So far we’ve heard about the possibility that Antonio McDyess will return to the bench, but from the sounds of things, that may already be a foregone conclusion. From Keith Langlois at True Blue Pistons:
Among the other subjects he touched on, he confirmed what we’ve been suggesting for the past month – that Antonio McDyess will go back to the bench to give more scoring punch to the second unit and better utilize McDyess’ talents.
“With Dice starting last year, he averaged the same number of shots in eight more minutes a game as the did the two years before that,” he said. “We think he can be more efficient when he’s not out there with the starting unit. We have so many guys who are capable scorers and who want to score the basketball. What we have on our second unit – and I know you don’t always play first and second unit at the same time – we have Rodney Stuckey, who, like Dice, could very well be a starter, and when you have both of those guys anchoring your second unit, you allow your role players to play their roles and not play outside of themselves.
“You’re not asking Amir Johnson to become a primary scorer or Jason Maxiell or Kwame Brown. Same with Arron Afflalo. Those four guys are key and their success is about having the right combinations and having a really good post scorer and a really good perimeter scorer out there with them. That will help with their development.”
So who has a leg up on the starting job entering camp? I figured it’d be Maxiell, but that’s apparently not the case. From Chris McCosky of the Detroit News:
He hopes to use a five-man frontcourt rotation. Amir Johnson, it appears, is going to get every opportunity to win the starting spot alongside Wallace. McDyess will be the first big man off the bench, with Brown and Jason Maxiell getting regular minutes — Brown getting more minutes against bigger teams and Maxiell against smaller, more athletic teams.
It makes sense to me, although I admit I’m a little surprised. Maxiell has always been ahead of Amir in the pecking order, but it’s worth remembering that the order was established by the old regime. I’d always taken for granted that Maxiell would see more time than Amir this year, but that’s apparently not written in stone.
I’m a huge Maxiell fan, but Amir has been one of the most productive players in the entire league regardless what metric you use. Can he keep it up with more PT? Historically speaking, the numbers suggest he can. Anecdotally speaking, Johnson always seemed to play better when paired with Wallace, who’s always been vocal in terms of telling young players where they need to be on the court.
I know a lot of fans are bummed that Joe Dumars didn’t make a big trade, but can you imagine an opening night starting lineup featuring Amir Johnson? If that’s not a reminder that the Flip Saunders Era has passed, I don’t know what is.
I’m a little surprised by this too, but if they’re serious about moving Sheed back to PF then it makes sense. I love Max, but he has to work incredibly hard when he plays center and often gets dominated by bigger, less athletic guys (perkins). I say use Amir, Dyess and Kwame as our centers and let Sheed and Max share PF duties. I also wouldn’t mind seeing Max at the SF more, test out that jumpshot.
I don’t think Maxie will have to worry about getting minuts. Amir Johnson has averaged 6.5 fouls per 36 minutes throughout his career, including 6.6 per 36 last year. Even if he starts, I think he maxes out at 22 min per game average.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsam01.html
Don’t worry Max, Amir promises he won’t eat all the babies.
Any-hoo its shaping up as an exciting season for this team. I got a feeling, a bit of an inkling, this could be THE year.
…or that’s my opinion anyway
Good news, I hope Amir does start. He’s worked hard since coming into the league. Maybe they will go big on the bench and have J-max play SF with Mcdyess at PF and Brown at C. I’m sure against some teams that would be a great lineup.
Billups
Hamilton
Prince
Johnson
Wallace
Stuckey
Afflalo
Maxiell
McDyess
Brown
I bet Flip is at home on his couch in some grubby old sweatpants and a hoody, thinking, “Amir in the starting lineup?!?! GENIUS! Why didn’t I think of that!”
Interesting about the bigs, but I’m still wondering about who will be the main backup SF.
I like the move. I think Max is great at providing spark from the bench…. Not sure how that spark off the bench thing will work out with Dice though… given that he’s turning 57 this year. But I hope it works out. Whatever the case is, if they start Kwame, I’m going to be really, REALLY pissed
I think Herrmann and Rip will be the main backup SFs, more or else, depending on matchup. Curry’s been talking about having Stuckey, Rip, and Chauncey average 30 min. a game each, which would leave just 6 minutes for Afflalo at guard. But, if Rip plays some SF, then Afflalo can get more time.
