In internet years, this rumor already decades old, but I haven’t touched officially on it yet and would like to offer my two cents. Sam Amick of the Sacramento Bee recently listed several possible destinations for Ron Artest and surprisingly included Detroit:
Could this be why Artest was so interested in interviewing brawl instigator John Green a while back? It would be a brilliant PR move if the Pistons were looking to put a package together for Artest.
And from what I was told from one source close to the Pistons, they are. I’ve yet to get this info from more than one person, so stay tuned. But much like the Mavs’ situation, this could be one of those where the player the Kings want (perhaps Tayshaun Prince) would be different than the one offered (Jason Maxiell, anyone?). Pure speculation on my part in terms of the potential pieces.
[Update: Amick found a second source to verify Detroit’s interest.]
For PR reasons alone, I’d be shocked if the Pistons pulled the trigger unless they could get him for 50 cents on the dollar, and given the alleged league-wide interest in Artest, I’m not sure that will ever happen. But let’s say it did … would you endorse the move?
Call me crazy, but I would. Strictly speaking from a basketball perspective, Artest is an incredible talent. He’s an extremely strong and physical player capable of guarding the best player on the opposing team, regardless of position. I enjoy watching Tayshaun Prince as much as anyone, but would Artest ever let LeBron James score 25 straight? Would he allow Paul Pierce to slice and dice the defense? No chance.
No one wants to win more than Artest. He’s notorious for playing as hard in the opening minutes of a game as he does down the stretch of a close game — he only has one gear. When the Kings came to town in January, Artest was playing just his second game after missing nine with an elbow injury. He was awful during a 25-point loss in his first game back in Toronto, and talking with him two nights later, I remember being surprised at how his performance was still eating at him:
“I was pissed. I was pissed that we lost. I was pissed that I came back and I couldn’t help my team win. I was pissed at myself. I just felt like I let my team down, I was so pissed. We talked about it when we got back to the hotel and everybody was back on the same page.” […] “Right after the game I got dressed and Reggie [Theus] finished talking and I left. I just walked back to the hotel, I was so pissed. Lost by about 20 points, that’s not fun.”
The Pistons have had guys like Antonio McDyess wear their heart on their sleeves like this in the playoffs, but this was after a regular season game in January. Yeah, I’ll take an attitude like that in the locker room any day.
I know, I know … but isn’t Artest a little crazy? Don’t believe the caricature the media has painted of him, because he’s probably one of the most complex guys in the NBA. Read this interview he did with The Starting Five in December — it’s one of the most thoughtful and introspective interviews you’ll ever find, and it sheds some light on the other side of Artest that we rarely get to see.
Yes, he’s absolutely made some mistakes that make me cringe, but unlike a lot of athletes he seems to always try owning up to them in the end. No, it doesn’t excuse them, but it counts for something.
Hell, I’m not even mad anymore about the Malice at the Palace — I pin that ugly chapter of Pistons lore on John Green. (And besides, Charles Barkley once brawled with the fans at the Palace — does that still define who he is? Of course not. If Artest’s involvement in that incident is still a poison pill to accepting everything else he brings to the table, you need a broader sense of perspective.)
In the end, none of this really matters — I’d be absolutely shocked if the Pistons actually pulled the trigger, especially if it involved giving up squeaky clean Tay. But is this something I’d like to see? Absolutely.
I would disagree with the part where you say Artest has a burning desire to win. When the Pistons played Indiana in the ECF, I remember Artest making a stupid and obvious cheap shot that basically tipped a close game into Detroit’s favor.
As I said on another thread, that’s the kind of losing attitude that I’ve bashed Sheed for.
Then, there’s the whole wanting to take time off to concentrate on music.
I really wonder if the guy loves basketball and desires to win a title.
FREE RICK MAHORN!!!
Maxiell for Artest, yes. Tayshaun for Artest, no.
I think Prince’s role in the Pistons being good at taking care of the basketball on offense is underrated and that more than anything is what has made this team special over the years. Rip isn’t a great ballhandler and Chauncey can always throw it to Tay’s 7-foot wingspan and let him initiate the offense and/or take the last second shot.
Swap Prince for Artest and I’m seeing one superior passer and 4 average passers in the Detroit starting lineup. I don’t care what other qualities the players bring, that strikes me as a bad mix.
Can we trade DeVon Hardin for him?
If so, I co-sign!!!!
Since day one of Detroit’s off-season, my main interest as a fan is getting an SF (to replace or back up Tay) that can shut down who I see as the gatekeepers of the ECF: Lebron and Pierce. Tay can’t do it. With this, I agree with Matt– Artest could shut them down better than any other SF in the league, most likely.
He’s an absolute nutcase. He’s also a nutcase with one season left on his contract. Bringing Artest in without losing much could give us precisely what we need to win a championship. After this season is over, he’s gone. If we want to bring him back, we can. But as this stands– he’d only have one season in Detroit, guaranteed, which I think is worth the risk.
I about lost my mind when people on DBB were suggesting an Artest trade earlier in the season. I was wrong. They were right. I support this now. But if his contract was any longer than one season, I would absolutely not do it.
Maxiell for Artest: in a heartbeat. Tayshaun for Artest: in a coin toss.
I’ll tell you one thing, if other teams’ fans hated D-town before (which they all do, vehemently), I can’t imagine the reaction after we added Ron-Ron to the crew.
Mike P: Artest here for one year, then what do we do for the SF after that? Sharpe next year? Get Hermann for two years and he takes over next? I don’t think we get anyone out there on the FA market next year for what we’re paying Tay, not to mention someone at that price who is that good.
And I would prefer not to tie up RonRon for a long-term deal. He’s whacked. He leads us to a chip, and his market price goes up…don’t know who would pay, but if we’re going to do it, I’d like to see him signed for 2 or 3 years but he’s probably going to ask for 10-13M/yr in year 1.
But, I do believe he’s the only one in the league capable of shutting down LeBron & Pierce…shutting down being what it would be with those two.
I can definitely understand the appeal to this trade, but it would leave us with some strong personalities to blend together. Three of our starters would have finished in the top 25 of most techs last season. I still believe that the reason we lost in 2006 was the locker room dynamic with Ben quitting on us.
Also, I don’t really see Artest as much of an upgrade over Tay. He’d be nice to bring in as a change of pace off the bench, but would he be happy in that role? Risky. I’m voting no on this one, even if it’s for 50 cents on the dollar.
@Mark Butter:
It depends on what Deng and Marion do, really. If they stick around for the last year of their contract, they’d be free agents after next season. Those are two big targets, just for example.
We’d have nearly $9 million off the books for Artest and $13.5 million off the books for Rasheed. With $22.5 million, we’d likely be the biggest player in the 2009 free agent market. Since 2010 is the big trade market, it might be possible to hold a chunk of that to pair with Rip’s expiration and make some sexy moves.
And by “sexy moves”, I mean “like a dance”. It’ll be fun.
MikeP: I hear ya, but Marion’s asking for more than the 17M he’s at now, though the market will dictate differently. Deng, I think Chi either signs him long-term or sign and trade this summer. But Deng’s defense on LeBron or Pierce doesn’t excite me, some of the 22M available will have to be done to replace/resign Sheed.
