No need to ask anymore questions, Carlos Boozer is staying put. From the team’s press release:
Utah Jazz forward Carlos Boozer announced today that he is exercising his player option for 2009-10 and will be returning for his sixth season with the organization.
“We are excited that Carlos has decided to remain with the Jazz,” said Utah Jazz general manager Kevin O’Connor. “We are hopeful he can continue to play at an All-Star level and will have an injury-free season.”
Does this mean Millsap is officially a Piston?
Makes sense, given what he was going to earn. Hey, AI is an RFA. Let’s sign him.
Except that him opting in puts the Jazz way over the cap into luxury tax land, where they don’t want to be. Someone will get traded - Boozer likely.
Yep, I’m thinking this actually makes Boozer even MORE attainable.
The Jazz will definitely trade him. If they don’t, they’ll lose Milsap and then Boozer will demand max money next season because they’ll be out of power forwards if they don’t give it to him.
Has Dumars cut Oberto yet? If not, maybe he’ll offer a Oberto for Boozer trade. I wouldn’t mind one year of Boozer because he’s going to play his ass off next year.
QD: That’s what I’ve been envisioning since last season started going south. Boozer held up his end by exercising his contract option. Now we just need to execute part #2 and get Boozer for scraps.
For sure. I think he learned his lesson about playing 37 games in a contract year. What’s the window that we have to turn Oberto around?
I’d rather trade for Bosh, but Utah will be more desperate than TOR. Joe could probably get Boozer for Maxiell and a case of Cheetos.
Fuck giving them Maxiell. Why wouldn’t they take just Oberto. That’s only 1.8 mil if they cut him. Gives them more room for Millsap and Okur.
Boozer for Kwame
Boozer for Sharpe and three of Curry’s suits.
I think the Pistons have to cut Oberto by tomorrow (if they haven’t already).
Doesn’t the nba also release the salary cap for the upcoming year today?
You have to be within spitting distance salary-wise to make trades work. Oberto’s 4 mill vs. Boozer’s 12 just won’t do it.
“We are hopeful he can continue to play at an All-Star level and will have an injury-free season.”
I believe that this is a perfect example of damming with faint praise.
Wow, talk about a less-than-enthused announcement. That’s equivalent to the kid who just opened socks on Christmas day. “Thanks, everyone. Socks are…..just what I wanted. Great. *looks longingly towards older brother’s younger, more productive, injury-free toys*”
It does seem that if we play our cards right, this could actually help us a lot. Now we can sign 2 players, hopefully one of them being Gortat, which will take us up to the salary cap, then trade players with smaller contracts (like everyone’s suggesting, hopefully this can be Oberto) for Boozer, to bring us up to the luxury tax. That seems like the best way to add 3 impact players.
Maybe we could do Gortat for 7-8 mil per year, and sign Ariza for something in that same range, then trade for Boozer.
That would leave us with a core of:
Stuck/MFWB
Rip/AA
Tay/Ariza/Daye
Boozer/Max
Gortat/Kwame
Signing Ariza would add enough depth to the SF position that it would allow Joe to change-up the old core even more, as we could probably then trade Tay for a couple of young players (maybe to Portland for Rudy Fernandez and Travis Outlaw, or something along those lines). Then we’d have youth and athleticism at almost every position, and more 3 point shooters.
Ariza’s not leaving LA. Not going to happen. Don’t even wish/hope/dream about it. They’re going to spend whatever they need to and sign Odom and Ariza back.
Excellent. I always thought FAs Memo/Milsap were better values than FA Boozer. Now we get to find out. I think the cap space and the bad economy are going to allow the Pistons to add 2 impact players and 2 strong rotation players to the current group under contract, all of them young and at a good value. I think that gives you a better chance at winning a championship than trying to nab one of the 2010 prizes in the middle of a bidding war. Who is bidding against the Pistons in this market? Nobody! It’s sweet.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=l684v8
The best part about this deal is that Boozer doesn’t come here.
Gortat for 7-8 mil per year? Yikes! He’s not even worth the midlevel, flashes aside. If the frontcourt consists of Gortat, Kwame, Maxiell, and ANYBODY else, Joe will have failed miserably.
Tim, since we’re under the cap, we can deal small salaries for big (or in the clips/camby deal, noting for players). I think there’s going to be some bidding for millsap.
I don’t think Utah can trade Boozer before Millsap gets an offer. That’ll be a quick trade if it occurs. Can’t sign anything until next week, but you can give guys offer sheets tomorrow and if I’m trading for Boozer, don’t I want him signed before trading? And Utah will have to take back contracts for roughly the same except somebody like Det who can take back more (props LB).
Given how Ariza’s agent said he’s looking for 8-9M with no hometown discount, the Lakers sign Ariza and let Odom walk. Odom can probably get 8-9 somewhere. However, between the two they made something like 16M combined last year, so it’s not out of the realm Odom stays, but for far less than he could get on the open market.
Sauce: I don’t see how that helps the Hornets. They already have the league’s highest payroll and are looking to cut salaries. If they weren’t in that position, it’s a great trade all around. Maybe they do take the hit this year but that would still leave Utah with not alot of money for Okur/Millsap.
Boozer’s still in the final year of his deal, yes? Srsly, you don’t see that? lol.
Plus, you missed the joke.
Maybe we could do Gortat for 7-8 mil per year, and sign Ariza for something in that same range, then trade for Boozer.
If Dumars pays Gortat $8 million, he’s a fucking idiot. Jesus.
“*looks longingly towards older brother’s younger, more productive, injury-free toys*”
Nice work sir.
Mehmet also opts in:
http://www.nba.com/jazz/news/okur_remains_with_jazz_for_200910.html
“If Dumars pays Gortat $8 million, he’s a fucking idiot. Jesus.”
If you remove the period in that sentence you get Fucking Idiot Jesus. Yes that’s right Joe Dumars is Fucking Idiot Jesus!!!!
To the Photoshop machines!
Crucify him!
I think i’d rather go for side-show then any of the undersized pf’s out there…
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4298237
I did not expect both Boozer and Memo to opt in. It gets more interesting everyday.
God damn it, Craig. No! Bad!
Craig, Milsap > Varejoke. Seriously. Much better.
Here’s a sleeper as a slept on front-court rotation piece-Channing Frye….before you snicker, remember that he did average 14 and 8 in his rookie yr w/ playing time. He’s an UFA and could be had for peanuts. Brings the pick n pop game….something that we are gonna desperately need if(when)Dice leaves.
No question Millsap > Varejao.
Didn’t say we couldn’t get both. Also, who’s more piston then Varachow? Crazy hair, antagonizes the shit out of other teams, and scraps his ass off every game.
Varejao!?….I cant even remember the last flopping Piston!…..oh yea AI
No way Verejao gets over the $6 mill he would have otherwise. On a day of smart moves by players, he makes the dumbest move of all.
Signing Varejao would make me quit watching the team. It really would. Just imagining it now is making me so very angry.
Feldman at Piston Powered thinks we might have the $ to go after BOTH Milsap and Okur.
That’s something I hadn’t thought of … what do y’all think of that move?
Millsap might get overpaid by OKC Stolenteam.
Milsap is the main guy I wanted, seems like things are falling into place.
I don’t see how we can get both Okur and Milsap. If we get Okur than they’ll have the space to sign Milsap. We’d have to overpay both.
Also, Gortat is worth about 6 million in my opinion. And I despise Anderson. I think Gortat will end up being better in the long run, too.
Can anybody verify when Okur has to decide by? I heard 10pm. How about Oberto, do we have to cut him today?
This is a little off subject: Why is everyone considering Austin Daye a SF? Isn’t he 6′10/11ish? Even if the guy is built like a human twig, I would say he would be in the PF/C range.
