I can’t remember the last time I saw a team have four players foul out — let alone three starters, at home in a double-overtime game. But that’s what happened Friday against the Jazz (I’m glossing over yesterday’s game for the time being …).
Beat reporters from both sides noticed the tight officiating — here’s what Ross Siler wrote in his blog for the Salt Lake Tribune:
Back in the preseason, we sat through a presentation on the points of emphasis for NBA referees this season. One of the referees who worked that game and helped give the presentation was Mark Wunderlich, who was in charge Friday as well.
One of the points of emphasis was on eliminating holding on inbounds plays. In the second overtime Friday, Richard Hamilton fouled out trying to be a roadblock for Deron Williams as he tried to get open on an inbounds.
It was the right call, but also a really tough call to foul out a player like Hamilton, who sent the game to overtime with his jumper at the end of the fourth quarter. There were still more than four minutes left in double overtime; the Pistons had four players foul out in all.
At least we did get a Walter Hermann sighting in the second overtime. Hermann hadn’t played at all before he got off the bench to roars to replace Rodney Stuckey. There were several Jazz players on the bench trying to stifle their laughter.
By the way, best heckle of the season so far came in Friday’s game. One Pistons fan yelled at 71-year-old referee Jack Nies after one call: “Hey Jack, that’s why they don’t let old people drive.”
Chris McCosky of the Detroit News was less amused by Nies’ performance:
Of course, the Pistons aren’t going to win many games when Jack Nies in one of the officials. Now everybody is going to howl that this is sour grapes. But I swear it’s not. The refs didn’t cost the Pistons this game. The Jazz were the better team when the game was on the line. Take nothing from them at all.
But Nies has long-standing feuds going with both Wallace (who he tagged with his 10th technical foul) and Iverson. It is so obvious that he has major issues with both of those players. Nies is 71 years old. He shouldn’t be out there in the first place. I wish the league would look at the film of this game. There’s no way they could not think Nies was acting out on his grudges.
Jack Nies can officiate the All-Hate Team ‘09.
I’m pretty sure Forty’s girlfriend would have either put Nies in his place or made the necessary adjustments to deal with the calls.
Forty’s girlfriend +1
The officiating is not in the top five reasons why we lost that game.
great PG match-up tomorow night, Stuckey vs Rose.
Its hard to win those 5 on 8 games.
If we lose to the Bulls at home, I’m not even going to show up for work until some time next week. There is so so so much shame in our game right now.
Anyone think we’ll get in to the lottery this year?
The new tight officiating rules don’t apply to the Celtics
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The real reason that Curry has gone to small ball is not about this year.
It is about Stuckey’s development at PG
Here are a my reasons.
1. It is very unlikely that the Pistons would have gotten to the ECF this year even with Billups, given how the Cavs and Celtics are playing.
2. The core of the Pistons including Billups is getting old so it is highly unlikely that the Pistons fortunes with the Billups would have been any better in the future, over the remaining 2 years of his contract, after this year.
3. Trading him for Iverson did two significant things.
3.1 It has now given them $35 million in cap space starting next July 1st. (Sheed’s along with Iverson will both become free agents)
3.2 By trading Billups it has allowed the Pistons to increase Stuckey’s responsibility on the court. He has now become their starting PG with Curry playing small ball. Inverson has gone to the #2 and Hamilton to the #3 and Prince to the #4.
4. Stuckey who has still only played about 80 regular season games (remember he missed 25 at the beginning of his rookie year) has made significant progress toward becoming one of the top 5 PGs in the NBA. So far this season he has upped his scoring to almost 11 ppg and his assists to 5 apg in about 25 minutes. Much more significantly he has improved his shooting percentages significantly to where he is shooting 47% overall and 41% from behind the arc.
Since he has been inserted in the starting lineup 6 games ago he is averaging 15 ppg, 8 apg and 4 rpg and these are still basically rookie numbers in terms of games played.
