fans, I will be working in your country for about a year, anyone interested in watching games send me an email to dj.cole@hotmail.com, I have a Slingbox here at home and can watch live feeds as well as games recorded on my DVR.
After watching two summer league games and comparing it to what I saw last year I’m pretty much convinced that Amir nor Cheick are going to amount to much. Not enough rebounds against inferiour competition. Not enough presence in the paint defensively either. They might be serviceable backups but not much more. I hope I’m wrong though or that the summer league just isn’t the place to show case what they can do in a game.
I can’t decide whether Afflalo and Stuckey’s solid performance thus far outweigh Amir Johnson and Cheikh Samb’s completely mediocre showing. These guys should not be grabbing less rebounds than Aaron Afflalo. I don’t care how energetic Afflalo is, there is 14 feet of person between the two of them and 27 feet of wing span. How they are only grabbing 4 or 3 rebounds is completely uncalled for especially against some of the scrubs they’ve played against thus far.
I’ve only watched about 15 minutes in 1 of our 3 summer league games, but my observation has been that our bigs have been out jumping the pick and roll and playing away from the hoop defensively. I saw a 10 second span tonight where Amir got called for 2 terrible touch fouls that would’ve never been called in the regular season, both 25 feet from the hoop.
But that’s just one man’s relatively uninformed opinion. We’ve all seen what Amir can do in a regular season game, why is everybody fretting over 3 mediocre performances. It’s not like he’s ever lit up the summer league. We shouldn’t be making too much of Stuckey and Afflalo and we should definitely chill out about Amir and Samb.
Amir Johnson vs the Bucks (http://www.nba.com/summerleague2008/games/boxscore.jsp?gameId=1520800019)
min fgm-a 3pm-a ftm-a off def tot
22:54 3-8 0-0 0-2 2 2 4
ast pf st to bs pts
0 9 0 2 3 6
Man, clearly this dominant showing against D-League scrubs means that we would have won it all if only Flip had played him more in the playoffs against Boston.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3491156
Camby to the Clippers for just a second round pick. Are the Nuggets trying to clear payroll?
Are the Clips going to play him at the 4? And have Kaman man the 5?
That’s kinda ridiculous. What is Denver’s plan there? Are they counting on Nene, or are they just hard up for cash?
As far as Amir goes, summer league refs take advantage of the liberties afforded them by the lack of foul outs and the corollary lack of compalints about calls. He has shot the ball well, and played some solid defense.
Samb has looked more out of sorts. The 3-12 episode was troubling, and there hasn’t been much to offset that. But we are not counting on him to contribute this year, so why worry.
Way to not have cap space, Joe. I’m not going to lampoon our savior for a move that he could’ve never anticipated, but the Clips get Camby for a 2nd rounder? Um, wow. The Clippers are starting to look like a lock for the playoffs now with the possibility of winning a series. They are for sure going to get me to pluck down a serious chunk of my money to go see them this season. Period.
I find that trade to be absolute bullshit, to be honest.
A former defensive player of the year for some scrap heap BS pick.
Unless they flip Camby into something else, I hope both Camby and Baron Davis have years where they remember that they are brittle “stars”.
By no means is Camby the answer for Detroit, but this trade on top of Kurt Thomas for a ridiculous amount of trades, Phoenix selling draft picks, the Hornets selling draft picks… something needs to be worked out. Of course, teams can trade whoever they want to trade as long as both sides agree… luckily those trades weren’t accepted in this year’s DBB Fantasy Basketball league, because they would’ve been vetoed!
The cap rules have made the NBA a year-round sport. There is no way they change the rules at this point, and I don’t think I’d want them to do so.
I don’t see the Clips in the playoffs this year. They swapped players of comparable value (Davis-Maggette) and added a center in his mid-30s. I think 36 wins is more like it.
A bit of fantasy analysis: stay away from Chris Kaman… Unless he gets traded.
Kevin S., it probably depends on how Thornton develops this year and if Kaman can be the low post threat he was last year.
I oddly think this team has a better shot than if Brand had stayed. I didn’t think that Baron and Brand would play well together because Baron is so shot happy.
With this lineup, Baron is the unquestioned first option.
Of course, so when in doubt, it’s best to bet on them not making the playoffs.
The Clippers are still not a playoff team, but now might have a better shot than the Warriors…
Camby leaving may open up Denver to a trade now…
So one of these two players, Kaman or Camby, is expected to start as a PF? One of these two players is expected to be an offensive threat? Obviously, Camby is null on the offensive end. Kaman is mild at best– in nearly 38 minutes per game, Kaman only scored 6 field goals per on 48% shooting.
They’ve got two centers now, neither with the skill sit of a 4. IMO, it is a lot easier for a tall 4 to play the 5 than it is a 5 to moonlight as a 4.
If I were a gambling man, I’d put my money on Kaman wearing a different uniform next season… and the Clippers need a solid shooting guard and a power forward more than they need a second center.
Thornton is almost 25. I don’t think we’ll see much development this year, though he still might score a fair amount, given the Clippers’ paucity of options.
Golden State finished 25 games ahead of the Clippers last year. Marcus Camby isn’t that kind of difference maker.
Maybe this could open up Chris Kaman talks to the Pistons.
I could see Camby having trouble playing the 4 just like Big Ben had trouble adjusting to it in Cleveland. There is a lot of small/quick PFs with range in the league now. Camby’s gonna have to play defense much farther away from the basket than he’s gotten used to in the past decade or more.
I think I might have been one of the first people to make a case for Kaman after the Boston series. My main arguements were that he was young, a productive rebounder, a big body, & that we wouldn’t have to give up too much to get him. After the trade yesterday he probably just became less expensive. If the Clippers would take just Sheed (or Sheed and loose change) then I think it would make both teams happy. The Pistons get a big, young center than can be the inside banger that they want and send away the guy most associated with the complaincancy (he’s still my favorite Piston) they want to get rid of.
