… either a) think alike; or b) regurgitate DBB.
[Update: … or c) sometimes jump the gun. Of all the times I’ve suspected my ideas being appropriated by other writers and media outlets, this was a poor example to use to air my frustration.
For one, the subject matter is hardly original — as has been pointed out in the comments, these ideas are already “out there in the vapor.” But most importantly, this specific writer deserved the benefit of the doubt, or at least more professional courtesy. As my linking history shows, I’ve long appreciated his writing and have not suspected “regurgitation” in the past.]
Trouble is, the fact that the Pistons literally don’t have a single “bad contract” on their roster can make it difficult to swing trades — when every player is either a bargain or making market value, it’s impossible to throw another body into a deal just to make the salaries work without getting ripped off.
Here’s a hypothetical example (that’s unrealistic but illustrates my point): say the Pistons and Rockets agreed to swap Rasheed Wallace for Tracy McGrady ($21 million) straight-up. The Rockets know Detroit will have to send back another body or two to make the deal work but don’t really care who it is. Without an expendable $4 million salary to throw-in, Detroit would have to package some of their young bargains simply to make it work. I’d swap Rasheed for McGrady straight up, but would I swap Rasheed, Maxiell and Stuckey for McGrady? No chance. Rasheed and Brown? Now we’re talking.
Today Pistons.com’s Keith Langlois wrote:
Let’s take McGrady as an example. He’s due to make $21 million next year. The Pistons have to come pretty close to sending that much money to Houston in order for the trade to be in compliance. But because they don’t have anyone on the roster who’s overpaid, they’d have to trade $21 million worth of real value.
And I don’t care which combination of guys making that kind of money you want to group – Rasheed Wallace and Tayshaun Prince; Chauncey Billups, Antonio McDyess and Jason Maxiell; Rip Hamilton and Wallace – it would be a trade that would represent significant risk for the Pistons.
Just saying.
Oh, the lengths people are going to defend and rationalize Kwame Brown.
That’s just a little too close for comfort, Matt… If smart minds do think alike, smarter minds think first.
I regurgitate DBB at work without giving any credit, too.
I think what Matt and Keith are saying is very obvious and is one of the reasons that I have maintained that we won’t be making any trades unless something ridiculous in our favor falls into Joe D.’s lap.
Without taking this too seriously:
Is it a bad thing if Langolis is ripping DBB off? There’s a lot of great stuff here, including the conversation. Langolis has asked a lot of good questions and gotten answers to those good questions. He’s got access, and I don’t mind where he gets the ideas to ask his questions or write articles as long as he continues to do a good job at getting information that we all want.
That said, I hope he’s not ripping Matt Watson off. I like Langlois, he’s been a must read for me since high school when he was with the Oakland Press.
I think the post you made last week had alot of significant points and I woulnd’t blame anyone for borrowing your ideas (well, that is unless they take them with out crediting you).
While I know that the tone seems similar, and you have been ripped off by Detroit media in the past, Langlois doesn’t seem to be too far off message from any sincere stones fan. I think anyone that follows this team raises an eyebrow to the Cake in the Face signing…
It is worth noting however that you did throw the message out first, and provided some more thorough analysis. Also worth nothing that J-Gran best throw the other Kwame out right quick. Kwame KilP just makin Detroit less famous.
I had to use your example more than a couple times to explain to some Pistons fans that were cursing Joe’s name. But I also, credited you and your site.
If the Rockets were willing to take one member of our core for McGrady, we could find a few ways to get to 17 million. If his contract is so outrageous (and I agree that it is), that argues against trading for him, rather than for acquiring bad contracts to make it work.
I guess the Pistons now have “an expendable $4 million salary to throw-in.”
I saw fragments of the argument you made in your McGrady $21M post in the comments. It’s out there in the vapor. Anybody who has ever played with ESPN’s Trade Machine or RealGM’s Trade Machine knows that the only way Detroit gets established talent back is to trade established talent. All the players that Detroit can get in a “steal of a deal” are players that would never ever be traded. Knick fans can delude themselves that Jared Jeffries + Eddy Curry for Rasheed Wallace + Rodney Stuckey might happen but Piston fans can’t pretend Amir Johnson + Jason Maxiell for Greg Oden is going to happen because Oden isn’t on the market.