So the bottom line of the Billups trade for the Pistons is
1. Next summer they will have $20 million more in cap space
2. Stuckey will be better than Billups before the end of next season as Billups slows down from getting older and Stuckey continues to get better.
So even though this year the Pistons won’t do as well this year as a result of the trade, going forward if Dumars makes the right move/s with the $20 million from Iverson’s expiring contract the trade will have been a great one for the Pistons.
The changing of the PG in Detroit.
Change we can believe in
This is Mike and I approve this message.
@Mike : I don’t disagree with any of that reasoning, but I could do without the insistence by the Pistons organization that it’s about this year. If your reasoning is correct then they should be bringing AI, and his expiring contract, off the bench. Why not start Amir instead of AI so 2 players can learn their chops? I would… then we’d have a good shot at a lottery pick. If we keep this small ball idea going we’ll have the (relative) worst of all worlds: Lose in the first or second round of the playoffs AND have a late draft pick. Seriously, does anyone think we have a real shot at a title this year?
Mike:
I get the idea that we traded Billups because we weren’t going to get over the hump with last year’s roster, we have a Point Guard Of The Future in Stuckey, and we’ll create cap space for the future assuming AI doesn’t play here nest year. And if the Pistons aren’t good enough to get into the ECF this year, so be it. Nobody does that every frickin’ year.
But here are my problems. First, this “small ball” thing, although it’s one way to get Stuckey more minutes, is both not a good way to win this year AND not a good way to develop players down the road. Playing Rip and Tay out of position isn’t good for this year or next year, and frankly it’s not that great for Stuckey to be a point guard running a gimmicky offense that can’t go deep in the playoffs.
Also, the small ball idea keeps us from further developing Amir and Maxiell, and finding out if they and/or Brown can be solid cogs on an elite level team, this year or in the near future. Suppose next year we get rid of Iverson and get, say, Boozer or Bosh. Given that ‘Sheed and Dyess will be even older, don’t we need to know now-ish if our young bigs are part of our future?
If they aren’t, then I would bet that the current Pistons - Iverson + Boozer or Bosh still won’t getting over the hump. But if our current young bigs are going to be part of the future, shouldn’t they get some significant and meaningful real time playing with Stuckey — and sooner rather than later?
@Toledo Joe - right! Force our growing pains now rather than hang on to past glory.
“I can’t remember the last time I saw a team have four players foul out — let alone three starters, at home in a double-overtime game. ”
Uh, how many double-overtime games do you have in your instant-recall memory? And are you really sure that number of players did or did not foul out? It would seem somewhat likely to me that more and more players would foul out the longer the game goes on…
I think that there is a problem with starting Amir and I would love to see him starting as much as the next person, with a few exceptions and we know wo those are.
I think the problem is that I don’t know if bringing AI off of the bench is practical.
I don’t know that he would go for it. I also don’t think that it is practical bringing Rip or Tay off of the bench for much the same reason.
I am also not sure that Amir is going to start next season if if Sheed is gone and with Dyess a year older.
With $35 million in potential cap space that creates a number of options for Joe D. not only in the free agent market after this summer but also possibly in the trade market.
—————-
Yes maybe I am a little to pessimistic about this year’s possibilities but until I see otherwise through wins on the court I will hold my position.
The Pistons are 9 - 10 since AI came over. We have been basiclly around .500 for the last 10 games and a lot of those games were against some pretty awful teams. So I just don’t see it.
I don’t see how you win with small ball on a consistant basis. Even GS was basically just a .500 team with small ball.
Teams like Denver and Phoenix ran a lot but I wouldn’t say that they played small ball more like medium ball.
Tay is just not cutting it at PF.
Maybe Joe D. will work a trade within the next 2 months that will enable us to go bigger.
I just wish Amir was another 20 plus pounds heavier.
I still want to see him on the court even if it means getting trading.
4 Pistons foul out and Amir is never allowed (there I believe have been a couple of exceptions) to play after getting 4 fouls; 2 per half. This is totally dumb.