Nevermind re: Okur opting out. I see he’s staying. Man, Utah is kinda fucked.
Utah is now at 73.5M in salaries for 11 players. The luxury tax is expected to be at roughly 70M. 13 players is the minimum roster, so they’d have to add at least 1 minimum salary player in addition to potentially keeping Milsap. It would be tough for them to sign Milsap if some team offers 8-10M since they’d essentially be paying double his salary next year. They can potentially lose a lot of salary after next year though with Okur, Boozer, and Korver’s contracts all running up. So they could re-sign Milsap if they were willing to shell out some extra money for a year.
I guess I didn’t notice it on Draft Day, but the Sixers went retro.
You’re welcome for not linking the main page.
Diablo,
Austin Daye is 6′11″ and 192lbs. I just looked up Chris Bosh on hoopshype.com and he’s listed at 6′11″ and 210lbs.
The Detroit News (or Free Press) said that Kander is working with Daye and expects him to be at 210lbs by the start of the season.
So, maybe he is a PF…
Maybe he’s a Pfffft.
Now that Memo has opted to stay with Utah, I wanted to ask you guys what looks like the most likely option for the Pistons: to pull a Camby-Clippers trade for Boozer and try him out for one year, or to legitimately chase Millsap, since Utah no longer has the financial flexibility to match an honest offer for him.
Also, I keep hearing great things about Millsap, but from the limited times I’ve seen him play, he just seems like a better-rebounding Maxiell. Would he really be worth ~$9mil/year, be the answer we’re looking for at the starting 4, and be much of an upgrade over Maxiell? It seems to me like Maxiell could produce about the same if given the same opportunity/touches, but again, I’ve only had a limited view of Millsap.
Correction: nba.com has Bosh at 6′10″ and 230 lbs.
Bosh is 230 on the Raptors’ official site.
For a guy his size (speaking of Daye), I think 210 is definitely attainable by the start of the season or even pre-season.
But like I was saying, for his height (and that won’t change, unless he gets taller), he should be considered a PF even if his weight is not there.
I dunno. I think Utah’s willing to go through luxury-cap land for one year because next year will have Boozer and others come off the books… they might be pretty much the same this year as they were last…
Dwyer says Saunders good, Pistons players the real problem.
His argument has merit, but even if you think Saunders was a good coach, you could still be in favor of letting him go. It clearly wasn’t working with him and coaches are more easily replaced than players.
Dwyer’s been saying that for years. His arguments are very cogent versions of our tried-and-true “flip the switch” critique of the 04 championship vets.
@Rob G
“… they might be pretty much the same this year as they were last…”
Unfortunately I think you may be right. If they only have to deal with it for a year and are able to retain Milsap after I think they may go ahead with it. They would be nuts to let Milsap walk just to save a few bucks this year knowing that both Okur and Boozer could, and in the latter’s case will most probably, skip town after next season.
I think that going after both Charlie V and Gortat seems like the most logical move at this point. If we go after Milsap and lose that battle while in the meantime CV and/or Gortat get snapped up we could be kind of screwed at our frontline for the upcoming season.
Of course there is always the possibility to try and trade for Boozer but does he even make sense on this team anyway? A PF who playz no defense and spends half the season dressed in a suit rather than a uniform? No thanks. The guy seems like nothing but trouble and if Joe D. is true to his word that he looking for character players then he should forget about this guy.
“First of all, let me say that I have all the respect in the world for Kelly Dwyer; the guy watches more basketball than any 10 fans combined.”
Yeah, and he seems to be wrong a whole hell of a lot.
playz—- playsSomehow the ghost of AI’s Detroit past took over my fingers for a second.
He’s as wrong as 10 wrong fans combined, not just one!
No Gortat!
What do you have against Marcin, Antwan?
I’m not sure how willing Utah would be to go over the luxury tax considering they got bounced in the first round.
Gortat sucks.
He wants to play in New York, anyway.
So do we get Ben Gordon at 12:02 AM?
Apparently Free Agency begins at 11:01pm, officially. T - 10 minutes…
ohboyohboy free agency time yeahyeahyeah let’s spend some $$$
TDP
Jun 30th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Maybe he’s a Pfffft.
Well done, sir. Nicely played.
I try, Boney. I try.
I’m definitely warming up to this Ben Gordon idea. Sign the new Big Ben so that we’ve got some leverage in trading Rip.
Let’s bring Googs out of retirement ala Chris Webber
McCosky is saying the Pistons will look at Brandon Bass if they can’t sign Millsap or Villanueva. Please… didn’t McCosky say that Curry wouldn’t be fired?
That seems like the logical progression…..regression
Anyone want some wrist-slitting fun? Here are two articles that suggest our FA targets are Hedo and Big Baby. hooray!!!!
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?articleid=1182333&srvc=sports&position=4
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/1646531,CST-SPT-bull01.article
So how much do all these new toys cost? My half assed guesses based on Boozer going for his player option below.
Per year
Boozer - $12.7M
Hedu - $10M
B. Gordon - $9M
Milsap - $8.5M
Ariza - $8M
Odom - $8M
Villanueva - $8M
S. Marion - $7.5M
Gortat - $7.5M
A. Miller - $7M
B. Bass - $5M
S. Novak - $4M
C. Anderson - $3M
L. Kleiza - $3M
M. Daniels - $3M
G. Hill - $3M
A. Parker - $2M
So how do you spend $19M?
Public Enemies … baffling. How do you fail with Michael Mann, Johnny Depp, and Christian Bale? When you have no clear goal for Dillinger, that’s how. It’s … not good. Stay away.
Hmmm…sign Sideshow Bob and Psycho RonRon…and still have $$$ to make a run at an elite FA next year.
Now, why do I feel this way? Because Dumars is going to remake this team in the original Bad Boys image, just like he did (albeit a little sideways) with the Time to Work crew. These two are tailor made for such a project.
JJJ how do you value Psycho Ron? $8M?
I personally would prefer Ariza, but he’s staying out west, even if for a little less $$$. You’d have to overpay to get him.
I like Tay’s game, but I have the feeling he’s going to get dealt, because this is probably the last best chance to deal him for something of value.
Well, we’ll all now for sure in a couple of days or so…
I’d say..,.
Artest - $7.5M
Sideshow Bob - $5M
They said on ESPN this morning that twe are targeting Ben Gordon and Charlie V.
Happy Canada Day, everyone! Celebrate with a nice, smooth Canadian Club Whiskey!
Stop with the Varejao talk. I’m going to have a hemorrhage. He’s not a “Bad Boy,” he’s a whiny pussy and a goddamn flopper.
@ JIM: I saw that too. Seems to me we shoud focus on a SnT - since we can take more salaries back. I can’t figure out firing Curry and then trading Rip if we’re chasing Gordon. Given we only have TWO big men on the roster, seems to me we should be chasing down some BIGS. I still think Joe D. makes a trade for a big with either Tay or Rip. But if he’s hell bent on signing Gordon, does Rip go to Utah for Boozer? Then that’s alot of money to pay for a backup if Rip doesn’t leave.
For simplicity sake, let’s say OKC chases Millsap, Memphis prys ZBo from the Clips, where does Lee then go to? Utah is going to have to trade Boozer at the deadline to a team that has a verbal from Boozer to resign . . yeah, good luck on that one. Which means I think Utah can’t do anything regarding Millsap. OTOH, fewer teams are projected to pay the lux tax and instead of getting back ~3M teams are looking at only getting back ~500K from what I’ve read. Does Utah go into major lux tax to sign Millsap? ~8M this year?
