In internet years, this rumor already decades old, but I haven’t touched officially on it yet and would like to offer my two cents. Sam Amick of the Sacramento Bee recently listed several possible destinations for Ron Artest and surprisingly included Detroit:
Could this be why Artest was so interested in interviewing brawl instigator John Green a while back? It would be a brilliant PR move if the Pistons were looking to put a package together for Artest.
And from what I was told from one source close to the Pistons, they are. I’ve yet to get this info from more than one person, so stay tuned. But much like the Mavs’ situation, this could be one of those where the player the Kings want (perhaps Tayshaun Prince) would be different than the one offered (Jason Maxiell, anyone?). Pure speculation on my part in terms of the potential pieces.
[Update: Amick found a second source to verify Detroit’s interest.]
For PR reasons alone, I’d be shocked if the Pistons pulled the trigger unless they could get him for 50 cents on the dollar, and given the alleged league-wide interest in Artest, I’m not sure that will ever happen. But let’s say it did … would you endorse the move?
Call me crazy, but I would. Strictly speaking from a basketball perspective, Artest is an incredible talent. He’s an extremely strong and physical player capable of guarding the best player on the opposing team, regardless of position. I enjoy watching Tayshaun Prince as much as anyone, but would Artest ever let LeBron James score 25 straight? Would he allow Paul Pierce to slice and dice the defense? No chance.
No one wants to win more than Artest. He’s notorious for playing as hard in the opening minutes of a game as he does down the stretch of a close game — he only has one gear. When the Kings came to town in January, Artest was playing just his second game after missing nine with an elbow injury. He was awful during a 25-point loss in his first game back in Toronto, and talking with him two nights later, I remember being surprised at how his performance was still eating at him:
“I was pissed. I was pissed that we lost. I was pissed that I came back and I couldn’t help my team win. I was pissed at myself. I just felt like I let my team down, I was so pissed. We talked about it when we got back to the hotel and everybody was back on the same page.” […] “Right after the game I got dressed and Reggie [Theus] finished talking and I left. I just walked back to the hotel, I was so pissed. Lost by about 20 points, that’s not fun.”
The Pistons have had guys like Antonio McDyess wear their heart on their sleeves like this in the playoffs, but this was after a regular season game in January. Yeah, I’ll take an attitude like that in the locker room any day.
I know, I know … but isn’t Artest a little crazy? Don’t believe the caricature the media has painted of him, because he’s probably one of the most complex guys in the NBA. Read this interview he did with The Starting Five in December — it’s one of the most thoughtful and introspective interviews you’ll ever find, and it sheds some light on the other side of Artest that we rarely get to see.
Yes, he’s absolutely made some mistakes that make me cringe, but unlike a lot of athletes he seems to always try owning up to them in the end. No, it doesn’t excuse them, but it counts for something.
Hell, I’m not even mad anymore about the Malice at the Palace — I pin that ugly chapter of Pistons lore on John Green. (And besides, Charles Barkley once brawled with the fans at the Palace — does that still define who he is? Of course not. If Artest’s involvement in that incident is still a poison pill to accepting everything else he brings to the table, you need a broader sense of perspective.)
In the end, none of this really matters — I’d be absolutely shocked if the Pistons actually pulled the trigger, especially if it involved giving up squeaky clean Tay. But is this something I’d like to see? Absolutely.
I would disagree with the part where you say Artest has a burning desire to win. When the Pistons played Indiana in the ECF, I remember Artest making a stupid and obvious cheap shot that basically tipped a close game into Detroit’s favor.
As I said on another thread, that’s the kind of losing attitude that I’ve bashed Sheed for.
Then, there’s the whole wanting to take time off to concentrate on music.
I really wonder if the guy loves basketball and desires to win a title.
FREE RICK MAHORN!!!
Maxiell for Artest, yes. Tayshaun for Artest, no.
I think Prince’s role in the Pistons being good at taking care of the basketball on offense is underrated and that more than anything is what has made this team special over the years. Rip isn’t a great ballhandler and Chauncey can always throw it to Tay’s 7-foot wingspan and let him initiate the offense and/or take the last second shot.
Swap Prince for Artest and I’m seeing one superior passer and 4 average passers in the Detroit starting lineup. I don’t care what other qualities the players bring, that strikes me as a bad mix.
Can we trade DeVon Hardin for him?
If so, I co-sign!!!!
Since day one of Detroit’s off-season, my main interest as a fan is getting an SF (to replace or back up Tay) that can shut down who I see as the gatekeepers of the ECF: Lebron and Pierce. Tay can’t do it. With this, I agree with Matt– Artest could shut them down better than any other SF in the league, most likely.
He’s an absolute nutcase. He’s also a nutcase with one season left on his contract. Bringing Artest in without losing much could give us precisely what we need to win a championship. After this season is over, he’s gone. If we want to bring him back, we can. But as this stands– he’d only have one season in Detroit, guaranteed, which I think is worth the risk.
I about lost my mind when people on DBB were suggesting an Artest trade earlier in the season. I was wrong. They were right. I support this now. But if his contract was any longer than one season, I would absolutely not do it.
Maxiell for Artest: in a heartbeat. Tayshaun for Artest: in a coin toss.
I’ll tell you one thing, if other teams’ fans hated D-town before (which they all do, vehemently), I can’t imagine the reaction after we added Ron-Ron to the crew.
Mike P: Artest here for one year, then what do we do for the SF after that? Sharpe next year? Get Hermann for two years and he takes over next? I don’t think we get anyone out there on the FA market next year for what we’re paying Tay, not to mention someone at that price who is that good.
And I would prefer not to tie up RonRon for a long-term deal. He’s whacked. He leads us to a chip, and his market price goes up…don’t know who would pay, but if we’re going to do it, I’d like to see him signed for 2 or 3 years but he’s probably going to ask for 10-13M/yr in year 1.
But, I do believe he’s the only one in the league capable of shutting down LeBron & Pierce…shutting down being what it would be with those two.
I can definitely understand the appeal to this trade, but it would leave us with some strong personalities to blend together. Three of our starters would have finished in the top 25 of most techs last season. I still believe that the reason we lost in 2006 was the locker room dynamic with Ben quitting on us.
Also, I don’t really see Artest as much of an upgrade over Tay. He’d be nice to bring in as a change of pace off the bench, but would he be happy in that role? Risky. I’m voting no on this one, even if it’s for 50 cents on the dollar.
@Mark Butter:
It depends on what Deng and Marion do, really. If they stick around for the last year of their contract, they’d be free agents after next season. Those are two big targets, just for example.
We’d have nearly $9 million off the books for Artest and $13.5 million off the books for Rasheed. With $22.5 million, we’d likely be the biggest player in the 2009 free agent market. Since 2010 is the big trade market, it might be possible to hold a chunk of that to pair with Rip’s expiration and make some sexy moves.
And by “sexy moves”, I mean “like a dance”. It’ll be fun.
MikeP: I hear ya, but Marion’s asking for more than the 17M he’s at now, though the market will dictate differently. Deng, I think Chi either signs him long-term or sign and trade this summer. But Deng’s defense on LeBron or Pierce doesn’t excite me, some of the 22M available will have to be done to replace/resign Sheed.
If they’re talking about Smith asking 12M+ now, who are we going to get (i.e. 2 players) for ~12M each that are going to be better than Tay/Sheed? This is just a general question, I don’t expect names and what not. But just on the surface you’re trying to replace basically 2 all-stars for 12M each. It’s possible but I think you end up putting all your eggs into one basket. Some of that money will be needed for Max and in 2010, I believe Amir’s contract is up.
As for the techs issue, I think Curry can handle that, but we need a strong leader to set the tone…a tone different than the one Chauncey has set the last couple of years.
My biggest fear right now is the pistons go into the season without any changes, play balls to the wall and come Feb after the trade deadline, each of them say Joe D was just blowing smoke and revert back to their lackadasical ways.
Let’s just trade Tayshaun for President Bush and Chauncey Billups for Dick Chaney. That will be the equivelant of trading for Ron Artest.
Did you guys see the brawl last night between the Shock and L.A.?
I believe that talking Ron Artest up actually contributed to that brawl.
Before the brawl, Artest was one of the players I most wanted to see in Detroit. Even now I still think he’d be a good addition to the team, but I don’t think he’s the player he was a few years ago & wouldn’t swap Prince or Max for him.
Statistically, Artest ranked among the 10 most overrated players in the NBA last season. http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/who-is-the-most-overrated-in-2007-08/
Meanwhile, Prince ranked among the top 15 at small forward. http://www.wagesofwins.com/15SF0708.html
I dunno, I think Artest’s defensive reputation is a little overstated these days. The handcheck rules really screwed up his ability to defend, and he’s not quick enough to defend against players with great first steps. He can handle bulkier guys for stretches (James, Pierce), but even then, he has a hard time containing them without getting into foul trouble. His opponent PERs in Sacramento have also been terrible. It’s not a perfect measuring stick, but it’s usually not a great sign for someone touted as a defensive stopper.
On offense, he had a hard time recognizing that Kevin Martin was a much better scoring option. He can have stretches where he takes over offensively, but he also falls in love with his jumper sometimes, which probably hurt more than it helped.
Ok. That’s enough. Stop it damnit. Maximus is not getting traded for Ron Artest, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Babe Ruth, Walter Payton or anyone else. Now thats enough of this non-sense. I command you to stop it. Why don’t we trade Amir? I’m sure everyone wants him cause he’s the second coming. But Maximus is not on the market. Now stop this crazy talk, I say!!!
And please stop it with the use of the damn PER stat. When the hell did talking about pts, rebs, assts, steals, blocks, straight up get replaced by all this PER shit. This is my last warning before I got postal damnit. No more talk about trading Maximus. I’m warning you S.O.B.’s!!!!
David Stern will never allow a team with Sheed and Artest to win a championship. He will also not allow said team to ever play on National TV preventing Pistons fans outside of Michigan and without League Pass to ever see them play.
This would go down in history as the greatest trade ever made if it happened. I would trade Prince for Artest any day. Prince seemed to be wearing out his skill during the Playoffs for the past two years. Let’s move him.
I’m less worried about the brawling and more worried about his commitment to teams. Remember when he thought he’d take some time off to promote his rap album? There’s something not right about him.
Prince is a better defender than Artest. As far as Pierce and LeBron, we held them to 18 and 19 ppg respectively this year (compared to 22 and 25 for SAC). Prince is NOT the problem with our defense. Add to this the fact that Ron has averaged 57 games per year, which means we would have to average his performance with 25 games from his backup, and it is clear that trading Prince would be a very bad idea.
If we can get him for one of our young guys, he is worth the risk.
You know, everyone always talks about RonRon’s D (and it’s better, overall, than just about anyone’s in the league) but it’s his entire game that impresses me. He’ll drop 30 at any given time. Lethal combo.
As far as 50 cents on the dollar…at 8 mil per, he’s already at 75 cents on the dollar. He’s worth 10-11 mil per. Nocioni anyone? Yuck. Sure, he’s had his indiscretions, but who hasn’t? If it weren’t for the craziest event in NBA (sports) history, he wouldn’t be considered “crazy” and he’d be making damn near max money.
I’d love him on the team. Just because when most people hear the name “Artest” their minds automatically revert to the split-second decision a human (yeah, he’s only human) made in the heat of the moment. Take that away and he’s a somewhat average player in the NBA as far as bad decision-making goes. Trust me; he feels bad. He’s only making 8 mil per for a reason, and the reason is stated above. He won’t do it again.
Anyway, this is my first post. Hello.
___
Oh, and if we don’t get him, forget I mentioned any of this.
The reason Prince’s defense has “suffered” the last couple years can be summed up in two words: Ben Wallace.
Just trade Maxiell for him and keep Prince.
flashlight: I’m not sure why the Brawl has much to do with a contract signed by Artest in 2002. That is what you’re saying, right? You’re saying that if not for the Brawl, he’d be making significantly more than he will/would because of The Brawl? If I misunderstood what you said, I apologize and this is all moot, but I don’t see how his role in The Brawl has anything to do with what he’s making now, unless you’re assuming that he would get paid more in the summer of 2008 if he had opted out and not been the impetus for The Brawl (which he’s said he wished he’d done in hindsight) than if had he just opted out and still been “the guy from The Brawl”. I don’t think GMs would put much stock in The Brawl in contract negotiations with him. Of course, I could be completely wrong and his supposed “volatility” may be a factor.
I agree that he’d have a good shot of snagging a multi-year $10-$11 million/per season deal had he opted out this summer, but I don’t think he’d be cashing in more than that this summer had the Brawl never happened. Otherwise, welcome to DBB, friend.
@E-Double:
“And please stop it with the use of the damn PER stat. When the hell did talking about pts, rebs, assts, steals, blocks, straight up get replaced by all this PER shit. This is my last warning before I got postal damnit. No more talk about trading Maximus. I’m warning you S.O.B.’s!!!!”
Like many others here, I use stats to help develop my opinions. That doesn’t mean I believe that stats are absolute, because the whole story about a player’s performance cannot be explained by stats. If it was, fans would watch box scores, not games, GMs would make trades based on game logs, not personalities.
That’s not to say, however, that statistics cannot help us understand the game, develop educated opinions and justify them with data. Stats are, after all, a mathematic expression of documented facts. They represent the in-game dunks, the blocks, the 3 pointers, the turnovers, the events of a game that result from the performance of a player and a team.
PER is an index of stats. John Hollinger has developed PER as a stat index to document positive performance in a range of stats, weighted by negative performance in the same. While it is not a perfect system, it provides a “birds eye view” of a players performance, as well as a unit of measurement to compare players.
There are many, many index stats like PER. Dberri has “wins produced”. 82games has its “roland rating”. Hollinger has “PER”.
If you were to use individual stats to describe a player’s performance, like his total number of rebounds per game, assist to turnover ratio, if these are acceptable, then so can PER be to a degree. If you’re looking for a means to quantify a player’s performance, an index stat like PER is widely acceptable. You can’t knock an index stat and then boast individual stats in the same breath. Well, you can, but it only reflects a misunderstanding for what PER and other index stats represent.
I love stats. I love games more. I love players more. I love personalities more. But there is a common, repeating issue on DBB– if a member here uses an index stat to help quantify his/her opinion, they’re quickly labeled as “out of touch” or “calculator hungry” or otherwise.
Point being, everyone from casual fans to die hard addicts to general managers use stats, individual or index. No index stat is infallible. But at the end of the day, they are useful means of communicating an opinion based on the real, human performance that these stats represent.
1) I love Artest’s basketball game. On both ends of the court. When the Pacers were “TheRealDeal”tm and scared the crap out of me on a moment to moment basis, he was the reason, not Jermaine “Leadfoot” O’Neil. He’s a comparable offensive talent to someone like Shawn Marion, but he’s got defensive game on par with what we’ve seen out of Tay. Thats a great combination
2) There’s absolutely no question in my mind after reviewing the past three ECF series that the Pistons need someone who both wants the ball when the chips are down AND can create his own shot to do it.
3) Ron Artest is not that player. He’s a great second option. But then again so is Sheed. And Rip Hamilton, and Chauncey Billups. Basically we have like 91 second options on the Pistons already right?
There was a time when I would have done anything to see Ron Artest in a Piston’s uniform, and even as late as last trade deadline I still would have embraced the idea… but that was when I thought he’d put the team over the top for a title. Now I realize he wouldn’t, so why bother?
PS, missed you guys. Life is different these days, the internet doesn’t love me very much anymore. Fwiw, I cried like a little girl when Sheed said it was over. I might NEVER recover from game 3 either.
I’m honestly not sure how I would react to a Tay for Artest trade. I can’t decide if it’s worth the risk. IMO I think Ron Ron raises the ceiling for our team next year. If you could pick one guy to D up Lebron and Pierce it would have to be Artest right? But as we all know Artest has his quirks while Tay is the consumate teammate. Tay is also the youngest of our core guys and is locked up at reasonable price for the next 3 years while Artest is in the last year of his contract. If he blows this year we clear his 9 Million + Sheed’s 13.5 Million (Plus Rip has the option to opt out as well I believe) plus we’d have Dyess in the last year of his contract, and a lot of good young talent still on their rookie contracts so there would be a lot of options through free agency and trades…but it’s definitely risky going that route, nothing is garaunteed to happen.
I’ve come to the conclusion that there’s too much risk to make this trade now. I believe there will be better options once the season gets going. There will be some good teams who won’t be doing as well as they thought they were whether it be due to injuries, depth of the Western Conference, or they just decide to suck for no particular reason like the Bulls last year.
However, if it’s the last minute of the February trade deadline and nothing else is available? Take the risk.
Holy Shit, PG4L, is that you? *throws a pound, cracks a beer for ya* Welcome back.
pg4l back from the dead! welcome back…
artest is a mess. this “opting out was a mistake” baloney is just another in a long, long line of off-the-court distractions that he brings into the locker room. we don’t need to be artest-level desperate.
One last thing. Health wise we all know Tay never misses a game while Artest has played 56, 70, and 56 games over the last 3 years…so another reason it’s a bit riskier to acquire him now. I’d rather see him play some relatively healthy bball for 2/3 of the season and trade for him then.
Would Artest look good in a Pistons uniform? Is he the same player that was a defensive player of the year candidate? I get this odd feeling that perhaps his best years are gone and we are viewing him with rose tinted glasses. I don’t like it because it isn’t what this team needs to get over the hump. If Joe gets him for nothing then I can embrace this idea, otherwise I like Tay just where he is. Josh Smith, T-Mac or nada.
Sign PG4L to the full MLE! Nice to see you again PG4L
Hahaha, thanks guys. It’s nice to feel so much love on a day as sad as today.
-PG4L, mourning the loss of the Shock’s season, Planette Pierson’s sanity and Josh Childress’s Fro…
I co-sign Mike Payne’s really long post.
Also, I think Tay is the ultimate glue guy. I’d really hate to see him go, and I don’t think his defense has been that big of a problem for us. I think it’s more of a lack of team D. There’s got to be some pride in not allowing guys like James and Pierce to go nuts. I say that fully recognizing that the NBA is a different game than when the Bad Boys played it. But it still wouldn’t kill us from using a really hard foul on those types of players every now and again.
If Tay were to go, I think it significantly changes our team. Who is going to take the toughest defensive assignment night in and night out without bitching or asking for any credit whatsoever? These kinds of things actually do matter.
Also, I think Artest is a top 10 talent when his head is screwed on straight. I’d be really worried about him doing something silly as hell if we were to get him. I wasn’t sitting too far away when he jacked Rip in the face in the 04 East Finals Game 6. That was unequivocally the turning point in that game, and I’m pretty sure nobody in the building sat from that point forward. Color me concerned about his ability to (a) fit in, and (b) not lose it at key moments.
“If you could pick one guy to D up Lebron and Pierce it would have to be Artest right? ”
I’d pick Prince. See above.
“And please stop it with the use of the damn PER stat. When the hell did talking about pts, rebs, assts, steals, blocks, straight up get replaced by all this PER shit.”
Since people started realizing that fantasy value is not the same as real value.
Each of the stats you name is, in part, a function of other stats. Points and assists are a function of pace. Turnovers are a function of both pace and how often a player has possession. And every integer stat is a function of playing time.
PER takes all of this into account. If one were to look solely at points, rebounds etc… One might conclude that Ron Artest is better than Manu Ginobili. Obviously, he is not.
As such, it makes for a handy shorthand. Rather than explaining why Stephen Jackson really isn’t all that good in spite of the fact that he averages 20 ppg, I can point to his utterly average PER.
It is often correct to say that the PER does not tell the whole story about a player. If you believe that this is true, simply point out the disconnect as it pertains to that player.
If you believe the metric is flawed, it would be good to point out a player whose value either exceeds or falls short of his PER.
Okay, I looked at some of my friend’s NBA archives from this season. The Kings’ defense was pretty much off non-existent all year, and Artest wasn’t immune to the malaise, since at times he was working much harder on offense than defense. There were very few instances where he was on full-on cruise mode, but he wasn’t going balls to the wall every time he was on the floor. Even this season, he was solid on defense. Stronger SFs can’t post him up, and he’s a smart defender. As noted before, he seemed to have issues defending speedier players.
Here’s how he fared against some of the premier scorers in the league. Head to heads don’t always tell you everything, and Artest may not have guarded these guys the entire games, but I do know that he was placed on James and Pierce almost all of the time. Take these for what they’re worth.
LeBron
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=artesro01&p2=jamesle01
Pierce
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=artesro01&p2=piercpa01
Kobe
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=artesro01&p2=bryanko01
Carmelo
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=artesro01&p2=anthoca01
Now, on offense, he’s really around the league average for shooting efficiency. But when he decides to drive, the guy is just a bitch to defend. He can bull through smaller guys, and there aren’t too many small forwards who can match him on power (some PFs can’t, either). The downside is that when he goes into takeover mode, he often chooses to take jumpers rather than drive. That has to be frustrating for Kings fans.
I think he has areas where he could clearly help the team, but the possibility for a meltdown increases a lot with him around.
OMG. PG4L…..welcome home Mama!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matt:
I agree 100% with your perspective on this subject.
He definitely wants out of Sacramento. I think his value will go down the closer it gets to October. If he is still with the Kings come then I think that if Davidson approved a deal for him, we might be able to get him pretty cheap. After all the Lakers got Gasol for practically nothing and the Clippers got Camby for less than nothing. LOL
Chauncey can always throw it to Tay’s 7-foot wingspan and let him initiate the offense and/or take the last second shot.
Swap Prince for Artest and I’m seeing one superior passer and 4 average passers in the Detroit starting lineup. I don’t care what other qualities the players bring, that strikes me as a bad mix.>>
Prince’s career average on assists is 2.8 per 36 minutes
Artest’s career average is 3.3 per 36 minutes.
Ok, we might be getting into the surreal world of piston’s fanhood where even the mere mention of someone coming to the team erases a multitude of sins and gets folks drinking the Kool Aid. And I’m cool with that. But RonRon? Come on? Anyone who compares the locker room risk of Sheed to Ron Artest is desperately seeking Tracey McGrady. Ron is FOR REAL crazy. Half of what got Sheed in trouble in Portland was his politics (i.e. he was a little too street for folks). Ron Artest is actually imbalanced. He actually crossed the line and started blindly attacking a crowd full of innocent people (minus one guy who through…a liquid!) And to say that he’s taken responsibility for his actions,
http://www.need4sheed.com/2006/08/keep-ron-away-from-children.html
http://www.pistonsforum.com/detroit-pistons-general-discussion/3815-ron-artest-tells-detroit-youth-he-has-learned-nothing.html
well…I lost a little respect for you on that one MW. That is either either pure denial or purely talking out of the side of your neck– i.e. not like you. I mean, talent wise, there’s a good case for a mentally stable Ron Artest. I’m open to an upgrade at the SF, if one is out there. But crazy Ron is beyond locker room poison.