Either play him using the six fouls and get him the ball when he is on the court or trade him.
corr. That is 10 - 11 since AI came over.
Toledo Joe is 100% right and that is why Michael Curry should be fired immediately before he pisses away another half a season of not developing the guys that we need to develop.
Hopefully management realizes before the trade deadline that this season/team aint gonna do squat in the playoffs. Sell now. Build for the future.
it is amazing how no matter what the begining topic is we always return to the incomprehension and frustration about the benching of amir. stupid, stubborn, and inscrutable.
A good example of the 3 foul per half rule
Lakers vs Grizz tonight.
Bynum got 2 fouls in 7 minutes in Q1 and went to bench
Jackson put him back in to start Q2. Unfortunately for Bynum he got his 3rd foul within the first minute of Q2 but at least he had a chance to use the 3 fouls.
Amir should get a chance to use all of his fouls. Not letting him do so is just dumb.
@Brad:
“Hopefully management realizes before the trade deadline that this season/team aint gonna do squat in the playoffs. Sell now. Build for the future.”
First, we have nothing to sell. Our pieces are more valuable either on this squad or expiring.
Second, this team CAN do something in the playoffs, we have the personnel to possibly earn us another ECF appearance and, with a little luck, even more.
Our problem, first and foremost, is our coach. With this coach, we “aint gonna do squat in the playoffs”.
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2008/12/22/dirk-nowitzki-would-take-a-pay-cut-to-play-with-better-teammates/
MW says Dirk would take pay cut in 2010. Would Dirk and Boozer work together? A lineup of Stuckey, Rip, Tay, Boozer, and Dirk sounds pretty tough.
MP, diagree. This team as currently constructed cannot do anything in the playoffs. This is mostly because their coach is effing clueless. The roster is talented, no doubt. With the right breaks, we might be able to do something, but not with the team being coached by Curry.
I think we have little to no chance of beating Cleveland or Boston in a 7 game series. And I’m fine with that. Boston might be the best team of all-time. And Cleveland is very, very good. With the right coach, I think we’re just good. Nothing to be ashamed of. Not trying to be a downer, but I’d have to get laid some pretty nice odds before I’d be betting on Detroit over either of those two teams.
But I’m still going to enjoy this season to the fullest. And though I prefer winning NBA titles, getting to root for a player like Allen Iverson is pretty damn fun. Dude just goes hard.
Also by “right coach” I meant “my girlfriend”
Greg Oden’s line tonight vs Denver
Min 21
Pts 10
Rbds 3
Fouls 6!!!
I would love for Amir to get enough minutes in a game so that he can foul out!!
@OM:
I don’t think we disagree at all. I said that this coach won’t cut it, but this roster can.
“This team as currently constructed cannot do anything in the playoffs.”
With the right leadership, I would favor this roster to have the advantage over Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, Orlando and New Jersey in a 7 game series.
Boston or Cleveland? Not unless we begin to show miraculous might and resolve as the season continues– and get lucky in the playoffs.
But with 57 games left this season, it is possible that Orlando could climb above Cleveland in the standings. If that happens, we could find ourselves playing Miami in the 1st round, Orlando in the second and earn another spot in the ECF. Even if Cleveland remains the 2nd seed, its too soon to count this roster out of a first round win, maybe more.
Note that I say “this roster”, because this coach isn’t getting us anywhere but an early exit.
“Boston might be the best team of all-time.”
Not even relatively close. I don’t want to go too far into that - but think about the league today vs the league in the 90’s and 80’s. Today, the third best team in the East and 4th overall is the Orlando Magic led by Hedo Turgkolu, Rashard Lewis and Dwight Howard. The third best team in the East in the 80’s could be your choice of the Bad Boys, the Barkley-Malone 76ers, or the Hawks and Bulls sporting the best player of all time and one of the best players of all time. Or perhaps you forgot about the Bulls team that won 3 in a row, than Jordan left for two years, the team blows, Jordan comes back and they win another 3. No team without Michael Jordan on it is the best team of all time. Boston can run up its gaudy record but their W’s are not equivelant to 80’s or 90’s W’s. Not even close.