I also wouldn’t mind signing Frensesko kid Utah didn’t extend a qualifying offer to (I believe). He can probably be had for 1.5M and WTF, he’s 7′2″. Not bad insurance and a plug to our front line.
Did we release Oberto?
Mmmm.. Canadian Club.
MB…I don’t think a Rip for Boozer trade will happen now. The reason Utah would want to trade Boozer would be to save money this year and eliminate or reduce their luxury tax payment. Rip makes just as much as Boozer, so that trade doesn’t help them in that respect.
@Sauce
Really? That’s disappointing. I was almost an extra in a ballroom dance scene (does that happen?). They filmed that shit like two blocks from my old apartment so I became acquainted with a handful of the production crew. At least the period sets/cars/signs/etc. looked awesome. I had I hopes though. Well here’s hoping that The Illuminatus! gets made into a movie someday so Dillinger gets another shot at the big screen.
If we sign Big Baby I’m boycotting. Ditto for Sideshow Bob. We need to figure out a way to turn Tay + somebody I don’t care about into Staudemire. Kerr clearly is trying to run the Suns into the ground– do you think they did something mean to him that no one knows about? And this is just him getting revenge? If not, I don’t know how he lives with himself, running the funnest team in the NBA into the ground like that.
Via Tom Ziller @ Fanhouse, the Celtics did not offer Leon Powe a qualifying offer after the guy tore his ACL last year. Stay classy Danny Ainge! The guy helped win them a title, did everything right, and made all of $800K. If I’m Jod I’m showing some faith in Powe and signing him to a small deal while he is hurt and giving him a chance to recover and prove himself again, a bit like McDyess.
@joejoejoe
If he can be had for <$2mil, I wouldn’t mind Powe. But clearly the injuries are a problem= and even when he’s healthy he’s a 6′6″ PF, and I’m not sure how many 6′6″ PF’s we need.
We need to look up Gortat SOON before the bidding war gets out of control. Apparently Dallas and Houston are already pushing hard for The Hammer– it feels like this could get out of control like the Jerome James situation back in ‘05. I love the guy, but he’s not worth anything more than $7mil/yr. Problem is, with Yao possibly done forever (!!!), I could see Morey throwing big time money at the only real center available this offseason (and we all know how Cuban likes to swing his dick occasionally).
@ Jim: Yeah, I just thought about that. This really does put Utah in a bind. The GM is saying that he’d talk to the owners and let them know what their options are as it pretty much states the obvious that they never thought they’d be in this position. But they are already 3M over the cap, and I think they only have 11 players under contract excluding Millsap so they’d need to sign one more for the league minimum. Offer Millsap 11M with a declining number and I don’t think Utah matches, because if they do that 11M becomes 22M for Utah the first year.
It says Lee turned down a 34M/4. Supposedly he’s looking for 50M/5. I unfortunately think we’ll have to go with Charlie V to start if for no other reason than we have no front court and we need at least 1 scoring punch from either the 4 or 5. And if I’m Jod, I make it plan to every agent out there that before your client sign an offer sheet, gimme a call last. Hell, we got the most money to spend.
And then I think we do a Kaman/Thorton for Tay trade before the Grizz pry ZBo from Clips and then they don’t have to do a deal. Which kinda makes sense for the Grizz. They can put Marc Gasol at the 5, ZBo at the 4 and allow Thabeet to develop for two years. Which seems kinda whack saying allowing the second pick in the draft time to develop.
With Charlie V able to stretch defenses and Kaman down low, I’d be happy with that and thorton is on his rookie contract and I believe this is his 3rd year which means we could always pick up the 4th and give Daye another year to develop. Kandar thinks he can get Daye up to ~210 before the start of the season and I would hope 220 before next season. Like someone said above, bosh is 6′10″ 230 so a SF at 6′11″ 220 with a 7′+ wingspan would fill in nicely.
Now if you’re Charlie V and can sign for more with Det or play with Bron/shaq in Clev, what do you do? I think you gotta take Det. Bron might be gone next year, Shaq also and if you’re the “missing” piece for the Cavs and they sink, it’s on your head. Plus, if Bron/Shaq leave, Clev will be more than the mistake by the lake. They’d be the Clippers east.
Another option someone brought up and I really like would be Channing Frye. I think he’d play better defense than CV, can be had for probably 2/3 the cost. Start him at 6.5M, offer Gortat 6.5M and since Joe D. seems hell bent on Gordon, pay him 9M to start. That’s 22M. Then just for shits-n-grins, trade Tay/Rip to Houston for McGrady and hope Houston throws in Battier. Gives Houston two players who can start and they don’t have to meet RonRon’s asking price if they so choose not to. Battier/Sharp/Daye man the 3 until Tracy comes back in Jan (assuming he does) and then we’ve got some money to do something again next summer.
Stuck/MFWB
BG/AA
Sharpe/AA/Daye
MAx/Summers/Frye
Kwame/Gortat
Did I mention we’d have some money next summer?
Our core would be: Stuck, BG, AA, Daye, Frye, Max, Gortat & Battier. I think MFWB leaves for more money, Kwame might stay might leave and we’ve got nearly 15-20M to spend next summer. If we’re going to blow this team up, let’s start from scratch and blow it up. And if McGrady does regain some form, though he won’t get alot of it back next season, he’s a cheap re-sign next summer. I think that’s a team you can build around by adding a piece here and there.
The other thing is depending on who we get as coach. I think Dyess goes for a ring (and I wish him the best of luck) but if Avery is coach we might be able to get him back. Particularly if the Houston trade goes down. We’re not challenging next year but the following year we might be able to push to the 2nd or third round depending how or who we get from McGrady (or himself).
What about Powe? http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/07/01/leon-powe-will-prove-the-celtics-wrong/
And I like the Brandon Bass idea, to a point, except he’s not a starter I don’t think.
McGrady? Really? He’s just another AI, except bigger with a more fragile body, isn’t he?
Volume scorer (read, inefficient scorer) who doesn’t contribute much other than his scoring.
Yeah, no on McGrady. I don’t think “red flag” even begins to cover it. I do like the Channing Frye ideas floating around though. Never understood why he just languished on Portland’s bench the last two years– the guy is Dyess Jr. Jumper out to 20 feet, athletic, 6′11″, I like the Lute Olsen pedigree. And it just smells of a classic “Jod steal”– castoff makes good in D-Town again.
The only big men we have under contract are Max and Kwame. That means we need at least two more, since hopefully a couple of our rooks make the squad and play some time at the 4. What are we going to do? Gortat is going to be gone soon. I can feel it. He’s the only legit big body out there. Trade? FA? We need to do something fast, because there isn’t going to be anybody left soon.
Let’s get Leon Powe ! Hard working and determined to prove C’s are wrong.
Things are starting to get interesting:
Benny G and Charlie V are meeting with Jod this fateful Wednesday morning.
Let’s just hope it doesn’t cost us the entirety of our $20mil to get them both. I’d like to be able to at least throw some money at Frye/Powe after all’s said and done with the big two.
Gordon is supposed to be visiting Detroit today. Why is Dumars wasting time with this guy? He’s a slightly taller and significantly less talented Iverson, with a little more shooting range. We don’t need another shooting guard! We have a really good shooting guard!
Meanwhile, all the available big guys are disappearing. This is driving me crazy.
So let’s say we sign Gordon. Does this guarantee that Rip is gone? I think it does. So obviously we’d be trading Rip for another starter-caliber big right?
Who?
The Clips don’t need another SG, so unless a third team’s involved, I just can’t see Kaman coming over, though I’d be all for it.
Rip won’t be enough by himself to get Amare from PHX, and again I’m not sure they need another SG either.