I’ve been pushing the McGrady deal for months and lots of smart people here at DBB said “but you are trading the whole backcourt!”. Well…yeah. It’s the only way to make the salaries match. I’d love to trade one starter plus two bench players but our bench players don’t make the kind of money that a Mike James or Bobby Jackson make for other teams.
So I don’t fault Keith Langlois for making a good point, I fault Pistons.com for not expanding their staff and giving you a high paying job.
Has anyone ever seen Matt Watson and Keith Langlois at the same time? I know I haven’t…
Wow, come on. From the quotes you post it seems possible but the context is different, you guys aren’t even saying the same thing. Keith’s point was that ironically the Pistons could use a contract like what Kwame Brown had last season whereas your post paints his current deal as a would-be bad contract for future deals. Completely different. 2yrs/8 mil is right around market value with a discount being that its the Pistons, thus the player option. If you’re going to throw lame plagiarism accusation out there the least you could do is reread the article and be sure.
Having no over-paid players to throw in in a trade is not a bad thing. It prevented us from getting McGrady, who is overpaid! So what!
I have had a number of email discussions with Langlois on various Pistons topics.
He doesn’t impress me as the type that would rip off material from a blog or from anyone else.
OT: McCosky gets some really good quotes from Kwame Brown on his signing:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080805/SPORTS0102/808050415/1004/SPORTS
If Kwame produces the way that he claims he can in the article, I think we’ll all be happy. Of course, Kwame detractors won’t believe it until they see it, and may not even be willing to believe it once they see it.
At the bottom of the article, McCosky says we’ll be at 13 players (not counting Lindsey) upon the re-signing of Walter Herrmann (apparently the one year/$2 million deal is currently unofficial). Um, I count 14 players: Sheed, Dice, Tay, Rip, Chaunce, Kwame, Max, Amir, Sharpe, Afflalo, Stuck, Bynum, Samb, Herrmann = 14, +Lindsey=15. Am I missing something (like, maybe Sharpe isn’t officially signed yet?) or did McCosky botch it? Just putting it out there, because who doesn’t love chumping McCosky?
I posted this in the other thread too… but applies here.
Kwame quotes in an mLive article today.
http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/sports-30/1217957343118720.xml&storylist=newsmichigan
“I’m in the best situation ever,” he said. “I’m in a situation where no one’s expecting nothing, so whatever I give is going to be a plus as long as I play hard and play smart.”
That use of a double negative is strange and somewhat open for some kind of joke. I personally am expecting SOMETHING from him. He was right about one thing though:
“I’m just happy to be a Detroit Piston. It just seems like a first-class organization.”
LB…You are right, I think McCoskey messed up.
Kwame is more well spoken then I imagined him to be. That doesn’t translate to anything on the court, but I do like the mindset he seems to have right now.
Dumars made an appearance in the ESPN chat today! Hollinger doesn’t sound too confident in the signing.
Joe Dumars (Detroit): John is Kwame the answer at the 5 and move Sheed back to the 4?
John Hollinger: (3:07 PM ET ) The only question Kwame answers is “How long can somebody be paid off potential before they actually have to do something?” With four years in Washington, plus a three-year deal from L.A. that just expired, plus two years from Detroit, I guess the answer is now “Nine years.” Amazing.
Jim: Haha, McCosky and his stupid mustache messed up. That amuses me since it’s a factual error not a typo. Though I think you meant to say, “Kwame is more well spoken [well-spoken] THAN I imagined him to be”. I think it’s pretty funny that the comment about Kwame’s speech pattern included a “then” for “than” situation. Not a terrible mistake, but the DBB community is known for collectively being an extreme stickler for grammar. But more importantly and productively, on the issue of Kwame, I like seeing this side of him. In terms of the signing, I’ve always liked it and thought it would make a serious impact. Hopefully, I’ll have reason to like the move just as much come August 2009.