As far as no chance against Cleveland? What? Because of small ball? Small ball helps us against Cleveland because we don’t have to guard Cleveland’s PF. So, instead of having McDyess or Sheed doubling on LeBron we now have Taysaun who will be able to recover on his man much better. Also, it means AV and Ben Wallace will have to cover Prince (a much tougher cover than a McDyess or Maxiel would be). And, like I said, we don’t have to worry too much about Prince being undersized as Cleveland gets about 10 points a game from their PF. Also, Clevelands back court doesn’t beat ours. Iverson/Stuckey vs. Williams/West, really, we’re not taking the Pistons? Sure, West will get some opens 3’s. But we have possibly the hungriest NBA player for a championship in a 7 game playoff series. We win the guard battle. Rip can’t guard LeBron, but Rip is much tougher of a cover than Prince would be. I think if Afflalo got serious minutes on LeBron we can take that series.
@JB:
While a single game is nothing near a solid sample, note that Mo Williams had one of his three best games of the season against when AI was guarding him. Even if we move AI to West, that’s still risky, West is one hell of a player and can GO OFF when the emotion strikes.
That aside, DET has had its best regular season game against CLE when Rip was guarding Lebron, not Tayshaun. If we start small against the Cavs, we might be able to replicate that.
I haven’t had enough time to think about how DET’s small ball matches up against CLE yet. Before I really think on it, I can say this: our last squad couldn’t get it done against CLE, and we were lucky to take CLE in 06 before losing to miami. They outplayed us in the playoffs in nearly every game across two seasons. That said, who knows– this lineup might give us a better opportunity against Cleveland than we had with the Chauncey squad…
Re the idea that our pieces are all more valuable to us than to other teams, I think that’s true of all the starters (except maybe AI) and McDyess, but what about Maxy, Amir, and Brown? I’m not saying any of them are super-valuable to other teams, but we’re basically not playing them at all, and I can think of a number of teams for whom a big “energy guy” (Maxy, Amir) or half-decent big body (Brown) off the bench would be a useful cog.
I personally don’t want to give up on any of those guys, but if we’re not going to play them, we should and I think could get something of some value for them.
As to where the current Celtics would rank all time, Sir Charles was on the radio the other day decrying how watered down the league was. He said that Jordan’s Bulls, the Bad Boy Pistons, Magic’s Lakers and the Bird-era Celtics were all much better than the current Celtics.
@MP - Dumars aint gonna fire Curry this season… so, unfortunately, that’s who’s going to be our coach in the playoffs.
So would you rather have a serviceable team that makes the playoffs and loses to Atlanta in the first round, and end up with the 20th pick in the draft… OOOOOR, would you rather start a questionable player now(Amir), gauge his aptitude, and probably miss the playoffs… ending up with a top 14 pick…. POSSIBLY the #1, 2, or 3 pick?
Also… I’d trade Rip. He’s a movable piece. He’s a fine player, but maybe you get a younger player like Chris Kaman, or a high first round draft pick. The Supersonics got a #5 draft pick for Ray Allen… Why couldn’t the Pistons do something like that? Hasheem Thabeet anyone? Start Stuckey, Afflalo, and Tey next year. If you can add a center by trading Rip and land Boozer or Bosh, this team would look pretty young and pretty good. Don’t you think? 2 years from now think of this lineup: Stuckey, Afflalo, Teyshaun, Bosh, Thabeet… with Bynum, Sharpe, Maxiell, and Amir coming off the bench.
@Brad:
“@MP - Dumars aint gonna fire Curry this season… so, unfortunately, that’s who’s going to be our coach in the playoffs.”
Statements like that– based on opinions, self-confidence or otherwise, don’t make for good discussions. I’m not willing to concede that trigger-happy Joe won’t make a change if our direction warrants it. If we sink below .500 and MC continues to fuck up this roster, I’m confident Joe will make a change.