It’s starting to look like we might be moving both Rip AND Tay (hence the drafting of 37 SF’s). If this is the case, we have a few more options. Still though, I don’t know how Charlie V fits if we end up getting Amare or Bosh too. I guess we’ll see how this all plays out.
Benny G and Charlie V are meeting with Jod this fateful Wednesday morning.
Well, both of them is certainly a worst-case scenario. I was thinking CV31 next to a guy like Gortat or Kaman… not Kwame.
Whoa, Bill. Where have all the available bigs been disappearing to? I can’t find anything that says any free agents have signed.
@Bill
I don’t think you can say “significantly less talented Iverson” about Gordon until he’s allowed to play 44mpg and take 30 shots. I’m 100% convinced that Iverson’s entire career is a sham. You give any, and I mean ANY NBA guard 44 minutes, 50% usage, and 30 shots a game, they will all put up Iverson’s “numbers.” The fact that you even admitted that Gordon has “range” proves he’s not significantly less talented. Not to mention the guy has never had any character issues with the exception of butting heads with Bulls management– and who HASN’T butted heads with current Bulls management?
He’s not the end-all-be-all, but don’t sell the guy short with comparisons to the most unqualified future HOFer of all time.
None have signed yet, Craig, but other teams are pressing hard for them. Gortat is getting all kinds of love from multiple teams; Millsap is probably getting his offer today from OKC. That’s what I mean.
Unless we can get someone like Amare or Al Jefferson for Rip, I am guessing a Rip trade will be another Chauncey/Iverson-caliber failure. Keep in mind that BG is a significant downgrade from Rip at SG, particularly defensively. You’d need to get a huge amount of value in a trade for Rip to justify what you’ll be losing at SG.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens with Rip if/when we sign Gordon. Assuming we also bring in Charlie V. that’ll leave us with an excess of guards/SF’s and short on big man with a limited amount of money left. I think I’m ok with that though.
We likely aren’t winning a title this year and we can’t fix all our issues this summer unless we get some miracle Gasol for Kwame type trade. We need to get assets this summer and make trades down the road to further balance out our roster. The trades could be as early as later this summer or maybe in a year or two.
We likely aren’t winning a title this year and we can’t fix all our issues this summer unless we get some miracle Gasol for Kwame type trade.
I think you’re right with respect to our championship competitiveness this season, regardless of what happens.
But, I don’t see how overpaying BG and CV helps, either. The only way, I mean only way, I’m okay with signing these two guys is if somehow Jod could sign them both and still have $ left over for Gortat and if he can turn Rip into another quality big.
If Jod can’t, then we are in for at least 2 very long seasons, and perhaps more, depending on how tradeable the guys are that he might be signing right now.
Btw, did anyone see Around the Horn yesterday? They collectively ripped Jod a new one, which was entertaining to watch.
brgulker: I hear ya. But he’s got one year and he’s off the books which give us some spare change next summer. And I think alot of pundits are right. The owners have been using the economy and summer of 2010 to shed salaries and not be competitive telling their fans to wait until the summer of 2010.
I also listened to Mark Bartlstien yesterday on Fox radio and they talked about FAs and the economy. He basically said that’s a roose. He said look at March when stuff was worse (DOW low & trying to pass stimulus) and the FA period for the NFL still had large and significant signings. So he views the economy arguement as a red herring. Of course there’s a reason he’s gotten more than 1B worth of contracts done in the last 3 years.
And if Jod is hell bent on signing Gordon, then where does that put Rip? Christ, I don’t want to go thru what we did last season. Maybe a SnT with Chi for BG + TT for Rip? Isn’t TT still on his rookie contract? Chi doesn’t lose BG for nothing, given who they drafted with their two first round picks (4’s) and Noah & Miller, TT is probably expendable since I think they resign Noah before him and they still have a 2 (Rip) with that trade vs BG leaving for nothing, though Salmons could fill that role. Plus Rip comes off the books in 4 years, one year after they’d have to extend Rose so he’s a prime candidate at that point to trade in the last year of his salary. Signing BG for 5 years right now will lock up alot of money when they’ll need it for Rose and Noah and they signed Deng to a monster contract last year (or maybe the year before). I mean, in two years they’ll have a shitload of money invested in BG, Rose & Deng which by default will have to be their core. I guess it depends if you think Rip is worth 11M vs. BG at 10M for the next 4 or 5 years, because I think we can get BG for 10M.
I think Rip’s game will translate well in two years, but is he a 11M player at that point for what he’ll have the ability to bring to the table? His game right now is alot like Reggie’s, but Reggie could also float at the 3pt line late in his career and didn’t have to run thru screens all game long at that point to be a very effective player. Unless there’s great improvement, Rip’s not going to be able to do that.
And for all the shooting % and PER shit, I’ll take Reggie all day long at the 3 vs. Rip in a game of HORSE and give 10-1 odds. When Rip’s 3 pt goes in, it’s like Fuck Yeah. When Reggie misses an open 3 pt, you’re surprised. Big difference in how Rip’s game will be in 2-3 years.
Joel, I hated the Chauncey/Iverson trade as much as a human being can hate anything, but regardless I think it’s difficult to dispute that Iverson is one of the greatest physical talents ever seen in the NBA. He’s a certain kind of guard whose style worked very well in a certain kind of system where he became essentially a one-man offense. That system is opposed to what I think is best about basketball, but it’s a fact that some of his teams earlier in his career has a good deal of success with it. I think anyone who watched Iverson’s Sixers team in 2001 has to admire his talent. He’s not just some 5′11″ bum who miraculously duped several teams into giving him the ball all the time, and duped hundreds of skeptical reporters (many of them hated him when he entered the league) into awarding him the MVP. Which is not to say he ever, ever should have come to Detroit for Chauncey Billups in 2008. That trade was asinine.
I compare BG to AI because I think their styles of play are similar. BG likes to dribble the ball a lot and launch horrible, off-balance shots with a hand in his face as the shot clock expires. This was Iverson’s signature move in Detroit. I thought BG singlehandedly lost game 7 versus the Celtics through his godawful shot selection. I prefer offenses that share the ball and the scoring load. That’s why I much prefer Rip.
I also prefer Rip because I like when my team plays defense.
@Bill
Not trying to go after you, but I feel like your assertions deserve a little statistical backup:
2008-2009 Rip vs. B-Gordon
Ben shot a better percentage from 2, from 3, from the FT line, had more steals, more blocks (!), more rebounds (!), got to the line more, was healthier, and if you paid attention was much more clutch (against us twice AND in the playoffs). Obviously this is just one season, but of importance is the fact that this was Ben’s first season as the uncontested starting SG for the Bulls. I think the guaranteed PT and defined role helped him out immensely, as he shot his best percentage as a pro, put up his best defensive numbers, and definitely was “the man” for the Bulls during their stretch run towards and into the playoffs.
I’d rather have Rip, as I’ve said many times, but Gordon IS young, IS a stud, DOES get superstar calls, DOES finish games better than maybe anyone not named Kobe, and could be a dynamite piece next to Stuckey with his shooting ability. Not to mention that he and Stuck could switch defensively on the guards so that the height “issue” isn’t really that much of an issue.
no sugarcoat, GOOD big man HARD to come by. pistons need to make MOVE for good BIG MAN in free agnecy or TRADE. just epinion
O Jod, really? Villanueva AND BG. Doesn’t even make sense unless you got some convoluted bullshit up your sleeve.
AI was talented. His talent, unfortunately, did not translate into being a productive player, except with respect to scoring totals. His shooting percentage isn’t good. His turnover rate is horrendous. He doesn’t rebound. He gambles, so he generates some steals, but he leaves his teammates out to dry as a result.