I am really looking forward to see how we are going to use Brown. Since I live in Los Angeles I have seen a lot of him over the last few years and several things are for sure with him.
When he is healthy he can defend the low post against the bigger centers.
He gets his hands on a lot of missed shots but because he has such awful hands his rebounds per minute throughout his career have below average for a player of his size.
He can shoot fairly well, but because of his awful hands he just misses a lot of gimmee’s, more than enough to drive you crazy.
His decision making on offense when he has the ball is below average.
I don’t expect that MC and staff can cure Brown’s bad hands so we are just going to have live and suffer with it like Washington and Los Angeles did before.
It’s not that he can’t score because he can have some fairly productive nights on offense, hitting double figures, but he just misses too many opportunities that he shouldn’t miss.
In any case he will probably be the last option on offense so I think his defense can definitely help us. It wouldn’t surprise me to see him getting more minutes than Maxiell against teams with a bigger front court of which there a lot.
———————————————————-
Amir’s high foul rate is do to several things.
1. Not getting regular minutes.
2. Being overly aggressive on defense
3. Being out of position on defense
4. Attempting to block shots when he should not.
5. Being basically a rookie the last years and not getting the benefit of the doubt on calls.
All of the above will be mitigated as he gets more minutes and learns better how to play defense (things that are coachable) rather than just playing defense using his athleticism (things that are not coachable).
I think he will always have a high foul rate, but there is no reason that he can’t average 30 plus minutes a game once he gets into a rhythm.
Boozer fouls out of a lot of games (I believe 6 last year) yet he is an all-star and a Gold Medal guy.
Amir in the starting line up? That’ll light up the boards…
Birdman:
I kind of fear the idea of having Rip or Afflalo play a lot of SF, because they are undersized. And Herrmann is still a ? It frustrates to me to know end that the Pistons haven’t been able to find a decent backup SF since Big Nasty left.
As to bigs, Detroit wouldn’t spend all that money on Kwame without planning to use him, would they?
NO end, not “know end.” Good grief I’m a maroon.
I think the other starting big man should be based on the quality of the introduction given by John Mason.
Eh, we still need a perimeter player. We have absolutely nobody at this position on our bench.
@Fadel:
We’ve got Hairman and Sandman. While the latter is unproven, he’s got a ton of potential. And when given solid PT, Herrmann has proven himself to be an efficient wing shooter, a slasher, a rebounder, a defender… If those guys are our biggest weakness, I’ll take that any day of the week against any team in the league.
Well, I don’t think that Sharpe will see any significant minutes. Rip is on the skinny side for a SF, but at 6′7″ he’s not giving up significant height. If the opposing SF is a post-up threat (i.e. Paul Pierce), then of course Rip shouldn’t be guarding him. However, there are a lot of SF’s that don’t post up at all, so Rip can play SF at those times.
All I have to say is “WOW”…I like Amir just as much as the next “Amir Fanatic” (hell, I even met the guy) BUT Maxiell deserves a starting spot.
I don’t mind Amir starting. I am willing to muddle through a mediocre 24 games to see what we have in this guy. If he proves to be even a semi-star, the Pistons have to be considered the favorites to make it out of the Eastern Conference.
One benefit of having a rookie coach is that he will likely heed the mandate to let the guys play. Having a roster that goes nine deep with starter caliber players is a boon only if you can stick with an effective rotation.
I don’t mind Amir starting. I am willing to muddle through a mediocre 24 games to see what we have in this guy.>>
I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.
Last year when Amir was in the rotation; i.e. played at least 10 minutes in the first 3 quarters we were around 23 - 5.
According to Wages of Win Journal Amir’s WP/48 last year was .244 second only to Mr. Big Shot’s .304.
Maxiell clocked in at .141
Stuckey at .069
http://www.wagesofwins.com/Detroit0708.htm
As QD already said…it’s not really who starts that’s important, it’s who’s finishing the games. I think most of us would agree that Maxiell deserves to start since he’s a more accomplished player at this point, but Curry is looking for the best fit and balance for the starters and bench.