Food for thought (and I’m sure many of you have looked at this as well):
Ben Wallace’s averages based on per 36 minutes:
Career: 7.4 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 2.5 bpg
Pre-Pistons: 7.2 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.33 bpg
W/ Pistons: 6.55 ppg, 10.78 rpg, 2.71
Age when sign & trade took place: 26
Paid: $4 mil and $4.7 mil in first two years
Kwame Brown’s averages based on per 36 minutes:
Career: 11.3 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 1.1 bpg
Pre-Pistons: n/a
Age: 26
Paid: $4.1 mil a year for 2 years
So we already know that Kwame won’t be putting up these numbers if he plays 36 minutes and trying to claim that he would is not the point of this post, but more importantly how many of us expected Ben to put up the numbers he did when Joe D. made the sign & trade for Big Ben?
Like Ben, Kwame has a lot to prove. The main difference is we’re not asking Kwame to be the heart and soul of this team nor are we asking him to play starter minutes. We’re asking him to be a backup center who can come in and play defense, offer up fouls, and get putbacks when possible.
So is Kwame a #1 overall draftpick bust? Most likely. Is he a legitimate starting center in the NBA? Doubtful. But he’s not getting cash that a starting center would get in today’s NBA, he’s getting paid for what he will be - a backup center. And as far as a backup center is concerned, he’s right there in the middle of the pack.
I’m not expecting to convince any of the Kwame-haters that he’ll be great or Ben Wallace-esque, nor am I expecting Kwame to perform beyond what he has already shown us in his career. But like some other folks said (moneyball-talk guy), this is a low risk with potential high reward move that provides an improvement over theo ratliff and provides depth to a front court who’s starters are only getting older…plus all the salary implications, etc.
So rather than questioning Joe D’s decision, let’s just question Kwame’s production next year.
One last question, if we hadn’t used this money on Kwame Brown, who should we have used it on and why?
Excellent post, James B. I’m in the wait-and-see camp for Kwame. But I’m also in that camp for Amir. Kwame better not out-perform Amir, dammit!
“If Kwame produces the way that he claims he can in the article, I think we’ll all be happy. Of course, Kwame detractors won’t believe it until they see it, and may not even be willing to believe it once they see it.”
I am not a big Kwame detractor, but I won’t believe it until I see it. I think he can replicate his better seasons here, which would make this a good signing, but I also believe that he could flop.
“So we already know that Kwame won’t be putting up these numbers if he plays 36 minutes and trying to claim that he would is not the point of this post, but more importantly how many of us expected Ben to put up the numbers he did when Joe D. made the sign & trade for Big Ben?”
I saw the potential, but figured he wouldn’t get much burn behind JYD. That said, Kwame Brown was not nearly as effective as Big Ben was before joining the Pistons.
James B.: The Celtics won the title. Kendrick Perkins will make around the same amount as Kwame. Kendrick Perkins starts. Kendrick Perkins sucks. Fabricio Oberto will make $3.5 million/season for the next two years. Fabricio Oberto has a ring too. And oh yeah, when getting comparable minutes, Kwame puts up better offensive numbers and comparable rebounding numbers when compared with both of them. I’m just putting this information out there.
Garrett: I think Kwame and Amir are apples and oranges. Whoever performs better shouldn’t affect the other, in my view. In fact, I think you and I should invest in two leather jackets. One of the leather jackets will say apples and the other will say oranges. One of the leather jackets will feature a picture of Amir (yours) and one will feature a picture of Kwame (mine).
Kevin: I hear ya, but I believe that for a guy to go #1 in a draft where the top 4 picks were all big men (not at all comparable to Olowokandi in 1998), Kwame’s got to have some talent in there somewhere. I’m one of the most passionate proponents of the theory that certain players’ careers are changed with proper psychology.
Kwame’s environment, expectations and subsequent attitude determine his success in my view. I don’t think there’s a better environment than the one Kwame is walking into, and if the quotes ring true, the attitude is there. It’s damn hard to be 19 and be expected to carry the banner for a franchise when you’re just “solid”. Being traded for Caron Butler onto Kobe’s team is a pretty high expectation and unforgiving circumstance. In Detroit? No expectations. I see Kwame (on proper minutes) going for at least 8 and 6 a night, despite all the DBBers who are labeling this signing the proverbial end of days.
I’m going to say Kwame is going to be a really solid addition until he proves he isn’t.
James B.
really good post. As far as Kwame Brown goes I think he is who we think he is, If I may borrow a phrase. And that’s okay. He won’t need to score just maintain his better than average man to man defense and I for one would count his acquisition as a success.