There’s no disputing the guy’s talent, i.e., his ability to accomplish difficult things on the basketball court. But, when talent doesn’t produce consistent production, I refuse to label that as greatness.
If we sign Ben Gordon and Charlie V to long-term contracts (and if they are our only major acquisitions this off-season) there is a significant chance we will not make the playoffs for at least a couple of years.
Seriously, for the amount of money it will take to sign them, I can’t think of two worse possible choices. They are both very poor defenders, and they both rely almost entirely on jump shots for their offense. That is a toxic mix.
Please Jod, don’t be AFI.
Joel, I don’t put a lot of stock in steals/blocks as proxies for defensive skill. Iverson gets lots of steals too. That’s because he cheats on his man and gambles on them. Most of the time he doesn’t get the steal, and his guy scores an easy basket.
Gordon does get calls, that’s absolutely true. (That’s a big part of why his shooting percentages are higher, because he gets bailed out a lot more, so fewer misses hit the percentage.) You’re totally right on that one.
I watched every minute of that Bulls-Celtics series, and Gordon made a few incredible shots in difficult situations. He also seemed sometimes to want to create difficult situations to make the shots look more impressive if they went in. Did you watch Game 7? I know he was hurting, but he KILLED his team. He was absolutely awful. They could have won if he hadn’t been taking so many bad selfish shots.
Everyone keeps saying Stuckey is big enough to guard SGs, so Gordon’s smallness won’t be a problem. Stuckey is 6′5″! That’s not big for a shooting guard! Rip is 6′7″. And what happens when Stuckey plays badly and gets benched for Will Bynum, who may not even be 6′ tall? Does Gordon just have to come out of the game at that point too?
I don’t mean to go crazy against Gordon. I don’t hate him or anything. He’s fine for what he is. I just see his game as very different from what I understand to be the Pistons’ philosophy. The Pistons that I love have built their foundation on defense and selfless offense. That’s not Gordon, at all.
coachDP speaks the etruth.
I think McGrady (despite sharing family blood with Vince Carter) is less of an egotist than Iverson, and his personality would work better for us… but he isn’t much of a defender and I’d like to sign someone who plays D. McGrady would work better for another team, I’ll pass all day on that name.
If Dumars signs Ben Gordon and Villanueva then we’ll know that his love of tweeners has gotten out of hand.
Well, add the Rockets to the list of teams chasing Gortat: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Suicide-lines-Rockets-pursue-Gortat-Knicks-wan?urn=nba,174044
I don’t know why we’re not (or at least why it’s not obvious that we are or aren’t).
Gordon and Villanueva? Maybe the next coach is going to be Jim Calhoun. Can Jod acquire Jake Voshkuhl and Kevin Ollie too? Go Huskies!
“But, I don’t see how overpaying BG and CV helps, either”
I completely agree brgulker. We need to sign them at a dollar amount that provides value for us. The thing I like about these guys is that they are both young and have room for growth. I’d much rather commit money to them then guys who are 30+ years old like Odom/Turkoglu.
If we sign BG/Charlie V, the only guy on our team who would be over 30 would be Rip and he seems to be a likely trade canidate. Our team won’t be a finished product after this summer, but with so many young guys we have a chance to grow over the next couple years and make additions to balance out our roster and hopefully return to being an elite team.
A 6′5″ SG with Stuck’s strength won’t be a problem guarding 2’s. And what would Chi do if they do re-sign BG (though I think that’s pure smoke taling)? Rose at 6′3″ and BG at 6′2″-ish? That’s even worse. In the event MFWB plays, we could always use AA at the 2 in really bad match up scenarios.
Like I said, if Jod is hell bent on signing BG (and I’d take that before CV) then SnT Rip for BG/TT. We solve our starting 4 problem along with keeping our starting 2, we’ve got the money to do it and we’ll know in 2 years if TT is worth extending big time. Folks forget he came out after his freshman year so he’s only 21 or 22, BG is 26 and we’ve got one helluva an athletic 4 to help on D.
Plus I gotta think that if Avery is being pursued, defenseive attitude will not be a problem with him. But if the “splash” we make with our money in this position, BG & CV are lame unless Jod has some monster shit up his sleeve.
I also think that we’re getting ahead of ourselves when we see “BG looking for 50 mil. per season” and assuming that joe is handing out contracts for that amount. All the chatter from these players about how much they “want” is just setting the bar for negotiations. No way Jod signs anyone to a contract above what rip/tay are making right now. I think he sees 2-3 players around 6-9 mil. per year, since there isn’t a guy out there right now deserving an 8 figure salary.
MB, NBA.com was reporting last night that the Pistons haven’t talked to Avery and that he’s not interested in the job. It’s on HoopsHype.
Although MLive this morning reported that Avery *has* been contacted.
Like I said, if Jod is hell bent on signing BG (and I’d take that before CV) then SnT Rip for BG/TT. We solve our starting 4 problem along with keeping our starting 2, we’ve got the money to do it and we’ll know in 2 years if TT is worth extending big time. Folks forget he came out after his freshman year so he’s only 21 or 22, BG is 26 and we’ve got one helluva an athletic 4 to help on D.
That’s interesting, MB.
Who do you propose as the C in that lineup? I like Kaman, but obviously that requires moving and replacing Tay (if it’s possible at all). Do you think Gortat’s game complements TT’s?
Stuckey will have no trouble guarding SGs. Remember Rashard Lewis trying to post him up?
MB in SoCal,
Chicago is not going to trade TT, especially not for Rip when they’re giving up BG as well. Just not happening
More realistically…
I think Detroit solves it’s problems up front if they acquire Villenueva by then extending an offer to Powe. I know he’s hurt, but if they signed him he’d instantly have the biggest motor on the entire team.
Stuckey/MFWB
Rip/BG
Prince/Daye/Summers
Villenueva/Maxiell/Summers/Sharpe
Brown/Powe
Boney, isn’t Powe 6′6″? He plays bigger than his height, but he’s definitely not a 5.
Interesting idea MBinSoCal. I don’t think the Bulls will go for it (partly because of Rip’s contract and partly because they hate the Pistons).
I do like Tyrus Thomas though. Dude’s a headcase but that athletic ability and midrange jumper are so seductive.
If tt’s getting moved (and he’s being shopped) it’s for amare/bosh/all-star front court player. not for rip.
Gordon and Villanueva meeting with Dumars? So there are four eyebrows between the three of them.
BH: I think it’s a matter of timing. Something tells me that in the coaching fraternity coaches don’t talk to GMs while their friends are employed.
And I agree, guys are obviously setting their starting negotiating position as high as possible. I also read where Odom is expecting to get paid a contract that averages 10M a year. He’ll be 30 in Nov and having a habit of disappearing in games, I’m not sure he gets that. He’s not getting it from the Lakers I think. Not if they’re looking to pay ~7-8M for Ariza (and his agent says he’s looking for 8-9M). Odom may have to take a 35M/4. (Tha’s a pisser, huh?) I don’t think teams sign him for 5 years at this point in his career. And if I’m paying a guy 8M, don’t I sign Ariza first since he’s 22? (not assuming these guys are interchangeable, just that Ariza gives you more flex to sign someone else or team chemistry from a position standpoint).
As for Jod meeting with BG & CV, I think it an love thing in being there first. You throw out a number, or get these guys together in the room and explain they’re a foundation and get them to take a bit less and explain where the rest of the money is going to be spent and perhaps a bit of who we might move for whom. Worst case, they appreciate the attention, decline your offer but take your phone number because you tell them before they sign somewhere else, give us a call. It’s a stroking session and/or Jod has another plan and is doing this to divert attention.