A move would spice up the off season, no doubt. But let’s not get…well…crazy.
Statistically, Artest ranked among the 10 most overrated players in the NBA last season. http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/who-is-the-most-overrated-in-2007-08/
Meanwhile, Prince ranked among the top 15 at small forward. http://www.wagesofwins.com/15SF0708.html>
Depends on what stats you are looking at.
According to 82games.com Artest’s Roland Rating was +6.2 which was higher than any of our guys except for Billups
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708SAC.HTM
If you look at Holligner’s PER (Player Efficiency Rating) for SF Artest was 7th with a 18.89 rating
Prince on the other hand was 24th with a PER of behind such stars
like Ryan Gomes and Trevor Ariza.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=per&qual=true&pos=sf&seasonType=2&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dper%26qual%3dtrue%26pos%3dsf%26seasonType%3d2
If you go to 82games.com and look at Artest’s Roland Rating it was 6.2 which was higher than any Pistons player except for Billups
In Hollinger’s PER of SF Artest was ranked 7th and Prince 24th behind such stars as Ryan Gomes and Tevor Ariza.
I would trade Sheed and Maxiell for Artist, S. Williams and a non-protected 1st round pick in 2009 above #3 and 100% unprotected in 2010.
Who is this “PistonsGirl4Life” you all speak of?
Nah, just kidding. Welcome back, PG4L.
And I’m not down with Artest. He’s got skills, but I don’t think bringing him in at the expense of (possibly) Tay will put us over the top.
Mike - Straight assist numbers aren’t a great indicator when taken out of context of pace and turnovers. Here are a few comparisons from last year, the most relevant for next year [from 82games.com]:
Assists/48 minutes - Artest 4.4, Prince 4.8
Assist/Bad Pass - Artest 4.0, Prince 5.5
If you factor in pace Artest’s assist numbers look worse.
Last year Artest played 1193 fewer minutes than Prince and still had more turnovers. Prince didn’t have a single 24 second violation or 5 second violation on an inbounds play all season and Artest had 6. It’s an understatement to say Prince is a heady player. Tay’s ‘hands rating’ last year was better than either Gilbert Arenas or Tony Parker and they are All-Star PGs. Artest is NOT a better passer or ballhandler than Prince.
Skill-wise, Artest would be a great addition, but the guy has proven to be utterly unreliable and seems to see himself as the no. 1 option on a team. Not in this life.
I bet he’d fit in just fine. Look at the shitty teams he’s been a part of. I think he’s getting long in the tooth to consider himself number 1, especially on this Piston team. He wants to win so bad he’d defer. I doubt Curry would hesitate for a second to pull rank on his ass. I would love to see that fool join Detroit. It’s Bizarro. He defends and we need defense again.
Also, Artest pouts when he doesn’t get the ball and has a tendency to freelance on offense.
It is worth noting that Artest is a very strong offensive player. But to put his skills in perspective (and with apologies to E-Double)…
Prince had a PER of 15.6
Artest had a PER of 18.9
Let’s be generous and say we continue to have decent luck with whatever backup SF we stick in there (this assumes we do not pick up Devean George, obviously). That gives us a PER of 13 at the backup.
Since Artest averages 1/3rd of the season out, that gives us an average PER of 16.9 from the position. I don’t think that is enough of a difference to make up for the intangibles.
Ron Artest is the Mike Tyson of the NBA, one minute introspective and misunderstood/sympathetic if not intelligent, the next he is threatening to eat babies or brawl with fans. Artest is unstable and cannot be relied on. Basketball aside can you imagine Bill Davidson sanctioning such a deal? He jettisoned Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown b/c of personal differences, I don’t think he’d be very receptive to having a loose cannon playing for his team or making assinine comments to the media. The man has serious issues, not minor idiosyncracies, not the type of problems that can be solved by being around a good group of guys (like Rasheed in his early days in Detroit).
“I enjoy watching Tayshaun Prince as much as anyone, but would Artest ever let LeBron James score 25 straight?”
Probably. A determined LeBron James, with the quickness and first step that he has, would be able to blow by the 29-year-old oft-injured Artest in a crucial game. Nearly all of those 25 were either uncontested layups or 3-point-plays from help defense that came too late. No one in the league can guard LeBron James without a double team or rotating help-side defense in the fourth quarter of a crucial game. We were out to prove just that last year.
“Would he allow Paul Pierce to slice and dice the defense?”
What? Pierce averaged 19.7 points in the series. His season average was 19.6. He shot 3% better from the field than in the regular season, yes, but when you hold a star to his average isn’t that a job well done, especially in the post-season? I always thought that was sort of the goal, to hold a star capable of scoring 40, 50 even, to his average. Shouldn’t we be looking at the fact that Perkins scored 3.5 points more a game than his season average? Or that Garnett upped his game by 4 points/game? Both post-players, hmm. I don’t believe Prince guarded either one of them.
I guess I’m a little baffled by the fact that everyone so quickly buys into the thinking that Artest is a better defender than Prince. LeBron James averaged, a meager for him, 19.3 against the Pistons, a team that rarely double teams and since Ben left doesn’t pose an inside defensive threat. (Yes, we average close to the same amounts of blocks/game, but things have changed, that’s irrefutable). Pierce only averaged 15 against us during the regular season. Prince’s defense on both James and Pierce represents their second lowest mark against any team last season.
Prince is also the only one of our starters with any future potential. His game still could substantially improve. Haven’t we seen the best of Artest? Wasn’t his best five years ago when he guided his team to losing to us in the Conference Finals?
I guess I remain completely unconvinced that Prince makes any sense to be shipped away at a low cost, other than the fact that he has value that none of our other starters does. Why most people seem to be convinced that all that we need was a new SF, or a backup SF, doesn’t make any sense. Artest is tough, yes, and… I guess it would get us closer to becoming the next Portland Trailblazer, which would be sort of cool.
(1) There are a lots of Pistons fans believe its time to move Billups out of starting lineup because Stuckey is better than him. Well, I don’t think so because Stuckey’s impressive performances in both regular season and playoff this year means Pistons Finally Find the 100% Reliable Backup For Mr. Big Shot, but that doesn’t mean Stuck is ready to replace Chauncey in his 2nd year. I think eveyone needs to wait to see what happen to Rodney in his 2nd year, especially if he can stay healthy all season long, then make the judgement to see how domanated he can be in the near future.
(2) Don’t trust 100% when a person saying a lots of things with angry/mad attitude because that person can say anything crazy without thinking too much at that moment. From what I am reading from most pistons related web pages, I realize some pistons fans are disappointed that there is no big trade in any kind to involved (only rumors) with pistons these days. I think Joe was really mad at his team when he was talking “Besides Stuck, anyone is tradable” to media back to in the beginning of June. But I don’t think he will really trade his starter to somewhere else this year. I always think Detroit Pistons’ 6 straight ECF apparences like a college studnet who want to get 4.0 GPA from his/her current 3.7 GPA. You know, the 3.7 GPA student doesn’t need to deny what he/she has already done. All he/she needs is some suggestions from his/her teachers, classmates, friends and family, etc in order to be the straight A students at school. Just put that “theory” to Pistons, I believe all Pistons need is the new directions from the new coach, not the superstar player(s) coming to the team. You do not totally deny the 6 straight ECF apparences becuase that tells you what level this team is since the past couple years. Moreover, I believe Deeetroit Basketballl will stay the same no matter what NBA superstar they will get in the future if that happen. What I am saying is Pistons basketball = team basketball= share the ball= everyone is equally important in the team. Are you guys sure those NBA stars will fit Pistons’ System? I doubt it. Celtics were the bottom team in Eastern Conference for past couple years and thats why their GM decide to make big moves like this year. However, Pistons don’t need famous superstar and they can still be in ECF for 6 straight years.. People, are you sure Pistons need superstars in their team? Just think it one more time ok.
Let me bring back some reality here. Artest is vastly overrated offensively and defensively. Offensively, he is a black hole, he will waste 10-15 seconds off the shot clock backing someone down low and then jack up a wild shot. And he hits an occassional 3 so basically we’re getting a shorter poor man’s Sheed. Prince>Artest.
Now for his defense, lets look at how he fared against our two biggest sf rivals in the east, Pierce and Lebron. Last year Sac played Boston twice and Pierce scored 26 and 16 on Artest. Artest on the other hand went 11 for 34 in those two games. When Lebron played Artest last year, James went on to score 26 on RonRon. So in the end, I doubt there would be a huge upgrade of defense with Artest against big time East sf.
Pierce shot 50% on the series, with a TS% higher than his regular season averages. And Prince wasn’t doing much on the other end to give Pierce anything worth worrying about. He was fantastic in the other series this year and killed Iguodala, but he struggled against Pierce and didn’t provide much resistance to LeBron last year. He is great against most perimeter players, but he doesn’t play well against players like those two.
Artest really worked harder on offense than defense this year, and no one else on the Kings even posed a semi-credible defensive threat. Needless to say, the team’s defense was pretty woeful. I’m still not convinced that he’s a lockdown guy like he was in his Pacer years, but even with a team that only played on side of the floor, he was still a capable defender. I’m not convinced this is a move that really helps the team over the hump, though.
“Prince is also the only one of our starters with any future potential. His game still could substantially improve. Haven’t we seen the best of Artest?”
They’re both 28 years old — why does Tay inherently have more unrealized potential?
mw- i think people believe they haven’t seen the best of tay because he’s never been a 1st option or a 2nd option and has barely been a 3rd option most of the time. artest played 25 less games and still had more FG attempts than tay. to me it’s not an age question. it’s an opportunity question. it would be interesting to see what would happen if tay got rip’s looks at the basket.
I agree with the person who said Tay is a glue-guy, too, which is pretty intangible. It seems like the guys in the front office like him (there have been articles written comparing him to Dumars with his quiet poise and leadership) and he’s probably a good guy to have around in the locker room because his calmness probably helps others relax. I’m just basing this off my own experience in the work place, where certain employees are loose cannons and can get everyone riled up (Sheed?) while others are the voice of reason and can bring folks back down (Tay?).
I wouldn’t mind this trade just to mix stuff up. The problem is, this and every other trade rumor is a load!
Prince held LeBron James to 42% and twelve points under his average over the course of their meetings this season. That seems like resistance to me.
The fact that Paul Pierce scored his average and shot 50% is not why we lost to Boston. Artest would not have kept Pierce to much less than 19, if that. Pointing out the fact that Artest had a weak Sac defense to play with doesn’t really apply, as in the Boston series you can only double one of the three, so he would be called to play him man defense the majority of the time. It’s not like McDyess is that much more feared than Brad Miller, as sad of a fact as that is.
Artest is a better offensive player? Well, Prince shoots the ball at 46%, Artest 43%. Prince is also better from 3, turns the ball over half as much, and fouls less than half as much as Artest. If Prince had five to six more shots a game, he would easily average the 16 that Artest has over his career.
The only upgrade is in weight. Artest does weigh more. Way to go Ron Artest!
Prince doesn’t inherently have more potential. He seems to have more potential because typically players grow season to season and then peak. Perhaps, Prince already has, as over the last few seasons the improvements have been slight, and there have been some decreasing numbers as well. But when you look at Artest there has been a steady decline in his game and his consistency. Artest could bounce back, and this could be a lull as opposed to him already peaking, but when you look at his injuries, his stats and his experience, and most importantly his opportunities as compared to Prince - it seems that there is more potential with Prince. In Sac he was the #1 or #2 guy. Even in Indiana, with Reggie Miller, he was either the biggest or second biggest threat to opposing teams, and yet him and Prince compare pretty evenly. So, because Prince has played the role of the fourth option and hasn’t been given that larger role, or really truly ever been asked to, that’s why I think he has the larger amount of potential - he hasn’t been fully tested well as Artest has.
I’ve explained above (as have others) all the risks that come with Artest but I believe he would be a better matchup against Pierce and Lebron…two strong SF’s that give Tay a little trouble in the playoffs.
Some people have pointed out that Lebron & Pierce averaged more points against Ron Ron then Tay last year, but there are some problems with those numbers;
1) Very small sample size
2) Pace of play…the Pistons played the slowest pace in the league while the Kings played the 8th fastest
3) Defensive Efficiency - Sacramento was 25th while Detroit was 4th. NBA games aren’t just one on one matchups, you need good team defense to hold down great players. This is Sacramento’s group of big men who are responsible for showing and recovering on pick and rolls and defending the paint: Brad Miller, Mikki Moore, Shelden Williams, Kenny Thomas. I feel pretty confident in saying our group of big men would provide much more help.
I like the fact that Artest can be physical with them over a 7 game series. Tay can’t post up against Lebron or Pierce because they are too strong for him. If he can’t post up, his offensive game truly suffers and he’s not making those guys work on defense, which allows them to focus more on the offensive end. That’s not going to change.
I’m on the fence about making a trade for Artest, but if we were playing Boston in a series tomorrow I’d want him over Tay.
“1) Very small sample size”
Is there any evidence that Artest has been exceedingly effective in stopping twos and threes? A small sample size is better than no sample size.
“2) Pace of play…the Pistons played the slowest pace in the league while the Kings played the 8th fastest”
That isn’t enough to explain away the difference.
“3) Defensive Efficiency - Sacramento was 25th while Detroit was 4th. ”
And why do you suppose such a discrepancy exists? Sheed and Chauncey are also good defenders, but Prince is the best defender at his position.
My sense of the Pistons getting Artest at this point is that if it happens it won’t happen until just before the trade deadline.
Joe D., MC and his coaching staff are very high on Sharpe and his potential.
The main question with him is how quickly he can get up to speed on the defensive end. There is no doubt that he has the quickness and length to be a good scorer and defender at the #3.
While Artest is interesting and certainly interesting to discuss, at this point I would prefer to start the year with our current 12 players that we have signed plus Lindsey and Ratliff.
If Plaisted or Washington can earn a contract in October all the much better otherwise starting with these 14 works for me.
Interesting article on some internal Laker strife:
http://hoopshype.com/articles/brown_lazenby.htm
It’s convenient to ignore Prince’s larger body of work against LeBron, like his showing in the playoffs last year. And one of those games LeBron played against Prince this year was one where he scored 15 in 19 minutes (on pace for ~30 points), but left because he got injured. Otherwise, he had one above average game and one awful game against us. Last year in the playoffs, LeBron played poorly the first two games, but in the next three pivotal games, he pretty much got whatever he wanted, and Prince was essentially a no-show on the other side of the floor.
Pierce got his season average using fewer possessions, so he was more efficient than usual. He didn’t really go off like he did against the Lakers, but he was “held” to his averages using fewer possessions (more efficient, in other words), and that’s not something to be proud of when you’re talking about a designated defensive stopper. And holding someone to their season average in the playoffs isn’t really something to write home about anyway, since most players see a dip in their playoff scoring averages.
Prince is a great defender, but I think it’s clear that he has more trouble with those two guys than anyone else, defensively and offensively. And it’s not like that’s insignificant since we’ve run into them the last two years, and it’s likely that we’ll have to face them again soon. I don’t know if Artest is the answer, but it’s still an issue the team should look to address.
Kevin S…IMO when you factor in the 2 game sample size against Lebron and Pierce, along with the pace of play difference, as well as the fact that Detroit has a far superior team defense around Tay compared to the Kings team defense around Artest it’s hard to put a lot of weight towards the ppg those guys scored against Detroit and Sacramento last regular season.
We can endlessly argue the merits of Tay’s and Artest’s respective careers.
Off the court- no contest. Tay wins
Defense- Artest won defensive player of the year (NBA politics aside, coaches & media watch more matchups than I ever will. Artest wins (I dont like it but I believe it. sidenote: I love me some taytay playoff game saving blocks)
I’m more interested in the conversations about who is/could be the better offensive weapon. I like the idea that tay could be more of an offensive threat if he were promoted to 1st or 2nd option, but I wonder why hasn’t gotten that chance on a team that needs a backcourt player who can breakdown defenses and get to the basket? I think its outside of his limitations. He can backdown smaller weaker defenders for the baby hook. He jab steps bigger slower defenders for the 20 footer, and he hits the open 3. Jim made a good point about Tay’s reliance on but inability to back down beefier wingers. With out that move, he’s not a go to scorer and doesn’t command a double team. Playoff caliber SF’s, most recently, pierce & lebron (back in 2004 it was Jefferson) take that away from him and he disappears. Also, VS those guys, his perimiter game is limited to the open 3. His shot mechanics aren’t conducive to being an off the dribble jump shooter. Tay plays within himself and is one of the better teammates to play with in the NBA, but he’s no go to scorer.
The last Artest memories I have that don’t involve me shaking my and laughing out loud are back in the 2004 playoffs with Indiana. It was an ugly defensive series where the teams broke 80 just 3 times. He was the 1st or 2nd option the whole series. (A series we could have lost if not for a timely block by Tay. Ahh, memories) I think he’d be a slight upgrade offensively. Artest.
Now whats joes cell?
Jim,
I don’t put a lot of weight it in either. But there is plenty of sample size available to suggest that Ron Artest might not even be able to play against LeBron or Pierce.
If we had run into a Tim Duncan type of player for the last several years, I could see some sort of personnel management designed to get around him. I have never heard of trading away a core member of a team just to keep pace with the second best player on a team, or the best player on the fifth best team in the conference.
Oh, yeah. Props to Quick Darshans for the conspiracy theory that David Stern wouldn’t allow a team with Sheed and Artest to beat an NBA poster child (lebron, KG, D-wade)
With the roster as currently constructed I find it interesting that most people seem to think that backup SF is the greatest area of need. Most of the posts that don’t involve trades are about the Josh Childresses and CJ Mileses of the world.
I would argue that the greatest area of need is a future post presence for when Sheed and Dyess are gone.
With Chauncey, Rip, Tay, Stuckey and Afflalo, I think the 1-3 positions are good for many years (especially if Sharpe is the real deal).
I like Maxiell, Amir and Samb but only Maxiell has shown that he can be a consistent scorer. All of them have shown that they are or will be capable of rotation minutes. But, not one of them is a slam dunk starter yet.
Maxiell has to prove he can handle stater’s minutes as an undersized PF. Amir likewise has to show he can handle the banging as a slim PF. And Samb and Plaisted need to stay in the oven a little longer.
To me, this is a greater concern than finding someone to backup/replace Tayshaun.
As for potential, what has Prince shown that warrants consideration as a second option? He has a decent post game that works on a limited set of players. He’s also a decent enough ballhandler to get past some guys, but that’s something he doesn’t do often because he’s so risk-averse. Overall, he’s not that efficient a scorer. He’s 28, and he’s never exceeded his 04-05 production. That was where he was at his most efficient, and when he broke out that year, I had faith that he would grow further, but he’s pretty much stayed at the same level. That’s not bad, mind you, since he’s still one of the better small forwards out there offensively. But these are essentially Prince’s prime years, and it’s hard to expect big strides to stardom from here.
Whoever said he could improve was obviously right. He’s actually a pretty mediocre jumpshooter. He’s okay from 3 point range, but he doesn’t take them with much frequency, and he’s not really a lights out guy. His in between game is also pretty bad, and he took more midrange jumpers than he usual last season, and those aren’t great shots for him. If he can improve accuracy on those shots, though, that would make him a more complete inside-out player, and it opens things up for the team offensively.
And if Artest is the solution, it’s not like the team would only be trading Prince just to deal with LeBron and Pierce. Artest is a more dangerous offensive player, a better rebounder, and he is still a good defensive player, although he wasn’t as good as he used to be as a Pacer. The issue is whether it’s worth sacrificing a great glue guy for someone who might lose his head or fail to recognize stronger offensive threats on the team.
DAMN RIGHT.
FREE RICK MAHORN.
LESLIE IS A CLOWN, AND THE WNBA AND THE NBA GO HAND IN HAND INTO FLAMES.
If you got Artest, you would upgrade the 3. Artest > Prince, how it is. Artest, however, is only worth Prince and not much else. Delusions of Kings getting 3-4 of our starters and sending us all their crap are just what they are . . . biased, selfish, far from equal value. Detroit isn’t in the position of needing to start over and rebuild. That’s the big joke from Dumars’s rants after the C’s series . . . everyone assumed Joe Dumars as Mad As Hell, Not Gonna Take It Anymore, which was right. Then they applied the thought, and suddenly it meant Mad As Hell, FIRE SALE!!!!!!!1
There could have been zero changes, and Detroit woulda done the same thing next year. You think the Suns have fallen apart at any time during their almost famous runs? Well, up until they made a drastic change and brought Fat and Old Shaq to the fold. Marion for Shaq was ridiculous. Shaq isn’t worth Nazr Mohammed. They’re screwed.
It may be a rigged league, but for Detroit’s sporting posterity, let us not wish to blow up this team and devolve the level of quality to that of a Mateen Cleaves charity event.
QD…You raise some very valid points. The front court has a chance to be the topic of conversation next summer here on DBB. I think we need to see the development of Amir, Max and even Samb next year to get a better idea of what they can bring to the table. As much as Sheed frustrates me sometimes, there is no denying he brings some unique skills to our big guys that will need to be replaced once he leaves.
This is sort of piggybacking QD’s point, but if I’m wanting to risk me some crazy, why not David Harrison? He’s big, physical, and agressive. He’d come cheap. He’s got skills on both ends of the court. He hasn’t gotten on the court enough for us to really be able to know if he could develop into someone who could play a vital role for us at center, but it seems a pretty low risk-decent reward sort of move especially considering how overpaid legit seven-footers still are (see: Diop, Desagna).
Good player, low price. Good Defender. We get another player also. Pull the trigger.
we need a C more than a SF, leave TAY alone!!! I´ll be death before I see Ron Ron on a Pistons jersey.