If they’re talking about Smith asking 12M+ now, who are we going to get (i.e. 2 players) for ~12M each that are going to be better than Tay/Sheed? This is just a general question, I don’t expect names and what not. But just on the surface you’re trying to replace basically 2 all-stars for 12M each. It’s possible but I think you end up putting all your eggs into one basket. Some of that money will be needed for Max and in 2010, I believe Amir’s contract is up.
As for the techs issue, I think Curry can handle that, but we need a strong leader to set the tone…a tone different than the one Chauncey has set the last couple of years.
My biggest fear right now is the pistons go into the season without any changes, play balls to the wall and come Feb after the trade deadline, each of them say Joe D was just blowing smoke and revert back to their lackadasical ways.
Let’s just trade Tayshaun for President Bush and Chauncey Billups for Dick Chaney. That will be the equivelant of trading for Ron Artest.
Did you guys see the brawl last night between the Shock and L.A.?
I believe that talking Ron Artest up actually contributed to that brawl.
Before the brawl, Artest was one of the players I most wanted to see in Detroit. Even now I still think he’d be a good addition to the team, but I don’t think he’s the player he was a few years ago & wouldn’t swap Prince or Max for him.
Statistically, Artest ranked among the 10 most overrated players in the NBA last season. http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/who-is-the-most-overrated-in-2007-08/
Meanwhile, Prince ranked among the top 15 at small forward. http://www.wagesofwins.com/15SF0708.html
I dunno, I think Artest’s defensive reputation is a little overstated these days. The handcheck rules really screwed up his ability to defend, and he’s not quick enough to defend against players with great first steps. He can handle bulkier guys for stretches (James, Pierce), but even then, he has a hard time containing them without getting into foul trouble. His opponent PERs in Sacramento have also been terrible. It’s not a perfect measuring stick, but it’s usually not a great sign for someone touted as a defensive stopper.
On offense, he had a hard time recognizing that Kevin Martin was a much better scoring option. He can have stretches where he takes over offensively, but he also falls in love with his jumper sometimes, which probably hurt more than it helped.
Ok. That’s enough. Stop it damnit. Maximus is not getting traded for Ron Artest, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Babe Ruth, Walter Payton or anyone else. Now thats enough of this non-sense. I command you to stop it. Why don’t we trade Amir? I’m sure everyone wants him cause he’s the second coming. But Maximus is not on the market. Now stop this crazy talk, I say!!!
And please stop it with the use of the damn PER stat. When the hell did talking about pts, rebs, assts, steals, blocks, straight up get replaced by all this PER shit. This is my last warning before I got postal damnit. No more talk about trading Maximus. I’m warning you S.O.B.’s!!!!
David Stern will never allow a team with Sheed and Artest to win a championship. He will also not allow said team to ever play on National TV preventing Pistons fans outside of Michigan and without League Pass to ever see them play.
This would go down in history as the greatest trade ever made if it happened. I would trade Prince for Artest any day. Prince seemed to be wearing out his skill during the Playoffs for the past two years. Let’s move him.
I’m less worried about the brawling and more worried about his commitment to teams. Remember when he thought he’d take some time off to promote his rap album? There’s something not right about him.
Prince is a better defender than Artest. As far as Pierce and LeBron, we held them to 18 and 19 ppg respectively this year (compared to 22 and 25 for SAC). Prince is NOT the problem with our defense. Add to this the fact that Ron has averaged 57 games per year, which means we would have to average his performance with 25 games from his backup, and it is clear that trading Prince would be a very bad idea.
If we can get him for one of our young guys, he is worth the risk.
You know, everyone always talks about RonRon’s D (and it’s better, overall, than just about anyone’s in the league) but it’s his entire game that impresses me. He’ll drop 30 at any given time. Lethal combo.
As far as 50 cents on the dollar…at 8 mil per, he’s already at 75 cents on the dollar. He’s worth 10-11 mil per. Nocioni anyone? Yuck. Sure, he’s had his indiscretions, but who hasn’t? If it weren’t for the craziest event in NBA (sports) history, he wouldn’t be considered “crazy” and he’d be making damn near max money.
I’d love him on the team. Just because when most people hear the name “Artest” their minds automatically revert to the split-second decision a human (yeah, he’s only human) made in the heat of the moment. Take that away and he’s a somewhat average player in the NBA as far as bad decision-making goes. Trust me; he feels bad. He’s only making 8 mil per for a reason, and the reason is stated above. He won’t do it again.
Anyway, this is my first post. Hello.
___
Oh, and if we don’t get him, forget I mentioned any of this.
The reason Prince’s defense has “suffered” the last couple years can be summed up in two words: Ben Wallace.
Just trade Maxiell for him and keep Prince.
flashlight: I’m not sure why the Brawl has much to do with a contract signed by Artest in 2002. That is what you’re saying, right? You’re saying that if not for the Brawl, he’d be making significantly more than he will/would because of The Brawl? If I misunderstood what you said, I apologize and this is all moot, but I don’t see how his role in The Brawl has anything to do with what he’s making now, unless you’re assuming that he would get paid more in the summer of 2008 if he had opted out and not been the impetus for The Brawl (which he’s said he wished he’d done in hindsight) than if had he just opted out and still been “the guy from The Brawl”. I don’t think GMs would put much stock in The Brawl in contract negotiations with him. Of course, I could be completely wrong and his supposed “volatility” may be a factor.
I agree that he’d have a good shot of snagging a multi-year $10-$11 million/per season deal had he opted out this summer, but I don’t think he’d be cashing in more than that this summer had the Brawl never happened. Otherwise, welcome to DBB, friend.
@E-Double:
“And please stop it with the use of the damn PER stat. When the hell did talking about pts, rebs, assts, steals, blocks, straight up get replaced by all this PER shit. This is my last warning before I got postal damnit. No more talk about trading Maximus. I’m warning you S.O.B.’s!!!!”
Like many others here, I use stats to help develop my opinions. That doesn’t mean I believe that stats are absolute, because the whole story about a player’s performance cannot be explained by stats. If it was, fans would watch box scores, not games, GMs would make trades based on game logs, not personalities.
That’s not to say, however, that statistics cannot help us understand the game, develop educated opinions and justify them with data. Stats are, after all, a mathematic expression of documented facts. They represent the in-game dunks, the blocks, the 3 pointers, the turnovers, the events of a game that result from the performance of a player and a team.
PER is an index of stats. John Hollinger has developed PER as a stat index to document positive performance in a range of stats, weighted by negative performance in the same. While it is not a perfect system, it provides a “birds eye view” of a players performance, as well as a unit of measurement to compare players.
There are many, many index stats like PER. Dberri has “wins produced”. 82games has its “roland rating”. Hollinger has “PER”.
If you were to use individual stats to describe a player’s performance, like his total number of rebounds per game, assist to turnover ratio, if these are acceptable, then so can PER be to a degree. If you’re looking for a means to quantify a player’s performance, an index stat like PER is widely acceptable. You can’t knock an index stat and then boast individual stats in the same breath. Well, you can, but it only reflects a misunderstanding for what PER and other index stats represent.