I mean, let’s face it. Who is going to sign a contract 1 minute past midnight on the first day of FA on the first call? No one. But’s it’s an ego thing to get your first call from Team X and from the player’s advantage, you can tell callers 2+, I already recv’d a call from Team X which psychologically puts a thought into callers 2+, oh shit, we weren’t first.
Finally, I think we all owe Memphis a thank you for getting D. Miles his 10 games. Can you imagine Port with another 9M this summer to play with?
Higgins,
After seeing how he abused Detroit’s front line, I’d put him as a 2nd unit center…
Either that, or we put Austin Daye on Ilgauskus and hope for the best?
If Dumars signs Ben Gordon and Villanueva then we’ll know that his love of tweeners has gotten out of hand.
Who doesn’t love a tween? Hey, what is on the Disney Channel right now?
Adios, amigo Oberto.
The Pistons did waive Fabricio Oberto on Tuesday, which will save them about $1.7 million. His contract was worth $3.5 million this season, but only $1.8 million of it was guaranteed.
(mlive)
Thank god, brgulker. I was poring over all the regular sites looking for that… Thought we somehow got stuck with Beef Jerky Boy.
Anyone talking about how genius it is that Dumars is bringing in two UConn guys on the same day? How can that hurt the pitch? And after he fired to coach to keep Rip happy? Seriously, doesn’t the UConn comraderie count for something?
I think Dumars might even trade Tay for Thabeet and hire Jim Calhoun to coach the UConn Pistons…
If we get Khalid El-Amin, then I’ll know some shit’s up.
Well, Powe with a torn ACL won’t be back until at least Jan. He tore it in the playoffs (May I think) and had surgery in Jun. He’d be a great locker room guy and serviceable.
As for the trade: Chi has Miller (last year of contract), Noah (who will play ahead of TT most nites because of his motor), Aaron Gray (a 7′ stiff who did show some improvement last year), 1st round picks this year James Johnson & Taj Gibson who are both 4’s though Gibson was training with Don McLean here in Cali and his goal was to sell himself as being able to guard big 3’s laterally.
Miller, TT, Noah, Gray, Johnson, Gibson which are 6 guys for 2 spots. Who does Chi have at the 2? Salmons? Deng? Hinrich? They can then move Hinrich to Port for Outlaw/Blake/Batum/??. They solve their backup PG and SF with that trade. I think Rip is a better spot up shooter than Salmons who creates more off the dribble, but Rose will have the ball most of the time. They have to extend (I think) both Noah and TT the same year and a year later extend Rose. Plus Deng’s got a monster contract already, was hurt last year so he can’t be moved right now unless someone is bettng on ceiling. TT & Noah play the same position so do you play it out and sign one? What if they both blow up? And if you’ve got Deng, BG & Rose, scoring isn’t going to be a problem. You’d probably take Noah before TT because of that and D.
And as for a Amare’ trade, does Noah play the 5 then? They need his hustle and D out there if Amare’s at the 4. I could perhaps see Miller/TT to Phx for Amare since Miller’s contract comes of the books. But that leaves Noah and Gray at the 5 as I don’t think Phx takes Miller/Deng or Deng/TT because of that contract.
Perhaps Chicago trades TT because they know he’ll ask for max money…
Chicago’s in an odd spot.. a lot of young guys who don’t make a lot, so they can’t just trade those guys for talented guys that make a shit-ton of money…
I’d trade Rip and Tay to Chicago for Deng, TT and BG
That would really piss Your Friendly Bulls Blogger off
MB, aside from the pf log jam that chi has now, tt was the #4 pick in 06′(traded for the #2) and is 22 years old. His value in the league is well above rips. He’s also up for a new contract 1 year b4 noah and starts along with noah. I think they could package hinrich/tt and get just about who ever they wanted, esp. amare. But i don’t think he’s available to us in any scenario.
And stein has a lot to say about us, too
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=Chatter-090701
I can see that trade Boney and I agree Chi is in a tough spot. I just don’t like Deng’s contract. And if we’re talking about guarding the Brons/PP’s of the world, I really don’t Deng’s contract. And we’ve got (according to Jod) our future 3 in Daye.
Wait a minute…I brought up Channing Frye a couple months back and everyone on here ripped me a new one, and now when it comes down to the free agent period, someone brings him up and all of a sudden it’s a pretty decent idea. WTF. Anyways…
I have been banging the Gordon drum for quite some time now, I think he would be a great addition to our team IF, and only IF, we have a deal in place for RIP. I don’t want both of them on this team because that is a luxury we can’t afford seeing as how our front line is so thin.
I know I’m in the minority on this but I like Villanueva as well. I liked him even before we knew Boozer was unattainable. Hell, I was talking about him around the same time I was talking about Frye a couple months back. The man can put the ball in the bucket and he is young and big. He may be more of a shooter but he DOES have a low-post game. He is like Sheed only he wouldn’t be our center, so I wouldn’t be as upset. If we paired him with a solid center(gortat, kaman, etc.) I think he would thrive. Just my “epinion” though.
As a side note, I have heard that Houston is prepared to offer Gortat their full MLE and that the Mavs, Pacers, and Knicks have been added to the pursuit of the free agent big man. I like him, but I don’t want to get into a bidding war for him. I think we need to trade Tay for Kaman and Thornton before someone else does a trade with the clips.
David Lee is reportedly supposed to signing an offer sheet with the grizz or thunder, but I seen that the Knicks have offered him 4 years/$32 mil. That seems like the right kinda deal. I wouldn’t mind trading for that.
@ Craig: I thought Noah & TT were the same year. Well, that certainly fucks things up a bit. But I still think they extend Noah before TT. And before they trade Hinrich/TT for Amare’, they’re going to want a committement from Amare’. Do they get it with him knowing Rose is the alpha dog? As for Phx, they do that trade if they don’t get Nash extended because of Hinrich. But if Nash is there this year, Hinrich money is dead weight though they do get a very similar player in TT commpared to Amare for Nash.
Gortat is well worth MLE money, especially for us. Why we wouldn’t sign him for that is baffling.
KronJ: Lee turned that down and is looking for 50M/5. So that will be an interesting offer sheet. I think the loser of the sheet war (Mem/OKC) then turns around and does an offer sheet to Millsap.
An interesting question - taking salary into account: Who do we want more CV or Frye? I vote Frye because of low post moves/D and probably a cheaper contract.
In fact, he’s been kinda lost and I think would come cheaper to the first team to show him substantial love. Paricularly since he’s been a lost fellow in Port the last couple of years.
If the jazz are willing to take a toaster for Boozer, I say we send them a toaster. If it works out, we resign him, if not, we go into next off season with good cap space, again. I’d rather do that then lock up millsap/gortat/CV/Lee to a long term for too much $$. And if Gortat is going to get over 10 mil, i think Side show is the next guy on the list.
That’s what I have been saying butters. I had all sorts of plans for the Pistons, just about every day something different it seemed, and I know I had one where we were signing Frye 5 years/$20 mil, starting at only $3 mil per. I think he would like the financial security and he would gradually make more than he is making now. The only knock on from what I have seen on Portland’s message boards is apparently he has been forgotten because they thought he was soft, but i remember him looking like a future stud when he was a rookie in NY.
But it’s not out of the realm of possibility of signing both Frye and Villanueva for about $10 mil to start.
Kron, is there anyway we can get frye, tay, daye, and two other skinny players with similar names on our team? Yes we can!
Please Craig, and anyone else with the same ill intentions, please stop talking about Varehoe!!! Honestly, him playing against us the last few years killed it for me, because otherwise I would think he is a perfect Piston because the guy flat out hustles. But watching him play against us the last few years in fucking cleveland has made me sick to my stomach just thinking about adding him to our team. I don’t mind the flopping so much because we have one of the biggest floppers around right now in RIP, and as much as i hate to say it, it has become a part of the game. I strongly, with a passion, HATE Varehoe! I think he needs to get shot in the face…maybe he should hang out with Pierce.