Shinons: My first thought was David Harrison is a complete scrub. My second thought was, this must be because you lived in Bloomington at some point in the last five years and perhaps have a mild tendency to be Indiana-centric (I know I have it myself a lot of the time). My third thought was, wait a minute first two thoughts, this guy couldn’t possibly produce much less than Primoz Brezec, and for what would probably be just more than half of Brezec’s already paltry price from last season, where’s the risk here? Worst that happens is David Harrison continues to fail drug tests, get in brawls, and becomes the next in a long list of revolving-door 15th men. Best that happens is, he puts people on their asses in the paint and blocks shots in limited minutes. I believe this would make a big (positive) difference on our team’s dynamic without actually asking anything out of Harrison that he’s not capable of doing. I say bravo to you sir and a job well done. Save a spot for me on that bandwagon. I mean come on Joe, at least bring him in for a workout or dinner or something.
I think if Harrison had value, he would have gotten more minutes with O’Neal constantly hurt.
The Pacers see Hibbert as a better option. That should say something.
I’m not sure there are any free agents that address the glaring need I talked about.
I think Kwame Brown is a great defensive player but he’s useless on offense.
Are there any good Euro big men (an oxymoron, I know) that some team has the rights to? Marc Gasol?
David Harrison fouls more frequently than Amir, and he fouls on the offensive end. He wouldn’t crack our rotation. To the extent we have a problem with our frontcourt, there isn’t anyone in free agency who is going to solve it.
Wow, LB can apparently talk himself into anything. This is the first time I’ve ever heard of a David Harrison bandwagon. He is a legitimately unique player in that he can foul out in seven minutes and he’s great at fudging rotations to go for a block. He’s also a walking turnover.
Hey look! Oklahoma City has a bunch of crappy centers, and most of them probably don’t even have homes! Let’s grab one.
Come on. The Pistons need front court help, but they’re not so desperate as to start looking into the most marginal of players.
QD: I think Harrison was actually bounced out of the rotation by JO at the end of the season when JO came back. When JO came back, Harrison had been playing serviceable minutes but he got inactivated immediately. If I had Foster, Murphy and JO at my disposal, I wouldn’t waste my time w/Harrison either. The Pistons don’t have guys like that at their disposal though.
Also, being a member of The Brawl-crew and then getting a five-game suspension in January for failing a drug test all but killed Harrison’s standing with the very public crusade to remove thugs from the squad taken on by the Pacers brass. I figure that’s the largest reason why the Pacers don’t wont pursue Harrison and are simultaneously destroying Shawne Williams in the media right now.
Kevin S.: While I totally understand that Harrison’s foul rate is about 40% greater than Amir’s in comparable minutes, I don’t see why that’s a big detractor for an end of the rotation bruiser. He’d be coming on the cheap, and his sole purpose would be to inject physicality in the paint. I’d love to see Harrison (or a comparably sized player) in a Pistons uniform go face-to-face with Perkins et al. No one is scared to take it into the paint against us anymore. In fact, teams love to do so with Ben gone. It’s just my opinion, but I don’t think that you’re going to win a title or even a conference championship if you allow more points in the paint than you score. If we win the points in the paint battle, any opponent is gonna have a helluva time beating us. I’m not saying Harrison is the answer to winning that battle, but I echo every word of QD’s concerns about plugging the paint with someone who has a passion for smashin’ (I think pre-requisites are being 6′11 and weighing at least 250).
If Harrison patrolled the paint for us for like 10-15 minutes per game, that would essentially be his only job and I think he’d do it well. I think it would help allow us to continue to dictate the game’s pace and not let things get out of hand. I think Harrison has the passion for smashin’ and that we should be taking a real hard look at guys like Kwame Brown and Davis Harrison if they’re going come on the cheap (ie: < half of the MLE). Hell, I’m sure Joe is already “taking a look” at the very least. Joe’s probably just biding his time. As far as I know, with the official addition of Sharpe and Bynum, we only have 12 plays under contract currently. That means Joe has three spots left to hand out, presumably between: Theo, Herrmann, Lindsey, potential backup SF not currently on our roster and potential backup C not currently on our roster. I have no idea which 3 are going to win that battle, but I can’t wait to find out.
Well– Ellis is staying Golden State. I hope the options for Biedrins remain open…
The Warriors also matched for Azubuike, which is $9 for three years. With Turiaf, Marcus Williams, Kelenna, Ellis, and Maggette, and depending on how their contracts are structured, they are probably right around the cap. That’s going to make Biedrins pretty difficult to resign. I’m not sure what Mullen is doing. I would have forgone all the minor moves (the first three in the list above) and paid Maggette more in the range of $7-8 million a year (more than anyone else had) in an effort to get Biedrins locked up. Unless they’re willing to take a big luxury tax hit, I’d say he’s gone.
Not feeling the Harrison love, by the way.
Er, Kelenna’s contract is $9 million, obviously. But man, with all those 9 dollar contracts floating around, no wonder players are fleeing for Europe.
I think we should try and make a move for Joel Pryzbilla. Probably becoming redundant in Portland, and a very solid rebounder and shot blocker, the kind of big we could use. Just a thought.
David Harrison? Really? Amir can’t get 10-15 minutes, where on Earth is Harrison getting them?
Kwame Brown? Seriously? I think it’s sound policy to not employ a player who was the wrong end of the most lopsided trade in history.
Artest for Tayshaun is a lateral move. Tay’s defense is not the problem. When Pierce went off, WE WON. At some point you have to understand that Paul Pierce and LeBron James ARE TOP 5 PLAYERS IN THE NBA AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO DEFEND THEM IN A SATISFACTORY MANNER NO MATTER WHO PLAYS THE 3. We did not lose to Cleveland in 07 because of LeBron, we lost because Drew Gooden was actually something other than useless and Boobie Gibson introduced himself to the world. We did not lose to Boston in 08 because Tay couldn’t defend Pierce.
People around here have lost their friggen minds.
Sorry, let me be clear about Harrison. It would be one of the worst ideas ever. It’s probably a worse idea than Kwame Brown.
I cannot believe that there’s a post titled “Would the Pistons actually trade for Ron Artest?” and we’re talking about bringing him AND David Harrison? Yeah, let’s team them with Rasheed and see which one of the 3 can be the first to cause me to punch a hole in my wall.
What do Harrison and Brown bring that Theo Ratliff does not? I’ve not seen a sufficient answer to that question yet. Theo’s a big dude. He might not be 250, but he can D up in the post. I thought he was actually pretty good in his limited amount of minutes.
Oh, and about Tay. I think the natural reaction is for people to look at what happened and go, “oh, well LeBron plays for the Cavs and they beat us in 07, and Pierce plays for the Celtics and they beat us in 08, and Prince had to defend each guy, so he must be to blame.” This is a lazy thought process. I defy you to name me one player in the NBA who has effectively guarded LeBron James. How about Paul Pierce? Those guys don’t exactly exist right now. Nobody in the league is drawing that assignment for 35 minutes a night in a 7 game series and doing a good job. Do I have to remind everybody that we beat Boston on a night where their Big 3 went for 75 combined points and did just about everything you could possibly ask them to do? We won that game because we locked everybody else down and made those 3 guys beat us. Tayshaun Prince’s defense is not the problem. TEAM DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM. I do not see how you improve our team defense when you remove our best individual defender from the equation.
Seriously, people around here are losing their f-ing minds.
“While I totally understand that Harrison’s foul rate is about 40% greater than Amir’s in comparable minutes, I don’t see why that’s a big detractor for an end of the rotation bruiser.”
First off, Amir is at the end of the rotation. He would be taking minutes away from a much better player. Second, offensive fouls piss away points. We would lose points while he was on the court. Harrison’s version of bruising is known as a foul in the NBA.
As a rebounder, he is akin to Spellcheck and Stuckey, so I don’t see why you would want to see him against Perkins.
“It’s just my opinion, but I don’t think that you’re going to win a title or even a conference championship if you allow more points in the paint than you score.”
Did we score more points in the paint than we allowed against the Lakers when we won the championship? Maybe we did, but I would be awfully surprised. Where does this opinion come from?
“What do Harrison and Brown bring that Theo Ratliff does not?”
Incompetence?
@Other Matt, Kevin S.:
“What do Harrison and Brown bring that Theo Ratliff does not?”
Precisely. I don’t see how Harrison is an improvement over Ratliff.
Other Matt, you raise some good points, but I don’t know. Sure, Tayshaun Prince held Pierce, one of the best scorers in the league, to under 20 points a game, but I bet if we traded him for Ron Artest, when we faced Boston again Pierce wouldn’t score a single basket. He’d be so scared of Artest he would never show his face in the NBA. He’d quit for sure. He’d quit and no one would ever hear from him again. He’d long for the days when he had that skinny old Tayshaun Prince fella guarding him. Oh, those were the days. Torching old Prince night in and night out for, brace yourselves, nearly 20 points a game. Not just any old 20, but the most important 20 points of the game. Scratch that. The only 20 points that even mattered. OK, sure he didn’t shoot the highest percentage of the starters, not even second highest, or even score the most points. And pay no attention to the fat guy on Pierce’s team who we allow to get offensive rebounds and uncontested shots over and over. He doesn’t matter. Forget the game when he only scored 11. That’s all he felt like scoring. Obviously. And forget the 6 or so at the FT line a game, and the couple baskets a night when Rip switched on him or a bench player was on him, those don’t matter. It’s those few baskets when ol’ Tayshaun Prince couldn’t stop him, those were the baskets that beat us. Yes, I’ve got to think that Artest would have made all the difference. Hey, while we’re at it maybe we should pick up David Harrison - I hear that Kevin Garnett fella might have scored a few buckets, don’t quote me, all I can remember is Paul Pierce.
Other Matt: Kendrick Perkins was the starting center on the NBA champion this year. Fabricio Oberto was the starting center on the NBA champion the year before that. Nazr Mohammed was there for San Antonio in 2005. It’s not so much that we’ve lost our mind, it’s that the NBA today is simply devoid of offensively-skilled centers on NBA Champions (especially now that Shaq’s era is over). The 2000s sport four titles for Shaq, four titles for teams with centers who offer little more on offense than put-backs but are willing to hang in the paint all game. Before that, the center on champions gave you more than 5 or 6 points per game and often had go-to moves (usually at least a hook for starters) away from the hoop. David Robinson, Moses Malone, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Hakeem Olajuwon aren’t walking through that door. Hell, James Edwards isn’t even walking through that door.
Point being, today’s NBA team doesn’t NEED to have a center with any real offensive firepower to get the title, it just needs a guy who can occupy space in the paint. I just would like to see somebody wearing a Detroit Pistons jersey and playing the position of center to happily occupy some space in the paint. I’m worried that I’m going to have to wait until Rasheed’s contract ends to see that day.
Juicebox, in your very sarcastic post, I think you might have stumbled on to a good point. Maybe Tay doesn’t struggle to defend bigger 3s, but instead struggles to score against bigger 3s. I’m not going to look up the stats at 2 am, but maybe there’s some truth to that theory.
Also, while I’m addressing your obviously sarcastic post in a serious manner, how does Artest fit in with us offensively? I don’t get it. We lose a point-forward who’s capable of running our offense for a few minutes per night in exchange for someone who’s basically the same defensively and cannot replicate what Tay gives us offensively. I have a hunch that Prince’s eFG% is probably much better than Artest’s. Again, it’s 2 am, I’m not looking it up.
Sasha Vujacic may be available at an affordable price. The Lakers are apparently lowballing him and no one else seems to be interested.
LB, I’d argue that had we actually made a legitimate attempt to defend Perkins and make him earn his numbers, he would not have been a starting center on an NBA Champion. I don’t know how this notion of “we must find somebody to be Kendrick Perkins” became widely accepted by members of our little DBB community. Yes, let’s fight mediocre with mediocre! The Pistons made their money and won their 04 title by staying home and forcing the superstars to beat them. We beat the Lakers by playing Kobe and Shaq straight up and making everybody else earn it. We had success doing that against Boston this year. I don’t know why we went away from it. We don’t need somebody mediocre to battle big fat Perkins, we just need Rasheed or McDyess or Max to body him up and make him earn it.
I agree with everything Other Matt said except for the Kwame Brown stuff. The fact that Kwame Brown was on the other end of the Pau Gasol trade is irrelevant. Until we know the price of Kwame Brown it’s hard to know if he’s worth having on the team as a backup C. It’s hard to judge the deal without that variable. I think at the same price most people would prefer Kwame Brown over David Harrison or Patrick O’Bryant who the Celtics just signed to backup Kendrick Perkins.
@Other Matt:
“I don’t know how this notion of “we must find somebody to be Kendrick Perkins” became widely accepted by members of our little DBB community.”
You and I are on the same page with that one (Legion of Doom, baby). Here’s some reminiscing:
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2008-07-02/detroits-looking-at-perimeter-players/#comment-141394
We’re talkin’ ’bout PERKINS, man? Perkins, man.
Other Matt, the point of my post was not that the Pistons should sign Kwame Brown. The point was that finding an eventual replacement for what Sheed provides (low post scoring, low post defense, rebounding) is a MUCH greater concern than a backup/replacement for Tayshaun.
When I mentioned Kwame Brown it was to say that he provides defense but not offense (i.e. that he wasn’t a suitable replacement for Sheed). You’re probably confused because I advocated signing Kwame before. I changed my mind (although I still think the Lions should sign him).
I really don’t know what the answer is to the Sheed/Dyess hole (which may come as early as next year). But, the Pistons front office should worry more about that than trades involving the SF position.
Kevin S.: I’d rather talk this season and moving forward because I hate to factor in the anomaly that is the four championship-era Shaq, but if you insist on going back to 2004 … Shaq got a lot of points paint in the ‘04 Finals. You won’t catch me disputing that. Fortunately, we felt like scoring in the paint on offense instead of avoiding it like a plague. Hell, Ben had 18 points in Game 5 against the Lakers and only made 2 FTs in that game despite going to the line for eight attempts. He averaged 7 FTA/game for the 2004 Finals (to 3.6 on the season and 5.1 on the playoffs as a whole). The guy was clearly active in the paint and we got a lot more opportunities in the paint and from the free throw line back in those days. I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess that most if not all of those other 16 points Ben had in Game 5 came in the paint. So what if Shaq scored a lot of points there? It’s not like we didn’t do a good job putting more of a lid on Kobe’s penetration. We didn’t phone it in on the battle for the paint is my point. And we also OBLITERATED the Nets in the paint before that. Interestingly, they didn’t have Shaq on their team.
Personally, I’d like to look at this season where in Game 1 against Boston the points in the paint shook out to 42-18. That’s awful. We only managed 18 points in the paint the whole game? Points in the paint on offense is about penetration and big bodies (I’m counting on you, Mr. Stuckey). Let’s play bookends to check a progression … We put up 18 points in the paint in Game 6 as well. Luckily for us, the Celtics only put in 32. Oh yeah, we still lost that game and 2 other games in between Games 1 and 6. Let’s look at that series as a whole … it was a margin of 206-130 points in the paint in favor of Boston. That means in the other 4 games we averaged 23.5 points in the paint per game. That comes out to an average -12.7 per game deficit for us head-to-head with Boston. I’m going to guess that in spite of Shaq having a couple of 30+ point games, we didn’t lose the points in the paint battle against the Lakers by an average of 12.7 per game. When I get my hands on the exact numbers, I’ll let you know. By the way, if you’re wondering how the story of this season ends, it’s with The Celtics winning the title.
Perkins sucks, but as much as it pains me to say it, our interior defense probably sucks worse. Sheed doesn’t like patrolling the interior as much without having Ben there to help him. I’d like to see us make an honest effort to cut down on points in the paint discrepancies reaching 12.7 against teams that have Kendrick Perkins and Rajon Rondo spending a fair amount of time in the paint with ball in their hands.
Thanks for the compliments LB. I knew that there wouldn’t be a lot of love for the Harrison idea. Living in Indianapolis, I definitely have to settle for watching more Pacers games than I would care to. My thought has always been that the Pacers were dumb not to give Harrison more time, that he was one of the few players on that roster with genuine upside (yes, Granger and Shawne Williams included).
He accumulates fouls because he plays with a mean streak. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a 7′0, 280 pound guy on the roster with a mean streak? Especially if we can get him for pennies? Even a guy like Kwame Brown would command some significant dollars, but Harrison could be really cheap (and I’m big on low-risk moves that could have some reward). I fine with being pretty much alone on this, but I also think he could actually be effective and have some upside. Still, this is just idle talk in lieu of Joe D. finally pulling off a real deal.
Personally, Harrison seems to me like the ideal guy to go play in Europe - he could get more PT, out-muscle all those soft Euro big men, and…well, it’s legal.
If we are talking about points in the paint, all the blame shouldn’t go on just the big guys although they do deserve a good chunk of it. We also need to give a portion of the blame to the guards. CB mostly but Rip as well, just aren’t as good as they used to be at keeping guards in front of them. A lot of the damange Perkins did was because of dribble penetration…causing our big guys to rotate and help which led to him being wide open.
When did we play our best ball in the Boston series? When we had Stuckey and Lindsey in…two guards who could pressure the ball and do a good job of keeping their player in front of them. Stuckey and Lindsey had the best +/- of all of our players in the Boston series…both of them finished the series +23 when they were on the floor…Rip was at -3 overall, while Billups was at -48.
I watched the same season and playoffs everybody else here did– what exactly did Theo Ratliffe do to warrant any type of welcome back? All he did was steal all of Amir’s minutes just when he was starting to hit his stride. And then in the playoffs he stole Max’s minutes (especially in the second half). I seem to remember Flip playing Theo over Max even in games where Max had his shot going. Ever since the ‘05 Finals (when LB took out Dyess in the 4th quarter of game seven when he was HOT), I feel like we’ve had a problem giving minutes to veterans because they’re veterans instead of giving minutes to young guys when they’ve earned it.
And be honest, people– if Kwame Brown came on the cheap (I’m talking 1/2 MLE or cheaper), you know he’d be a good pickup. The guy’s like 25, washed up, a former lottery pick, castaway Wizard– sounds like half of our ‘04 championship squad. He can defend (he CAN! I’ve seen it! I swear!), he can rebound, he dunks the ball pretty well (I’ve seen him put up some GNARLY dunk/bricks, you know, the ones where the ball ends up on the other side of the court), he can catch alley-oops– and he’s HUGE. That’s the main thing. He’s HUGE and athletic. All we need is a body, and honestly, he’s the second biggest in the NBA behind D Howard. Just throw like $2-3 mil at the guy. Maybe he turns out good. He’s never really been on a quality organization (unless you call the Kobe-tatorship from ‘04-07 in Lakerland a quality organization). Give him a chance. A really cheap, no risk chance.
CORRECTION:
With the Warriors matching the Clips’ offer on Azabuike (sp?), we need to throw every penny of the MLE at Beidrins. Matching will put GS over the luxury tax– and the second-most-rediculous haircut in the NBA will be ours! (#1? AK47)
So ignore the Kwame thing. Unless we can’t get Beidrins. Then throw some chump change at Kwame.
Again, “holding” your guy to their season average during the playoffs when they use fewer possessions to get it is not impressive or good, especially since the Boston series was often a slow struggle for points. And again, Prince was pretty miserable offensively against him. The matchup with Pierce definitely wasn’t the biggest problem in the series, but I wish someone would acknowledge that it was a problem.
The more pertinent problems were the inability to do anything about Kevin Garnett (I thought he’d have trouble with Sheed, but he was “held” to more than his season averages!) and the team’s poor showing on the boards (-45 for the series, I think). Except McDyess, who was very good, none of the starters on the team were good rebounders for their position, and some, like Rip and Rasheed, were pretty bad. The team overall wasn’t too bad at rebounding during the regular season because everyone on the Zoo Crew is a good rebounder, but they all had reduced roles in that series.
Agreed with Joel on Ratliff. The guy didn’t really do squat, and it’s hard to imagine Johnson doing much worse if you just relegated him to the same types of cleanup duties.
MLE’s not cutting it for Biedrins unless he really, really wants to be in Detroit. He’s getting offers from Europe, so realistically it’d have to be a sign and trade deal.
Joel: the problem throwing the full MLE at Biedrins is that I think GS matches. 5.5M/yr for Biedrins is certainly cheap, I don’t think he signs the offer sheet and goes and plays in Europe, even though he would like to play in the NBA from what I’ve read. He’d be better off signing a one year tender and becoming an UFA next year where he’d command more than the MLE and would get it from someone.
I still think we should sign Nenard Kristk to an offer sheet. He’ll come cheaper than Biedrins, NJ I think won’t match and we could sign him for two years with a 2nd year team option. Biedrins will be looking for a longer-term deal. If Krisitck works out, we pick up the team option and we still clear his salary in 2010. If he doesn’t, we can flush him at the end of this season and no harm done.
Biedrins has absolutely no offensvie game. As Kristick can hit a 15 footer. Plus, he’d be playing for a contract this year and next. Perhaps we sweeten the 2nd year or something. But I believe Kristick would come cheaper than Beidrins.
Biedrins has a pretty limited offensive game, although it’s still better than what he showed in Golden State because no one ever passes to the post in Golden State. He excelled at finishing the rare inside pass and cleaning up on missed jumpers. They went bombs away in Golden State, but there’s no shortage of those in Detroit, either. The hack-a-Biedrins thing doesn’t even work that well anymore, even though his form is still hideous. He’d fit in well, and he’s well worth it for the right price. He’s not the beefy enforcer LB is looking for, but he can block shots and he’s one of the best rebounders in the league, especially on the offensive end.
I don’t see Biedrins signing for any less than $7.5/yr. I don’t think that’s inflated, either… He’s worth at least that, he’s got a lot of underexplored potential.
@MarkButter:
“Biedrins has absolutely no offensvie game.”
I’d respectfully disagree. Yes, his shot mechanics are ugly, he doesn’t have range, but he’s head and shoulders above players like Ben Wallace and Marcus Camby on offense. The guy’s shot selection is unreal– he knows when to put the ball in the basket. He shot 63% this last season. When given solid, regular minutes (30+), the guy is unreal on both ends of the court. While he may not be able to extend far beyond the post, we have way too many players that can. When he’s in the post, he’s dynamite.
I really, really hope he doesn’t take any of these Russian offers… I’d love to see a sign and trade for this guy.
OT: wooooooooooowwwww!!!
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/1a5c5283b3
Mike P: “but he’s head and shoulders above players like Ben Wallace and Marcus Camby on offense. ”
No offense, but I couldn’t have made my case any better. Would we want Wallace on our team now as is, ignoring the past or pretending it didn’t happen? No.
Camby can at least step out of the lane and and make a bucket on a consistent basis. Beidrins? No.