I love stats. I love games more. I love players more. I love personalities more. But there is a common, repeating issue on DBB– if a member here uses an index stat to help quantify his/her opinion, they’re quickly labeled as “out of touch” or “calculator hungry” or otherwise.
Point being, everyone from casual fans to die hard addicts to general managers use stats, individual or index. No index stat is infallible. But at the end of the day, they are useful means of communicating an opinion based on the real, human performance that these stats represent.
1) I love Artest’s basketball game. On both ends of the court. When the Pacers were “TheRealDeal”tm and scared the crap out of me on a moment to moment basis, he was the reason, not Jermaine “Leadfoot” O’Neil. He’s a comparable offensive talent to someone like Shawn Marion, but he’s got defensive game on par with what we’ve seen out of Tay. Thats a great combination
2) There’s absolutely no question in my mind after reviewing the past three ECF series that the Pistons need someone who both wants the ball when the chips are down AND can create his own shot to do it.
3) Ron Artest is not that player. He’s a great second option. But then again so is Sheed. And Rip Hamilton, and Chauncey Billups. Basically we have like 91 second options on the Pistons already right?
There was a time when I would have done anything to see Ron Artest in a Piston’s uniform, and even as late as last trade deadline I still would have embraced the idea… but that was when I thought he’d put the team over the top for a title. Now I realize he wouldn’t, so why bother?
PS, missed you guys. Life is different these days, the internet doesn’t love me very much anymore. Fwiw, I cried like a little girl when Sheed said it was over. I might NEVER recover from game 3 either.
I’m honestly not sure how I would react to a Tay for Artest trade. I can’t decide if it’s worth the risk. IMO I think Ron Ron raises the ceiling for our team next year. If you could pick one guy to D up Lebron and Pierce it would have to be Artest right? But as we all know Artest has his quirks while Tay is the consumate teammate. Tay is also the youngest of our core guys and is locked up at reasonable price for the next 3 years while Artest is in the last year of his contract. If he blows this year we clear his 9 Million + Sheed’s 13.5 Million (Plus Rip has the option to opt out as well I believe) plus we’d have Dyess in the last year of his contract, and a lot of good young talent still on their rookie contracts so there would be a lot of options through free agency and trades…but it’s definitely risky going that route, nothing is garaunteed to happen.
I’ve come to the conclusion that there’s too much risk to make this trade now. I believe there will be better options once the season gets going. There will be some good teams who won’t be doing as well as they thought they were whether it be due to injuries, depth of the Western Conference, or they just decide to suck for no particular reason like the Bulls last year.
However, if it’s the last minute of the February trade deadline and nothing else is available? Take the risk.
Holy Shit, PG4L, is that you? *throws a pound, cracks a beer for ya* Welcome back.
pg4l back from the dead! welcome back…
artest is a mess. this “opting out was a mistake” baloney is just another in a long, long line of off-the-court distractions that he brings into the locker room. we don’t need to be artest-level desperate.
One last thing. Health wise we all know Tay never misses a game while Artest has played 56, 70, and 56 games over the last 3 years…so another reason it’s a bit riskier to acquire him now. I’d rather see him play some relatively healthy bball for 2/3 of the season and trade for him then.
Would Artest look good in a Pistons uniform? Is he the same player that was a defensive player of the year candidate? I get this odd feeling that perhaps his best years are gone and we are viewing him with rose tinted glasses. I don’t like it because it isn’t what this team needs to get over the hump. If Joe gets him for nothing then I can embrace this idea, otherwise I like Tay just where he is. Josh Smith, T-Mac or nada.
Sign PG4L to the full MLE! Nice to see you again PG4L
Hahaha, thanks guys. It’s nice to feel so much love on a day as sad as today.
-PG4L, mourning the loss of the Shock’s season, Planette Pierson’s sanity and Josh Childress’s Fro…
I co-sign Mike Payne’s really long post.
Also, I think Tay is the ultimate glue guy. I’d really hate to see him go, and I don’t think his defense has been that big of a problem for us. I think it’s more of a lack of team D. There’s got to be some pride in not allowing guys like James and Pierce to go nuts. I say that fully recognizing that the NBA is a different game than when the Bad Boys played it. But it still wouldn’t kill us from using a really hard foul on those types of players every now and again.
If Tay were to go, I think it significantly changes our team. Who is going to take the toughest defensive assignment night in and night out without bitching or asking for any credit whatsoever? These kinds of things actually do matter.
Also, I think Artest is a top 10 talent when his head is screwed on straight. I’d be really worried about him doing something silly as hell if we were to get him. I wasn’t sitting too far away when he jacked Rip in the face in the 04 East Finals Game 6. That was unequivocally the turning point in that game, and I’m pretty sure nobody in the building sat from that point forward. Color me concerned about his ability to (a) fit in, and (b) not lose it at key moments.
“If you could pick one guy to D up Lebron and Pierce it would have to be Artest right? ”
I’d pick Prince. See above.
“And please stop it with the use of the damn PER stat. When the hell did talking about pts, rebs, assts, steals, blocks, straight up get replaced by all this PER shit.”
Since people started realizing that fantasy value is not the same as real value.
Each of the stats you name is, in part, a function of other stats. Points and assists are a function of pace. Turnovers are a function of both pace and how often a player has possession. And every integer stat is a function of playing time.
PER takes all of this into account. If one were to look solely at points, rebounds etc… One might conclude that Ron Artest is better than Manu Ginobili. Obviously, he is not.
As such, it makes for a handy shorthand. Rather than explaining why Stephen Jackson really isn’t all that good in spite of the fact that he averages 20 ppg, I can point to his utterly average PER.
It is often correct to say that the PER does not tell the whole story about a player. If you believe that this is true, simply point out the disconnect as it pertains to that player.
If you believe the metric is flawed, it would be good to point out a player whose value either exceeds or falls short of his PER.
Okay, I looked at some of my friend’s NBA archives from this season. The Kings’ defense was pretty much off non-existent all year, and Artest wasn’t immune to the malaise, since at times he was working much harder on offense than defense. There were very few instances where he was on full-on cruise mode, but he wasn’t going balls to the wall every time he was on the floor. Even this season, he was solid on defense. Stronger SFs can’t post him up, and he’s a smart defender. As noted before, he seemed to have issues defending speedier players.
Here’s how he fared against some of the premier scorers in the league. Head to heads don’t always tell you everything, and Artest may not have guarded these guys the entire games, but I do know that he was placed on James and Pierce almost all of the time. Take these for what they’re worth.
LeBron
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=artesro01&p2=jamesle01
Pierce
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=artesro01&p2=piercpa01
Kobe
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=artesro01&p2=bryanko01
Carmelo
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=artesro01&p2=anthoca01
Now, on offense, he’s really around the league average for shooting efficiency. But when he decides to drive, the guy is just a bitch to defend. He can bull through smaller guys, and there aren’t too many small forwards who can match him on power (some PFs can’t, either). The downside is that when he goes into takeover mode, he often chooses to take jumpers rather than drive. That has to be frustrating for Kings fans.
I think he has areas where he could clearly help the team, but the possibility for a meltdown increases a lot with him around.