I woke up at the crack of noon expecting us to have a frontline of Boozer, Memo, CV, and Gortat with a backline of BG, Rip, and Ricky Rubio. Instead I see a lot of headlines without the word “Pistons sign” in them. What gives? When does Joe spend his money? I thought the madness started twelve hours ago.
Frye is 6′11″, 245…that’s hardly skinny, but ya i see what ur gettin at.
But, Kron, he would be OUR annoying flopper!
Let’s just re-sign Iverson. Fuck it.
KronJ: Yeah, I’d roll with that. And for the life of me, I can’t figure out how BG thinks he’s getting 10M. That makes absolutely no sense if Rip is here making 11M. We’d be paying Kobe money at the 2 and getting 2/3 of Kobe.
And the reason the Bad Boys worked so well with Isiah, Rip & Vinny is that Vinny at that time wasn’t considered a starting caliber guard by alot of teams. He was the Microwave. In this scenario, we’ve got 3 guards all considered by the rest of the league to be starting caliber.
And if we’re looking at paying Charlie V ~7-8M, does he take that over Clev’s MLE at ~5.5-5.8? Perhaps at 8M but not at 7 since it’d be ~6M over 5 years, everything being equal . . except he has a chance to play for a ring right away in Clev and he’d do what he would like to do and stretch defenses from the arc because of Shaq down low. And if Bron doesn’t leave, he’s playing for a ring almost every year.
And as for the all UConn team, I also hear Donyell Marshall is available.
If the Yahoo! reports are true, we’ll be making offers to BG and CV today, and it will probably eat most of our cap space.
After all the possibilities we’ve discussed here for months,
This: Rodney Stuckey(notes), Gordon, Hamilton, CV, Tayshaun Prince(notes), Jason Maxiell(notes), Aaron Afflalo. Maybe Austin Daye(notes). That’s a rotation worth singing about? The Pistons figure to have a small amount of cap space next summer, even if Hamilton stays on board and with the new contracts, but not nearly enough to try and seduce Chris Bosh(notes), Dwyane Wade(notes), or LeBron James(notes).
Is what we get?
And the reason the Bad Boys worked so well with Isiah, Rip & Vinny is that Vinny at that time wasn’t considered a starting caliber guard by alot of teams. He was the Microwave. In this scenario, we’ve got 3 guards all considered by the rest of the league to be starting caliber.
I doubt that the rest of the league considers Stuckey to be a starter (at least right now). Heck, I’m a ’stons fan, and I’m not sure he’s a starter right now.
Dumars must not only look at spending this money as replacing what he lost in Billups, but potentially ‘Sheed and ‘Dyess Raw.
I think we will make offers to BG and CV but I don’t think it will eat most of our cap space. Either their contracts will be friendly enough that we can sign another player as well or we will let them walk, because if there is one thing we all should know about Joe, is that he doesn’t overpay for players(for the most part, I know Nazr Mohammed was a bit of a reach but he’s the only one that comes to mind when it comes to giving out contract money).
Yeah, I don’t see how that lineup looks good. No size obviously, even if Trent Plastaid makes the team this year. Jod better have a trade already done. And if we’re serious about CV, we aren’t in the Bosh / Amare sweepstakes given those two guys also play the 4. Unless you move CV to the 3 and trade Tay/Rip for someone . . Amare? Bosh?
And I think the Suns would like to move Richardson, but he might be servicable at the 3 some nites. But if I’m Kerr, how do I not take a Rip/Tay for Amare if I’m trading Amare? Since Curry isn’t going to be in a deal involving GS as of right now. Of course, if Hill resigns with Phx, they’d have Rip/Rich/Hill/Tay for the 2 & 3 spots.
And if I’m Avery, do I take this job with that roster?
Why dont we try o get Paul Millsap instead of CV, he is better and we can get him for about the same price…
@ MBISC
A San Jose newspaper is saying that Amare’ isn’t all that interested in going to Golden State because he feels they’re giving up to much in Biedrins, Bellinelli and Wright (and Curry?) to be successful.
Has Villanueva twittered anything yet?
I’m not a big fan of Frye…he had that solid rookie season, but not much since. His PER since then have been 10, 14 and 10. Assuming we sign Charlie V. and have Maxiel locked up for the next 4 years I don’t think it makes sense to sign another PF in Frye, especially when our 3 picks this year were 3/4 hybrids.
@ TDP: Well, Rip/Tay for Amare?
Does Kerr say no? I think he can’t. Amare doesn’t get an extension this summer and I think there’s no way he resigns with Phx given all that’s happened in the last week. Particularly if Nash doesn’t resign. Amare’s at the 4, Clark at the 3, Admundsen at the 5??, JRich at the 2 and Driagzki (sp) at the 1. That’s incredibly inefficient and will lead the league in lowest offensive output.
@CV31 has been quiet on Twitter.
I think we will make offers to BG and CV but I don’t think it will eat most of our cap space.
How does it not eat most of our cap space?
Best case scenario, we get CV31 for 6-7 mil. to start, and we get Gordon for 8-9mil. to start. That’s 14-16 mil accounted for.
That’s MOST of our cap space, no matter how you define the term.
And we’re still left with gaping holes in the frontcourt. Crazy.
When Charlie Villanueva turns the ball over, is it called hairless carelessness?
Jod, why hast thou forsaken me?
TDP: boooo.
…
…
Ok. +1
Frye’s and Villanueva’s most recent two seasons, courtesy of Basketball Reference’s wonderful Player Comparison Finder:
Year Age G MP PER TS% eFG% 3P% 3PA/36 ORB% DRB% TRB%
Frye 07-08 24 78 1342 14.8 .529 .491 .300 0.3 9.4 21.6 15.5
Frye 08-09 25 63 746 10.0 .465 .444 .333 1.6 6.7 16.7 11.6
Vil. 07-08 23 76 1829 15.0 .502 .297 .469 3.6 8.9 21.5 15.0
Vil. 08-09 24 78 2095 18.6 .529 .488 .345 4.4 8.3 21.6 14.7
Year AST% STL% BLK% TOV% TOV/36 USG% PF/36
Frye 07-08 7.4 1.2 1.6 9.9 1.5 19.6 5.6
Frye 08-09 5.3 1.3 1.7 9.3 1.4 19.7 5.1
Vil. 07-08 7.5 0.9 1.5 10.7 2.1 24.3 3.4
Vil. 08-09 12.4 1.2 2.2 10.4 2.4 28.5 4.4
I chose two years to note any improvement. Frye regressed last year, which may be due to injuries; I’m not sure. Villanueva shoots a lot, especially from downtown. Villanueva also improved fairly significantly across the board, other than turnovers, fouls, and offensive rebounds.
Does CV have any post-up game? I’m sorry, but I just don’t know his game that well. I know he has a condition which gives forensic detectives nightmares, but I don’t know if he has a post-up game.
TrueHoop on the Pistons:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-42-2/The-Genius-of-the-Allen-Iverson-Trade–Gone.html
So, ironically, he’s not all that hairlessly careless.
why not RIP and Maxi for Amare? If we have to we can throw in a future first or second rounder. We won’t need the pick since we are establishing a young team. Then we could trade Tay for Kaman and Thornton and not have to worry about entering the bidding war for Gortat. If we trade for Amare we don’t have to sign charlie v, so we could use that money on other FA’s. Perhaps our team could look like this(SDJ stands for Summers/Daye/Jerebko):
Stuckey/MFWB
Gordon($9 mil)/Afflalo/Washington
Thornton/Marvin Williams($7 mil)/SDJ
Amare/Frye($3 mil)/SDJ
Kaman/Kwame
That would be our projected $19 mil in cap space and that team looks pretty damn good. IfAmare walks we got a pretty good rental for a year and alot of money off the books next year along with Kwame’s and Sharpe’s. I’m just throwing stuff out there…
Man, I really like Joe D but I hope this is posturing because it doesn’t make any sense. If we come away with Ben Gordon and Charlie V we had better be trading Rip for someone like Tyson Chandler or David Lee because on the surface this is a really bad ideal.