One area I do hope he improves on is his defense of the pick and roll though.
@LB:
“James B.: The Celtics won the title. Kendrick Perkins will make around the same amount as Kwame. Kendrick Perkins starts. Kendrick Perkins sucks. Fabricio Oberto will make $3.5 million/season for the next two years. Fabricio Oberto has a ring too. And oh yeah, when getting comparable minutes, Kwame puts up better offensive numbers and comparable rebounding numbers when compared with both of them. I’m just putting this information out there.”
Kendrick Perkins and Fabricio Oberto play next to two of the best power forwards in NBA history– and two of the top rebounders every season. When Fabcricio got his ring, he was standing to the right of a man who grabbed nearly 11 a game.
Point being– those players individual stats matter only when compared to the rest of that team’s front court. Since Detroit doesn’t have a [willing] starting PF that can dominate on that level, we can’t insert an Oberto, a Perkins and expect the same performance from our front court.
But I could be wrong.
(don’t get me wrong, I am a fan of this Kwame signing, and I am excited about it.)
LB: I know Kwame and Amir are different planyers/positions, I just meant that we’ve been waiting patiently for Amir to do his thing, meanwhile everyone knows Kwame has had a bum career thus far. An underachiever coming in to do better than Amir would be a huge blow to the Free Amir-ites. The leather jacket scenario made me laugh though — imagine walking down the street and seeing two dudes with matching jackets, one with a photo of KWAME and one with AMIR? Hilarity!
And also, OT in honour of Kemp saying he’s coming back to ball overseas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnllvlZ6Ec4&feature=related
Co-sign with MP. Except the part about being a fan of this signing.
MP: Duuuuuude, Rasheed doesn’t need to score 20 on our team, he just needs to play like a badass and score like 15 on more than the 7 two-point FGAs/game he has shot the last two seasons. While he’s not Garnett or Duncan I willingly concede, he’s a handful for any defense when he plays smart. He did that when Ben was here. Maybe he’s exhausted on offense from playing C on both sides. Maybe he’s exhausted from getting older. I dunno what it is, but I’m not feeling like flinging blame at Sheed right now. But, if Sheed is the Sheed of 2003-2006, this team, with its current roster, is championship worthy.
Besides, if we’re talking about front-court stats combined, if we can get 9, 7 and 1 block per game out of Kwame, we’re right on par with those front-court outputs (reg. season) in their championship years. Yes, that’s a little more to ask of Kwame than Perkins and Oberto, but for the detractors (not you personally, MP), he’s better than them. Kwame can do at least 8, 6 and .6 on the Pistons in 25 mins./game, and he will probably do more than that if he gets the burn. That’s a lot less to ask than replace Caron Butler’s 15.5, 5.8 and 1.9 (dimes) in LA under the cold glare of Kobe Bryant or to be the savior of the Wizards. I’m sorry for the overflowing optimism, but I really like Kwame’s chances.
Just for clarification, what we’d “need” from Kwame, those numbers are based on Sheed’s numbers in 2005-2006, the last season with Ben (14.5, 8.2 and 1.5) versus Perkins/Garnett this year (25.7, 15.3, 2.8) and Oberto/Duncan 2 years ago (24.4, 15.3, 2.7). Perhaps that’s not the best measure, but my whole thing with Kwame is predicated on Sheed responding appropriately and playing more effective offense while often getting a break from defending the other team’s center on defense.
LB, I guess it depends on how much you buy the “Michael Curry will have these guys playing the right way” theory. If he can handle this team the way LB did and get these guys doing the right things, then yeah, I’d say you’re right. I want to buy that theory, but I’m just kind of resigned to the idea that the beginning of next season is going to be a little bumpy as a transitional period. I really hope that I’m wrong, but I’d rather expect worst case and then be pleasantly surprised.
I also think that your projection of Kwame’s numbers is wildly optimistic. But I want you to be right.
Garrett: +100 for that Kemp mix, thank you for that. I can’t quite justify it, but I really like M.O.P. (their music is on the mix). I really have no reason to, but I do. But on the Kemp tip, man did he jump out of the gym. And yes, when Amir and Kwame become the new twin towers (if only), those jackets will make us some mighty cool cats.