The Clipper would be happy for three reasons: 1)they would be better this season with Sheed teamed up with Camby than Kaman; as is they might hope to be an 8th seed and 1st round fodder 2)they would have over $20 million in cap space for the summer of mega-star free agents (aka 2010) after Sheed & Camby go off the books in successive years 3)THEY ARE CHEAP BASTARDS- they could have thrown together a long term deal starting around $12 million for one of the young restricted FAs but decided instead to spend $2 million less and go for future cap space (which they would have even more of if they traded for Sheed.
Could the Camby deal mean Nick Fazekas is available? Get on the phone Joe!
I doubt Detroit will get a favorable trade offer from anyone. I’m suspecting that teams are thinking that Joe D is desperate and will make lateral moves or trade for junk. When Joe D said he was open for business he sort of reduced his leverage. Now teams are less inclined to make their best offer. So I’m expecting us to go into training camp with the team we have now. And frankly I’m happy with that. I like Stuckey, Afflalo and Sharpe and don’t want to see any of them sat at the end of the bench because of some new “star” that is brought in. I’d also like to know if there is any hope of Amir improving and eventually contributing. This might be our best hope for improvement in the end; to get a coach who stresses defense and is willing to play the young guys especially when the vets aren’t playing well.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens with the restricted free agents like Okafor, Igoudala, J. Smith, Ellis, Biedrins, and Childress now that no team besides Memphis (who from all indications has no interest in spending money this summer) has big money left to spend.
Let’s hope Atlanta low balls J. Smith with an offer, he gets pissed and wants to leave, and we can work out a sign and trade for him.
I wouldn’t be upset to see this rotation next year:
“There’s 144 total minutes between the 1, 2, and 3 positions, so Rip, CB, Tay, and Stuck could all play 30-32 minutes per game and that would leave 15-20 for Afflalo.” (from “Jim” on another thread)
In the front court, have Sheed, Dyess, Maxiell, Amir play an even 24 minutes each.
This may not win the title next year, but it keeps the team competitive while staying financially flexible to improve the year after(Sheed comes off the books, no bad contracts coming via trade).
I always thought that Dumars would prefer to pull off any big deal about the same as the Rasheed Wallace deal that brought him to Detroit - mid-season in a buyer’s market. It’s not like the Pistons need help making the playoffs.
Kaman averaged 16 ppg and 13 rpg.
He can play the #4 without a problem because he has a midrange jump shot.
The main scorers for the Clippers will be Davis, Thorton and E. Gordon. They don’t need a lot of points from Kaman and Camby, just rebounds and defense.
Kaman and Camby last year combined averaged 26 rebounds per game, and 6.5 blocks per game more than any other 2 man pair on any other team in the NBA.
I’d take Camby or Dice (although I love his toughness and desire) but Camby defensively bring the shot blocking and maybe protects the basket more. We couldn’t have worked something out and got Camby into our mix? A second round pick is nothing for Camby. I’m just saying. He’s not the savior for any team but for a second round pick I wouldn’t mind having Camby. (I’m not sure what his salary is though). If its outrageous then never mind. I need to see more from Amir and Samb. They don’t seem to be doing shit in Vegas and Amir doesn’t look any bigger to me. But thinking back to that Lakers game last year in L.A. when Amir and Samb blocked everything in sight and made Bynum look like a lil’ *itch for about 5-7 mins of play still has me salavating for more man.
From reading the comments here, I just can’t figure out what Amir has done to be annointed “untouchable” status as far as concern/[slight criticism]. He and Samb aren’t doing too much again summer league scrubs (maybe 3-4 rebs, and 8-9 pts). Are you kidding me? If he’s the second coming and people are saying he should play 25 mins and some even saying start him, based on what guys? This cat can’t make a strong showing in the summer league? I’m not saying dial 911 and panic. I’m just saying considering many (seems like most) in DBB have annointed him the second coming of Shawn Kemp, Kevin Garnette and Jermain O’neal all rolled into one, I think you should want a return on your emotional investment. Like him looking damn good in the summer league. Please stop making excuses. I am not by farrrrrr an Amir hater at all, but I just don’t understand. If he’s not doing much in summer league, even if you are the biggest Amir fan, just admit it and say “yeah, I expected a little more from him against inferior competition, but lets not panic yet folks”. But to just completely blow off his and Samb’s subpar 3 games (ok, don’t say “its just 3 games”, the damn LVSL is only about 5-6 games right)is ridiculous. Just one fans opinion. I know I pissed off the Amir Nation, I better put my bullet proof vest on now. Helppppppp, someone hide me!!!
The nuggets traded Camby strictly for salary cap, that’s why the cheap price as the Clips could absorb his salary outright. AI comes off the books this year for Denver, they let Najerda go. You look at Nene, (25), Anthony (23), Klienas (23) and JR Smith (22) there’s a good foundation there if Nene stays healthy and they pick up a veteran and some bench filler. Camby is 35 and it’s a matter of time before he breaks down again (after 2 healthy years).
My only problem trading sheed for Kaman is that dyess will have to start at the 4 and be worn out. But I do like what Kamam can bring to the defensive side and his offense is good. Someone posted his 16ppg/13rpg from 07/08. I think alot of his points were due to not having anyone else as Brand was hurt.
Finally, I’d rather give up Amir than Max in any trade.
Camby makes $10 mil, which is ridiculous for someone at his age with his injury history, and particularly ridiculous with a luxury tax add on.
“If he’s the second coming and people are saying he should play 25 mins and some even saying start him, based on what guys? This cat can’t make a strong showing in the summer league?”
But he has made a strong showing in the NBA, which is obviously more important. I don’t think he is the second coming, but I think he will be a very good starting PF. He hasn’t been awful in summer league, either. I can’t say I expect too much from him there given the way the refs are blowing the whistle.
I wouldn’t use the summer league to judge Amir.
I like his aggressiveness.
He will rebound once the regular season starts. He always has and will only get better. He averaged close to 12 rebounds per 36 minutes last year, He has gotten bigger and his rebound number will only go up.