“So would you rather have a serviceable team that makes the playoffs and loses to Atlanta…”
You’re essentially saying: “throw the team, get in the lottery” and to focus on developing Amir? I’m as fervent an Amir supporter as there is, but I’m not willing to a) throw the season and b) make our focus the development of Amir Johnson.
I’ve been calling for Amir to start at the four since small ball started, but not for his development– because his skill set as it stands right now can offer precisely what this team needs with its three guard lineup. If he develops at all during those starts, that’s excellent– but there is no evidence that this organization would ever consider Amir’s development a top priority.
“Stuckey, Afflalo, Teyshaun, Bosh, Thabeet… with Bynum, Sharpe, Maxiell, and Amir coming off the bench.”
On that list, there are only TWO reliable scorers– Stuckey and Bosh, only one of which is certain to be a Piston in 2010. Furthermore, you’ve moved a sure-thing scorer in Hamilton for that lineup. I’d favor our current squad to make it out of the first round over that one. (also, you mention Amir coming off the bench there– I thought your focus of this season was to develop him. you might be a little less confident than you think)
And trading Rip for a pick? That Ray Allen - #5 turned into Jeff Green. Who would you rather have on your squad: Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton or Jeff Green? I’ll take either of the first two, please.
“Statements like that– based on opinions, self-confidence or otherwise, don’t make for good discussions. I’m not willing to concede that trigger-happy Joe won’t make a change if our direction warrants it. If we sink below .500 and MC continues to fuck up this roster, I’m confident Joe will make a change.”
EVERYTHING that’s come out of the Detroit organization whether it’s Joe saying it, Curry, Davidson, or their PR department indicates that Curry and Joe are on the same page, these “growing pains” were expected, and this team won’t be judged until it gets to the playoffs. Yes, you can dream up a fantasy scenario where Curry gets fired, but currently everything is going “according to plan” by Dumars, Curry, and Davidson.
“You’re essentially saying: “throw the team, get in the lottery” and to focus on developing Amir? I’m as fervent an Amir supporter as there is, but I’m not willing to a) throw the season and b) make our focus the development of Amir Johnson.”
No, I’m not. I’m saying force our growing pains into 1 season rather 3. That’s not throwing the season. If Amir steps up to the plate this season then GREAT… if not LOTTERY HERE WE COME!!! Its not about his development as much as it is throwing in the middle of the lake and letting him sink or swim… and then reacting appropriately.
“Stuckey, Afflalo, Teyshaun, Bosh, Thabeet… with Bynum, Sharpe, Maxiell, and Amir coming off the bench.”
“On that list, there are only TWO reliable scorers– Stuckey and Bosh, only one of which is certain to be a Piston in 2010. Furthermore, you’ve moved a sure-thing scorer in Hamilton for that lineup.”
First it’s a hypothetical team meant to show what the possibilities might be if we moved Rip (who’s 31, btw.) Second, it’s a very solid defensive team where Bosh is your #1 option, Stuckey #2, and Tey #3. That’s, at the very least, a good young foundation.
“I’d favor our current squad to make it out of the first round over that one.”
Who cares about the first round?
“And trading Rip for a pick? That Ray Allen - #5 turned into Jeff Green. Who would you rather have on your squad: Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton or Jeff Green? I’ll take either of the first two, please.”
Well he’s not a great player, but he’s not awful(16 ppg sophomore season)… it really doesn’t matter anyways because we wouldn’t be drafting Jeff Green. I’m sure if we go through all the #5 picks ever drafted we’d have a decent shot at finding some talent.
ok… just out of curiosity, starting from 5 years ago, I checked out the previous 20 years of #5 picks… here’s the top 10:
1) Kevin Garnett
Jason Richardson
2) Charles Barkley
3) Scottie Pippen
4) DeYawn Wade
5) Ray Allen
6) Steve Smith
7) Vince Carter
9) Mitch Richmond
10) Juwan Howard
… not such a bad list, considering that’s half the players.