Other Matt: I totally understand the wildly optimistic call. It may prove to be such, but it also wouldn’t be the first time Kwame got numbers like that in serious minutes. He averaged 7.4 and 6.6 in 72 games on 27:30/game for the L.A. Kobes in ‘05-’06. He did really well against the undersized Phoenix front-line in the playoffs that year, going for 12.9 and 6.6 on 52% FG shooting and 71% FT shooting. The next year he put up 8.4 and 6.0 for 27:36 over 41 games (nagging ankle injury) in the regular season. He went for 8.6 and 6.6 in the rematch against the Suns, starting in all 5 with 26:36/game of run. I kinda feel that Kwame is pretty reliable in the playoffs. He seems to play better in the post-season from the limited evidence. Perhaps vigilant reports of his uselessness (from others, not yourself) were greatly exaggerated. If Kwame is healthy, I think we have a really solid contributor on our hands.
@Other Matt:
“Co-sign with MP. Except the part about being a fan of this signing.”
I should clarify– I’m excited about this signing because I’m excited to see how it turns out, good or bad. Fortunately, if it turns out bad– we’ve got a solid salary for trade to push before the deadline. Win/Win, IMO. Regardless, thanks for the co-sign, you’re my brother through thick and thin.
@LB:
Duuuuuude, you totally lost me. I read that you’re trying to defend Sheed, and something about combined front court stats, but I think I missed your point in regard to what I was saying. Not trying to be a dick, just a little confused.
I believe Coach K is making a big mistake not playing more Tayshaun Prince. All of the guys getting minutes are ball hawking and going for the steal and not playing straight D. I think Coach K loves stars and himself and all the crap about doing things the right way doesn’t include a love for playing honest team defense.
My best USA 5 at the Olympics
PG - Chris Paul
SG - Kobe
SF - Tayshaun
PF - Lebron
C - Chris Bosh
Tell the team to stop going for steals and just play the other guys straight.
@joejoejoe:
I wish the US would adopt a policy that our national basketball association’s champion gets to represent the US in the Olympics. The Pistons in 2004. The Celtics (spits next to computer) in 2008. You’d have teams that know how to win together, that play defense, that share the ball, that would dominate in the olympics. Not this retarded alley-oop and posterize superstar nonsense that brings the “me attitude” to the world sport. (no offense if anyone here is retarded, just using that word as a matter of speaking)
Joejoejoe - I’m right there with you. I read all the columns and watch the exhibition games. The columns and my personal viewing agree: team USA is playing some terrible defense. Kobe’s doin’ aight, but he can’t stop all five of the other team. It makes me scratch my head when Tay gets two, three minutes a game when he could be the anchor of a zone D. I’m getting a bit sick of LBJ and Wade gambling on steals and then watching their man feed a big into the post for an easy layup. This stuff ain’t gonna cut it against Spain or Greece. It hardly cut it against the Boomers.
MP: Let me try to clear it up, as it’s all in response to this comment you made:
“Point being– those players individual stats matter only when compared to the rest of that team’s front court. Since Detroit doesn’t have a [willing] starting PF that can dominate on that level, we can’t insert an Oberto, a Perkins and expect the same performance from our front court.”
I believe Kwame is better than Perkins and Oberto. I’m predicting that Sheed+Kwame’s numbers are going to be VERY comparable to Oberto+Duncan and Perkins+Garnett should Kwame get legitimate run. In essence, I’m saying that it doesn’t matter that we have the semi-dominant Sheed and not the über-dominant Garnett or Duncan. The front-court stats are all in the same ballpark if Sheed drops about 14-15 and 7-8 per game and Kwame drops about 8-9 and 6-7. Both of them have had those numbers before. Did that clear it up or make it more confusing?
Aussie Aussie Aussie!
Oi Oi Oi!
Yay, we only lost by 11.
And now back to your scheduled episode of…
Days of our Kwame.
Much better, LB. I got you.
I will agree that, best case scenario, Brown could be as effective as Perkins/Oberto. While I’m a tremendous fan of Rasheed, a little too much so, Duncan and Garnett are perrenial 20/10 guys. Its a completely different ball-game having them on the floor, they are the anchor on both ends of the floor, they make every other player more potent. I think Rasheed + Brown won’t bring anything close to the inside game that Garnett + Perkins and Duncan + Oberto bring. I could be wrong, but adding stats doesn’t tell the whole story, IMO.