Most of his buckets come from put backs or, as Paul M. states “the rare inside pass.” (great statement Paul). Heck, I think Paul ?? (guy from Mich St that was with the Clips and blew his ACL) has a better offensive game than Beidrins and I think could play adequate D and would come woefully cheaper.
We all saw how much the Pistions struggled with O when Wallace was here, Beidrins isn’t a credible O threat unless he’s cleaning the boards and part of the problem with the Pistons has been stagnant, stand-around-and-watch offensive sets.
We’ll have to respectfully disagree.
Biedrins…
No way he signs a MLE deal with any other team b/c the Warriors will gladly match and he deserves more. He either signs an extension with the Warriors, signs the 1 year qualifying offer, and becomes an unrestrictred FA next summer, sign & trade or he goes to Europe.
Biedrins doesn’t have range, but he has a very good touch around the basket. As a team we miss tons of layups, so he would be a welcome addition. He would also be a boost to our economy…hair gel sales would immediately go up 15% in south eastern michigan.
In the last 3 years his PER has gone from 13.6 to 16.2 to 19.2, he just turned 22 and he’s 7 feet tall. Over the next couple years our team will begin to play more uptempo as the core guys get traded, move on, and get reduced playing time. Biedrins would be a great addition to the team…Golden State would be out of their minds if they didn’t pay him what he deserves and looked to sign and trade him instead.
@MarkButter:
“We’ll have to respectfully disagree.”
Fair enough. Just to clarify my point, I’m certainly not comparing Biedrins’ game to Wallace or Camby. I use those guys as examples of dominant 5s with zero offensive game. Biedrins isn’t one of them. Like I said, “he’s head and shoulders above players like Ben Wallace and Marcus Camby on offense.” By “head and shoulders”, I mean “a lot”.
I often scratch my head with the shots at Biedrins’ offensive game. Last season, he scored in double digits in all but 5 games where he played > 30 minutes (of 29 total games above 30 mins). The guy score 20+ points six times last season. Yeah, this all happens in the post, but last I checked, we don’t have a post player who can play the 5 spot.
@Jim:
“He would also be a boost to our economy…hair gel sales would immediately go up 15% in south eastern michigan.”
+1
The rest of your comment:
I’m with you 100%. I don’t understand how Golden State couldn’t make signing he and Ellis their first priority. I understand Davids threw them for a loop, but that’s no excuse. The only thing I can think of is that Nellie has never understood how to properly get the most out of Biedrins. Perhaps its not worth paying him since he’s not the ideal fit for their system. I’m no GM, but I’d rather change the system than move Biedrins.
The rare pass inside was mostly a statement on Golden State’s offensive priorities, which was to look for transition opportunities first, a three or a midrange shot next, and then going to the post as a last resort. He’s not going to back his man down in the post like Shaq or Yao, but he is skilled enough to go around players for lay-ins and he does have an effective hook shot. And unlike Ben Wallace, he cannot be completely ignored on the offensive end since he’s such a high percentage player (10.5 points on 63% shooting is nothing to scoff at), and he hits the offensive boards hard. Besides, with a team with this many jumpshooters, someone whose priority is to clean up isn’t going to be a bad thing.
Yeah, I don’t understand GS’s plan either. They got Ellis on a fairly reasonable deal, but overpaid Maggette, Turiaf, matched for Kelenna, and got Marcus Williams. Maggette is a decent player, but they paid $5 million a year more than anyone else could have. The rest are okay bench players that don’t really have a chance of matching Biedrins’ impact. Now they can’t come up with an offer for Biedrins that isn’t going to be insulting without going over the luxury tax.
“The Pistons made their money and won their 04 title by staying home and forcing the superstars to beat them.”
Exactly.
“Hell, Ben had 18 points in Game 5 against the Lakers and only made 2 FTs in that game despite going to the line for eight attempts. ”
Ben was unconscious that game, hitting jumpers and everything else. He even attempted a three, if I recall correctly.
New article from Langlois on Pistons.com
http://truebluepistons.blogspot.com/
Talks mostly about filling the back up SF with Rip/Afflalo in order to get enough minutes for Stuckey, Rip, CB, Tay, and Afflalo.
He also had this to say;
Rodney Stuckey reportedly played very well for the U.S. Select Team as its week of practice against the U.S. Olympic team wound down. Stuckey played off the ball, curiously enough, as Derrick Rose, O.J. Mayo and Jerryd Bayless took turns at the point, struggling to get the ball up court against the Olympic team.
This is a little late, but THANK YOU Other Matt for the sanity check! I agree with everything but Theo–he’s garbage. Loved him in his prime, but in the playoffs he was one of the most fustrating pistons players to watch since William Bedford.
And um…I don’t know if anyone noticed this but Ron Artest…he’s kinda crazy…like FOR REAL crazy.
“He accumulates fouls because he plays with a mean streak. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a 7′0, 280 pound guy on the roster with a mean streak?”
The kind of mean streak that picks up touch fouls on the offensive end? No, I am not interested in that kind of mean streak.
The Lakers outscored us by an average of 2.8 points in the paint in the finals. We beat the daylights out of them regardless. We were even with the Nets and Pacers. The next year, the Heat outscored us by 6.3 in the paint and we beat them anyway.
Mike P: Disagree we will..lol
I understand your point, but his offensive game is more related to Nellie’s system than anything else I believe. I’m too lazy to look up stats but I gotta believe the number of shots the GS takes has got to be the most or very close. I also think Davis with GS probably got Beidrins a bucket or two from dribble-drive-dish and excluding Stuck, we don’t have what I would call a true drive-n-dish point.
let me ask a question: who’s offensive game would you prefer - Beidrins or Pryzbilla’s? I see them both doing basically the same thing at the D end, Beidrins a rebound or two more I think, but essentially the same.
I just really think Beidrins game, both on O and D rebounding (because of Nellie’s system causing the opposing team to frequently have unfav matchups when boxing out on the O side) inflates Beidrins numbers. Would I like to sign him? In a heart beat, but probably at 8-9M and if GS matched Azubika (sp) they’d match that type of offer yesterday. And if we’re going to give Beidrins 8/9M a year (as an example)what’s Max worth next year assuming his improvement continues?
This “points in the paint” walk down memory lane doesn’t account for the change in the enforcement of the handcheck rules in the NBA. Guards who had took it to the rim suddenly started having more success after the rules which kind of makes it apples and oranges to compare the teams — even if it’s the same players.
“We all saw how much the Pistions struggled with O when Wallace was here”…. “unlike Ben Wallace he can’t be completely ignored on offense”
What? What are people talking about? Has anyone not noticed the fact that we have been starting Antonio McDyess? We only, even with our new Flip Saunders super offense, scored 4 points more a game in the playoffs than we did with “offensively incompetent Ben Wallace.” And Boston from this year was no Indiana series from that year. Our playoff stats this year were almost identical to the year we won:
Prince 10ppg (04)/14ppg (08)
Wallace 13ppg (04)/13ppg (08)
Hamilton 22ppg (04)/22ppg (08)
Billups 16ppg (04)/16ppg (08)
B. Wallace 10ppg (04)/Dyess 9ppg (08)
It’s almost creepy how much things haven’t changed. Note: Prince is the only one that has improved his playoff scoring in the last four years. Also, Ben Wallace outscoring Antonio Dyess. Wasn’t he suppose to be the reason we were such a low scoring team? Wasn’t the Flip-Chauncey co-coaching experiment suppose to change that?
Our top 3 from the bench:
Big Nasty-6/Stuckey-8
Memo-4/Maxiel-5
Mike James-3/Amir-3
Our scoring hasn’t changed at all. Almost all the major playoff stats (fg%, assists, t.o., etc) are identical +/-2. The two exceptions to that are, one, rebounding. Back in 04 and 05 playoffs we were out-rebounding teams 45-41 on average. This year we lost the battle 36-40. Note: Less rebounds overall despite us being “offensively limited.” Nine less rebounds a game is major. That difference is not a bench player kind of difference. It’s not a David Harrison, Kwame Brown difference. No team can get out-rebounded that badly in a series and win the series in the East. The two Wallaces in 04 only had roughly two less rebounds per game than our entire starting lineup did this year. The other glaring stat is that now we allow 9 more points/game, 80 to 89. That’s not a backup C or SF difference at all. Our old style of play left when Ben Wallace quit on us, and we’ve been playing a half-hearted version of it ever since. Half-hearted defense and half the talent=losing to more talented teams and not being able to be the “true team” that can prevail.
Oh yeah, and the guy that keeps on claiming that holding Pierce to his average wasn’t good because no one in the playoffs scores more than his average from the season. That’s preposterous. All of our starters did except Chauncey, who would have if not for leaving the game early due to injury. Kobe did. Odom did. Garnett did. Pierce did in the finals. So on and so forth. The guys that are relied on to do the scoring for teams typically do in the playoffs. Yes, that’s only 1 or 2 guys on each team, but Pierce is that guy for Boston. Plus, the entire point is that Prince’s defense is not the first, second, or fifth reason we lost to Boston. Fixing our eighth problem first doesn’t really make sense.
Juicebox: I agree with your analysis up to the point that the difference in scoring is only 4 pts. That’s HUGE in NBA terms. In fact, and I’m guessing here, but I’d would think that if you took out the lowest three teams and the hightest three teams in terms of scoring, 4 more points per game would vault you from the bottom to the top of what is left of the remaining 24 teams.
If all else is equal, some guy scoring 18-20 points per game can no longer be said to be an improvement above Tay in terms of offense. And given Artest was I beleive ~20 per, why cite it? (not saying you did) I think it’s the type of points. in the paint. outside shooter. in transitition. etc.
The piston offense looked much better this year than it has but we still struggle to have a go-to guy. Sheed could get his on the block anytime he wants to. But we need more of a leadership role from someone on the team. Sort of a get-in-your-face kinda guy. I don’t see that coming from CB (typically the point or 2 guard does this on other teams).
Four points is substantial, you’re right. But the 9 more points we gave up and 9 less rebounds that we accumulated in the playoff are far more troublesome.
I think the whole issue is the fact that over the last couple years we’ve tried to replace Ben Wallace with past-their-prime guys like Chris Webber and Antonio McDyess. Ben was our best player. Rasheed is the most talented. Billups has the most leadership characteristic (i.e. an obnoxious arrogance). But Ben Wallace was why we won the championship. His records and accolades over his tenure with the Pistons puts him a defensive class with Hakeem, David Robinson and Kareem. He was our impact player. And to think of the two guys we tried to replace him with, the whole notion of it seems absurd.
If we want to be the team that we were when we won - Joe needs to address the fact that Ben Wallace was more than a guy that didn’t make free throws and could only score by dunking. He needs to really be replaced. I’m not convinced that a Maxiel and Amir tandem couldn’t do just that. But that would require Curry benching our vets and starting those two to give them the opportunity. That’d never happen. I just wonder if there is anyone out there that actually thinks a Stuckey-Hamilton-Prince-Maxiel-Amir starting lineup with a Billups-Dyess-Wallace bench wouldn’t be better than just sticking with the same, which is wear we are heading it seems. Could Amir and Maxiel possibly score less than 23 and rebound less than 16 board combined? I don’t think so. Couldn’t Stuckey average 17 and 6? If so, then why aren’t we looking to our own roster? It’d give Tayshaun a chance at a larger role. It’s also give us the most experience and talented bench in the league, it’d be unrivaled. If it’s just experience, to me, experience=getting outplayed by Kendrick Perkins. I’m not a big fan of experience any more.
Artest, or any guy mentioned on this post, wouldn’t get us back to the defensive team we were then better than anyone we haven’t given a chance to on our own bench. But if we just want to sort of abandon the Carlisle/Brown grind-out style, then we really need to up our talent level - and then maybe an Artest would be the route to go - it depends entirely on which route the team wants to take.
“Go get me a juicebox.” “You know who I am?” “Yeah, you’re juicebox guy.” (Never saw the movie, but always made me laugh in the commercials.)
juicebox guy makes good points (with stats I actually understand) about the greatest need being a Ben Wallace type (shot blocker, rebounder, physical inside presence). Although I would add low post scorer to that list because Sheed potentially gone next year. Of course, finding that is easily said than done.
I’m not sure about benching the current starters but I’m all in favor of open competition. And if Amir’s energy and athleticism produces more than Sheed’s skills and savvy, then he should get more minutes and possibly start.
Another trade idea (again, this trade idea is to spark discussion. there’s no rumor associated with it. and I don’t necessarily think it’s a great idea. so kindly don’t call me an idiot for bringing it up.):
Sheed and Amir (or other parts) for Yao Ming:
Rationale: Houston has to realize at some point that there’s no way they’ll win a title and dumps Yao’s contract. Pistons get one of the best Centers in the league. But, he’s very injury prone and can likely only handle 24 minutes a game with constant attention from Kander. Also, there’s three years left on his contract if things don’t work out. Oh, and they sell a lot more merchandise in China.
I never said that no one ever scores more than their playoff average. It’s a tendency, not a rule, and it applies to scoring efficiency as well as overall point per game production. The starting Pistons all maintained around their scoring averages, but several of them had to average more minutes to get there, and their scoring efficiency took dips. That’s to be expected. In the playoffs, you face tougher competition, and more intense defensive pressure. But Pierce scored the same as the regular season while shooting better from the floor. I don’t find that impressive. Impressive was making Iguodala look like a scrub and frustrating Turkoglu. Clearly, he can be that kind of frustrating, lock-down player, but it wasn’t there against Pierce.
This is getting kind of ridiculous, especially since I fundamentally agree that this wasn’t the biggest issue against Boston. I also agree with your thought that Maxiell and Johnson can replicate much of Ben’s defensive impact, although at this point they lack his savvy.
@QD:
“Sheed and Amir (or other parts) for Yao Ming”
How about Sheed and Maxiell for Yao, but Houston gets to keep Yao’s big toe?
I’d be in favor of Yao for Sheed and Amir. Even though I really want to see a Maxiel/Amir front court one day, that would be too tough to say no to. Even though Yao has missed 20 or so games over the last three season each, prior to those three, he played a full load - it at least suggests he could play a full season of starter’s minutes again. His only real flaws are that he’s soft and turns the ball over a lot. But Amir will probably face the same criticism, given his frame and his fouling issues, that of course will improve, but to what degree. It actually wouldn’t be bad for Houston either - as they actually play young players, so Amir would develop. And it would give them an outside scorer and veteran in Rasheed.
just a random question datz nothin 2 do wit d trades, ive frequent read the pistons being mentioned as ’stonz’ what does this mean or what connotation does it have?
Hi Kev,
Your last name isn’t Capel, is it?
A+ and +10,000,000,000 to Juicebox. The more I read last night from non-Piston fan sources, the more the loss of Ben came up in everything from predictions of our demise to analysis of our losses. As Juicebox seemed to allude, Ben was the real MVP in the 2004 Finals. Chauncey may have the flashy attitude or offensive numbers, but this team simply needed Ben more in that series.
Kevin, I think the Lakers outscored us by 6.8/game in paint by my count, but thanks for trying to make me feel better with the 2.8 you provided. All stats I checked are at hoopsstats.com, and it also says that when we beat Miami in the 2005 Conf. Finals, we lost the “PitP” battle by an average of 2.43 points/game despite losing the battle in Game 5 (an 86-78 loss in Miami) by an astounding 16-39. So I don’t know where your 6.3/game claim comes from, but I’d love to know. Even keeping the Game 5 outlier (I mean 16-39, really?) in, it’s still barely even a net loss per game. It’s less than half of the margin we gave up in the Lakers series that we won, and about five times closer together to being even than we were the Celtics series we lost. Just look at these averages for paint in the paint per game from these two series alone:
2004 v. the Lakers: 29.4-36.2
2008 v. the Celtics: 21.7-34.3
That Lakers team that had the two best players in the league at that time. That’s a damn fine job against those circumstances. Jim’s right on the money re: Stuckey/Hunter though. I did a poor job of not alluding to it more emphatically in my previous post. It’s a hell of a lot about a guy like Ben leaving (though his skills have declined so there’s nothing we could do about that re: Ben), but it is also about not stopping penetration enough too.
The fact that these Celtics essentially got as many points in the paint against us (countless coming from Mr. Perkins) as the Shaq-era Lakers and we, as a team, scored almost 8 whole points less per game in the paint in the ‘08 Conf. Finals than the ‘04 NBA Finals, that’s harrowing. That’s the problem most analysts point to with these Pistons, no longer having any control over the paint.
Then there’s the free throw attempt discrepancies (which maybe I’m taking a leap of faith here, but I think are more often than not a result of penetration or fouls around the hoop). People may say we got jobbed by the refs in 2008. Not my style, but I’m not going to make a big fuss if people want to say we did. I’m still going to look at the FTA numbers though. In ‘04 v. the Lakers, we won the FTA battle 171-101 for an average of 34.2-20.2 a night. The Lakers didn’t get more attempts than us in a single game. In ‘08 v. the Celtics, the teams split the game lead for FTA, 3-3. The grand total was 160-172 in favor of Boston. We allowed them 71 more shots than we allowed the Shaq and Kobe Lakers and we just played one extra game in this series compared to the ‘04 Finals. We had 11 less attempts against Boston than against the Lakers and we had an extra game where we could have inflated the cumulative attempts. The average for this year’s series comes out to 26.7-28.7 a night. Sure it’s a close deficit (-2.0), but remember, we won The Lakers series 34.2-20.2. We shot 7.5 less free throws than we did per game in the ‘04 Finals, and we gave up 8.5 more to Boston than the Lakers. That’s a net difference in the two series of 16 free throw attempts. When I discovered these numbers last night and accompanying non-Piston fan analysis which predicted the impact of losing Ben to be greater than most anticipated/rationalized, I was floored.
I truly believe that we absolutely need an inside presence to win in today’s NBA. I don’t care who it is, I just want one. BAD.
Problem: Lack of physical shot-blocker and rebounder.
Solution: “Amir Johnson, meet Jose Canseco. Now bend over. This may sting a little.”
I’d do either of the Houston deals (involving Sheed and Max/Amir), but I don’t see why Houston would. They have plenty of power forwards, and even if you assume that Rasheed can take Yao’s center spot, they wouldn’t want another PF since they’re getting steady production from Scola, and Landry is promising. They need another creator on their team, so if anyone, they’d probably target Stuckey. Besides, if they wouldn’t trade away their weaker star, why would they try to deal the better one?
I’d agree with Yao’s soft label a few years ago, but he’s emerged as one of the few legit back to the basket centers in the league, and he’s anchored Houston defensively, which has ranked in the top five for years.
Oh, Atlanta signs Mo Evans for three years at $2.5 million each. Atlanta only has like 9 guys under contract, so hopefully they’ll keep making small, relatively inconsequential moves like this in order to kill their capspace.
How did Mo Evans sign with the Warriors and then with the Hawks in a span of 48 hours? That’s amazing! His agent (Roger Montgomery) is now the best agent in the business in my eyes. How does he not have more impact clientele?
Ben Wallace in his prime was one of the best defenders in history. It would be great to replace him, but that is easier said than done.
Is is easier said than done to replace Ben Wallace, for sure. Problem is, it doesn’t seem like the Pistons leadership has even gotten to the “saying” part of that equation, let alone even starting on the “done”. Joe D and Flip’s theory of replacing one of the best defenders of all time was to stick in McDyess. So, to me, that seems like a major sign from the organization that they need a major reality check as to why their is a banner with NBA Champions 2004 hanging from the rafters. They act as though they think Chauncey Billups faced the Lakers alone. Oh, wait, what was that, he did. OK. My bad.
There isn’t another Ben Wallace out there, granted, but it seems like any move the team makes, if we desire to retain the same defensive style of play that made us a contender, should be aimed at least beginning to try to replace Ben’s contribution through multiple players. I don’t know thing A about the guidelines of trades and free agency, so I can’t really make any suggestions. I like Okafor and Josh Smith, if he could play the 4, which he can’t - and think both would at least get us heading in the right direction - but I don’t understand what it would take to make either of those moves happen. And I still think that we should see what we have before making any moves. In another year Amir is almost going to become a joke in the way Darko was - “hey, everyone, we’ve got this super talented guy, Greg Popovich offered Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, ten million in cash, a four free passes to Six Flags for him, but we said ‘no way’, we’re keeping him and we’re never going to play him, ever, unless we’re winning by 20, that’s how good he is.”
Ben was the man. I always thought he should have been the ‘04 MVP because he was the heart and soul of that team.
According to the announcers of tonights U.S.A. vs Canada exhibition game Lebron is now 260 lbs with only 5% body fat.
“There isn’t another Ben Wallace out there, granted, but it seems like any move the team makes, if we desire to retain the same defensive style of play that made us a contender, should be aimed at least beginning to try to replace Ben’s contribution through multiple players. ”
Hence Maxiell, Ratliff et al… But when you lose a player of Ben’s caliber, it often makes more sense to shift the strategy, especially when the other option is dragging in some Calvin Booth type scrub just because he’s tall.
It’s not like the Pistons don’t play good defense without Ben Wallace. They just don’t play superduper elite all-time great defense. The championship team held teams below 80 points 24 times in one season.
I have no problems with McDyess’s performance replacing Big Ben. I have problems with Rasheed regressing, the rest of the team stagnating, and the weak bench. The Pistons have never had two bench players score as much as Mehmet Okur and Corliss Williamson since the championship. Some of the decreased bench scoring is because the starters stabilized and scored a bit more but part of the reason the starters played so many minutes and didn’t get the job done in the playoffs was the bench was weak.
Ratliff rebounded less than 80 boards regular and post-season combined for the Pistons this year. He nearly had more fouls than rebounds in the playoffs. I did more for the team by purchasing tickets to a few games and watching them on TV. Maxiel is a different type of player entirely - he gets a rebound every five minutes. I think shifting the strategy would have been a good way to go - but the only meaningful change they made was hiring Flip - which just meant we scored and allowed more points. The strategy to go from scoring 87 and allowing 80 to scoring 97 and allowing 90 seems pretty inconsequential.
The bench isn’t any weaker. The 04 bench was stronger in the regular season - if memory serves. But when Memo moved to the bench he became worthless.
04 Playoff Bench Points-aprox. 16/game
08 Playoff Bench Points-aprox. 24/game
It wasn’t the bench.