OMG. PG4L…..welcome home Mama!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matt:
I agree 100% with your perspective on this subject.
He definitely wants out of Sacramento. I think his value will go down the closer it gets to October. If he is still with the Kings come then I think that if Davidson approved a deal for him, we might be able to get him pretty cheap. After all the Lakers got Gasol for practically nothing and the Clippers got Camby for less than nothing. LOL
Chauncey can always throw it to Tay’s 7-foot wingspan and let him initiate the offense and/or take the last second shot.
Swap Prince for Artest and I’m seeing one superior passer and 4 average passers in the Detroit starting lineup. I don’t care what other qualities the players bring, that strikes me as a bad mix.>>
Prince’s career average on assists is 2.8 per 36 minutes
Artest’s career average is 3.3 per 36 minutes.
Ok, we might be getting into the surreal world of piston’s fanhood where even the mere mention of someone coming to the team erases a multitude of sins and gets folks drinking the Kool Aid. And I’m cool with that. But RonRon? Come on? Anyone who compares the locker room risk of Sheed to Ron Artest is desperately seeking Tracey McGrady. Ron is FOR REAL crazy. Half of what got Sheed in trouble in Portland was his politics (i.e. he was a little too street for folks). Ron Artest is actually imbalanced. He actually crossed the line and started blindly attacking a crowd full of innocent people (minus one guy who through…a liquid!) And to say that he’s taken responsibility for his actions,
http://www.need4sheed.com/2006/08/keep-ron-away-from-children.html
http://www.pistonsforum.com/detroit-pistons-general-discussion/3815-ron-artest-tells-detroit-youth-he-has-learned-nothing.html
well…I lost a little respect for you on that one MW. That is either either pure denial or purely talking out of the side of your neck– i.e. not like you. I mean, talent wise, there’s a good case for a mentally stable Ron Artest. I’m open to an upgrade at the SF, if one is out there. But crazy Ron is beyond locker room poison.
A move would spice up the off season, no doubt. But let’s not get…well…crazy.
Statistically, Artest ranked among the 10 most overrated players in the NBA last season. http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/who-is-the-most-overrated-in-2007-08/
Meanwhile, Prince ranked among the top 15 at small forward. http://www.wagesofwins.com/15SF0708.html>
Depends on what stats you are looking at.
According to 82games.com Artest’s Roland Rating was +6.2 which was higher than any of our guys except for Billups
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708SAC.HTM
If you look at Holligner’s PER (Player Efficiency Rating) for SF Artest was 7th with a 18.89 rating
Prince on the other hand was 24th with a PER of behind such stars
like Ryan Gomes and Trevor Ariza.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=per&qual=true&pos=sf&seasonType=2&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dper%26qual%3dtrue%26pos%3dsf%26seasonType%3d2
If you go to 82games.com and look at Artest’s Roland Rating it was 6.2 which was higher than any Pistons player except for Billups
In Hollinger’s PER of SF Artest was ranked 7th and Prince 24th behind such stars as Ryan Gomes and Tevor Ariza.
I would trade Sheed and Maxiell for Artist, S. Williams and a non-protected 1st round pick in 2009 above #3 and 100% unprotected in 2010.
Who is this “PistonsGirl4Life” you all speak of?
Nah, just kidding. Welcome back, PG4L.
And I’m not down with Artest. He’s got skills, but I don’t think bringing him in at the expense of (possibly) Tay will put us over the top.
Mike - Straight assist numbers aren’t a great indicator when taken out of context of pace and turnovers. Here are a few comparisons from last year, the most relevant for next year [from 82games.com]:
Assists/48 minutes - Artest 4.4, Prince 4.8
Assist/Bad Pass - Artest 4.0, Prince 5.5
If you factor in pace Artest’s assist numbers look worse.
Last year Artest played 1193 fewer minutes than Prince and still had more turnovers. Prince didn’t have a single 24 second violation or 5 second violation on an inbounds play all season and Artest had 6. It’s an understatement to say Prince is a heady player. Tay’s ‘hands rating’ last year was better than either Gilbert Arenas or Tony Parker and they are All-Star PGs. Artest is NOT a better passer or ballhandler than Prince.
Skill-wise, Artest would be a great addition, but the guy has proven to be utterly unreliable and seems to see himself as the no. 1 option on a team. Not in this life.
I bet he’d fit in just fine. Look at the shitty teams he’s been a part of. I think he’s getting long in the tooth to consider himself number 1, especially on this Piston team. He wants to win so bad he’d defer. I doubt Curry would hesitate for a second to pull rank on his ass. I would love to see that fool join Detroit. It’s Bizarro. He defends and we need defense again.
Also, Artest pouts when he doesn’t get the ball and has a tendency to freelance on offense.
It is worth noting that Artest is a very strong offensive player. But to put his skills in perspective (and with apologies to E-Double)…
Prince had a PER of 15.6
Artest had a PER of 18.9
Let’s be generous and say we continue to have decent luck with whatever backup SF we stick in there (this assumes we do not pick up Devean George, obviously). That gives us a PER of 13 at the backup.
Since Artest averages 1/3rd of the season out, that gives us an average PER of 16.9 from the position. I don’t think that is enough of a difference to make up for the intangibles.
Ron Artest is the Mike Tyson of the NBA, one minute introspective and misunderstood/sympathetic if not intelligent, the next he is threatening to eat babies or brawl with fans. Artest is unstable and cannot be relied on. Basketball aside can you imagine Bill Davidson sanctioning such a deal? He jettisoned Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown b/c of personal differences, I don’t think he’d be very receptive to having a loose cannon playing for his team or making assinine comments to the media. The man has serious issues, not minor idiosyncracies, not the type of problems that can be solved by being around a good group of guys (like Rasheed in his early days in Detroit).
“I enjoy watching Tayshaun Prince as much as anyone, but would Artest ever let LeBron James score 25 straight?”
Probably. A determined LeBron James, with the quickness and first step that he has, would be able to blow by the 29-year-old oft-injured Artest in a crucial game. Nearly all of those 25 were either uncontested layups or 3-point-plays from help defense that came too late. No one in the league can guard LeBron James without a double team or rotating help-side defense in the fourth quarter of a crucial game. We were out to prove just that last year.
“Would he allow Paul Pierce to slice and dice the defense?”
What? Pierce averaged 19.7 points in the series. His season average was 19.6. He shot 3% better from the field than in the regular season, yes, but when you hold a star to his average isn’t that a job well done, especially in the post-season? I always thought that was sort of the goal, to hold a star capable of scoring 40, 50 even, to his average. Shouldn’t we be looking at the fact that Perkins scored 3.5 points more a game than his season average? Or that Garnett upped his game by 4 points/game? Both post-players, hmm. I don’t believe Prince guarded either one of them.
I guess I’m a little baffled by the fact that everyone so quickly buys into the thinking that Artest is a better defender than Prince. LeBron James averaged, a meager for him, 19.3 against the Pistons, a team that rarely double teams and since Ben left doesn’t pose an inside defensive threat. (Yes, we average close to the same amounts of blocks/game, but things have changed, that’s irrefutable). Pierce only averaged 15 against us during the regular season. Prince’s defense on both James and Pierce represents their second lowest mark against any team last season.