I think most of us would agree that Maxiell deserves to start>>
I don’t think that Maxiell deserves to start at all, especially with Sheed. That would give us three guys up front, Sheet, Maxiell and Tay none of whom can rebound.
Maxiell has disappeared the last two years in the playoffs.
People like him because he has a monster slam and great hops when he has abundant energy. But he has never shown in three years in the league and he has been given plenty of opportunity that he can bring it on the second game of back to backs. He disappears way to often.
In my opinion Maxiell has shown that he a career 2nd unit guy, a slightly better version of Rony Turiaf.
Sorry about the typo.
It should have been Sheed, Maxiell and Tay.
Mike, I usually ignore your posts because they are way too freaking long, but the statistics on Amir are solid. I’m not really a stat-head, but in this case I think it’s useful. It jives with what I see with my eyes. We seem to have a handful of guys who can change the dynamic of a game. Stuckey, Max, Amir, and to an extent Afflalo are all guys who make things happen.
I kind of indifferent on Amir starting. I’d prefer him to play with Stuckey and Afllalo on the 2nd unit, but think he could be useful as a starter. Most teams start the game with the guys who are going to finish the game. If Amir can buy us 15-20 minutes per night constantly hustling against somebody else’s starters, he can maybe frustrate them, wear them out a little, and draw some cheap fouls. He also might inject a little energy into our starting unit. We’ve kind of played the energy guys together, I’d like to see what happens when we sprinkle them in with the “core 4″.
ALSO: Mike, you clearly weren’t paying attention if you thought Max faded in the playoffs this year. You can’t seriously think that. Don’t make me go dig up the YouTube of him consuming all of KG’s children.
<>
Mike, you’re insane. Maxiell was the ONLY one who showed up in the 4th Quarter of Game 6 against Boston. He hit some big shots and Flip should have kept him in there over Sheed.
I also remember you saying Maxiell should be benched in favor of Amir (?) right before Maxiell went 6-6 and energized the Palace with a vicious rejection of a Garnett breakaway.
Not sure what you got against this guy…
<>
Amen.
That was supposed to read…
“ALSO: Mike, you clearly weren’t paying attention if you thought Max faded in the playoffs this year. You can’t seriously think that. Don’t make me go dig up the YouTube of him consuming all of KG’s children.”
Amen.
@QD:
You took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn’t agree more. I also believe that if Flip played Maxiell more against Cleveland in 07, we would have had another championship…
Strong words MP. Not sure I would go that far, but I definitely remember Maxiell being the only one who didn’t look scared to shoot at the end of game six. He was hitting that rising jumper with ease.
I don’t really care who starts although I would agree that Maxiell isn’t a great rebounder and Sheed is also slightly below average, so it might not make sense to start them together.
I don’t really get Mike’s criticisms of Maxiell, but since he cited wagesofwins, he is probably just really, really high on Amir.
Maxiell didn’t seem very fazed in back to backs this year from what I saw (a non-issue in the postseason at any rate) and he was fine in the playoffs. My only complaint was that he was marginalized on the boards in the Boston series. In last year’s ECF, he was shafted for consistent playing time for no apparent reason after his electrifying Game 2. The only other time he sniffed consistent minutes was game 5 when McDyess got ejected.
“ALSO: Mike, you clearly weren’t paying attention if you thought Max faded in the playoffs this year. You can’t seriously think that. Don’t make me go dig up the YouTube of him consuming all of KG’s children.”
Or chowing down on Lebron’s children in the ‘06 ECF, for that matter.
*’07 ECF, for that matter.
It’s late give me a break.
@Colin:
While it was a long time ago now, I do remember feeling pretty adamant– and exclaiming my feelings rather profusely, that Jason Maxiell was the key to winning that series. We needed energy off the bench, we needed shot blocking and rebounding, we needed someone to put Lebron on his ass, we needed someone to fight with Varejao for energy on the glass. Maxiell was the key, and I’m sure that if I watched that series again and saw how cold we were as a team I would have yelled at the TV and Flip for not playing him again.