I think he will always be a high foul guy. His career average is about 5.5 fouls per 36 minutes. I will be happy if we can get 20 minutes a game from him this year.
I liked the fact that he tried at least a couple of dribble drive moves to the basket.
One one he was called for an offensive foul, which could have gone either way. On the other he was tackled on his way to the basket and got to the free throw line.
He will be just fine and only get better as his career minutes go up.
P.S.
I believe that Boozer fouled out of about a half dozen games during the regular season.
@E-Double:
“But to just completely blow off his and Samb’s subpar 3 games”
I don’t think anyone is blowing off Amir’s poor play. Personally, I don’t think Summer League dominance translates to regular NBA PT, and I’ll take Amir’s absence with a grain of salt. Amir is playing poorly, but I’m not losing confidence in the kid.
@Mike:
“Kaman and Camby last year combined averaged 26 rebounds per game, and 6.5 blocks per game more than any other 2 man pair on any other team in the NBA.”
You can’t expect that two huge rebounders will maintain their numbers when you play them next to eachother. As Kevin S. said above, “A bit of fantasy analysis: stay away from Chris Kaman… Unless he gets traded.”
They’re going to cannibalize eachother’s numbers if they play together. You can’t add their past performance together, it just doesn’t work like that.
@Mike:
“Kaman averaged 16 ppg and 13 rpg.
He can play the #4 without a problem because he has a midrange jump shot.”
Not really, he’s efficient from 17 feet but takes so few shots from that region that you can’t guarantee he can scale that performance. He’s been a bigger player in the post, where nearly all of his baskets came from. You can’t put a mediocre offensive player (Kaman) next to a weak offensive player (Camby) and expect any level of reliability on offense from your 4 and 5. It puts a whole lot of pressure on the other players, one of whom is an injury prone PG.
On defense, smaller teams will give the clips a lot of problems if they play Kaman at the 4. Kaman, who is oversized and slow for the 4 position, would be the weakest link in the Clip’s front court defense.
I used to have Amir love, but started to become more and more critical of him as last season wore on. Now, with his summer league showing, I think I’m officially off the Amir bandwagon. If he can prove me wrong, awesome — some of the hype will have been worth it — but right now I’m just hoping for some energy, hustle, and very few mistakes.
True that Kaman and Camby won’t maintain the same numbers but the point is that the Clippers will probably dominate on the defensive end and glass against most teams.
As far as playing small ball against them, remember that zone defense is allowed in the NBA, so small ball will have effective 3 point shooting not penetrating in the paint. Almost all teams have trouble defending a team that gets hot shooting 3s so I don’t think that that is enough to say that the Clippers won’t be significantly better on defense with Kaman and Camby.
It could be that the Clippers will play Kaman at the #5 on offense and Camby more away from the basket. Camby can make jump shots from the free throw line and elbow. Besides the Clippers would not be looking for Camby to Score. He would play more of Big Ben role for them, where his main benefit would be on defense.
If you are a Clipper fan than this trade was good for them given that they had cap space and gave up nothing but salary to get Camby.
Camby has two years left on his contract which is a very reasonable $8 million a year.
The Clippers are hoping that Jordan can replace him in 3 years. Only time will tell if Jordan’s game can develop to anywhere near the level of his size including wing span, strength and athleticism, all of which are at the top of the charts.
I pray Amir proves me slight concern wrong. I’m not giving up on the guy by farrrrrr but I just haven’t fully sipped the cool-aid as some others have. I just don’t see the hype for him as second coming. I definitely see a productive energy guy off the bench. I just haven’t see the glimpses that others seem to have noticed as far as annointing him as a future all star and the second coming of Jesus. Not Stuckey on the other hand, I completely undestand the hype. I just hope you guys are right and given the proper minutes he can give us the same production as Aldridge gave Portland last year. (as one DBB regular said a few weeks back, don’t remember who). Lets go Pistons. I hope AA keeps it up. He looks good.
my slight concern, that is.
I still think that Amir has all-star potential at some point. I think it will depend on the development of his offense and his reducing his regular season foul rate to from about 6.5 per 36 minutes to about 4 or less per 36 minutes.
I doubled checked his foul rate and it was 6.6 per 36 minutes last year and not 5.5. Boozer’s was 3.7 per 36.
Whether Amir can reduce his foul rate remains to be seen. Hopefully with playing time he will be able to reduce it to where it is no longer a problem.
If he can then I still like his upside. If he can’t then I would agree that he most likely won’t be more than a back end of the bench type.
The problem isn’t Amir, it’s the excessive hype he’s been given.
I don’t see him becoming an All-Star like others do, but I’m happy with his production in comparison to his contract.
This year, I think he’ll earn his 3.67mil paycheck with his energy, rebounding and shot-blocking.
I totallt agree QD. Hype be damned.
Note: CJ Miles is a no-show at the Jazz equivalent of the Vegas League (the Rocky Mountain Jamboree or some such nonsense). Jerry Sloan is not happy which makes me happy and CJ Miles cost less.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700243223,00.html
@E-Double:
“I just hope you guys are right and given the proper minutes he can give us the same production as Aldridge gave Portland last year. (as one DBB regular said a few weeks back, don’t remember who).”
That would have been yours truly, in addition to a few others (Kevin S. as well).
@all:
As E-Double recalled, there are a few of us that believe Amir is capable of performing quite similar to Aldridge, possibly better. But all this hyperbole about Amir supporters “sipping kool-aid”, etc is a little misplaced. Speaking for those of us here who are big on Amir, the guiding factor has a lot more to do with fact than it does faith.
Amir’s efficiency ratings, PER and other combined stat ratings are through the roof. They’re positively brighter than most any prospect in the NBA.
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/meet-amir-johnson/
Given the right, regular minutes, given the right involvement in playmaking, Amir has the documented potential to perform as a solid starter, if not an all star in this league.
Three shabby summer league games (hell, even six) have a whole lot less of a bearing on potential than regular season performance and the related stats.