Prince is also the only one of our starters with any future potential. His game still could substantially improve. Haven’t we seen the best of Artest? Wasn’t his best five years ago when he guided his team to losing to us in the Conference Finals?
I guess I remain completely unconvinced that Prince makes any sense to be shipped away at a low cost, other than the fact that he has value that none of our other starters does. Why most people seem to be convinced that all that we need was a new SF, or a backup SF, doesn’t make any sense. Artest is tough, yes, and… I guess it would get us closer to becoming the next Portland Trailblazer, which would be sort of cool.
(1) There are a lots of Pistons fans believe its time to move Billups out of starting lineup because Stuckey is better than him. Well, I don’t think so because Stuckey’s impressive performances in both regular season and playoff this year means Pistons Finally Find the 100% Reliable Backup For Mr. Big Shot, but that doesn’t mean Stuck is ready to replace Chauncey in his 2nd year. I think eveyone needs to wait to see what happen to Rodney in his 2nd year, especially if he can stay healthy all season long, then make the judgement to see how domanated he can be in the near future.
(2) Don’t trust 100% when a person saying a lots of things with angry/mad attitude because that person can say anything crazy without thinking too much at that moment. From what I am reading from most pistons related web pages, I realize some pistons fans are disappointed that there is no big trade in any kind to involved (only rumors) with pistons these days. I think Joe was really mad at his team when he was talking “Besides Stuck, anyone is tradable” to media back to in the beginning of June. But I don’t think he will really trade his starter to somewhere else this year. I always think Detroit Pistons’ 6 straight ECF apparences like a college studnet who want to get 4.0 GPA from his/her current 3.7 GPA. You know, the 3.7 GPA student doesn’t need to deny what he/she has already done. All he/she needs is some suggestions from his/her teachers, classmates, friends and family, etc in order to be the straight A students at school. Just put that “theory” to Pistons, I believe all Pistons need is the new directions from the new coach, not the superstar player(s) coming to the team. You do not totally deny the 6 straight ECF apparences becuase that tells you what level this team is since the past couple years. Moreover, I believe Deeetroit Basketballl will stay the same no matter what NBA superstar they will get in the future if that happen. What I am saying is Pistons basketball = team basketball= share the ball= everyone is equally important in the team. Are you guys sure those NBA stars will fit Pistons’ System? I doubt it. Celtics were the bottom team in Eastern Conference for past couple years and thats why their GM decide to make big moves like this year. However, Pistons don’t need famous superstar and they can still be in ECF for 6 straight years.. People, are you sure Pistons need superstars in their team? Just think it one more time ok.
Let me bring back some reality here. Artest is vastly overrated offensively and defensively. Offensively, he is a black hole, he will waste 10-15 seconds off the shot clock backing someone down low and then jack up a wild shot. And he hits an occassional 3 so basically we’re getting a shorter poor man’s Sheed. Prince>Artest.
Now for his defense, lets look at how he fared against our two biggest sf rivals in the east, Pierce and Lebron. Last year Sac played Boston twice and Pierce scored 26 and 16 on Artest. Artest on the other hand went 11 for 34 in those two games. When Lebron played Artest last year, James went on to score 26 on RonRon. So in the end, I doubt there would be a huge upgrade of defense with Artest against big time East sf.
Pierce shot 50% on the series, with a TS% higher than his regular season averages. And Prince wasn’t doing much on the other end to give Pierce anything worth worrying about. He was fantastic in the other series this year and killed Iguodala, but he struggled against Pierce and didn’t provide much resistance to LeBron last year. He is great against most perimeter players, but he doesn’t play well against players like those two.
Artest really worked harder on offense than defense this year, and no one else on the Kings even posed a semi-credible defensive threat. Needless to say, the team’s defense was pretty woeful. I’m still not convinced that he’s a lockdown guy like he was in his Pacer years, but even with a team that only played on side of the floor, he was still a capable defender. I’m not convinced this is a move that really helps the team over the hump, though.
“Prince is also the only one of our starters with any future potential. His game still could substantially improve. Haven’t we seen the best of Artest?”
They’re both 28 years old — why does Tay inherently have more unrealized potential?
mw- i think people believe they haven’t seen the best of tay because he’s never been a 1st option or a 2nd option and has barely been a 3rd option most of the time. artest played 25 less games and still had more FG attempts than tay. to me it’s not an age question. it’s an opportunity question. it would be interesting to see what would happen if tay got rip’s looks at the basket.
I agree with the person who said Tay is a glue-guy, too, which is pretty intangible. It seems like the guys in the front office like him (there have been articles written comparing him to Dumars with his quiet poise and leadership) and he’s probably a good guy to have around in the locker room because his calmness probably helps others relax. I’m just basing this off my own experience in the work place, where certain employees are loose cannons and can get everyone riled up (Sheed?) while others are the voice of reason and can bring folks back down (Tay?).
I wouldn’t mind this trade just to mix stuff up. The problem is, this and every other trade rumor is a load!
Prince held LeBron James to 42% and twelve points under his average over the course of their meetings this season. That seems like resistance to me.
The fact that Paul Pierce scored his average and shot 50% is not why we lost to Boston. Artest would not have kept Pierce to much less than 19, if that. Pointing out the fact that Artest had a weak Sac defense to play with doesn’t really apply, as in the Boston series you can only double one of the three, so he would be called to play him man defense the majority of the time. It’s not like McDyess is that much more feared than Brad Miller, as sad of a fact as that is.
Artest is a better offensive player? Well, Prince shoots the ball at 46%, Artest 43%. Prince is also better from 3, turns the ball over half as much, and fouls less than half as much as Artest. If Prince had five to six more shots a game, he would easily average the 16 that Artest has over his career.
The only upgrade is in weight. Artest does weigh more. Way to go Ron Artest!
Prince doesn’t inherently have more potential. He seems to have more potential because typically players grow season to season and then peak. Perhaps, Prince already has, as over the last few seasons the improvements have been slight, and there have been some decreasing numbers as well. But when you look at Artest there has been a steady decline in his game and his consistency. Artest could bounce back, and this could be a lull as opposed to him already peaking, but when you look at his injuries, his stats and his experience, and most importantly his opportunities as compared to Prince - it seems that there is more potential with Prince. In Sac he was the #1 or #2 guy. Even in Indiana, with Reggie Miller, he was either the biggest or second biggest threat to opposing teams, and yet him and Prince compare pretty evenly. So, because Prince has played the role of the fourth option and hasn’t been given that larger role, or really truly ever been asked to, that’s why I think he has the larger amount of potential - he hasn’t been fully tested well as Artest has.
I’ve explained above (as have others) all the risks that come with Artest but I believe he would be a better matchup against Pierce and Lebron…two strong SF’s that give Tay a little trouble in the playoffs.