There’s been a lot of soul searching going on here. Hell, were even starting to pump for Big Ben! Anyway I feel moved to contribute…
According to NBA.com stats Maxiell averaged approx 2 more rebounds than Ratliff in equivalent floor time. Maxiell played all 82 games and Ratliff played 26. Ratliff doubled Maxies blocks per 48min rating. Amir rates the highest on the team in that category. What does this all mean? Stats as most people should be aware don’t tell the whole story. Rattler is a very valuable player and if he plays on we should absolutely keep him as part of the big man rotation. What Max and Ratliff share is something not measured in stats, it is intimidation factor.
The point is that losing Ben is NOT the main reason we cant reach the finals. What did the NBA do to the the rules after that year? We were closer to the goal this year than last. Our starters were rested. Our bench improved and played well in spurts. We shed ugly contracts. We won 59 friggin games!
A true 5 will help (points in the paint is a concern for this team) as will a hopefully more focused and disciplined playing group. The reason I have been keen on T-Mac, is that a hungry supremely talented player can be a difference maker. Ron Artest is a damaged person, no, no, no (unless for waaay cheap)
I don’t want to stand pat, I want a difference maker. BUT, I know the same team with a new coach can still be good. Maybe even great.
I guess I am content to wait and see. But man this off-season is killing me!
Remember when Tay and CB would drive to the basket? Ne neither. CB to Tayshuan for the alley-oop. Not in a couple of years. Look, I love me some Tay-Tay, but doggonnit, complancy has set in. One of Tay and CB’s best attributes were the dribble-drives(yes I love the hyphen). Settling for the jumper is laziness, in my humble opinion. With all of the extra playoff games, I don’t really blame them. That’s a lot of games.
To my point; I don’t want to trade Tayshuan. But if he’s our only tradable asset; I’m sorry. What has he done for me lately (in the playoffs)? Luol it the same player. Sign and trade. Tay would score 30 for them a night. And I say, “That would be awesome. He deserves it.” Luol is better offensively (nowadays) with great D.
Oh, and I’ve read the last couple of posts. Ben Wallace at 3 years 45 mil. If we would’ve matched that, we would’ve been hamstrung resigning everyone else. He was great, but is now over-paid. Can’t believe I’m still hearing about Big Ben. Not worth addressing (I already did. Damn.)
My best buddy hung up on me 3 years ago when I told him that I wanted to trade Ben for Bosh. I sh!t you not.
He claimed “heart and soul”. I want skills and a reasonable contract. “Heart and soul” doesn’t put points on the board. Especially where he’s concerned in crunch time at the freethrow line at the end of a game.
Don’t get me wrong. I love Ben. Just not at that price.
It’s a business. I hate to see people’s hearts broken for no reason.
Why tout the championship team’s defensive identity and then just list scoring numbers to say that the bench this year was okay? The best thing about that bench is that it matched the starters’ defensive intensity pound for pound. Mike James and Lindsey Hunter just smothered opposing guards. Corliss was relentless on both ends, and Elden was very good at defending Shaq for stretches. Okur wasn’t the defensive talent that these guys were, but he was a credible offensive threat. Brown let these guys play even when games got tight. Only Stuckey, Maxiell, and Hunter got consistent playing time when we played Boston. This bench is obviously still growing, and but it’s not up to par with the championship team’s bench yet.
These stats are from a year ago, but these are the teams that let in net points in the paint (from 82games). Orlando (9.1, 40-42), New York (7.0, 33-49), Utah (4.9, 51-31), Miami (4.5, 44-38), New Orleans (4.0, 39-43). It does correlate with wins some, but it’s not that useful a stat on its own without knowing stuff like team percentages in the paint or how often teams are able to take shots in the paint. It probably can’t hurt to do well in this regard, but it’s not the panacea the team needs, and it certainly shouldn’t make us go around looking for marginal players just because they’re big. David Harrison might be an inside presence, but he’d also hurt the team because he’s freaking terrible.
Forget about Artest and focus on Josh Smith.
Atl press reports that a western conference powerhouse and Eastern conference big dog has inquired about a Smith S&T and Hawks are entertaining those offers. What are the chances that Detroit is the Eastern Conference team in question?
“This bench is obviously still growing, and but it’s not up to par with the championship team’s bench yet.”
I disagree. The bench was the best of any team in the playoffs. Lindsey destroyed Cassell. Stuckey destroyed everyone. Maxiell played great and was the only one hitting shots at the end of Game 6. It was the starters the stunk it up.
QD is right about the bench.
I listed scoring numbers to point out the fact that the bench scores more now - as someone alluded to otherwise. How in the world is me pointing out the bench scored more deflect from the fact that we play worse defense overall? That’s nuts. I’ve been saying all along that it’s rebounding and defense - pointing out that the bench scored more than the 04 bench doesn’t mean I contradicted myself on our rebound and defense numbers. In fact, I’d say this bench was better on offense and defense. “Corliss was relentless on both sides of the ball?” OK. 5 points a game on 36%. 36% when he only shoots from six to eight feet away. 2 rebounds a game. The only thing that Corliss was relentless about was wearing knee high socks. People like to romanticize that 04 bench. Memo scored 3 points a game. Commentators always recall the days of old when the those “two bull-dogs” Mike James and Hunter would create havoc. Really? Mike James didn’t have a single steal in the finals and played four minutes a game. How much havoc was he really making? Was any making more havoc than Maxiel and Stuckey? No. That bench played less in the post-season than this year’s bench as well. Chauncey and Rip play exactly the same every post-season - possibly part of the problem. Our bench has improved from the championship season. The difference is that Rasheed Wallace morphed amazingly into a 38-year-old Sam Perkins right before our very eyes and our current starting C is probably the worst in the league, a few exceptions could be argued (J. Noah, Boone from NJ, that’s about it though). McDyess rebounds per 48 is decent, somewhere in the 20’s I’m guessing, but he is not a good defensive player. It’s not that I’m still hung up on Ben Wallace years later - but his 14rpg are hard to not miss and bring up. I’m hung up on the fact that we are still trying to play like Ben Wallace is there, in complete ignorance that we need better big men or a new system to actually compete.
And before I get the inevitable: If you think the defense was so great in 04, why are you claiming our 08 bench is better defensively than our 04 one? Well, because, it is, first of all. And second I think the defense in 04 was so great because of the starters - that is the difference between then and now.
Garrett: Absolutely. Ben deserved the Finals MVP more than Chauncey. That much, I know. That decision will never be the correct one.
I don’t think any of us fail to realize Ben Wallace has regressed. I don’t think those of us who share my view re: Ben’s impact on the team would suggest that holding onto Ben Wallace would’ve been the answer. None of us would dare to suggest that he is worth what his current contract pays him. Juicebox has it in that Joe may’ve forgotten what won us our title in ‘04. Rasheed is good, but paired with a guy who secures the paint for us, Rasheed is great coming to help. Maybe Ben made it all too easy, I know he was huge, but even a guy who gives you 1/4th of Ben (for preferably 1/4th the price) would be a big plus in my book. Fortunately, the offseason still has a lot of time left. I won’t count Joe out yet. I’m not saying our NBA title chances are doom and gloom by any stretch. I’m just saying they’re doom and gloom if we walk into next season and the only new faces are Bynum and Sharpe. If Joe makes a move, all bets are off. Until Joe makes a move, I (like most DBBers) am left to ruminate over what we can do to improve our finish.
I would contend that any upgrade on inside presence would’ve closed the gap on the near 13 point discrepancy in the paint between us and the Celtics and is a necessary change going forward if we want to really follow this “defensive-minded team” mantra. If we could’ve dropped that gap to 8 points, I think we go on to win the ECF and the title. I don’t think you need an “in-his-prime” Ben Wallace to drop it to 8. That Ben probably drops it to like 4 or 5 by all the advantages he creates on defense. Maybe someone like a Kwame Brown gets you closer to 8 or 9? We probably need better perimeter security too, but I think those two would feed off each other. This may be thinking too highly of Kwame Brown, but I don’t believe so.
Joe grabbed Nazr in ‘06-’07, but he wavered (understandably) soon after because of the price tag. We had McDyess back then. Why is McDyess good enough to start now but wasn’t when he was 2 years younger? That strikes me as odd. It strikes me that Joe remembers (or remembered in ‘06-’07) what Ben did for us from 2000-2006. The NBA Champion this year had KENDRICK PERKINS (a $4 million price tag/year) as its starting center. Why would adding Kwame Brown (a guy who does the same stuff) for that money or less be such a terrible idea? We don’t have a guy on our roster with “Center” as the one and only position said player has played for his entire NBA career. That’s not alarmingly strange? It is to me.
When you’ve got Sheed and Dice platooning on coverage because no one is sure who’s best suited to defend the opponent in the post, it’s really an ugly picture. Remember, that Boston got a lot of their paint scoring from Perkins’ put-backs. The “Finals-era” Pistons would’ve limited that joker to 4 points/game max. Maybe a Pistons squad with a renewed commitment to keeping one guy in the paint for about 20 minutes/night would get us past said joker.
And going back to an earlier discussion, I’m pretty sure if you count Maggette and Monta Ellis for $21 million combined this season (that’s got to be accurate or possibly even lowballing it unless either or both of their contracts are inexplicably frontloaded) that still only puts Golden State around $62-64 million in cap commitments. With the luxury tax starting at just over $71 million, that leaves at worst something around $7 million this season and the 8% raise next year to throw at Biedrins. Then, by 2010-2011 when Harrington and Foyle are gone, Biedrins could be seeing like $11 million/year.
I really think their payroll is closer to $62.5-$63 million though even if/when they sign Richard Hendrix and/or C.J. Watson, both moves which I would recommend. I have NO idea what Mullin is doing with the roster he’s compiled and I think he’s grossly overpaid for Maggette as has been said, but I think Mullin has done a rather commendable job of controlling cap space for signing Biedrins. I think there are only two possible reasons Biedrins hasn’t signed: they haven’t come together on the right contract numbers, or Mullin is still very actively seeking sign and trades.
JOSH SMITH ALERT-JOSH SMITH ALERT
Atlanta Journal Constitution reporting that a “Western Conference power and an Eastern Conference big dog have already submitted offers to the Hawks,” and that the team is currently in the process of weighing those offers.
I’m begining to think it’s only a matter of time before this guy is throwing shots into the first row in Auburn Hills.
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/hawks/entries/2008/07/26/switching_lanes.html?cxntfid=blogs_hawks
@UTEP:
Cody beat you to the punch above, but thanks for the link. “Eastern Conference big dog”, I’m wondering who else they could include there… Cleveland? While I’d love to think this could be Detroit, I could see Cleveland packaging some of their front-court redundancy to Atlanta… We’ll see!
I just really want to see that deal happen. It could only be Cleveland, if he were not referring to Detroit.
Here’s a good breakdown of what it would take to acquire J. Smith and it would be difficult because of cap situations and the fact that Smith would be a BYC player.
http://blog.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2008/07/josh_smith_sign_and_trade_migh.html
In a way I’d hate to give up Amir in a trade for Smith…He’s still very young (21) and I’m really interested in seeing how he plays this year. However, Smith is only 6 months older then Amir! He could start games at the 3, but I would love to see an end of game lineup that looks like this:
Billups
Stuckey
Rip
J. Smith
Sheed
Sorry if this double posts, my computer is being weird.
Here’s a good breakdown of the potential deal and how it would be tough (but definitely possible) to deal because of the cap situations of Atlanta and Detroit and since J. Smith would be a BYC player.
http://blog.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2008/07/josh_smith_sign_and_trade_migh.html
In a way I’d hate to give up Amir in a trade for J. Smith…he’s still so young (21) and I’m really interested in seeing how he plays over the next couple years, but Smooth is only 6 months older then Amir. He’s not a perfect player, but the guy put up some pretty crazy numbers for a 22 year old. Smith would start games at the 3, but I’d love to see an end of game lineup that looks like this:
Billups
Stuckey
Rip
J. Smith
Sheed
It would have to be Tayshaun Prince headed back to Atlanta in a sign-and-trade, right? Atlanta has nobody to play SF if Smith is gone.
Some minor deals…
Utah matched Oklahoma City’s 4yr/$15M offer sheet to CJ Miles
The LA Lakers signed Sasha Vujacic to a 3yr/$15M deal
But still it makes more sense for us to move our SF for him.
Unless they prefer Rasheed’s expiring contract?
Marvin Williams plays the 3 and Josh Chil….Actua;;y it would leave them a hole at power forward. I could see Dyess or (gulp) Maxey going too.
The Hawks have Marvin Williams.
I think Horford is more of a PF than C.
I assumed you were responding to joejoejoe’s comment that the bench was weaker. He didn’t say whether it was weaker defensively or offensively, and you posted the benches’ scoring numbers. I don’t really see where the mistake is, but I apologize if you were talking about something else. I’ll readily give you that Stuckey and Maxiell were better than most of the players on that bench, and the champ bench wasn’t great offensively during the playoffs, but again, I was referring to defensive impact. I’ll grant that Corliss’s offense was bad in the playoffs, and I have a lot of nostalgia for the last competent backup for Prince, but he was still a useful player that Brown used to create mismatches. Hunter and James didn’t always generate that many steals (which, as it turns out, are not equal to defensive ability), but their full court pressure made it difficult for opposing backcourts to bring the ball upcourt, and they made it difficult to set up plays. Campbell was a great option for a post defender off the bench.
I wouldn’t call this bench weak, but they don’t have the same kind of defensive intensity. When the starters stepped off that year, the bench could be counted on to bring on the same level of defensive pressure. The potential is clearly present in Stuckey, Afflalo, Max, and Amir (they can easily be better, in fact), but they’re not there yet. Maybe next season.
And let’s back up. In the Boston series, when this superior bench was shortened to three and a half guys, they weren’t all that. Hunter went out there and did what he always did, but Maxiell was neutralized on the boards, didn’t get many blocks, and had only one good offensive game. Stuckey was good defensively and he got to the line but he still shot under 40%. Ratliff didn’t do anything.
As for your second post, I don’t know where I said that this bench’s defense was better than the championship bench, because that’s pretty much the opposite of what I’ve been saying. In the champ year, the starters were great, and getting Sheed was obviously the catalyst for the team’s inspired defensive play, but the bench had a decent role in that too.
Hawks ‘08-09 minus Josh Howard
PG - Mike Bibby
SG - Joe Johnson
SF - Marvin Williams
PF - Al Horford
C - Zaza Pachulia
Is it possible to do a sign-and-trade for Josh Smith and not lose a starter or Stuckey? The Hawks need depth. Maybe Amir, Herrmann, and Samb?
I don’t know who Atlanta would want from Cleveland. Wallace? Delonte? Even after Cleveland’s big trade, they still have no movable assets coveted by other teams. I’m also curious about who the Western Conference team in the mix is.
As for us, Atlanta can get away with playing Horford as the center, but it would probably be better for him and the team if he were a power forward. Still, with Smith gone, they’d have pretty poor frontcourt depth, so they’d probably happily take one of our young bigs. Marvin is a pretty mediocre player right now and he ended his playoff run like an idiot, so I don’t think it would be unreasonable to think that the Hawks could still be interested in Tayshaun.
Juicebox - It’s my view that the current bench is less versatile than the championship bench and therefore less effective. The current version is mostly just a pale copy of the starters (Stuckey excepted). Maybe the young players grow into more than that but Maxiell has the same little elbow jumper as McDyess. Corliss Williamson and Elden Campbell and James/Hunter were different then the players they replaced which allowed the coach do to a little more matching up. Other than Stuckey (who more or less started for 3 playoff games, skewing the scoring numbers for the bench) the current bench is very similar to the starters in style of play. That makes it tough to change gears when things aren’t working. Bringing “energy” isn’t the only role for the bench. Exploiting matchups is part of their role.
Take Lindsey Hunter. If the Celtics go to Eddie House at PG for a little extra scoring then the Pistons can counter with Hunter for ball pressure. That’s how you use a bench, like chess pieces. But what if the Pistons want to go big against Orlando to counter their weak rebounding PF/SF pair? They can’t. That’s what I mean when I say I don’t like this version of the bench. I thought Herrmann gave the team some different looks off the bench but he never played enough for it to matter.
I said “I don’t like this version of the bench” - that’s too strong.
To clarify, I like the talent enough and the potential of the players but in a playoff series it’s not raw talent or potential that helps you win, it’s the actual mix of skills you field within your team. I think there is too much of the same skill set in the starters and the bench (Stuckey excepted).
I think my post got eaten, but I don’t know whether it was because it was too long or because I had some mild cursing. Oh well.
Team Defensive Stats:
http://www.82games.com/FDTEAM12.HTM
Detroit allows the seventh lowest points inside, is tied for the third best blocking percentage, is second to Houston in inside field goal percentage, and sixth fewest dunks and And-1s. The one area on the inside that the Pistons ranked poorly on was opponent attempts in the paint, where they were pretty bad (36% to an average of 33%, which is fairly significant since these are high percentage shots). Boston allowed 29%. You could interpret this a number of ways, like poor penetration defense or the lack of some intimidation factor on the inside. It’s certainly not a good thing, but overall they do well because teams’ FG% is poor against them inside and they are liable to get swatted. In this regard, Sheed, McDyess, and Max should be commended.
http://www.82games.com/FGTEAM11.HTM
Offensively, it’s a different story. 4th lowest points in the paint, 5th lowest attempts, average to below on dunks, And-1s, and fouls inside. Half the Pistons’ shots were 2 point jumpers, and although the team shot above average (.414) from there, it is still the worst percentage shot in basketball, and you’re not likely to get fouled taking it. Dallas could get away with shooting as many jumpers they did, but not this team. The team is pretty undistinguished from 3, from what I can tell (decent percentages but doesn’t take enough of them).
Player Breakdowns:
http://www.82games.com/FGSORT15.HTM
Paint Stats
Player / Attempt% / FG% / Pts.
Prince / 36% / 57.6% / 4.8
Maxiell/ 51% / 65.4% / 3.7
Rip / 19% / 57.9% / 3.2
McDyess/ 28% / 68.8% / 3.0
Stuckey/ 45% / 47.7% / 2.9
Amir / 87% / 61.1% / 2.8
Billups/ 19% / 57.7% / 2.5
Sheed / 15% / 66.4% / 2.3
No starter scores that much inside, but Prince takes more inside shots than other starter. From what I’ve seen, he gets most of these points with postups (which works only with some players) and some drives to the basket. Stuckey’s percentages inside aren’t great, but he had a steep learning curve and was likely to get most of his shots blocked early on. He improved in this aspect as the season went on. Maxey gets assisted a lot, but he’s shown some skill when he operates around the basket. The guards don’t get many inside shots, but a big culprit here is Sheed, who takes the fewest shots inside but shoots one of the best percentages. He wasn’t assisted on many of his shots either. We’ve all seen that Sheed’s turnaround is pretty much unblockable, and it’s a good shot when he has the positioning, but he used it less than ever this year.
2 Pt Jumper Stats
Player / Attempt% / FG% / Pts.
Rip / 67% / 46.7% / 9.0
Sheed / 48% / 41.8% / 4.6
McDyess/ 71% / 41.1% / 4.5
Prince / 46% / 37.8% / 4.1
Billups/ 43% / 43.3% / 4.1
Stuckey/ 50% / 35.1% / 2.4
Maxiell/ 47% / 41.6% / 2.2
JHayes/ 44% / 36.4% / 2.0
Arron / 46% / 42.3% / 1.3
Rip and Chauncey were the only ones who had any business taking this many jumpers. This was a down year for McDyess, who shot around 47% on the same shots the year before, and that was after a horrific slump in the beginning of the year. Prince’s shooting was godawful, but he has shot better in previous years as well. And Stuckey has a lot of work to do.
I think this leaves little doubt that we have a jumpshooting team that doesn’t score inside and doesn’t draw fouls well (exceptions being Billups, Max, and Stuckey). This was partly by design, but it doesn’t pay to have an offense like that unless you’re Dallas or Phoenix, and even that can come to haunt you against stingier defensive teams. Our interior D isn’t perfect, but it’s still very good. It isn’t a great sign that teams are more shots inside against us than average, but we do well overall. I’d be more concerned with the team getting better at rebounding (-45 against the Celts).
People concerned about us winning in points in the paint should also recognize that the team is pretty bad at scoring inside.
joejoejoe: I’d most prefer a deal centered on Rasheed to Atlanta for Josh Smith and Zaza Pachulia. Yes, Zaza Pachulia starts as the Pistons center. With Horford taking over the center spot in Atlanta (Aaron: Horford likes the paint anyway, so despite being undersized, he’s a starting C if you have the roster Atlanta has), Pachulia became expendable. A Rasheed for Smith + Pachulia deal makes perfect sense for both sides if you ask me. I’m sure Atlanta wouldn’t mind fielding a starting lineup of: Bibby, Johnson, Williams, Sheed and Horford for this season (or even beyond) because Sheed can stretch defenses in ways Smith can’t. The problem, is the collective bargaining agreement messes my whole dream up.
In reality, we’d need to add some more to my dream deal to make it work within the CBA, like us taking on Speedy Claxton’s salary (and maybe throwing Atlanta an additional cheaper player than Speedy in Afflalo or Cheikh, or even Max or Amir if Atlanta deemed it necessary). Atlanta will need to sign more players whether they would make this deal or not. With the defection of Childress and with no picks in this past draft, they only have eight players under contract right now to my knowledge. Their roster is far from what it will look like in November anyway.
Zaza Pachulia would DEFINITELY have the kind of impact I’d hope to get from a Kwame Brown. Even if he didn’t (he would), his contract is for $4,000,000 and ends after this season. Zaza may have no athleticism whatsoever, but he is chesty and he truly loves to bang in the post. When he started for Atlanta in ‘05-’06 and ‘06-’07, he was pretty good (12 and 8 and then 12 and 7 the following year on 45.1% and 47.4% shooting). The amazing thing is, Atlanta, despite losing 108 games over those two seasons, outscored us in the paint in both of those seasons. I think this is in large part due to Pachulia giving them a very good 30 minutes/night in the paint. He dropped 20+ at least a dozen times over those two years. That’s a lot more 20+ nights than Kendrick Perkins will have his whole career and Perkins has a freaking ring as a starter. Zaza has also played more minutes/game in his career than Nazr, Perkins, etc, which should be a huge asset. He is simply a better offensive rebounder than anyone we have on our roster right now. If anyone isn’t sold on Pachulia as a good fit with the Pistons, these clips will sell you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKsS-3j9sfg - Garnett cheap shots Pachulia and Pachulia goes all McDyess on Garnett. KG is a helluva player, but he is the antithesis of hard. If we got Pachulia, he’d screw with Garnett all series long if we played Boston in the playoffs next season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cQjjvFAf6Q - Okay, he sounds a little goofy here with the accent, but the guy plays with passion and he what he lacks up in skill, he makes up in effort. He wants to win.