@Laughton,
Like sands of the hourglass, you consistently crack my shit up
My brother from an Australian mother!
“I believe Kwame is better than Perkins and Oberto. I’m predicting that Sheed+Kwame’s numbers are going to be VERY comparable to Oberto+Duncan and Perkins+Garnett should Kwame get legitimate run. ”
Hmmm… You’re talking about 24 and 17 in 54 minutes and 26 and 15 in 56 combined minutes respectively. That means you are hoping for, at minimum, 11 and 9 per 26 minutes from Kwame.
Just saying…
Other Matt,
One thing that has not been discussed is a comparison between Larry Brown and Michael Curry, which you touched on in your earlier post. Even Larry Brown had his players taking time off during the regular season and getting behind the 8-ball in the playoffs (going down 3-2 against New Jersey for example).
I’ve always wanted to buy into the “playing the right way” rhetoric but it seems like its a phrase that is used about as much as “hard-nosed defender” or “awful waffle.” Can Curry get these guys to “play the right way” and is Curry’s definition of the “right way” similar to Brown’s?
While I think that Larry has an obvious step up from a strategic aspect as a head coach which simply comes from 1) being Larry Brown and 2) vast years of experience as a head coach at multiple levels, I think Curry will outshine Larry in motivating his players to “play the right way,” which to Curry seems to be “Play your hardest all day, every day and if you don’t then get off the court.”
Is it just me or do Pistons fans and Lions fans have WAY too much in common? The past three years have been all hopes and dreams in the off-season which are followed by flashes of brilliance that keep those hopes alive through some or all of the season only to be squashed at the end and started all over in the following off-season. Or are all franchises that don’t win like that?
Unrelated side note but Pops absolutely coached the pants off LB in the 2005 NBA finals, particularly in game seven. Nobody ever mentions this but SA always seemed to know EXACTLY what they wanted to do next every time up and down the court that game. In particular that last inbounds play proved Detroit didn’t. I don’t really care to revist such a painful moment, but NOBODY ever mentions how bad LB got owned that night…..
probably had his mind on becoming president of B.O. in Cleveland instead of the game.
PG4L - I wouldn’t say Popovich coached the pants off of LB. I just think that LB got to be too much like Gollum and his Precious wasn’t winning 4 out of 7 but playing perfect basketball. I forget which game it was after (probably game #4) but I remember LB rattling off a bunch of stats from the box score like Detroit TOs, TOs forced, rebounds, FT%, assists — he was so focused on the beauty of the team play in the moment that I think he lost sight of the need to duplicate that over the whole series. Maybe trying to play the perfect game isn’t compatible with just trying to be better than your opponent 4 times out of seven.
joejoejoe,
In LB’s defense Game 4 of the 2005 Finals was the single greatest performance I have ever seen by an NBA team. That was the game where we only had 3 TO’s, Ben Wallace was Ben MF Wallace, and I thought there was no way the Spurs could recover from that glorious ass kicking. I’m not even joking. Look at the box score.
I agree on that game, Other Matt, as well as Game 6 of that series.
Also, agree that LB got outcoached in that series, or at the very least in Game 7. His decision to start doubling Duncan led to so many open threes that blew open the game. Plus, he should have played Dyess more because the bigs looked gassed.
JAMES B., I wouldn’t say the Pistons fans are like Lions fans. The Pistons have actually won once. The Lions have pretty much destroyed all hope in me. Last year was the final straw.
Game 3 against the Lakers was pretty perfect too.
Other Matt - I agree. Before I posted above I was looking at the box score to confirm it was game 4 . I just think Popovich put 5 extra grains of sand on the “resilience” scale and Larry Brown put 5 extra grains of sand on the “perfection” scale and here we are 4 years later talking about how perfect game 4 was and in San Antonio they are talking about a ring. It was that close in that series.
QD,
Yeah I mean I guess I’m just talking about our hopes being raised every year and being disappointed now three years in a row just like the Lions get your hopes up and disappoint every year. Obviously the Lions have much more experience with doing this :-).