Some people have pointed out that Lebron & Pierce averaged more points against Ron Ron then Tay last year, but there are some problems with those numbers;
1) Very small sample size
2) Pace of play…the Pistons played the slowest pace in the league while the Kings played the 8th fastest
3) Defensive Efficiency - Sacramento was 25th while Detroit was 4th. NBA games aren’t just one on one matchups, you need good team defense to hold down great players. This is Sacramento’s group of big men who are responsible for showing and recovering on pick and rolls and defending the paint: Brad Miller, Mikki Moore, Shelden Williams, Kenny Thomas. I feel pretty confident in saying our group of big men would provide much more help.
I like the fact that Artest can be physical with them over a 7 game series. Tay can’t post up against Lebron or Pierce because they are too strong for him. If he can’t post up, his offensive game truly suffers and he’s not making those guys work on defense, which allows them to focus more on the offensive end. That’s not going to change.
I’m on the fence about making a trade for Artest, but if we were playing Boston in a series tomorrow I’d want him over Tay.
“1) Very small sample size”
Is there any evidence that Artest has been exceedingly effective in stopping twos and threes? A small sample size is better than no sample size.
“2) Pace of play…the Pistons played the slowest pace in the league while the Kings played the 8th fastest”
That isn’t enough to explain away the difference.
“3) Defensive Efficiency - Sacramento was 25th while Detroit was 4th. ”
And why do you suppose such a discrepancy exists? Sheed and Chauncey are also good defenders, but Prince is the best defender at his position.
My sense of the Pistons getting Artest at this point is that if it happens it won’t happen until just before the trade deadline.
Joe D., MC and his coaching staff are very high on Sharpe and his potential.
The main question with him is how quickly he can get up to speed on the defensive end. There is no doubt that he has the quickness and length to be a good scorer and defender at the #3.
While Artest is interesting and certainly interesting to discuss, at this point I would prefer to start the year with our current 12 players that we have signed plus Lindsey and Ratliff.
If Plaisted or Washington can earn a contract in October all the much better otherwise starting with these 14 works for me.
Interesting article on some internal Laker strife:
http://hoopshype.com/articles/brown_lazenby.htm
It’s convenient to ignore Prince’s larger body of work against LeBron, like his showing in the playoffs last year. And one of those games LeBron played against Prince this year was one where he scored 15 in 19 minutes (on pace for ~30 points), but left because he got injured. Otherwise, he had one above average game and one awful game against us. Last year in the playoffs, LeBron played poorly the first two games, but in the next three pivotal games, he pretty much got whatever he wanted, and Prince was essentially a no-show on the other side of the floor.
Pierce got his season average using fewer possessions, so he was more efficient than usual. He didn’t really go off like he did against the Lakers, but he was “held” to his averages using fewer possessions (more efficient, in other words), and that’s not something to be proud of when you’re talking about a designated defensive stopper. And holding someone to their season average in the playoffs isn’t really something to write home about anyway, since most players see a dip in their playoff scoring averages.
Prince is a great defender, but I think it’s clear that he has more trouble with those two guys than anyone else, defensively and offensively. And it’s not like that’s insignificant since we’ve run into them the last two years, and it’s likely that we’ll have to face them again soon. I don’t know if Artest is the answer, but it’s still an issue the team should look to address.
Kevin S…IMO when you factor in the 2 game sample size against Lebron and Pierce, along with the pace of play difference, as well as the fact that Detroit has a far superior team defense around Tay compared to the Kings team defense around Artest it’s hard to put a lot of weight towards the ppg those guys scored against Detroit and Sacramento last regular season.
We can endlessly argue the merits of Tay’s and Artest’s respective careers.
Off the court- no contest. Tay wins
Defense- Artest won defensive player of the year (NBA politics aside, coaches & media watch more matchups than I ever will. Artest wins (I dont like it but I believe it. sidenote: I love me some taytay playoff game saving blocks)
I’m more interested in the conversations about who is/could be the better offensive weapon. I like the idea that tay could be more of an offensive threat if he were promoted to 1st or 2nd option, but I wonder why hasn’t gotten that chance on a team that needs a backcourt player who can breakdown defenses and get to the basket? I think its outside of his limitations. He can backdown smaller weaker defenders for the baby hook. He jab steps bigger slower defenders for the 20 footer, and he hits the open 3. Jim made a good point about Tay’s reliance on but inability to back down beefier wingers. With out that move, he’s not a go to scorer and doesn’t command a double team. Playoff caliber SF’s, most recently, pierce & lebron (back in 2004 it was Jefferson) take that away from him and he disappears. Also, VS those guys, his perimiter game is limited to the open 3. His shot mechanics aren’t conducive to being an off the dribble jump shooter. Tay plays within himself and is one of the better teammates to play with in the NBA, but he’s no go to scorer.
The last Artest memories I have that don’t involve me shaking my and laughing out loud are back in the 2004 playoffs with Indiana. It was an ugly defensive series where the teams broke 80 just 3 times. He was the 1st or 2nd option the whole series. (A series we could have lost if not for a timely block by Tay. Ahh, memories) I think he’d be a slight upgrade offensively. Artest.
Now whats joes cell?
Jim,
I don’t put a lot of weight it in either. But there is plenty of sample size available to suggest that Ron Artest might not even be able to play against LeBron or Pierce.
If we had run into a Tim Duncan type of player for the last several years, I could see some sort of personnel management designed to get around him. I have never heard of trading away a core member of a team just to keep pace with the second best player on a team, or the best player on the fifth best team in the conference.
Oh, yeah. Props to Quick Darshans for the conspiracy theory that David Stern wouldn’t allow a team with Sheed and Artest to beat an NBA poster child (lebron, KG, D-wade)
With the roster as currently constructed I find it interesting that most people seem to think that backup SF is the greatest area of need. Most of the posts that don’t involve trades are about the Josh Childresses and CJ Mileses of the world.
I would argue that the greatest area of need is a future post presence for when Sheed and Dyess are gone.
With Chauncey, Rip, Tay, Stuckey and Afflalo, I think the 1-3 positions are good for many years (especially if Sharpe is the real deal).
I like Maxiell, Amir and Samb but only Maxiell has shown that he can be a consistent scorer. All of them have shown that they are or will be capable of rotation minutes. But, not one of them is a slam dunk starter yet.
Maxiell has to prove he can handle stater’s minutes as an undersized PF. Amir likewise has to show he can handle the banging as a slim PF. And Samb and Plaisted need to stay in the oven a little longer.
To me, this is a greater concern than finding someone to backup/replace Tayshaun.
As for potential, what has Prince shown that warrants consideration as a second option? He has a decent post game that works on a limited set of players. He’s also a decent enough ballhandler to get past some guys, but that’s something he doesn’t do often because he’s so risk-averse. Overall, he’s not that efficient a scorer. He’s 28, and he’s never exceeded his 04-05 production. That was where he was at his most efficient, and when he broke out that year, I had faith that he would grow further, but he’s pretty much stayed at the same level. That’s not bad, mind you, since he’s still one of the better small forwards out there offensively. But these are essentially Prince’s prime years, and it’s hard to expect big strides to stardom from here.
Whoever said he could improve was obviously right. He’s actually a pretty mediocre jumpshooter. He’s okay from 3 point range, but he doesn’t take them with much frequency, and he’s not really a lights out guy. His in between game is also pretty bad, and he took more midrange jumpers than he usual last season, and those aren’t great shots for him. If he can improve accuracy on those shots, though, that would make him a more complete inside-out player, and it opens things up for the team offensively.