Unfortunately, no trade involving the swap of player(s) for player(s) can be made with one team taking on more than 125% + $100,000 of the CAP VALUE that the other team is getting back no matter if both teams are still under the cap after. Josh Smith’s CAP VALUE in any trade is half of what he’s paid in the contract he signs (this is because of the retarded “base year compensation” clause in the CBA). So, if Smith inks a sign & trade that pays him $12 million next season, he only counts as $6 million in CAP VALUE in any trade. Tack on Pachulia as my heart so yearns for, and you’re up to $10 million. Smith and Pachulia coming out to $10 million in CAP VALUE works just fine in a straight-up deal for Tay’s $9.5 million or Rip’s $10.5625 million or even Chauncey’s $11.05 million.
Rasheed’s $13.68 million however, would send Atlanta more than 125%+ $100,000 of what we’d be getting back in CAP VALUE ($13.68 is more than 125% of $10.1 million), and thus wouldn’t work under the CBA. Sheed for Zaza, Smith and Claxton, and now you’re talking. Of course we’d almost certainly have to give Atlanta back at least one (probably two) of the following: Max, Amir, Bynum, Herrmann, Ratliff, Lindsey or Afflalo, just so Atlanta wouldn’t have an absolutely barren roster. Personally, any two of those guys is cool with me (though I’m least happy jettisoning Max). I could see that not being cool with a lot of folks though. I totally get that.
J. Smith would start at the 3, but I would love to see an end of game that lineup that looks like this;
Billups
Stuckey
Rip
J. Smith
Sheed
We’re taking out Tay and McDyess and inserting Stuckey and J. Smith…in my opinion that’s a pretty big upgrade. Stuckey is going to play 30 mpg and put up 15, 5, 3, and 1 steal and we all know what J. Smith can do and he’s only 6 months older then Amir. If we could then re-sign Walter Herrmann plus either Kwame Brown or Theo to add a capable C with some size we’d be pretty set. We were the second best team in the league last year…the best team just lost an important part of theirs (Posey)…If this trade goes down, we’d be the team to beat.
Paul M: +1. I don’t think we disagree at all. If you score more in the paint, that’s just as good as improving defense in the paint. I’m cool with going about it that way. You win the PitP battle by scoring more there than the other team does. If you score an absolute boatload in the paint then defense in the paint is irrelevant in winning the battle. Maybe I was unclear about my stance but I have no preference since I realize that a team can win the battle either way. I don’t particularly value one (defense) over the other (offense), it’s just that defense in the paint is what we were good at when we made the Finals so it made the most sense to me that we would have an easier time re-capturing that. Maybe without Ben, it’s not possible, but a lot of people forget he did average about 10 points/game back then coming almost entirely under the hoop.
Losing to Boston in the paint by 12.7/game is flat out unacceptable. I don’t care if the improvement is through more offense in the paint, better defense in the paint or a combo of both. We’re pretty much allergic to winning the PitP battle now. Surprise surprise, according to http://www.hoopstats.com 2003-2004 and 2004-2005 were the only regular seasons in the past ten years that we’ve been on the + column against our opponents in PitP. That doesn’t always translate to being on the + column in the playoffs (see: Pistons -6.8/game in the 2004 Finals), but I’d argue that it shouldn’t need to. To me, it shows a trend that your team is concerned with battling in the paint. Kendrick Perkins’ repeated dunks off of Rondo’s easy penetration made it clear that (at least on the defensive end), this team doesn’t give a crap about the paint. Your stats seem to make it clear that they don’t care about it on the offensive end either. Awesome to consider what we’ve accomplished in spite of this, but bad news if your goal is a championship.
“The difference is that Rasheed Wallace morphed amazingly into a 38-year-old Sam Perkins”
Not even remotely.
“our current starting C is probably the worst in the league, a few exceptions could be argued (J. Noah, Boone from NJ, that’s about it though). ”
He’s easily better than Perkins, as well as the two you name parenthetically. He is also better than Rasho Nesterovic, DeSagana Diop, Mark Blount, Darko Milicic (or whoever you want to pick as the Grizzlies representative here), Nick Collison, Joel Przybilla, and is about on par with Brad Miller, Samuel Dalembert, Andrew Bogut, AL Horford, Brendan Haywood and Mehmet Okur.
“Kendrick Perkins’ repeated dunks off of Rondo’s easy penetration made it clear that (at least on the defensive end), this team doesn’t give a crap about the paint. ”
Does Dwight Howard’s 15 ppg in the second round make it clear that he doesn’t give a crap about the paint either? Cause if he was facing a team that didn’t give a crap about the paint, and could only muster 15 and 13, then he is a mediocre player.
Let me ask this. Do you think, for one second, that those guys would get those kind of looks on, say, the Atlanta Hawks?
Paul M: Those were interesting stats in regards to DET ranking pretty high in defense still. Sure, the numbers are down from 04-05 - but never the less - you made a good case that it is much more the scoring in the paint than the defense in the paint. To me, that all leads back to rebounding. As someone pointed out, Ben was getting 10 points a game - and they weren’t from jumpers and free throws. Like LawyerBoy wrote scoring more PIP works the same as limiting PIP, but it seems, based on those stats, maybe our focus should be geared more on scoring. Your second group of stats really points to one our major flaws being shot selection, and maybe Curry can fix that. What also jumps out to me is that Stuckey, while being a rookie of course, probably doesn’t deserve to be the only “safe” one-based on shot selection and FG%, which go hand in hand I know. I’ve always been much higher on Affalo, so it bugs me that their is such a love fest surround Stuckey despite his 35% shooting in the post-season. Honestly, I think he could probably bring in more than anyone else on his own, trade-wise, and should be used as such because his post-season scoring probably upped his value more than maybe it should have. But I’m still keen on keeping him.
LB: I’m with you on Zaza. A Rasheed/”Young Big” for J. Smith and Zaza would be awesome. The one difference is that I’d prefer Maxiel to be that big. Even if Zaza wasn’t involved, as it seems he couldn’t be - I think Smith could possibly play the 4 as someone mentioned. I know he’s listed taller than what he really is, but it seems like having a guy that’s better off-the-ball is what worked in the past - that was always Ben’s biggest strength.
Kevin: OK, maybe not a 38-year-old Perkins. I’ll give you a 35-year-old Sam Perkins, Sonic NBA Finals throwback. It was a vintage impersonation. Except it’s almost worse, because Rasheed could do more than shoot 3’s - he just doesn’t want to. I’m just tired of having the guy labeled as “the best player in the NBA if he wanted to be.” At first, I thought that was cool. And as a personal trait it is, but as a player to have on the team you root for - it’s annoying as can be. As far as McDyess: How could you claim he’s better than K. Perkins when statistically they were nearly equal, both season and series numbers - and I thought, just my opinion, that Perkins has a much larger non-statistical impact on the series. That’s opinion though, but Perkins has the slight numbers edge - so at best it’s a draw. Dampier is the Dallas starter in my mind, and he is better at the things I want our C to be. I was thinking of O’Neal already as Toronto’s when I made my list of exceptions. And Jeff Foster is better in that case. I also wasn’t counting Miami, because they didn’t really play last year. I’m assuming they’ll go Marion-SF, Beasley-PF, and Haslem-C, in which case you might still be right - but I’d prefer Haslem - if he wasn’t Haslem. I’ll give you a couple more than the two I named off the top of my head (I don’t know how I forgot to name Darko, how could I forget him?), but mostly because I’d hate to have Brad Miller or Bogut on our team, whether or not they’d rebound and play worse defense is another question entirely. So, OK, he’s like the 20th best - but you can’t keep the same starting lineup and lose one guy, probably the #2 or #3 C at the time and replace him with #20 (at best) and somehow magically expect to win again, while not developing the bench. Somebody else will have to defend themselves on that third quote dissection. My entire point is that our starting C and PF production is the difference between then and now. Billups, Prince and Hamilton are all about identical. I think the bench was stronger, and statistically it was - I do agree with whoever made the case that before we had different pieces for match-ups and now we don’t. But on the other hand, shouldn’t Billups just be able to guard Eddie House and Sam Cassel?
I think almost everyone on here agrees that something has to be done with the front court - either more scoring inside or better defense inside. I think that almost everyone agrees that should be first priority, the only rival to it getting a go-to, create his own basket kind of scorer - but we might have those guys already just taking the wrong shots (Rasheed Wallace). Or we might be able to do both at the same time. The only respect I might differ from the pack is I think it’s the starting front court that is clearly the issue and not a problem that could be fixed with a new bench player.
Kevin-Your Dwight Howard point is actually pretty good. It essentially means that we could rebound and control the paint against a mediocre team with an outstanding rebounder and interior-scorer, so how can we be as bad defensively as everyone is claiming. It’s a good point. I’m not exactly sure what it means though. We’re we doubling the big-3 too often with our bigs and that’s why we got killed on the boards and PIP? Was it just the fact that you can leave Rashard Lewis and Mo Evans open and go box-out while they setup their shot? I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way. What was the difference? It’s not Perkins talent level, we can all agree on that. It’s not that we can’t rebound or play defense, as we did on the 3rd best team in the East. The deeper reason to why we didn’t rebound and play defense is out there and it’s obviously not ability. Will power? The Sam Perking potion Garnett poured in Rasheed’s drink while he was hanging out with the Celtics after a home game? I don’t know. It will be interesting to not have Flip as a coach again. I’m excited for it.
Zaza Pachulia? Seriously?
I’m fiercely scratching my head on this one. So bad that I might end up leaving a mark. I at least hope that no one suggesting Zaza is among those arguing that “we need another Ben”, because I hope they’re not calling for Zaza in their next breath.
Here’s a great deal. I can get you 90% of Zaza Pachulia for 20% of the price: Primoz Brezec. Same dude, only 28 pounds lighter and 2″ taller. Zaza Pachulia is a total scrub, a player who is in the league because he’s a specialist on the offensive glass. Otherwise, he settles for too many jump shots, he can’t do more in the post than jump and effect shots that are already on their way to the basket.
Zaza Pachulia is a shitty rebounder, a horrible shot blocker, a bad defensive player– and on the offensive end, 40% of his shots are jumpers. If you want someone to get in Garnett’s face, I’ll do it for a hell of a lot cheaper. Seriously, pay me the vet’s minimum, I’ll tell KG that I’m going to fight his father with knives. Twice.
While I may have handled this a bit more diplomatically had I handled it any other time than a post-bar Saturday night, I think the name Zaza Pachulia should be stricken from the record with haste.
Name any problem we have in the post, Zaza is just not a solution, IMO.
Oh, and also: “I at least hope that no one suggesting Zaza is among those arguing that “we need another Ben”, because I hope they’re not calling for Zaza in their next breath.”
Just wanted to state, for the record, that I’m with those that feel that we’ll never find another Ben Wallace, that he was the core of our basketball culture. Personally, I believe we’re in a point of transition that could maintain our defensive intensity while creating a new focus on smart offensive playmaking. Don’t ask me how we’ll do that, but I have a brick wall of faith in Joe that we’re transitioning toward a team that will exploit the New Way. Ben helped get us a championship, Joe will adjust to drive our team toward another.
Dear LB, I love you, I missed you but… you just suggested we TRADE FOR Zaza Pachulia…. no, really, you did. Don’t make me quote it. Now as punishment you have to go sit in the corner with all the pink jersey’d girls who say things like “Chauncey Billups is SOOOOOOOOOOO hot…” and the clone-boys who yell “OMFG KOOOOO—BEEEEEEEEE” every time Bryant nails a double contested jumper from 22 feet that he never should have launched. Let this be a lesson to you on the dangers of typing things without thinking. Next time, we make you spend a weekend hanging out with Stephen A Smith 24/7.
I hear R. Patterson can be had cheaply.
check out d latest rumour, prince n amir n a 3rd team into play for josh smith, wud ya take it??, its temptin
“If you want someone to get in Garnett’s face, I’ll do it for a hell of a lot cheaper. Seriously, pay me the vet’s minimum, I’ll tell KG that I’m going to fight his father with knives. Twice.”
MP: +1 and also count me in for swinging Cassells fugly head at Perkins.
Hey PG4L, you’re not drunk posting too, I hope? Read up, sister.
How do I challenge the iron-clad claim that 40% of Pachulia’s shots (way too many) are jumpers? How do I prove that Zaza brings something different? Hmmm, I dunno if anyone will believe me if I say that’s what it seemed like from the guy I saw on League Pass two seasons ago. I suppose I could explain that http://www.nba.com/hotspots says that in the last four years of Zaza’s five year career (no 2003-2004 data) he has taken about 72% of his regular season shots from within that little area right around the basket. I don’t know how Zaza has at least 112% shot selection, but that 40% jumpers is apparently fact.
Maybe the 40% is from this season since Pachulia only shot about 62% of his regular season shots from that little area. 13% of Pachulia’s career regular season FGAs, 1 of 5 seasons, less than a fifth of his regular season games played is a definitive sample of his shot choice? Really? That’s where the “40% of his shots are jumpers” came from, no? Pachulia was given under 950 minutes this season. Amir had 764 or a little over 3 mins. less/game than Zaza by comparison. The other 87% of data from three prior seasons no longer matters for Zaza? He’s like any Euro big (never an exception to the rule of course), no physicality, settles for jumpers? Uh, in a word: false. In another word: preposterous.
Apparently 90% of 24-year old Zaza is what you get in 28-year old Primoz Brezec. They sure are the same player. Brezec has MAYBE attempted 50% (being generous) of his shots from that same little area on hotspots in the last four years. That’s a curious finding. It doesn’t resemble 90% or any percent of Zaza, really.
I’ll grant that there are plenty of players by the basket more than Zaza. Good luck finding a long list of bigs in today’s NBA who have shot greater than 72% of their FGAs from that little area in the and averaged at least 8.75 ppg in the last four seasons like Zaza has. There is definitely a handful of them, but the thing is, they’re usually pretty good (American) bigs. Zaza lacks athleticism, but he’s a solid post guy through and through. These critiques painting him to be laughable or to be a Brezec-like DNP-CD are pure drivel. The guy makes an impact. And oh yeah, he’s a full year younger than Maxiell and has played in nearly double the number of regular season games (345 to 175). His contract is for $4 million this season.
I’m not stating an opinion on his game from spending what appears to be five drunken minutes with stats. I know Pachulia lacks shot-blocking. I also know his defense doesn’t suck. I’ve watched him body up bigs and take away position. Any nickel and dime scouting report (or find out by watching him for a few games) will tell you that’s his biggest asset. Denying position in the post can force bad shots or turnovers. Don’t DBBers often make arguments for players doing things that “don’t show up on the stat sheet”? I mean, that has got to be somewhere in Tay’s file. We know Tay brings invaluable intangibles. I believe Zaza does too.
Apparently being 6′11, 280 pounds, incredibly hard working, hitting 74% of free throws for your career and playing extremely physical ball almost exclusively in the post (both ends) does not qualify for a good addition to the Pistons this season. In fact, the mere suggestion induces a volcanic-level eruption of laughter.
Apparently you have to block shots in the paint to be considered anything beyond a “bad defender”. Sorry Dice, you’re cut because you can’t manage one blocked shot a game. You are the embodiment of a “bad defender” in the post. And since Amir fouls a lot and he’s not a bad defender, despite fouls you can still be better than “bad” on D.
I have to echo the last reminder not to drink and post. Why am I becoming a babysitter cleaning up the mess of extremely lackadaisically presented evidence? Zaza is the farthest thing from a post player that routinely leaves the post on offense. Not all Euro bigs were created equal. Drink and type, make absurd claims.
And why is it that PG4L is going off on Zaza like he went to Duke? He’s got more of what we’ve lacked since Ben left than Nazr and Brezec have combined twice over (which still only makes for about 1/10th to 1/8th of what Ben provided) and he shoots free throws better than either of them. Please, go back to 2005 or 2006 and watch some tape. Then re-visit your opinion. At the very least, please keep my words in the context they were presented.
And Kevin, I grant that Dwight Howard probably only played decent against us (though rather well on the offensive glass) but I also think we’ve taken residence in Orlando’s head, his in particular. That’s more about Orlando’s weakness than our strength. I really think the fact that Orlando collectively wet itself at the free throw line against us (two years running now) has something to do with how we were able to dispose of them in 5. If they make their season average of 72% from the line instead of 64%, I think that series is longer and tougher. We also hung a cold-blooded 86% on them from the line (Damn, +22% from the line? Ouch).
I truly believe that the Stones fed off Orlando’s uncertainty every step of the way and it empowered us. Despite Chauncey going down, we still did the things that experienced ball clubs do to win. We kept our composure after the Game 3 disaster. If Superman plays confident and can make closer to 60% instead of 50% of his FTs and the gang hits their FTs with him, I don’t think we can still punk them. I still don’t feel that we gave/give a rip about the paint. If Orlando cashes in on the FT attempts we (wisely) kept giving them, especially with Chauncey hurting, I think it’s a completely different series. At times, it felt to me like they were driving on us at-will so we (wisely) fouled them. I think that the disparity in FT % really helped bail us out. If that changes, I wouldn’t feel as confident. And with Pietrus replacing Evans, if he gels, then they’re probably a bit better than us (with rosters right now) talent-wise next season. If they can stop wetting the bed and we see them again, I think it could be a lot more interesting.
40% of the time, I find 60% of this site’s content to be 50% self fulfilling-jk.
The Magic peaked last year. They had a freakish year on the road. That will never happen again. Pietrus is over rated and on offense they will lose more than they will gain. The Wiz that the same record at home as the the Magic. Agent Zero was hurt most of last year. I expect breakout years from Blatche and N. Young.
The Heat will also be significantly better if Marion returns. With a healthy D. Wade, Marion and Beasley the Heat will make some noise in the Southeast.
I expect Brown to get more out of the Bobcats who have some very good talent, especially if they can keep Okafor.
The Southeast will be a lot tougher this year and Howard remains a one dimensional player who can only jump and block shots or jump and dunk.
I seriously doubt the the Magic will make the top 4 seed in the EC playoffs and don’t expect them to give us any problems at all this year if we play them in the playoffs.
We are definitely better than last year.
Our core guys may fall off a little but the Zoo Crew’s improvement will more than make up for that.
Plus Curry replacing Flip was a gigantic improvement and will show up especially in the playoffs where Curry has lots of experience as a player to add to his preparation and toughness skills.
This year’s Pistons won’t be soft like Suanders teams were. We will be a lot tougher and that will really show in the playoffs.
The Magic had their chance to beat us last year and I agree that thye should have. They won’t get another one this year.
I expect us to make the Finals no problem and I think that we have an excellent chance to win it all this year.
As far as the Hawks go I think that the loss of Childress will hurt them more than most people think. Johnson and Bibby are getting old. Smith if they keep him remains a one dimensional freak show like Howard who can only jump. He is way over rated as a complete basketball player goes.
The best thing the Hawks have going for them is Horford. Will his improvement in his second year be able to offset the loss of Childress and the aging of Johnson and Bibby. I don’t expect that it will.
I look for the Hawks to miss the playoffs in 2008-09
Sorry about that.
Two dimensional freak show. He can also run.
I agree that losing Childress is more of a kick in the junk than a stubbed toe but, dude, Joe Johnson is only 27 and Josh Smith is becoming a very, very good all around player.
Just because the guy has hops doesn’t mean he is one-dimensional (two-dimensional). His freakish athleticism is his strength, by far, but he is not Stromile Swift. The guy is a budding star.
“Smith if they keep him remains a one dimensional freak show like Howard who can only jump. He is way over rated as a complete basketball player goes.”
I’d gladly take a one-dimensional superfreak on a team with well-rounded players/stars than more complimentary players. We’ve done the complimentary thing for a few years now and I’m ready for a real athletic star on the roster. So what if Josh Smith can only run, dunk, and block shots? Sounds a bit like Ben Wallace, but we all know Smith is more potent on the offensive end (and not as good as an individual defender). I think he’d fit in just fine.
And I’m hearing LB on the Zaza thing. His name insipres laughter, but he’s not quite as bad as people think. He plays for a bad team that nobody ever watches.
“Zaza Pachulia? Seriously?”
He can occupy the paint! He can occupy it right in the face. Plus, he won’t be tempted to drift out to cover his man since he’s actually 41 years old.
I’ll make an observation here. People tend to wonder why an Adonal Foyle or a Calvin Booth gets a huge contract. The reason is that you have 23 front office people exhcanging e-mails not unlike the above comments, and gradually forming the consensus that Calvin Booth, and only Calvin Booth, holds the key to the future of the franchise.
“And Kevin, I grant that Dwight Howard probably only played decent against us (though rather well on the offensive glass) but I also think we’ve taken residence in Orlando’s head, his in particular. ”
Getting in his head is one of those ideas sportswriters discuss that doesn’t have any meaning. We got in his head by denying him the ball, and preventing him from scoring once he got the ball.
We were able to do so because it is possible to contain Turkoglu and Lewis one on one. If they had a star wing like LeBron or Paul Pierce, they would have lit us up.
It has nothing to do with empowerment. It has everything to do with sound basketball.
And if we can pull Tay for Josh Smith, Joe Dumars deserves to have some sort of shrine built in his honor.
Someone needs to take all of LB’s Detroit Piston posters, mousepads and tshirts away.
Zaza Pachulia?
No wonder I made fun of your mom.. she raised an absolute dumbass
@LB:
Pachulia’s performance on the offensive glass gives him a utility in head-to-head fantasy leagues where offensive boards are a competitive stat. In the last many seasons, I’ve held him low in my own roster for this reason alone. While this certainly does not make me a pro on all things Pachulia, I’ve scanned his stat lines thoroughly and watched many games to justify having him on my sheet.
This makes two points: 1) I’m a colossal nerd, and 2) I’ve been watching the guy for a few seasons. All those claims I made above came from my working knowledge on the guy, plus some very hasty glances at what he’s done lately, being his last season.
“Drink and type, make absurd claims.”
Sober or sloshed, I’m always a rather dashing fellow.