Everything we needed in that series, from one end of the floor to the other, Maxiell could have delivered.
Starting would burn Maxiell out. I don’t think anyone will dispute that he is prone to wearing down, because he has to play incredibly hard to battle PFs and centers at his size. The best place for him is either in limited minutes against starting caliber bigs, or an expanded role against the other team’s lesser players. That’s where he can be consistently successful, which serves the team best.
I agree that Maxiell did hit a wall last season after being worked pretty hard down the stretch. Being “prone to wearing down” is a common talking point about Maxiell here and in sports media. I’d caution that we don’t have enough evidence to claim that Max is “prone to wearing down” when he’s only done so once. One season of data, with one occurrence of hitting a wall isn’t enough to levy that label.
Besides, adjustments in athletic training alone could be enough to quiet the theory. Point being, I think it is a bit premature to say definitively that Maxiell would burn out– or that he is “prone” to wearing down.
However, the fact that Maxiell did hit a wall last season does raise a bit of concern. While I’m defending Maxiell, I’m personally in the “give that young Johnson fellow a crack at it” camp. Its not about the negatives about Maxiell, but because I want Amir to have a chance to prove us all right. If he fails, oh well– we’ve got big men galore who are all starter quality. Oh, and Kwame Brown too…
Amir! I knew it! I believed in him! YOU SHOULD TOO!
John W. Davis
http://www.pistonscast.com
I have always advocated for Amir to get more minutes. He is apart of the future and should be treated as such.
Alot of fans say he is not ready because of the end of the season.
Who is really ready to guard Garnett?
Sheed? No
Dice? No
Maxiell? Ye… I mean NO
Amir? Heck No. But We should not hold that against him. He is a baby and just needs time on the court.
Amir has alot more potential than Maxiell and he’s alot younger.
Believe in him and he will believe in himself.
John W. Davis
http://www.pistonscast.com
Eh, he hit a lull in January and February, but he closed the season out well and performed in the playoffs. If he were taking a hit in production because his style of play was too strenuous or because he can’t handle heavy minutes, his production should have suffered through March and April as well. I think the notion that he gets easily worn down is a little overblown, but one concern that someone else brought up is that he may not be able to do what he does night in and night out for ~25-30 minutes/game. He hasn’t had too many stretches where he’s played that many minutes every game, but to his credit, he has done very well in games with more than 25 minutes of PT.
This is all moot since Amir seems to be pencilled in at the moment, although the same kind of issues could be applicable to him.
Who is really ready to guard Garnett?
Sheed? No
Dice? No
Maxiell? Ye… I mean NO
Amir? Heck No. But We should not hold that against him. He is a baby and just needs time on the court.>>
A very significant factor came to light very recently about why Amir had problems guarding KG in that game in Boston.
That obstacle to Amir being able to guard KG this year has been removed and I expect, notwithstanding any injury he may get that will cause him to miss a significant amount of games, that he will be the leading candidate for the NBA’s most improved player of the year award.
Yes, who is going to guard Garnett? That’s like asking who’s going to guard Sheed when he’s got that little turn around going.
I’ll directly quote Phoenix assistant Alvin Gentry, “ain’t nobody on Earth guarding him when he has it going like that.”
Do I need to freaking remind you that when KG-Allen-Pierce combined for SEVENTY FIVE points, on some absurd shooting percentage, we still beat them? I do? Consider this your reminder.
MP -
I agree that Max should have gotten more time and with your point that that he would have provided what was lacking. I just thought that it was a little bit of a stretch to argue that increasing his pt would have lead to a championship. So basically, I 90% agree with you, but I’m really bored so I’ve decided to be a douche and parse ridiculous hypotheticals.
I cannot wait for the season to start so we have some real shit to argue to death.
wow, im so happy i stumbled upon this site before the season started. i was raised in inner city detroit, but threw all my travels, am now in bfe, ky. hard to get a REAL pulse of the detroit fan down here, the best i can do is the freep. thanks to the peeps who started this site, i plan to be here all year. this amir thing perplexes me. i agree that max has shown all kind of great things, but i kinda get the whole “we need a real big at center” thing. from what ive seen here, i already like curry at coach more than flip.