I’d be willing to concede that his D-League performance should be ignored just like the summer league performance. When it comes down to it, what he has done in limited time in the NBA is statistically unreal, and given a little gas that flame is going to explode.
@Mike:
“I think it will depend on the development of his offense and his reducing his regular season foul rate to from about 6.5 per 36 minutes to about 4 or less per 36 minutes.”
I think Amir’s foul related to coaching and playing time– and if you change those two, his foul rate will drop accordingly.
If I’m coaching the Pistons and I have a 6′11″ energy player that is the 4th or 5th front court big option, I’m going to use him to foul. No layups, no dunks. I’d want more energy than poise, more physicality than finesse. Besides, a guy that will only average 12 minutes per game doesn’t need to worry about fouling out.
Give him a more serious role, give him more playing time– and he’ll naturally foul less. Here’s what I think it would take to lower Amir’s foul rate:
“Hey Amir, I’ll give you 20mpg if you can keep your fouls down.”
From Si.com
“The Hawks would likely raise the five-year, $45 million offer that Smith turned down last summer, but money will not be the only factor in the 22-year-old power forward’s returning to Atlanta. As I reported in Sports Illustrated during last season, league sources said Smith would not be interested in returning to the Hawks if the team retained coach Mike Woodson, who recently signed a two-year extension. The two have butted heads frequently in Smith’s four seasons, and sources said the relationship is beyond repair. With a dearth of offers, Smith may change his tune, but having a volatile relationship on such a young team may not be in the Hawks’ best interests.
A more appealing, but less plausible scenario could be for Smith to sign the one-year qualifying offer with Atlanta and try his luck in free agency next season. But after putting up staggering numbers last season (17.2 points, 6.2 rebounds and 2.8 blocks per game), Smith will likely be looking for the security of a long-term deal.”
I’ve been pushing for a sign and trade for J. Smith and now that no team has any cap space left I think it’s possible. He doesn’t like Woodson and Woodson has been around all of our core group so I would think there would be some mutual interest to look at trade options.
One thing about Amir that I just read which could explain his high foul rate is that on defense he is so often where the ball is.
He presses at the base line after we score. He runs down lose balls. He hedges on defense. In other words, he is all over the court wherever the ball is. This would certainly add to someone’s foul rate.
Maybe as he gets more minutes MC will find a way to temper Amir’s activity on defense without reducing his effectiveness by much.
———————————————
Smith might be available for Sheed on a sign and trade. I don’t know if Joe D. is interested in this or not.
From everything I have read, Smith really doesn’t want to play for Woody who just got a two year contract extension. If Smith winds up taking the Hawks QO most likely he will leave as a free agent after this if Woody is still there.
So from the Hawks perspective is one year of Sheed, rumors are that he might retire after this coming year, better than one year of Smith.
From our perspective can we use a guy like Smith who shoots under 30% from more than 5 feet from the basket and is only an average rebounder for a PF, about 8.5 per 36 minutes? Smith doesn’t shoot well enough from more than 5 feet or handle the ball well enough to play the #3.
ESPN.com is reporting Posey is going to the Hornets for a 4 year deal.
If we only have to give up one starter (and I don’t care who it is) for Josh Smith, we win the championship. This year. Put him at the 3 or the 4. He doesn’t need to handle, but he can well enough. He’s not that terrible of a shooter– I know regular season stats say so, but did anybody else watch the first round of the playoffs? He was dropping the mid-range pretty consistently, took and made clutch shots, and pretty much owned whoever the Celts threw at him, on offense *and* defense. And I’ve said this before…
HE’S 22 YEARS OLD. TWENTY. TWO.
He’s got at least 10 years of peak basketball left in him, is NO WHERE NEAR his potential, and is already putting up staggering defensive statistics– which as a Pistons fan should be the stats that matter most. He’s the youngest player ever to reach 500 blocks, he was only player in the league to be in the top 10 in steals and blocks this year (and shared the distinction with only Shawn Marion and Ben Wallace the year before), had a higher efficiency rating than ANYBODY on our current roster (2 full points better than C-Bill), and on top of all that, is going to give you a “pedestrian” 18 ppg, 9 rpg, and 3.5 apg.
He takes us over the top. Right now.
“ESPN.com is reporting Posey is going to the Hornets for a 4 year deal”
That’s huge for us and everybody else in the East who is a legitimate contender.
About my Josh Smith post:
“If we only have to give up one starter…”
I’m obviously assuming we throw in other pieces to sweeten the deal– Amir, Max, Dice, AA, or picks– I don’t care, whatever it takes. It’s STILL bargain. And God only knows how good we’d be if we could somehow pull in Beidrins too…
Regarding Josh Smith
I wonder why Smith and Woody don’t get along.
Does anyone here know.
I am sure that Joe D. knows.
Jim: I saw that too. ~$25M/4 yrs. I like the Hornets and they are up and coming but I just don’t think he’s worth that. At that price, I’m glad Joe D. didn’t do anything. On the other hand, I don’t think this puts the Hornets over the top, particularly since he’s already 31 and most teams will be ready for them this year.
I think he may be worth that for that team, their salary is on the increase anyways, and he is the kobe stopper now. Peja isnt getting any younger and he will help solidify that spot if Peja does get hurt….besides hes in west now, i think that hurts boston a lot and maybe warrants less action in terms of trades on our part. An older Stuckey, Amir, Max and others may put us over the top. I still believe we were the second best team last year.
That Hornets deal is a classic MLE bomb. Too much money. Too many years. All for a player whose accomplishments were overhyped because his team performed well in the playoffs.
Jim, to which efficiency rating are you referring? ESPN’s has Josh Smith well below Chauncey. I would be shocked if we could get Smith for one core player, and he isn’t worth two.
“Jim, to which efficiency rating are you referring?”
I think you meant Joel…he’s the one who said that.
I wouldn’t say Posey’s accomplishments were overhyped. He played great in the playoffs. But he was playing for a contract. Now that he’s got it, ask Pat Riley how in shape he’ll be next year.