However, looking back at my points re: Pachulia– they’re spot on. For example, head over to 82 games and compare the best seasons of Pachulia and Brezec. They’re stunningly similar. I stand quite firmly on my point from last night– that Brezec = 90% of Pachulia for 20% of the price. A few years older, a whole lot goofier, but very similar skill sets.
Focusing on Pachulia alone, and my point about jumpers. In Pachulia’s best season, 35% of his shots were jump shots on which he shot 34.1%. This year, 43% of his shots were jump shots, on which he shot 30.1%. This is not what we need in a starting or backup 5.
Echoing the talk on this thread about what we lost when Ben left, we need rebounding, shot blocking, defensive hunger. Pachulia brings none of this. He can grab an offensive rebound, but our issues are on the defensive end of the court. The only value he could bring to our team is in his contract, and how it could make a Smith trade happen. I’ll certainly laud him for that…
“Why am I becoming a babysitter cleaning up the mess of extremely lackadaisically presented evidence?”
Maybe you’ve got nothing better to do?
LB, shots in the inside of the paint hotspot can be considered jumpers, like short five foot jumpshots. I’m guessing that’s what that means. At any rate, when your jumper is as crappy as Pachulia’s (hovering around 30% most his entire career), you really have no business taking that many jumpshots. And yes, even the 28% (72% inside, 28% jumpers) figure you cited is too much, because that shot almost always hurts the team. For reference, Biedrins is a worse jumpshooter but only takes 11%. Also, when Zaza shoots inside, he’s been a pretty crappy finisher (53.6% this year. Compare that with any of our players. It’s worse than everyone but Stuckey. Zaza’s a big man who gets a lot of offensive rebounds and tip-in opportunities, to boot). Defensively, he bodies up, but he’s not especially quick, he can’t block shots, he’s not an especially smart defender, and he doesn’t take charges to make up for the lack of leaping ability. He’s fine against some players, but faster big men don’t have big problems scoring against him, and the lack of speed and blocking ability are a bad formula if he’s going to be the last line of defense against penetration.
I’ll add a caveat. I’ve seen most of the Hawks’ home games the past few seasons (I am an unfortunate person), and Pachulia was a useful player two years ago. Horford was obviously a better player, and it was clearly good to have him start. But Atlanta has a weird problem in that it has several players who operate best on the inside (Horford, Childress, Smith, Pachulia), which makes it difficult to operate on offense because Woodson sucked and there just wasn’t great spacing. Woodson’s solution was to let Smith and Pachulia take more jumpers and let Horford and Childress work more on the inside, and this really hurt the team offensively because those two are absolutely terrible shooters. Zaza was also dragged in and out of the lineup all year and was subject to Woodson’s baffling substitution patterns.
He can be a useful player if he’s not mishandled. He draws fouls on offense because he has okay handles and flops a lot. He also hits the offensive glass very well. But for a contending team, he’s more of a quality backup than a legitimate starter.
The big thing with Dwight Howard is that our post defenders severely limited his shot attempts. He shot around 11 times a game, which is around his season average, but he also played at least 8 more minutes a game. Max and Sheed did a great job of denying him proper position (Dwight’s range is still very limited), and usually he doesn’t get shut out like this unless the guards aren’t passing to him. He shot fine when he got the opportunity, but those opportunities were limited a lot, and that’s a big part of playing good defense. Dwight and the Magic in general still outrebounded the team, but in general, we defend Superman consistently better than anyone else in the league.
LB, the guy is a giant white stiff. Seriously TAKE A PILL. You can’t always be right. The fact is that Hawks management has wanted Pachulia to become the inside defensive presence you THINK he is for like, the last 3 years. Hasn’t happened, he’s just not atheltic enough to pull it off (btw, under NEW defensive NBA rules, you know 2005, the ones made to stop Detroit haven’t you noticed it’s mostly the REALLY atheltic guys who are good defenders now and all the “Try really hard” dudes are basically over? Bye Bye Bruce Bowen.). In fact, one well known story from the blogosphere has an Atlanta Hawks executive BURSTING INTO TEARS LAUGHING at a story that Zaza Pachulia held a mouthy/out of control Josh Smith down in the locker room during a fight last season to INSIST he calm down and help the team. To hear the Hawks executive tell it, the Team would have thrown a TICKER TAPE PARADE if Pachulia had shown ANYTHING resembling heart/passion/balls.
So now he gets in ONE scuffle with KG and you’re ready to call him “Ben Wallace part II”. Please. Come again and come harder son.
FWIW btw, I happen to follow the Hawks because they’re my favorite “Instant” rebuilding project on NBA 2KX. I knew who Josh Smith was when they drafted Marvin Williams and I’ve been throwing down 360 dunks with Afro Kid (Childress) for about 3 seasons now (over 200 games even when you sweep every playoff round). In 2k6, I even got Pachulia to like 85 overall with an absolutely disgusting amount of one on one drill work (like 3 seasons worth of Block/Steal and Low Post Defence training, 2 DP’s a month, every month).
Btw, as a completely unrelated side note. Do you think that with his well documented ego and personality “issues”, it would bother Ron-Ron deeply to know that halfway through a thread about bringing him to the Pistons EVERYONE started talking about…. Zaza Pachulia. Seriously can’t you just picture Ron all dressed up like an extra from Cradle2ThaGrave going “WHAT? I GOT WAY MORE GAME THAN ZAZA PACHULIA” while destroying a turn table and beating his wife?
Oh yes, I went there.
PistonsGirl4Life, will you marry me?
LB - this may be the most hilarious thread I have ever read. You know we agree on a lot of points, but I’m w/ the consensus (sp?) on this one mate. You’re drinking the koolaid or smoking that amazing grain out in LA.
Paul M: Whether Pachulia’s 72% includes jumpers, it’s only bested by guys like: Dampier, Diop, Wallace, Perkins, Kwame, and maybe some double-digit scorers like: Howard, Okafor, Curry and Kaman. Really, beyond those nine guys (first five of which many people would take Zaza over on offense), you’ll be hard pressed to find one more player with more FGAs from there. Trust me, I looked. If “28%” is too much, I think the whole NBA is taking too much and you can’t just blame that solely on Zaza.
Starter is just a word, it doesn’t mean “more minutes than”. If Pachulia is more backup than starter on a quality team (what’s considered “quality” for the fifth best scoring option among starters?) how does one explain Perkins winning a ring? Sure, Perkins has decidedly more athleticism than Pachulia resulting in one more block/game (a huge margin I admit), but they’re equal on strength and ball denial, if it’s not even, it’s definitely advantage Pachulia. And my goodness are they miles apart on the offensive end. For one thing, Perkins can’t hit a free throw if he can even earn one. He only got 12 all series against us (2 attempts/game, folks). He made 8 of them (75% is way above any average ever for Perkins). Hell, Pachulia beat him head-to-head in FTAs, 21-17, in Round 1 despite playing as a backup for 15 mins./game to Perkins’ 24+ mins./game as a starter. That’s not for nothing, not by a longshot. Pachulia has post-moves. Perkins has post-move: dunk.
Give Pachulia the starting gig, but get McDyess in there often. It’s not like P.J. Brown didn’t end up getting more minutes/game in the Finals than Perkins. And the talent disparity is closer between those two than Pachulia and Dice. Despite what many reactionaries may want to believe, I’m not an idiot. What I’m saying makes perfect sense. And thank you Paul for realizing I never once said Pachulia was an elite NBA player but that instead he is an absolute great fit on this squad. How people will say a team that was last in the playoffs this season in rebounding wouldn’t benefit from Zaza is beyond me.
For those still in the adolescent lampoon phase, here are the championship starting centers of the 2000s: Perkins, Oberto, O’Neal, Mohammed, Wallace, Robinson, O’Neal, O’Neal, O’Neal. If your name is not O’Neal (who is a once-in-a-decade/generation talent), you are not some sort of big-time weapon. You will be your team’s 5th scoring option (unless your team has Bruce Bowen) and you will like it.
In spite of being named David Robinson, the guy playing in the ‘03 Finals only averaged 10.8, 7.3 and 1.8 in 26.8 mins./game compared to his regular season career averages of 21.1, 10.6 and 3.0 in 34.7 mins. If you’re not Shaq, today’s NBA championship center is elevated by his teammates. That’s the point. Zaza Pachulia on his own doesn’t set a game on fire. That claim would be ridiculous. Zaza Pachulia with four other studs (hypothetically: Chauncey, Rip, Tay, Josh Smith), and he’d be bad ass as all get out for us.
MP: If one of the tenets of your argument against Pachulia is his jump shooting, you can’t compare him to Brezec. Dump it. Pachulia has nowhere near the Euro big man disease Brezec has. Watch a tape of Pachulia. They can have eerily similar stat production but it never came about the same way. Pachulia likes to play by the hoop. My point was never to say that Zaza’s shot selection is good, it’s bad for sure. My point was to simply challenge the false notion that he drifts away from the hoop on offense, as is typical of Euro bigs. He’s atypical in that he doesn’t. Here’s the biggest caveat of them all: he’s a lot physically tougher and mentally stronger of an interior player than most contenders’ starting centers. That’s what the fit hinges on.
And we’re talking about needing shot-blocking, MP? Shot-blocking? Not something we are deficient in, but shot-blocking? Something that we’ve been THIRD in the league each year since Ben left, shot-blocking? Are you serious-ing me? Hell, we were third in the league in ‘04-’05 and ‘05-’06 WITH Ben (we were 1st in ‘03-’04). I guess I do have nothing better to do than explain to you, screw Zaza’s shot-blocking.
Shot-blocking is not Zaza’s mother f’n job. Never has been, will never need to be for us or the Hawks as long as someone like Josh Smith is in the front-court with him. If we wouldn’t have the league’s best personnel for shot-blocking with Josh Smith and Amir (Max unfortunately needing to be dealt with Rasheed in my scenario), what team would? I suppose maybe the Clips with the addition of Camby or the Heat with Marion. Beyond that, I got no one close to being better at blocking at all. Hell, we were 3rd in blocks/game in the regular season and in the playoffs this year anyway, so we don’t need squat. If we added Smith for Rasheed and Max, would Pachulia (or Claxton’s contract) really mess our successful shot-blocking up? If we make a trade for Pachulia we’re going to get Josh Smith. That’s been the freaking point from day one. Isn’t Amir supposed to get more time this season to block more shots anyway? I sure think we all agree he does a damn fine job with blocks and I’d really be all right with us sending Max instead of Amir (Sheed/Max w/either a pick or Samb for Zaza/Claxton and Smith). Pachulia and Amir together give us a lot of what Ben gave (not even two guys can replicate it). If Pachulia denies positioning, a team with our defensive talents would capitalize on help defense.
It’s funny, the Hawks have been right behind us in blocks/game the past two years, in spite of having Pachulia and now another regrettable shot-blocker this season in Horford. Blocking shots is not a problem for either of these teams. We’d be sending Sheed’s 1.7 and Max’s 1.2 from last season’s for Smith’s 2.8 (and Zaza’s paltry .5). Is this a bad thing? Uh, no. But I’m sure all of DBB would love to hear more about how acquiring Pachulia with Josh Smith sabotages our shot blocking.
I was never excited about the trade rumors for either Kobe or for T-Mac (or Baron Davis for that matter). But there are only three players that if Detroit picked up, I would boycott Pistons basketball until they were gone…
Alan Iverson
Ron Artest
“Big Shot” Robert Horry (I’ll never forgive him for beating us
in the ‘06 Finals)
1) I love how the new argument for EVERY youngish/fat/immobile/stiff big is “But Kendrick Perkins won a title”.
Dear world, wake up okay, Vlad Divac could come out of retirement and smoke 2 packs a DAY while training and he’d STILL be capable of winning a championship on a team that starts KG at the other big spot. Seriously why is this even a discussion.
What’s next? Luring Greg Ostertag out of retirement because and I quote “Get real people, KENDRICK PERKINS WON A TITLE WITH SOME OTHER GUYS WHO AREN’T WORTH NAMING”….
Either way LB, you REALLY should calm down. “Defensive” doesn’t even come CLOSE to covering the tone of your last couple posts. Nobody is going to die if we don’t suddenly realize the subtle inner beauty of Zaza Pachulia’s immense talent…
Btw, I just shot milk out my nose typing that last line.
@LB:
“Pachulia likes to play by the hoop.”
Maybe you missed what I wrote:
This year, 43% of his shots were jump shots, on which he shot 30.1%.
“But I’m sure all of DBB would love to hear more about how acquiring Pachulia with Josh Smith sabotages our shot blocking.”
I don’t think anyone on DBB thinks we’d sabotage shot blocking by bringing in Josh Smith.
“And we’re talking about needing shot-blocking, MP?”
Did I ever say Detroit has a problem with shot blocking? No. But its a quality I want in our starting center. I think all those who were calling for more Fro-like qualities in our frontcourt would agree with that.
“Give Pachulia the starting gig, but get McDyess in there often.”
I just threw up in my mouth a little.
Ummmm…yeah is this really a heated discussion about ZaZa Pachulia?
Several things:
-I co-sign what MP, Kevin, and PG4L are saying. Zaza Pachulia? Truly unbelievable. The Zaza crowd is aching for change for the sake of change. Now I know the thought process of Billy King, Kevin McHale, Isaiah Thomas, and Chris Wallace. Thank you for that, I was legitimately curious. I’ll say it again: THE KEY TO BEATING SOMEBODY MEDIOCRE IS NOT TO OUT-MEDIOCRE THEM, IT IS TO OUT-EFFORT AND OUT-TOUGH THEM. Besides, I reject the notion that Kendrick f-ing Perkins was the key to that series. OUR FREAKING UNWILLINGNESS TO DEFEND HIM WAS THE KEY TO THAT SERIES. Why do you have to make me yell?
-LB, dude, please cut down on the 3,000 word posts. It’s been getting worse. I really try to read through them but I just get exhausted from the brow beating and need a nap like halfway through. Present argument, present evidence, end. Thank you.
-Is anybody else legitimately excited that we won’t go into the 9th inning thinking “I should probably take a blood pressure pill because there’s going to be runners on first and second with one out. How is Todd Jones a major league closer?” Friday night was heart breaking. A very difficult loss to swallow.
LEAVE ZAZA ALOOONNNEEE!!!!!!!1!!!
Unless this is leading up to a trade, we can kiss the Biedrins option goodbye.
6 years, $63 million.
http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/53765/20080727/sources_biedrins_agrees_to_new_deal_with_golden_state/
6 years, $63 million is pretty reasonable for Biedrins. I’m skeptical that Mullins would actually deal him. Didn’t Golden State eat like a $10 million trade exception from the Richardson deal? That exception could have allowed them to absorb a big money player in a deal. Seeing as how they didn’t do that, I’d think that they’re serious about keeping both Ellis and Biedrins.
I’m with you, Other Matt. I don’t think they overpaid by a penny. I’m pretty certain that his contract will outlast Nelson’s days in Golden State. When he finally gets his 33+mpg, he’s going to be huge… Since they’ve proven they had the money for him, I think it’d be foolish to move him now (as much as I’d kill to have the guy on our team)
Well, in 5 years, he’ll be a more proven commodity and just entering his prime. Don’t give up hope MP!
I bet Zaza Pachulia would love being a Piston with as much attention that we’re paying him in this post about… Ron Artest?
I’d rather have Nazr Mohammed than Zaza Pachulia.
Zaza Pachulia would be an embarrassment to this community if he were to become the Pistons starting center.
For someone that doesn’t want to argue numbers, you sure have pulled every possible number out of your ass in support of this curly haired goof ball LB.
Go back to telling us how Przybilla is the answer because you saw him play once or twice when he was a Golden Gopher in Bloomington. Or tell us all again how Dalembert for Sheed is a MONEY trade…
I’d take Dalembert and Przybilla over Zaza 7 days a week. Zaza is a joke of an NBA player and will likely be out of the league once his deal runs out.
PG4L: You found the tone of my last couple posts to be something beyond defensive. I think I can respond in one of two ways. I can ridicule, a style I believe that you have amassed experience practicing. Or, I can try to explain my position without making you the object of mockery. Make you the object of disdain, yes, but mockery, no. I think that every post you’ve made regarding Pachulia is epitomized by a tone of ridicule, not disagreement. I don’t believe I invited ridicule by conveying my opinion and I’ve certainly never wanted my DBB to come with a side of derision. I see that as your style more often than not toward DBB a a whole. I believe it to be rude, insulting, lame and yes, rather provocative. I also believe it to be brazen to mock a shared viewpoint, not held exclusively by one.
I’m rather frustrated that you even made a suggestion that I “REALLY should calm down”. To me, that statement is made with great gall. I believe your tendency is to say things that are provocative or attempt to diminish (not simply oppose) others’ opinions. You suggested I calm down. I see your posts over the years showing no intent to pacify intensifying situations but rather to perpetuate it. These posts are no exception. Me taking bait doesn’t erase the fact that you provided it. I take great umbrage at your statement.
I think the DBB community displays courtesy in far greater numbers than discourtesy. I am fully aware that I may be more bothered by it than most, but I don’t believe that to be relevant since turning to ridicule on DBB is a rather uncommon event. When ridicule is injected, well, I’m not the first whose taken the bait and perpetuate. That’s lame of me to perpetuate, but to put me in that position is the far lamer act. Disagreements on DBB absent of ridicule, whether they get resolved or not, tend to dissipate rather quickly and not hijack threads. What’s wrong with only taking that approach?
*grabs popcorn*
Bah, I didn’t even keep reading it. “Dear LB, you win, clearly Zaza Pachulia is the answer. I fail to understand how I couldn’t have seen it before”.
Seriously LB and I actually mean this, this is mean being 100% honest with you here and I’m sorry you aren’t going to like it but…. I couldn’t care if you look like an idiot anymore.
As of now you just earned yourself a free pass. I will NEVER EVER EVER EVER respond to another one of your posts (lord knows this week has been rare, I actually got 3 days off work, so it’s not like I was going to reply to alot of them anyways)… I now realize you’re just too fragile of a person.
*PG4L hands you some ice* “For the sand, in your umm… woman region”
*finishes popcorn, gets up from chair, let down from lack of fireworks*
I dunno, MP, Boney left a lot of bait in his post.
*nukes another bag of popcorn, one for Other Matt too*
File Under: Hope to God This is True.
Celtics are reportedly interested in Darius Miles.
I’m not sure why the Pistons would add Atlanta players to any deal for Josh Smith to make the deal work out in terms of $$$. I would think that Amir, Maxiell, and Afflalo (aprox $6.5 M total) would be what Joe Dumars is trying to give Atlanta for Josh Smith. Realize that Smith could walk next year and Atlanta would get nothing. Atlanta has a very thin roster and needs depth. They aren’t going anywhere with Tayshaun Prince at SF and I doubt Rasheed would report anyplace if he’s traded.
Quick Darshan - If I were an NBA GM I’d sign Darius Miles to a 10-day contract just to screw Portland. If you play him 30 seconds a game for 10 games you stick the Trailblazers with a $17 million dollar bill. Why WOULDN’T you do it?
joejoejoe, I really hope that’s true. Portland is going to be terrifying in a couple of years with all that talent. Sticking them with a $17 million tab would be a nice way to make sure some of it winds up on the open market.
“Why WOULDN’T you do it?”
Because the Celtics aren’t at risk of Portland purloining their free agents, and won’t likely have to meet them in the playoffs.
That said, I do think one team will do it. Ordinarily, this sort of move would be dangerous, insofar as a team can turn around and throw an immense offer at a restricted free agent down the road. Pritchard isn’t going to get his ego involved that way, so it would certainly make sense to execute this plan if you have a vested interest in seeing Portland fail.
Yeah, Biedrins is gone. Too bad. They’re paying a lot for a team that at best is a contender to make the playoffs out west. I think it’s better than losing another talented player to Europe, though.
LB: 28% isn’t too much relative to the rest of the league. It’s too much because he really sucks at jumpers. That figure was much higher this year, and the Hawks suffered for it.
I’m going to stay out of the way of weird DBB politics, which I’m clearly not familiar with, but in this strangely heated discussion regarding a player who probably is not in a deal for a player we may or may not be trading for, I’m probably in the middle. Zaza is not the D-League level scrub or the lumbering circus freak that a lot of people think he is, but he doesn’t really do a lot of the things that LB claims he can do, either.
He’s not a smart defender. He loses his head a lot, commits unnecessary fouls, and has several instances where he’s unaware of defensive rotations. He is willing to play physical defense, but he arguably gets overzealous and tends to foul more than he should. He also lacks quickness, and one of the biggest knocks against him defensively is that he lacks the basic tools to do much against penetration (doesn’t take charges, lacks the jumping ability to block) except foul. He isn’t an overall asset to defenses because he has so many weaknesses in that regard, but he doesn’t take plays off and is physical.
His post game isn’t great. It’s not one that necessarily demands much attention, and he’s more of a threat to draw fouls than he is to actually finish. His release isn’t pretty and it’s pretty easy to block. The guy also almost never dunks.
It’s hard to argue that he doesn’t float away from the basket, because he clearly does, and he was worse about it last year than ever (which was a Woodson decision, but he’s still not a player that camps out in the paint).
The guy can be a decent rotation player, but not if he plays as badly as he did last season. The thing is, he had a decent track record the two years before, and it really shouldn’t be sacrilege to think he could contribute.
Maybe Sacramento does it because they’re pissed off that Portland swindled Indiana and in turn kept Bayless from falling to them at 12? I didn’t understand that trade from Indiana’s perspective at all. My man-love for Brandon Rush is well documented, but the NBA is a guard’s game now and Indiana gave up the 2 best players in that deal (Bayless and Diogu).
He’s not a smart defender. He loses his head a lot, commits unnecessary fouls, and has several instances where he’s unaware of defensive rotations. He is willing to play physical defense, but he arguably gets overzealous and tends to foul more than he should. He also lacks quickness, and one of the biggest knocks against him defensively is that he lacks the basic tools to do much against penetration (doesn’t take charges, lacks the jumping ability to block) except foul. He isn’t an overall asset to defenses because he has so many weaknesses in that regard, but he doesn’t take plays off and is physical.
This sounds great. He’s definitely going to help fix our (debatable) interior defense problems. Sign me up twice.
If a team’s going to screw Portland over, it’s probably going to be someone out west. That makes me think that Boston is actually interested in Miles as a player, which is madness. The guy’s potential was way overrated even when he had functional legs. He was always the type of player who could dazzle at workouts but fail to accomplish much in a team setting. Go for it, Boston.