And if Artest is the solution, it’s not like the team would only be trading Prince just to deal with LeBron and Pierce. Artest is a more dangerous offensive player, a better rebounder, and he is still a good defensive player, although he wasn’t as good as he used to be as a Pacer. The issue is whether it’s worth sacrificing a great glue guy for someone who might lose his head or fail to recognize stronger offensive threats on the team.
DAMN RIGHT.
FREE RICK MAHORN.
LESLIE IS A CLOWN, AND THE WNBA AND THE NBA GO HAND IN HAND INTO FLAMES.
If you got Artest, you would upgrade the 3. Artest > Prince, how it is. Artest, however, is only worth Prince and not much else. Delusions of Kings getting 3-4 of our starters and sending us all their crap are just what they are . . . biased, selfish, far from equal value. Detroit isn’t in the position of needing to start over and rebuild. That’s the big joke from Dumars’s rants after the C’s series . . . everyone assumed Joe Dumars as Mad As Hell, Not Gonna Take It Anymore, which was right. Then they applied the thought, and suddenly it meant Mad As Hell, FIRE SALE!!!!!!!1
There could have been zero changes, and Detroit woulda done the same thing next year. You think the Suns have fallen apart at any time during their almost famous runs? Well, up until they made a drastic change and brought Fat and Old Shaq to the fold. Marion for Shaq was ridiculous. Shaq isn’t worth Nazr Mohammed. They’re screwed.
It may be a rigged league, but for Detroit’s sporting posterity, let us not wish to blow up this team and devolve the level of quality to that of a Mateen Cleaves charity event.
QD…You raise some very valid points. The front court has a chance to be the topic of conversation next summer here on DBB. I think we need to see the development of Amir, Max and even Samb next year to get a better idea of what they can bring to the table. As much as Sheed frustrates me sometimes, there is no denying he brings some unique skills to our big guys that will need to be replaced once he leaves.
This is sort of piggybacking QD’s point, but if I’m wanting to risk me some crazy, why not David Harrison? He’s big, physical, and agressive. He’d come cheap. He’s got skills on both ends of the court. He hasn’t gotten on the court enough for us to really be able to know if he could develop into someone who could play a vital role for us at center, but it seems a pretty low risk-decent reward sort of move especially considering how overpaid legit seven-footers still are (see: Diop, Desagna).
Good player, low price. Good Defender. We get another player also. Pull the trigger.
we need a C more than a SF, leave TAY alone!!! I´ll be death before I see Ron Ron on a Pistons jersey.
Shinons: My first thought was David Harrison is a complete scrub. My second thought was, this must be because you lived in Bloomington at some point in the last five years and perhaps have a mild tendency to be Indiana-centric (I know I have it myself a lot of the time). My third thought was, wait a minute first two thoughts, this guy couldn’t possibly produce much less than Primoz Brezec, and for what would probably be just more than half of Brezec’s already paltry price from last season, where’s the risk here? Worst that happens is David Harrison continues to fail drug tests, get in brawls, and becomes the next in a long list of revolving-door 15th men. Best that happens is, he puts people on their asses in the paint and blocks shots in limited minutes. I believe this would make a big (positive) difference on our team’s dynamic without actually asking anything out of Harrison that he’s not capable of doing. I say bravo to you sir and a job well done. Save a spot for me on that bandwagon. I mean come on Joe, at least bring him in for a workout or dinner or something.
I think if Harrison had value, he would have gotten more minutes with O’Neal constantly hurt.
The Pacers see Hibbert as a better option. That should say something.
I’m not sure there are any free agents that address the glaring need I talked about.
I think Kwame Brown is a great defensive player but he’s useless on offense.
Are there any good Euro big men (an oxymoron, I know) that some team has the rights to? Marc Gasol?
David Harrison fouls more frequently than Amir, and he fouls on the offensive end. He wouldn’t crack our rotation. To the extent we have a problem with our frontcourt, there isn’t anyone in free agency who is going to solve it.
Wow, LB can apparently talk himself into anything. This is the first time I’ve ever heard of a David Harrison bandwagon. He is a legitimately unique player in that he can foul out in seven minutes and he’s great at fudging rotations to go for a block. He’s also a walking turnover.
Hey look! Oklahoma City has a bunch of crappy centers, and most of them probably don’t even have homes! Let’s grab one.
Come on. The Pistons need front court help, but they’re not so desperate as to start looking into the most marginal of players.
QD: I think Harrison was actually bounced out of the rotation by JO at the end of the season when JO came back. When JO came back, Harrison had been playing serviceable minutes but he got inactivated immediately. If I had Foster, Murphy and JO at my disposal, I wouldn’t waste my time w/Harrison either. The Pistons don’t have guys like that at their disposal though.
Also, being a member of The Brawl-crew and then getting a five-game suspension in January for failing a drug test all but killed Harrison’s standing with the very public crusade to remove thugs from the squad taken on by the Pacers brass. I figure that’s the largest reason why the Pacers don’t wont pursue Harrison and are simultaneously destroying Shawne Williams in the media right now.
Kevin S.: While I totally understand that Harrison’s foul rate is about 40% greater than Amir’s in comparable minutes, I don’t see why that’s a big detractor for an end of the rotation bruiser. He’d be coming on the cheap, and his sole purpose would be to inject physicality in the paint. I’d love to see Harrison (or a comparably sized player) in a Pistons uniform go face-to-face with Perkins et al. No one is scared to take it into the paint against us anymore. In fact, teams love to do so with Ben gone. It’s just my opinion, but I don’t think that you’re going to win a title or even a conference championship if you allow more points in the paint than you score. If we win the points in the paint battle, any opponent is gonna have a helluva time beating us. I’m not saying Harrison is the answer to winning that battle, but I echo every word of QD’s concerns about plugging the paint with someone who has a passion for smashin’ (I think pre-requisites are being 6′11 and weighing at least 250).
If Harrison patrolled the paint for us for like 10-15 minutes per game, that would essentially be his only job and I think he’d do it well. I think it would help allow us to continue to dictate the game’s pace and not let things get out of hand. I think Harrison has the passion for smashin’ and that we should be taking a real hard look at guys like Kwame Brown and Davis Harrison if they’re going come on the cheap (ie: < half of the MLE). Hell, I’m sure Joe is already “taking a look” at the very least. Joe’s probably just biding his time. As far as I know, with the official addition of Sharpe and Bynum, we only have 12 plays under contract currently. That means Joe has three spots left to hand out, presumably between: Theo, Herrmann, Lindsey, potential backup SF not currently on our roster and potential backup C not currently on our roster. I have no idea which 3 are going to win that battle, but I can’t wait to find out.
Well– Ellis is staying Golden State. I hope the options for Biedrins remain open…
The Warriors also matched for Azubuike, which is $9 for three years. With Turiaf, Marcus Williams, Kelenna, Ellis, and Maggette, and depending on how their contracts are structured, they are probably right around the cap. That’s going to make Biedrins pretty difficult to resign. I’m not sure what Mullen is doing. I would have forgone all the minor moves (the first three in the list above) and paid Maggette more in the range of $7-8 million a year (more than anyone else had) in an effort to get Biedrins locked up. Unless they’re willing to take a big luxury tax hit, I’d say he’s gone.