Q-Darshan; Agree wholeheartedly. He’ll be 35 when this contract expires and, as you said Pat R. knows, doesn’t appear to be a workout warrior. He played critical parts in two chip runs but this is more than the MLE, which I think was ~5.8M, so he’s getting a bit more. An article said the hornets traded their first round pick away to free up some money and they needed it to help fill in their bench. But at this, what else is left.
I do think AJ Boggs is correct: this is the back up plan should Peja get hurt, which is a smart move. But we’re still back to a short bench if that happens and with no cash to fill in the hole.
It does change Boston dramatically though. However, now I’m worried that they might find someone to do a sign and trade. Plus, I think T. Lue was looking at them and that frees up more cash…not that I’m worried about Lue.
tyron lue is my favorite wnba player.
i’m getting a little concerned about amir’s development. seems like he’s regressed. and at $4 million per year, i’d like to see some expansion in his game. i need more than a baby hook and dunk at that price.
at this point, i’d love for joe to make a move on iguodala. i’d negotiate a sign-and-trade involving rip and amir for iggy. rip gets to go home to philly, amir gets a team that lets him get up and down the court and we get a young, incredibly athletic, incredibly gifted player who can start at the 2 and shift easily to the 3 with his 6-11 wingspan. he’s a ridiculous defender. you know those small forwards that bully through tayshaun, namely pierce and lebron? well they have a much tougher time pushing thru iguodala. it would pretty much eliminate all that friggin’ dribble penatration.
of course i’d make the same deal for josh smith. i imagine both of those rfas are looking for the same sort of payday.
Nice article on Prince in Kentucky
Prince holds court at Lexington camp
By Mark Maloney
mmaloney@herald-leader.com
Before he helps Team USA take on the world, Tayshaun Prince is in Lexington to take on some kids.
The Olympic basketball player out of the University of Kentucky will be at the Kentucky Basketball Academy through Friday, overseeing his second annual camp.
A total of 275 campers are split into two divisions: 7-to-11 years old and 12-to-18. Prince has a staff of 28 to run the three-day camp…
The last paragraph is interesting.
”A lot of people don’t get the opportunity to experience winning an NBA championship, getting to the finals. Those type of things don’t come without hard work. I thought my whole team did a good job of that throughout my career there. Like I said, I think we should stand pat because the coach that we have (Michael Curry), he’s a very experienced guy even though this is his first year of coaching. He’s a very experienced guy. He’s been with us. He’s played with us — our core group of guys — and I think it would help out tremendously by having him as our coach, knowing what to expect from him. He knows what to expect from us.“
—————————–
I will go along with the standing pat idea.
http://www.kentucky.com/232/story/463123.html
MP: I don’t tend to rag on anyone in general around here for using statistics in an argument nor do I tend to rag on you ever, but Amir’s time on the floor in the NBA has almost entirely been against NBDL quality players in the 4th quarter of games with an already determined outcome. I can’t dunk (I’m 5′8), but I sure can make 99 out 100 layups on any court in front of any amount of people if I’m not at all guarded (the impetus for countless Amir rim-rattling jams) or the guy checking me doesn’t give a damn. He still looks confused as hell in every summer league possession when he’s bodied up on offense. He doesn’t seem to have nearly any confidence or the type of independent killer instinct that Stuckey (and most Pistons) has. He wavers, plain and simple. And I think that’s a huge problem.
Until Amir goes up against the Garnetts (who made Amir his bitch when Amir did check him), Boozers, Stoudemires, etc. on offense and defense night after night, he has done nothing that is at all indicative about what he can accomplish. His PER means NOTHING. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.
He may be worthwhile; he may be worthless. But you can throw out his PER for now. I have.
Re: Posey & the Hornets
Kevin: Classic MLE bomb? James Posey will be making just over the MLE for the next 4 years. As I’m very sure you know already, the MLE is the AVERAGE NBA salary. This guy, for his defense and three-ball daggers in the Finals isn’t worth giving it a shot for four years at approximately the average league contract (his demands, not the Hornets ultimate wishes)? I’m not saying it’s the best contract in the NBA, but an automatic bomb? Really? It’s that much worse than the next 2 years/$12.5 million they’re giving Mike James (who’s playing at a position where the starter is CHRIS PAUL)? James averaged 9 minutes in the games he even played in last year upon being traded to New Orleans. Posey will make what Mo Pete makes for the next three years (about $18.5 million total). If you’re going to rail against the Posey signing, why not just bash Jeff Bower for allowing those two contracts on his roster as well? Anthony J. Boggs put it brilliantly, Peja insurance and damnit if we haven’t already seen that he’s a Kobe stopper. At that price? It’s simply not a bomb.
QD, MarkButter, Kevin S. etc.: Riley was bitching left and right about his weight. Come on. I’m not saying it’s bad for a coach to want his players to be more in shape, but really, Riles? AI would say “We’re talking about practice?” Gonna make a public mess out of him gaining weight but not necessarily playing worse? It’s not like the guy’s numbers took a giant nosedive the season after they won the title (see: Walker, Antoine). Riles just chewed his ass out in public for WEIGHT GAIN. The guys numbers have been pretty consistent his last four seasons. That whole incident was absurd. Riley is out of touch, and at least he’s vacated his spot on the bench.
I would’ve loved to have Posey, despite him being one of the most annoying players in the league. He would be a dream backup for Prince with his shooting, defense and annoying mouth guard. He will bring toughness to the Hornets.
I want T-Mac or Carmelo. I don’t think this team has enough juice left to win a title standing pat while other teams have made moves to get better. Philly already pushed us to 6, and now they have a legit post player! Chauncey, Sheed and Dyess are aging as we speak, and I believe a move must be made for the future of the franchise. This team lost its heart and fire with the departure of Ben Wallace, and its discipline with the departure of Larry Brown. Curry is a good move, but we need a go-to guy now that for three years straight this team has shown that they do not have that one guy that can put the team on his back. Chauncey and Rip are good, but not great. Sheed is great when he feels like it, which I believe was two years ago against the Bulls for one game. Dyess is the only guy who plays his butt off every night, I was at game 4 against Boston, and he was the only reason we won. We need T-mac, a hungry and talented player who is willing to sacrifice his numbers to win. It worked in Boston and it can certainly work here. I hope Joe makes it happen.