Hey, you didn’t have to watch him give up points to penetrators. You’ve also never seen the team go to Zaza and Smith for jumpers on three consecutive possessions. God, Woodson is a bad coach. People complain about Flip, but it could easily be so much worse.
Sorry, I suffer from Hawks basketball-induced trauma.
Paul, no worries…. I’m a Detroit Lion’s fan.
No, really.
*Weeps*
Fwiw, Joe Johnson is the Baron Davis of the Eastern Conference imho. The man has so much game he DRAGS that organization to competativeness (sp?). I’d trade Tay AND Rip for him, 4really
I didn’t know about that whole screwing Portland by signing Darius Miles thing. That being said, having Darius Miles on your team and in uniform makes your team immeasurably worse. He’s a complete waste of wingspan.
*standing ovation for pg4l*
PistonsGirl4Life,
How dare you say those things to the official voice of DBB!
Pg4l can join me and mp’s tag team as we turn this mofo into a royal rumble…
This thread is embarrassing. For everybody involved.
And wasn’t LB’s whole point that Zaza would be a decent player as an add-on in a Josh Smith deal? I mean, we do need help/depth at the 5, and if this guy basically came over for free to make a deal work, isn’t that kind of killing two birds with one stone? You people need to chill. Nobody’s dad is that much cooler than anybody else’s.
If you guys REALLY want to see Darius Miles’ skills in full effect, check this:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0314498/
Why, Darius? Or better yet, why, casting director/writers?
This isn’t related to LB, PG4L, or Zaza, but check out Chauncey Billups — he’s trying his hand at some fashion! What’s up with that? Fierce!
http://www.wnba.com/idesign (second one across the bottom)
(uh, my wife watches Project Runway and sometimes I pass through the room on my way to the weight room or a football game or something equally masculine and testosterone-driven)
Yikes…
Chauncey, that is one ugly shirt.
Looks kind of metal/hippie.
“Zaza Pachulia would DEFINITELY have the kind of impact I’d hope to get from a Kwame Brown”
This doesn’t sound like Zaza is a “throw in”
besides, Atlanta obviously wants us to give up the farm for Josh Smith.
Think they wanted Stuckey?
Yeah, I doubt they’re gonna just chuck Zaza in a deal as a throwaway. If anything, they’d probably want us to eat Claxton’s contract, or they might ask for Stuckey.
Not necessarily in favor of this idea, but seems to make sense to me.
Chauncey/Rasheed for Bibby/J.Smith
exchange expiring contracts of Wallace and Bibby.
Atlanta would have a great combo guard backcourt and Horford to build on. With Marvin Williams and Rasheed that is a good starting roster for next year.
We get a lot younger and still have the expiring contract. leaves more room for Stuckey to grow into the PG slot.
Again, not sure how i would feel about it.. but seems to help both teams in some way.
And apparently, we’re not the Eastern Conference team with the deal, so all this idle speculation is… just that.
http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2008/07/pistons_keeping_an_eye_on_hawk.html
Dumars has still expressed interest, though.
Wouldn’t trading Prince alone suggest he was the only problem with the Pistons? It wouldn’t seem fair to single him out like this after all he’s done for us.
…and to trade him for Artest? Joe Dumars must be on crack.
Just get Ben Wallace back and that will solve all of our problems, even if he’s half of what he used to be.
Apparently, we’re not the Eastern Conference team with an offer for Smith.
http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2008/07/pistons_keeping_an_eye_on_hawk.html
Dumars has expressed interest, but it’s not us with a deal in the works.
According to mlive (the links aren’t going through for some reason), we’re not the Eastern Conference team with a sign and trade deal in the works. Dumars is interested but hasn’t talked to Atlanta for a while.
aaron n, i had the EXACT swap in my head at one point (but never posted it.) i don’t know how much better it makes us TODAY. but in the long run, it might be a good deal.
and then paul m goes and murders my hopes. (via mlive.)
If Atlanta had any decent management/ownership they could have such a bright future right now.
Ignoring past mistakes of Marvin Williams over CP3/Deron and taking Shelden Williams a couple years back, they could still have a great future if they picked up Stuckey instead of AC Law, actually showed a little interest in Childress and poneyed up some money for J. Smith.
Their starting 5 could be Stuckey, Joe Johnson, Childress, Smith, Horford. Joe Johnson would be the oldest of the crew and he just turned 27. You let that team grow together and get some decent backups and you’re making a lot of noise in the next couple years.
Lessons from the on-going true center conversation:
* That I am exceedingly more comfortable the idea of Amir and Max as our future starters in a year or two, if they both continue progressing. We would be fine against 28 out of 30 teams (all but LA with Pao/Bynum and if we catch Houston on one of the 35 games Yao is not injured).
* That this is how Jerome James 5 years/$30 million, Eddy Curry 6 years/$60 million and 2 first rounders, Adonal Foyle 6 years/$42 million, Erik Dampier 7 year/$73 million, Zach Randolph 6 years/$84 million, etc. happens.
* One day we will remember that Kendrick Perkins actually sucks. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
* How many big man rotations in the league would you take over Sheed/Dyess/Maxiell/Amir? I’d take Portland, LAL, and maybe Toronto or Phoenix. And none of them go as deep as us.
* Joe D. is a tease.
If Atlanta were to somehow get Billups and Sheed from us for Josh Smith, they’d become a clear favorite to upset the Celtics.
If Atlanta had consistent PG play during the playoffs, they would’ve upset the Celtics and likely would’ve beaten us.
Billups will cause them to slow down the pace, but he’s a better districbutor than Bibby ever thought he could be.
Josh Childress would want to come back to Atlanta if he knew they were going to acquire Billups and Sheed.
Sorry, but i personally don’t think that ATL lineup with Billups and Wallace makes them best of the east next season… Maybe if they still had Childress. They’d be really good, but at the cost of gambling with their future. BUT if any team should gamble with their future it is ATL. That is pretty much what Boston finally did last summer. Billups and Wallace are no KG though. But Horford is a lot better than Perkins.
Detroit would lose a lot of it’s 3pt shooting w/o Billups/Wallace. Bibby might be extra motivated in his final year of that contract though.
Shinons, don’t forget Dwight Howard. I might take a big man rotation of Dwight Howard/a bag of potato chips/my left nut/Brian Scalabrine.
Boney, I sure hope Atlanta doesn’t see that last post of yours and get any crazy thoughts. No way I’d be willing to give up that much for Josh Smith. I like him next to Sheed but I don’t like him next to Dice, Max or Amir at the 5. That simply leaves us too small man. If we give us Sheed, we need some size in return. I’m not saying just size, of course I mean talent, not size only. Atlanta plays Josh at the power forward but I’m only willing to do that if Sheed is there as well. Atlanta would be crazy as hell for turning that down. They’d have to throw in Bibby to match salaries probably, but remember…………………..we’re not trying to make Atlanta better, we’re focusing on Detroit getting the best end of any deal. This is DBB remember. I’ll personally pass on this one Bro.
E Double,
I never said we should make that trade, I simply offered a reply to an earlier post from some other nincumpoop offering that as an option
You can pass on it this late in the day if you want, I passed on it a long time ago homeboy.
Just like I’ve passed on every other trade possibility that has been posted by people other than Matt Watson or kevin s and Mike Payne.
I play for “Team Good Guy”, I don’t sell out my players just because Kendrick Perkins won an NBA Championship. Take that noise to your boyfriend’s website if you want to raise that ruckus.
yeah, Josh Smith would give us 4 solid PFs… and no real center (unless another deal/signing followed…trade Prince and move Smith to 3?…sign Kwame?).
Still a Smith/McDyess/Amir/Maxiell frontline is nothing to sneeze at. Don’t forget we survived many years with undersized Ben Wallace at the 5. If the team defense is there, size is no big deal.(pun!) And this team is smart enough to play good team defense.
By the way, I started this stupid idea, not Boney. I was just thinking out loud. I’d prefer to keep Prince and Wallace… speaking purely as a Piston fan.
Aaron N,
I’d give the Hawks:
Billups
Prince
for
Smith
Law IV
Zaza (just because it would give LB morning wood)
I like that deal, Boney.
Not even sure if we need Law… depending what we can get out of Hunter… or signa a FA PG.
Chad Ford has the updated FA list, forgot about Francisco Elson!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=FreeAgents-080629
“depending on what we can get out of Hunter”
did i really say that? probably need more than (retiring) Hunter and Bynum at back-up PG.
Let’s throw some cash at Jason Williams.
My bad Boney, I see we’re on the same page man. I’ll also pass on the front line of Smith/Dice/Amir/Maximus. Pleae tell me who guard Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Superman Howard? We did great as a team on Howard but Max can’t do it alone. I hate saying this man, but Sheed has to stay if we don’t get a big in return for him. Smith is a 3, masquerading as 4 in Atlanta’s sytem. Its becoming more and more obvious that people have a whole lot more confidence, this early, in Amir than I do. Not saying he isn’t full of potential and may help us this year, but trade Sheed and have a front line of Smith/Dice/Amir/Max are you kidding me? (That’s not intended at you Boney). And for anyone who didn’t watch a ton of Hawks games last year, A.C Law is trash. Maybe that statement is being made based on his potential coming out of college, but his skills have not transferred to the NBA well. He didn’t show me much last year. Anyway, you can’t have a PG group full of 2nd year players. I’ve had a long day at the office. Maybe I should stop while I’m ahead before I offend anyone and get snippy.
I think Fransisco Elson forgot about Fransisco Elson.
“If Atlanta had consistent PG play during the playoffs, they would’ve upset the Celtics and likely would’ve beaten us.”
My ass they would have. Atlanta was outscored by 84 in that series, 12 a game. They won some really close ones at home, but they were beyond terrible on the road. Maybe if the consistent point guard were Chris Paul, you’d have something.
For the record, I would have no problem if the team didn’t make a huge splash this offseason. Detroit was the second best team in the league this year, and this year’s group is probably the strongest it’s been since the two Finals runs. We were competitive against what was clearly the best team in the league right as they peaked, and that was with a glaring deficiency on the boards. The starters all have games that age gracefully (Chauncey has arguably improved, weirdly enough), McDyess and Prince had year long shooting slumps, and I like what I hear about Curry.
That doesn’t even touch the bench, which was at times brilliant this year. Max has added something to his game every year and is now a credible jump shooter. Stuckey was rough but showed poise in the playoffs. Amir may never be a huge offensive threat, but he’s shown that he can make an impact on the boards and on the defensive end. I think Afflalo will round out to be a competent backup at least.
So yeah. I don’t talk about trades because I want to gut the team or because I’m selling the players out or any crap like that. Trades are pretty much the only thing there is to talk about in this point in the summer, and there are still some interesting players like Smith or Okafor who could help the team a lot without having to lose too many pivotal guys.
Paul M, you hit the nail right on the head. I was thinking about this on my walk home from work today (wooo, city living) and I don’t know that there are a lot of deals out there that make a whole lot of sense for us. Obviously, I’d love to have Josh Smith, especially if we just had to give up Tay and a guy like Afflalo or Amir. That’s a good deal for us because it changes us dynamically. We get an explosive, young, defensive minded player. A deal for a McGrady or Melo type player makes sense, but I don’t think those deals are available.
Our team was put together in deliberate manner and everything just kind of fits. You can’t ship Rasheed Wallace out of town without getting something comparable in return. I know he’s moody and inconsistent, and sometimes makes me want to put my foot through my TV, but how do you replace the skill set he brings? He can still defend guys like Dwight Howard and KG. And we must have somebody who can do that on our team.
You can’t ship out Billups without getting at least 1 guard or a piece you can turn into a PG in a subsequent deal. His cocksure attitude pisses us all off, but how do you replace a top tier PG? It doesn’t make sense to get rid of him, because the NBA is a guard’s game now and his game will translate well as he gets into his mid 30s.
You can’t deal Rip without getting at least 1 guard and a big man in return. He’s the most expendable to me because you can plug Stuckey in at the 2 immediately and not see a substantial drop off. I do think Rip’s defense is really underrated and I think he carried us at times this post season, including getting to the line when he didn’t have it going offensively. Even if you deal him, you crush our depth in the back-court because now we need an additional combo guard to help spell both Stuck and Billups.
I’d prefer to not deal Tayshaun unless you get a significant upgrade (Hi Josh Smith). I don’t think he was the problem for us. He’s the consummate glue guy, does all the little things without asking or wanting credit. Is quietly the most thoughtful and intense player on our team. He gives us a handful of quality minutes every night as a point-forward, which is goes largely unnoticed by the DBB community. He was also terrific in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs and did a satisfactory job guarding Paul Pierce (in my opinion, especially considering how well Pierce was playing).
So that’s the challenge. We can’t really go 2 starters for 1 superstar unless we’re getting a top 10 player who can basically do all the things that we’d need (rebound, play solid defense, be a legitimate 1st option). Let’s see what happens with Curry. Let’s see if he’ll improve our toughness and team defense the way we all hope he can. And if it’s obvious he isn’t enough, then let’s make a move as soon as we figure that out. I’m not making phone calls to other GMs, but I don’t see the right deal for us out there (Smith not withstanding).
I’m with you in regards to not advocating major trades this off-season (but would be interested in a Smith or Okafor, or trading Vets for picks), however if the team doesn’t do anything in terms of trades or, what I’d prefer, change of lineup and/or major playing time - it’d be absolutely absurd. Whether we were getting to the finals, or losing in the first round, there’s no way you can justify getting to the same place three years in a row, losing to three different opponents and not changing anything major. The only way that could be justified is if we were a young team, and 3 of our starters are past their prime. Hamilton does the same exact thing every year, and most people on here don’t seem to think very highly on Prince’s potential or his defense for that matter. I thought it was crazy after two years to do nothing, but three years calls for something. Like I’ve said before, I think most of our answers (because we can’t get much for our vets in trades) sit on the bench and either don’t play really at all or don’t play enough. But you can’t lose the rebound battle that drastically and then justify going back out there with the same setup. Even if Maxiel and Stuckey play 5+ more minutes off the bench this year than they did at the end of the season, that’s not enough. We can’t go back out there next post-season with our starting front-court that averages roughly 20 points and 15 rebounds a game, combined. Most of the teams we’ll face have frontcourt guys that have the potential to do that by themselves (Garnett, Howard, Brand, Bosh-O’Neal, even Jamison almost does that on his own in the playoffs). I realize we won’t allow all of the ones I listed to do that each game, but they all have that potential.
Also-No one on here thinks Perkins is a talented player. I’ve read all the posts, that has never been said by anyone, though it has been rebutted redundantly. No one has called for Calvin Booth. Perkins has only been mentioned in posts where someone is complaining about our defense. Whether it is our defense or our scoring in the paint or our rebounding that is our primary culprit, can be debated, but it’s impossible to not look at those three things as the keys. Fact is, Perkins won his matchup against McDyess. The played nearly the same amount of minutes - but Perkins had more rebounds, less fouls, less than half the turnovers, three times as many blocks. The only category that McDyess won was points, he scored 12 more points on 12 more shots (which isn’t good.)
So - let’s think about this. Everyone hate Perkins. Labels him worthless. But, he clearly outplayed his counterpart on our team. Do I really need to connect the dots here? People will backlash: “We had to double their stars?” True, we did do that… sometimes. Not often. And not usually using McDyess. Usually it was leaving Rando or Perkins open in fact - so there still should have somebody to rebound the ball. And also, they double teamed as well, but didn’t falter on the boards. “McDyess does other things!” Really? What exactly? I know he cries in the locker room after we lose, but other than that. This is exactly why people are recommending guys like Zaza. No, he’s not Ben Wallace. Yes, he’s more or less Kendrick Perkins or Calvin Booth - but according to the Perkins stats - that’s an upgrade in rebounding and toughness, youth, and not a severe decrease, if any, in scoring. So, why is this bad? Oh, that’s right, just because people like to say Perkins and Zaza sucks. That’s right. Oh, right don’t forget to mention Calvin Booth. It’d be nice to have a guy getting in Garnett’s face, talented or not. The only guy that we have that would do that is Rasheed, but he’d only get in Garnett’s face to give him a hug and kiss. I don’t advocate a Kwame or Zaza trade, because it seems like we have guys that our so highly touted on our bench to not give them a real chance to produce would be insanity - but if we come back with our same starting lineup of Sam Perkins and Donyell Marshall in the front court we won’t improve on the season.
Also, why are we the second best team in the league? Just because of the regular season record? Is everyone convinced we would have beaten LA in a series? That’s interesting. It just seems like several Western Conference teams have a better claim to that label.
Other Matt…nice post, I agree with almost everything you are saying.
If we come back with the same team I think we have a pretty good shot of finishing with best record in the league (health permitting). Like you said, we have a veteran core who should age well, so I don’t see a significant drop-off from anyone. These veterans will have extra motivation with a new coach they respect more then the last one plus the trading deadline isn’t until February so they’ll be playing for their jobs. The Zoo Crew will be even better then last year, they’ll want to earn more playing time and you know they will bring 100% effort everytime they touch the floor. Unlke the ‘05/’06 team that won 64 games with the starters playing major minutes, this team could win that much with a much more even distribution of minutes between the bench and starters.
So my issue is that we may not be able to ‘know’ during the regular season if we need to make a trade. IMO our biggest issue in the playoffs has been that we don’t have that one go to guy who can create his own shot or create for others. Over a 7 game series teams learn our sets and they take away our 1st couple options and force some one to try and create their own shot which is something we aren’t great at.
But, there are a couple things that could happen during the regular season that could indicate the playoffs may be different this year. Curry has stressed getting more points in the paint, so if we are able to do that through pick and rolls, posting up, etc. that would be a great sign. The other thing is the growth of Stuckey. My feelings on Stuckey are equivalent to Mike P’s on Amir…I think the guy is the real deal. He’s the one guy on our team who can get to the rim at will and if he can really blow up this year we may have everything we need to take the title.
How big is this point guard top tier?
How can Hamilton be the most expendable? Because of Stuckey? With Stuckey’s shot selection it’d take twice as many shots to get him averaging what Hamilton does. He’s led the team in scoring since he’s been here. He’s a good defender. He’s the best, and most used option, when the team actually needs a basket. Chauncey does his flail himself at the basket, spread his legs on wild arrant jump shots, to create some cheap fouls often in the clutch, but Hamilton is more clutch in a talent-skillful way. Unless we’re bringing in a major scorer, like the T-Mac rumors were true or something, he would have to be the least expendable. Half the plays that the team runs on offensive are curls and double screens to get Hamilton setup for shots. What would our offense be? A mixture of Tayshaun hooks and Billups and Stuckey doing D-Wade impressions. Even if we got a guy like Smith, who scores almost as much at the same FG% (but yet everyone knocks for having no offensive game) - it would be still be majorly disruptive to the offense the team has been running. No offense to Tay, but Hamilton is the team’s Elmers.
Lawyerboy: Please stop abusing words when they are not needed, being verbose does not make you seem any more like a lawyer. Concise and direct argumentative writing is usually a better demonstration of intelligence.
Your rambling diatribes and overpowering personal flame-wars make me want to stop reading this site.
This thread seems to reflect the the most painful commonly-held sentiment among Pistons fans: we want a player like Dwight Howard as our missing piece, but know that this is impossible right now. As such, we try to find anyone or anything to fill that void even though the pickins are mighty slim.
Clearly Dumars foresaw Big Ben’s decline and drafted Darko as his heir. Had he panned out, we might have multiple championships and no worries at the 5 spot. Instead, we have Rodney Stuckey and a bunch of forwards. Until we find another archetypal low-post banger to complete Joe D’s vision of the Pistons, we will always be at a disadvantage on the boards and in the paint.
“Quick-fixes” of mediocre players with center-like measureables will only mask the fact that this team is *designed* to have a physically dominant center.
Pistons just inked the Phenom: Kwame Brown.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3508699&CMP=OTC-DT9705204233
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3508699
We signed Kwame Brown…2 year deal for $4 Million per year.
First reaction to the trade…that’s good value for Kwame. Only a 2 year deal, so we still have cap space in 2010.
So we now have 5 big guys in Kwame, Sheed, Amir, Dyess, and Max who all deserve some minutes…I have a feeling something else is going to happen soon.
Juicebox, this is pretty much what I’ve been saying:
I wonder how much of our defensive problems were to blame on Flip. I wonder how much of it was our guys tuning Flip out and doing whatever they pleased. We should have stayed home, played Boston straight up, and made their Big 3 go for 80 a night. We didn’t do that. WE LET Perkins get easy baskets and that forced us to get out of what we were trying to do. I think we can all agree that improvisation and adjusting were not Flip Saunders strong suits. I don’t think Perkins is as bad as some around here. I think he’s mediocre and pretty much does what Boston needs him to do (not be totally useless, have a big body, convert some easy baskets, and grab some rebounds). The answer to battling a guy like that is not to out-mediocre him with Calvin Booth or Zaza Pachulia. That’s a waste of a roster spot and it’s a waste of minutes throughout the season that would be better served seeing exactly what we have with some of our bench guys. We need to put a body on him and make him earn it. I don’t care if we have to put Lindsay Hunter on him, we have to make him earn his points and rebounds.
I agree that changes need to be made. One major change was already made. I wonder if Max moving to the starting lineup isn’t another. I think it’s really hard to effectively dispute the notion that we were the 2nd best team in the league. We had 59 wins. We won a large percentage of our games against the West. We played Boston about as well as anybody not named LeBron (and I still think that series going 7 was the best thing that could’ve happened to Boston).
The challenge is not to make change for the sake of change. It has to make us better. I don’t see a whole lot of deals out there that make us better.
I’m with you, Jim. I have a feeling this deal is setting us up to package one of our young bigs, Maxey or Amir, with Tayshaun for Josh Smith. Who knows, but I think it makes the most sense for Atlanta, unless they’re getting some outrageous offer from another team.
Kudos to QuickDarshan and others who were calling for Brown early on. At $2 mil/yr., I don’t think we’ll find anyone complaining with this one.
we got kwame brown
Okay, I’ll go on record and say that I don’t like this Kwame Brown thing.
Props, however, to LB for getting what he wanted.
Kwame’s now a Piston and I basically root for the jersey… so WOOOOO Kwame!
Yeah, I agree that this seems like a precursor to a bigger move. I’ll bet on Tay and Amir for Smith and some terrible contract.