Not feeling the Harrison love, by the way.
Er, Kelenna’s contract is $9 million, obviously. But man, with all those 9 dollar contracts floating around, no wonder players are fleeing for Europe.
I think we should try and make a move for Joel Pryzbilla. Probably becoming redundant in Portland, and a very solid rebounder and shot blocker, the kind of big we could use. Just a thought.
David Harrison? Really? Amir can’t get 10-15 minutes, where on Earth is Harrison getting them?
Kwame Brown? Seriously? I think it’s sound policy to not employ a player who was the wrong end of the most lopsided trade in history.
Artest for Tayshaun is a lateral move. Tay’s defense is not the problem. When Pierce went off, WE WON. At some point you have to understand that Paul Pierce and LeBron James ARE TOP 5 PLAYERS IN THE NBA AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO DEFEND THEM IN A SATISFACTORY MANNER NO MATTER WHO PLAYS THE 3. We did not lose to Cleveland in 07 because of LeBron, we lost because Drew Gooden was actually something other than useless and Boobie Gibson introduced himself to the world. We did not lose to Boston in 08 because Tay couldn’t defend Pierce.
People around here have lost their friggen minds.
Sorry, let me be clear about Harrison. It would be one of the worst ideas ever. It’s probably a worse idea than Kwame Brown.
I cannot believe that there’s a post titled “Would the Pistons actually trade for Ron Artest?” and we’re talking about bringing him AND David Harrison? Yeah, let’s team them with Rasheed and see which one of the 3 can be the first to cause me to punch a hole in my wall.
What do Harrison and Brown bring that Theo Ratliff does not? I’ve not seen a sufficient answer to that question yet. Theo’s a big dude. He might not be 250, but he can D up in the post. I thought he was actually pretty good in his limited amount of minutes.
Oh, and about Tay. I think the natural reaction is for people to look at what happened and go, “oh, well LeBron plays for the Cavs and they beat us in 07, and Pierce plays for the Celtics and they beat us in 08, and Prince had to defend each guy, so he must be to blame.” This is a lazy thought process. I defy you to name me one player in the NBA who has effectively guarded LeBron James. How about Paul Pierce? Those guys don’t exactly exist right now. Nobody in the league is drawing that assignment for 35 minutes a night in a 7 game series and doing a good job. Do I have to remind everybody that we beat Boston on a night where their Big 3 went for 75 combined points and did just about everything you could possibly ask them to do? We won that game because we locked everybody else down and made those 3 guys beat us. Tayshaun Prince’s defense is not the problem. TEAM DEFENSE IS THE PROBLEM. I do not see how you improve our team defense when you remove our best individual defender from the equation.
Seriously, people around here are losing their f-ing minds.
“While I totally understand that Harrison’s foul rate is about 40% greater than Amir’s in comparable minutes, I don’t see why that’s a big detractor for an end of the rotation bruiser.”
First off, Amir is at the end of the rotation. He would be taking minutes away from a much better player. Second, offensive fouls piss away points. We would lose points while he was on the court. Harrison’s version of bruising is known as a foul in the NBA.
As a rebounder, he is akin to Spellcheck and Stuckey, so I don’t see why you would want to see him against Perkins.
“It’s just my opinion, but I don’t think that you’re going to win a title or even a conference championship if you allow more points in the paint than you score.”
Did we score more points in the paint than we allowed against the Lakers when we won the championship? Maybe we did, but I would be awfully surprised. Where does this opinion come from?
“What do Harrison and Brown bring that Theo Ratliff does not?”
Incompetence?
@Other Matt, Kevin S.:
“What do Harrison and Brown bring that Theo Ratliff does not?”
Precisely. I don’t see how Harrison is an improvement over Ratliff.
Other Matt, you raise some good points, but I don’t know. Sure, Tayshaun Prince held Pierce, one of the best scorers in the league, to under 20 points a game, but I bet if we traded him for Ron Artest, when we faced Boston again Pierce wouldn’t score a single basket. He’d be so scared of Artest he would never show his face in the NBA. He’d quit for sure. He’d quit and no one would ever hear from him again. He’d long for the days when he had that skinny old Tayshaun Prince fella guarding him. Oh, those were the days. Torching old Prince night in and night out for, brace yourselves, nearly 20 points a game. Not just any old 20, but the most important 20 points of the game. Scratch that. The only 20 points that even mattered. OK, sure he didn’t shoot the highest percentage of the starters, not even second highest, or even score the most points. And pay no attention to the fat guy on Pierce’s team who we allow to get offensive rebounds and uncontested shots over and over. He doesn’t matter. Forget the game when he only scored 11. That’s all he felt like scoring. Obviously. And forget the 6 or so at the FT line a game, and the couple baskets a night when Rip switched on him or a bench player was on him, those don’t matter. It’s those few baskets when ol’ Tayshaun Prince couldn’t stop him, those were the baskets that beat us. Yes, I’ve got to think that Artest would have made all the difference. Hey, while we’re at it maybe we should pick up David Harrison - I hear that Kevin Garnett fella might have scored a few buckets, don’t quote me, all I can remember is Paul Pierce.
Other Matt: Kendrick Perkins was the starting center on the NBA champion this year. Fabricio Oberto was the starting center on the NBA champion the year before that. Nazr Mohammed was there for San Antonio in 2005. It’s not so much that we’ve lost our mind, it’s that the NBA today is simply devoid of offensively-skilled centers on NBA Champions (especially now that Shaq’s era is over). The 2000s sport four titles for Shaq, four titles for teams with centers who offer little more on offense than put-backs but are willing to hang in the paint all game. Before that, the center on champions gave you more than 5 or 6 points per game and often had go-to moves (usually at least a hook for starters) away from the hoop. David Robinson, Moses Malone, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Hakeem Olajuwon aren’t walking through that door. Hell, James Edwards isn’t even walking through that door.
Point being, today’s NBA team doesn’t NEED to have a center with any real offensive firepower to get the title, it just needs a guy who can occupy space in the paint. I just would like to see somebody wearing a Detroit Pistons jersey and playing the position of center to happily occupy some space in the paint. I’m worried that I’m going to have to wait until Rasheed’s contract ends to see that day.
Juicebox, in your very sarcastic post, I think you might have stumbled on to a good point. Maybe Tay doesn’t struggle to defend bigger 3s, but instead struggles to score against bigger 3s. I’m not going to look up the stats at 2 am, but maybe there’s some truth to that theory.
Also, while I’m addressing your obviously sarcastic post in a serious manner, how does Artest fit in with us offensively? I don’t get it. We lose a point-forward who’s capable of running our offense for a few minutes per night in exchange for someone who’s basically the same defensively and cannot replicate what Tay gives us offensively. I have a hunch that Prince’s eFG% is probably much better than Artest’s. Again, it’s 2 am, I’m not looking it up.
Sasha Vujacic may be available at an affordable price. The Lakers are apparently lowballing him and no one else seems to be interested.