@LawyerBoy:
Let me fix that for you:
“Until [Amir gets playing time] his [any meta-stat available] means NOTHING. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.”
I’m confident that there is not a single Amir supporter here who thinks his STATS are DESTINY (I’m capitalizing those words just like you capitalized the word NOTHING. it has a cool effect, doesn’t it!). Anyone who does has another thing COMING. (now I’m just emphasizing random words kind of LIKE stephen A smith DOES)
Here’s where we disagree:
“but Amir’s time on the floor in the NBA has almost entirely been against NBDL quality players in the 4th quarter of games with an already determined outcome.”
Remember when he blocked Shaq and then Shaq got a flagrant for throwing Amir to the floor? Aside from your argument about Amir only playing scrubs being silly, ill informed even, I’ll go so far as to humor you and suggest that Amir only played NDBL quality talent in the NBA.
You’re making a statistical argument here about Amir’s level of competition. I clearly do not have the time, but I implore you to take some of your free time and compare Amir’s PER and other meta-stats against all other NBA players who averaged between 8 and 15 minutes per game. Afterward, I’d implore you to take players like Jermaine O’neal and do the same analysis in the early years of their career.
“He still looks confused as hell in every summer league possession when he’s bodied up on offense.”
Amir could miss every single shot he takes for the rest of the summer league and I wouldn’t think twice about my support of him. As I said above, I’ll disregard his NBDL performance as well.
Summer League stats are more than skewed, they’re ridiculous. However, you can’t knock “but PER sucks” and then claim “but Summer League” in the next sentence”.
LB: If I recall correctly, Riley was on Antoine Walker for weight gain and was on Posey for being out of shape.
MP,
“Summer League stats are more than skewed, they’re ridiculous. However, you can’t knock “but PER sucks” and then claim “but Summer League” in the next sentence”.”
Yes I can, I did there and I’ll continue to do so. The fact that he’s currently playing in summer league has nothing to do with the logic behind my viewpoint that Amir possesses a permanent look of sheer confusion on his face every time I’ve seen him in half-court offense, be it in the NBA regular season or Summer League. That’s not an objective statistical analysis, that’s anecdotal evidence seen through my eyes. Challenge the validity of the evidence (what I’m seeing with my eyes) because I may be wrong in my judgment, not my right to assert it while dismissing summer league, NBDL or mop up minutes stats. So, I call BS on your claim and I win. I’ve never seen Amir play in the NBDL, but he must be doing something right there.
Regarding the Shaq thing: Worthy counterpoint to my Garnett claim that I had forgotten, though I’d rather just strike Garnett owning Amir and Amir owning Shaq from the record and say, for the most part, when the dude is on offense, he looks to me like Kendrick Perkins would if you asked him to spell the word “constituency” ie: look of complete uncertainty.
QD: What’s the difference exactly?
@LB:
“Yes I can, I did there and I’ll continue to do so”
Nono, you’re welcome to do so all you want. Do it up and down the proverbial DBB court if you’d like. Don’t expect me to watch you dribble, though…
“Challenge the validity of the evidence (what I’m seeing with my eyes) because I may be wrong in my judgment, not my right to assert it while dismissing summer league, NBDL or mop up minutes stats. So, I call BS on your claim and I win.”
So– what’s your reason for even countering if you’re admitting that your point is baseless and stubborn?
“though I’d rather just strike Garnett owning Amir and Amir owning Shaq from the record”
This is 100% the whole reason why I’m ignoring Amir ever putting up solid numbers in the D-League. Only because I’m that confident in his regular season performance. I won’t use the NDBL numbers to help my claim.
You’re my boy, LB. I have to admit I’ve had a few beers and maybe I’m having trouble condensing the facts from the vapor of nuance… I don’t mean to sound a prick, I just have trouble typing when one hand is busy scratching my head. Point being– please elucidate!
Hollinger rips the Hornets signing of Posey on ESPN.com. Basically, he brings up the point about his age, which you guys mentioned. Hollinger also mentions that Posey takes a greater percentage of shots from downtown than any non-guard. Also, Posey is a small forward that can play power forward in small-ball situations. The Hornets already have one of those in Julian Wright (whom I am a big fan of). Basically, Hollinger says that the Hornets needed help at shooting guard or big man, and the Posey signing did neither. I agree. This is a dumb signing, which stinks because I want to see Chris Paul succeed.
LB: Well, both being overweight and out of shape are bad in the middle of the season. Would you accept this from a Piston player?
How can you try to make Riley look like the bad guy there? Didn’t he win a championship six months before that? You can hardly say he’d lost it as a coach. His players got complacent, he tried to light a fire under them, and when that didn’t work he got rid of them.
LB: I don’t think that the arguement of “ave NBA salary” so it can’t be that bad of a contract is valid. going back to our Dooling example, he’d only be making half of the NBA salary and we probably can find a boatload of players, Camby at 2 1/2 times the NBA salary, etc. I go thru this every year with employees.. you’re going to get a 3% raise while someone else is going to get 5%, but given the base salary each ends up making the same extra 2k this year.
Is Posey an “ave” NBA player? I don’t know but what and where was he at prior to playing with Miami & Bos? It seems to me he’s always been on the “cusp of becoming an extraordinary NBA player” tag. And though I can’t provide specific examples, I’m sure that it’s been said several times about him. Now at 31, he’s who he’s gonna be. I’m not taking anything away from his hard work and what not, but he was fortunate to play where he did. Did he sign “short” with Boston in order to have a chance at a ring? Undoubtedly. But something tells me it wasn’t as short as one would beleive. If I remember correctly, he signed late with Bos last summer. If there was a burning desire for his skills, he’d have been gone.
As to Riles overweight, out of shape? We all know about Riles’ practices and what he demands of his players. I’m sure it was also personalities involved to some extent not to mention the effort required to repeat. I see Riles as the task master in Mia, Garnett in Bos and who will fill that role in NO? CP3 doesn’t strike me as one to get into his face. West? Chandler? Scott perhaps, but then we see how Posey plays when he’s pouting. I just don’t see how a guy who came in and hit big shots in the spotlight helps solve the daily hole the Hornets have at the 2 & 4/5. And at 6+M/yr for 4 years its severly hamstrings their payroll.
People keep referring to him as a Kobe (or fill in the blank) stopper. OK. But that’s alot of change for a guy who you’ll face 3 times a year excl’g playoffs.
Even with Miami Posey got his minutes stolen from him from Kapono and Beefcakes Walker because of his streaky shooting, the same thing he’s never been able to make it with any team before. The guy’s on his seventh team and hasn’t gotten 30 minutes/game in five years (read: hasn’t been able to earn the PT). It could end up working for NO, but it’s not often that overpaying for role players works in this league (especially for long-term deals).
Improving forward Amir Johnson showing growth, doing ‘very well’ this summer
BY VINCE ELLIS • FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER • July 17, 2008
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NBA summer leagues are a proving ground for young players trying to crack the rotation.
Advertisement
Play well and management can’t wait to get a player to training camp to see what he can do against veterans.
Play not so well and the thinking is the kid can use more seasoning at the end of the bench.
The former is the case with the Pistons’ Amir Johnson, who is entering his fourth NBA season. After three games in the Las Vegas summer league, it appears the 6-foot-9 forward with long arms and great athleticism might finally earn significant minutes in the fall after showing energy and a strong willingness to play defense.
“He’s doing very well,” Pistons vice president of basketball operations Scott Perry said Tuesday. “He’s playing with great energy, and he’s doing a very good job on the defensive end.
“He is continuing to show growth in his play.”
Johnson, 21, is averaging nine points and 4.3 rebounds, but he has impressed with a defensive presence in defending the pick-and-roll and getting his hands on loose balls. He has also been efficient at the offensive end, shooting 11-for-19 (58%).
“He can get off the floor and rebound out of his area,” Perry said. “It’s just a part of the learning curve that comes with all players.”
Johnson has struggled with fouls — he committed nine (10 are allowed) in the team’s loss to the Bucks on Tuesday night.
Johnson appeared in 62 games in the regular season — two years after he was selected in the second round as a raw but talented high-schooler out of Westchester, Calif.
But the Pistons (2-1 in summer-league play) have been patient and last summer re-signed him through the 2009-10 season. And there would appear to be an opening for a young frontline player with size to spell veteran big men Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess.
Perry was quick not to make any playing-time predictions for Johnson.
“That’s going to be left up to Coach (Michael) Curry and the staff,” Perry said. “He’s a guy we are looking at being a part of our rotation, but that will clear itself out when we go into the regular season and the preseason.”
Contact VINCE ELLIS at 313-222-6479 or vellis@freepress.com.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080717/SPORTS03/807170402/1048/rss03
I think that there are a couple of reasons that Amir gets a lot of fouls.
1. He is probably on the ball on defense more than any of our defenders except maybe our point guard. He presses and covers the inbounds pass on almost all end line pass ins. He goes after loose balls. He hedges a lot on defense.
2. He is learning to do new things on defense. He is learning how to better cover the pick and roll. He is learning how to cheat on rebounding by among other things giving that little shove in the lower back to move his opponent out of position. He is learning how to better hedge so that he can do it without being out of position and therefore commit a foul in attempting to recover to get to his man.
I have been encouraged by a slightly improved aggressiveness on offense, mainly by starting to drive to the hoop from the elbow with the ball. He dis this very successfully in the D-league but in the NBA it is more difficult because the defenses are camouflaged so much better.
There is one play that Amir used very successfully in high school and the D-League that I saw him attempt in the last summer league game. He was called for a charge when he attempted it in the last summer league game. When the play works it is one of the most exciting in basketball.
What he does is start from the elbow with the ball or receives a pass going into the lane as a cutter. He then takes one or two dribbles does a complete 360 degree spin around his man then takes off and hammers it down. It is a heck of an exciting play. Hopefully we will start seeing some of these from him this year during the regular season.
“I don’t tend to rag on anyone in general around here for using statistics in an argument nor do I tend to rag on you ever, but Amir’s time on the floor in the NBA has almost entirely been against NBDL quality players in the 4th quarter of games with an already determined outcome.”
Amir played 12.4 minute per game, which is obviously more minutes than there are in a quarter. Statistical evidence indicates that players actually improve with more playing time, even if they were at the end of the bench. As such, it is inaccurate to suggest that his PER means nothing.
Of course, if he can’t stay on the court because of foul trouble, then it does mean nothing. That is the only variable that should cause us concern.
And Kevin Garnett has made a lot of players his bitch over time. That’s why they call him Kevin Garnett.
I think that Amir’s foul rate will drop from last year of 6.6 per 36 minutes but keep in mind that Carl Boozer fouled out 6 times last year and McDyess 4 times.
It is not like we are going to be asking Amir to give us 30 minutes a game this coming year. I think if he averages around 18 - 20 mpg this coming year it would be very good growth for him. He can handle 18-20 minutes without fouling out, even if he doesn’t reduce his fouls per minute rate this coming year from what it was last year.
Here’s a question… maybe Amir’s in a new offense a season AFTER he learned a lot of Flip’s offense and that could explain this “look of confusion” that some asshat thinks he has.
The guy does not have plays run for him. He gets his points from put backs and dishes off drives to the paint that give him an open look. Right now, he’s nothing more than Dennis Rodman, without the occasional 3 point ball.
Of course the guy looks confused on offense, wouldn’t you looked confused while playing on a veteran laden team where if you take an ill advised jumper they might yank you for Theo?
Amir is going to be a serviceable big man in the NBA. I do not think anyone here thinks he’s the next 20/10 guy who is going to blow everyone’s socks off. He is going to be a valuable asset for Detroit going forward.
kevin: 12.3 doesn’t mean squat when games he plays double-figure minutes in over 60% of the time were games where the teams were separated by 20+ points at the end of the 3rd quarter. The whole second half (and sometimes some of the first) of that kind of game is usually statistically skewed if you get into the nuts and bolts of it (which is something that can lead to game logs of 20 minutes+ for Amir). 3.6 points in those 12.3 minutes?
So what does that translate to over Rasheed’s 30 minutes per game if we were to take it seriously? 9 points. NINE points. Even hiking that up to 12 points/game (which is way generous), the offensive Messiah he is not.
I make no bones about the fact that from the Lakers game alone, he has shown me much more on defense to appease most of my fears. In that same game, where he got 18 minutes and change of burn, he went 0-1, for 1 point. That’s an extrapolation, to be sure, but it captures my viewpoint completely.
On offense, in between the occasional highlight reel play (check how the defender is playing him or who it even is), the guy is an utter mess. You know who that reminds me of? Delfino. I know the crowd is split here over Delfino, but this thread began with information that he has just agreed to go play in Russia. Amir has never looked comfortable (again, please someone challenge me if you think I’m making this up) in our half-court offense. His flashes of brilliance are watered down in my eyes by constant indecision and uncertainty when we’re in our half-court sets.
Maybe PER is an equal opportunity stat for offense and defense (I wouldn’t know nor care), if so, good for it. It still doesn’t matter, because it doesn’t take “opposing team’s motivation or caliber of NBA players fielded at a given time” into account.
The variable that should cause us the most concern is the useless minutes that Amir has played througb 3 years. Blame Flip for that one if you want (I won’t stop you), but there’s no accurate statistics on the guy yet, and all I see is the exact opposite of Stuckey’s demeanor whenever Amir gets the ball in any situation that doesn’t involve an offensive rebound. And that scares the crap out of me, because confidence is kind of a Pistons mantra.
Boney: PER usual (hehehehe), you’re the asshat. He’s had a look of confusion dating back to day 1. He had the same coach for the first 73 games of his career. Maybe if you paid attention to what I said instead of only what you say, you’d capture that very clear sentiment as a major premise of my position.
So what’s the argument here? I think that if we all wrote down on a notecard what we expect Amir to produce, the numbers would all look pretty much the same. We all agree with the same things: he needs a wider offensive repertoire, increased confidence and aggressiveness on the offensive end, to improve his one-on-one defense against stronger players, and to cut down the fouls. We also agree that he has incredible athleticism and the potential to be a very unique player. We also all agree that we don’t know if he’s going to be another Stromile Swift or if he will put it all together and be a guy who we can rely on to get us to the Finals.
I just don’t get what all the fuss is about - we all agree that he can’t walk on water. He’d just jump over the mo-foing lake.
I personally think that he could not beat a single LA Clipper in a game of 1 on 1 because now that the Clippers have Marcus Camby, they’re FTW!!!!11!1!!111
yippeee!!
Shinons: That’s an extremely astute synopsis of Amir in my view. I couldn’t have, despite having already tried, said it better myself. If we all agree on that, then you’re absolutely right. I don’t think we do. If I missed that part, my bad, a thousand sincere apologies. I thought some people still think he looks like a great prospect for becoming a potential impact starter. Put me far away from that camp unless he magically gets that look off his face on offense.
A community that reps a “Free Amir” shirt on its front page (sorry for the cheap shot Matt, I hope this doesn’t affect sales of the shirt) doesn’t exactly speak well of itself for a guy who’s looking more and more each day like he’s on his way to becoming the next Stromile Swift.
I think Amir is just young and he does seem tenative, but i must say hes in a decent situation. Hes super young, for the most part he has complete fan support, the front office likes him. Not all piston reserves in rcent years can say that. If he gets minutes I really dont think it will take much more than a dunk or two, consciously given by Bill/Stuck(smartly), to get his confidence up. Plus, i think with Stuckey on the court we can get out and run a little more, especially off turnovers. I think we will play to his strengths, and he will be a solid bench big man this season.
maybe they should just add another amir above “free amir” so it says “amir free amir” becuase if he makes less mistakes he will simply get more minutes
You really shouldnt start comparing amir with swift…i mean ya, he looks pretty bad in summer league, but it is summer league. Our starters look like that in the reg season against sub par talent, when they are bored. He hasnt really played since the end of last reg season(maybe this is why) but i say we wait until he plays for wins/losses. Stuckey is really learning leadership and already has confidence…and confidence breeds confidence, so im still sold, but still feel a tad shorted.
With the young athletic guys, it seems like there is a switch where they just gain enough confidence to just go out there and play aggressively. You can really spot the point where that happened with Josh Smith. Who knows if Amir will ever be able to flip the switch - we will know a lot more this time next year than we do now.
Ack! More switches!
Man, I sure hope Amir doesn’t actually read this stuff. Haha… what a crazy thread. I’ll co-sign with LawyerBoy on his take, though. I hope Amir succeeds and can have some highlight reel plays and just get out and have fun, but it’s been 3 years and limited minutes and I still haven’t really seen it yet. I think the most polarizing element of the whole Amir thing is that some say he’ll be an All-Star while others say he’ll be a bust. That about sums it up in my opinion. If he falls somewhere in-between (8 ppg, 8 rpg, a block and steal here and there, and some highlight-worthy crams) I’ll be happy.
@LB:
“I thought some people still think he looks like a great prospect for becoming a potential impact starter. Put me far away from that camp unless he magically gets that look off his face on offense.”
I still think he looks like a great prospect for becoming a potential impact starter.
As for that look, it will likely go away when Detroit’s coach actually, believe-it-or-not, runs a play that involves him on offense.
“3.6 points in those 12.3 minutes?”
The above will change that as well, when Amir is getting more offensive action that put-backs and tip-ins.