Here’s the part that I don’t get though. Even if we do trade Rip do we really need Ben Gordon? We still have Stuckey and Bynum and Washington and maybe even Daye though I doubt he could guard anyone. I’m not saying that any of those players are as good as Gordon or Hamilton but if you lock up our capspace with these two we have the potential to be mediocre for years. None of our holes would be addressed in the front court and we wouldn’t have any dominating players that demand double teams or are game changers.
After the draft I consoled myself with the ideal that we still had free agency to look forward to but now free agency has the potential to be more of a bummer than the draft.
Well, I can’t believe Jod is talking to BG and how does he answer the question “Am I going to start?” He can start in Chi if wants to I believe.
What does Jod say to a question like that? Besides the usual “competition, training camp, may the best man win, you’ll make each other better” bullshit. Rip chose to be sixth man last year to help the team. Does he think putting BG in place of him helps the team?
Sign CV & BG. Trade CV & Rip to Toronto for Bosh. They get a 4 (replacing bosh) and a 2 (which they need) and Rip’s better than Anthony Parker and they’s still have Marion (assuming he resigns). Then turn around and trade Tay to Clips for Kaman/Thorton.
Stuck/MFWB
BG/AA
Thorton/Daye/Sharpe
Bosh/Max/Summers/The Swede
Kaman/Kwame
I could live with that lineup and regardless of substitution patterns, that’s a very offensive generating lineup. . . kwame excepted.
@ shawnindc
Who else is there sign?
I’m just glad our name isn’t in on the Gortat sweepstakes. He stinks of Jerome James to me.
KronJ: Throw as much shit out there as possible. After firing Curry, perhaps Jod does read the DBB and he’ll make a deal. The way this looks, we’ll have draft picks between 12-16 for each of the next several years.
And given the height of the conf finalists this year and foreseeable future, we’re going to get killed.
Butters, I like the effort but since we are both throwing hypotheticals out there, I like my team better.
Utah is screwed. They gotta trade somebody.
“That leaves Utah with a base salary of $74.7 million” (without Milsap). Luxury tax will be around 69 million.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/update-utah-teams-with-cap-concerns/
Why wouldn’t Phx entertain the thought of RIP and Maxi for Amare? RIP is by far a better SG than anyone they got and Maxi is a nice young, athletic PF that could step right in in Amare’s place. They have to know that they WILL lose him after this year so why not get something for him. GS won’t budge on Curry so they might as well listen to other offers available to them. I think “Jod”, which seems to be the new nick, should get on the phone right now and try to get this guy. Or Al Jefferson if Minny is still listening to offers.
@Brgulker - but only for one year. Maybe they’ll ride it out for the year, pay the tax, and have Boozer come off the books next year.
Assuming they sign Milsap to a ~10 mil. contract, that’s about 20 mil. in luxury tax to pay, which is nothing to sneeze at.
Why NOT trade Boozer and get something for him and put yourself closer to the luxury tax line if you can?
boozer, okur, and korver come off the books next year
brgulkin’ - the only reason I think you might be right is that Utah will not contend as is this year. So they might make a move. But Kronik’s right - a lot of $ comes off their books in the summer of Lebron, so if I had to guess, I’d say they pay the tax and then they’ll be big players next year. Which we won’t be, apparently.
Yes, that’s true. But is Utah willing to spend 100 million this year on the same exact roster they had last year? Why would they?
Always on the gulk, that guy.
Wouldn’t they rather Boozer come off this year? If they supposedly wanted to let him walk, why wouldn’t they dump him for a draft pick and save the money? I don’t get it.
@RobG: Will they be FA players next year? If they’re like 10+ million over the tax (after signing Milsap), they could lose 20+ million and still be over the cap.
Boozer is not that bad that they would dump him for a draft pick, colin…
brgulker: it’s only 10M they would give Millsap + the 3M they’re over now so 13M lux tax. Rality is Millsap’s 1st yr equivalent salary would be 20M.
KronJ: Yeah, I don’t know why Phx doesn’t do that trade. The only hangup is JRich’s contract and Rips. Who is the 5 right now in Phx? Robin Lopez? Admundsen? If they’re looking at the Rip/Max deal, do they now want Tay since he’ll get more points than Max? that’s a very offensively challenged front line with Lopez/Admunden/Max. I don’t know if you could move JRich to the 3.
If we’ve got a deal with Clips for Kaman, we could replace Max with Kwame and it gives Phx a legit 5. Of course at some point one of Nash’s no-look passes is going to go thru Kwame’s hands and break his nose. With Kwame & Lopez up front, you’d be able to match big front lines.
Can you imagine if someone had approached Joe Dumars last October and said, “Joe. You’ve got a team that’s been to six straight conference finals. You won a championship in 2004. Last season you were a handful of plays (and an injury to Chauncey Billups) away from yet another Finals. Congratulations.
“I have a proposal for you. How about you give me Chauncey Billups, Rasheed Wallace, and Antonio McDyess. In exchange I will give you Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva. Oh, and another part of this deal is that you will only get those two guys next season. This season you will have to throw right down the crapper, wasting a year of the primes of your remaining guys and wasting a year of your fans’ lives.”
Do you think Joe Dumars would have made that trade? Because it looks like that’s exactly what is about to happen.
It’s time Joe got fired. Seriously.
@MB
brgulker: it’s only 10M they would give Millsap + the 3M they’re over now so 13M lux tax. Rality is Millsap’s 1st yr equivalent salary would be 20M.
That’s what I’m sayin’. Why in the hell would they do that? Why would they go 13 mil. over the cap, with the net result being almost 100 mil. in payroll, for a roster that’s the exact same as last year?
That makes zero sense.
That’s a very ugly couple of paragraphs you just put together dude. Scary too.
Just to be clear…..Joe hasn’t actually signed CV or BG. I know I’d be pissed If I came into work and my boss told me I was fired, because some guy named Wojo predicted that I was gonna fuck up next week.
True enough, Colin. If you want to be all conservative about it, you can hold off on the firing until the players are signed. I would have fired him after the Billups trade.
Rob G, plus, that’s a team that lost in the first round. It’s not like the Lakers who are thinking of going deep into the pockets to keep together a team that won it all.
I think the best play is to get Boozer and Fesenko from Utah for cheap.
Here is the plan: 1. sign Ben Gordon 2. Trade Rip to Utah for Boozer (he’s 2mil more but we’re under the cap) 3. Sign Villanueava, and Leon Powe (he’s injured so we might get him cheap). That would be Stuckey, Gordon, Tay, Boozer and CV. A little small but very young and atheletic. If Boozer works…great. If not, we cut him loose and still have cash for Bosh next year.
brgulker: Well, they did play the Lakers reasonably well, and Okur was injured for 3 of thsoe games.
Next season: Okur 9M, Boozer 13M & korver 5M come off = 26M - 13M over lux tax (assuming they sign Millsap to 10M) = 13M of free money next summer.
Bill H: I see your point. But we weren’t better than the cavs or Orl with CB IMHO. And if 08 was any indication, we weren’t better than the Celts either (since we didn’t know KG would get hurt). I think as some point your analogy could be used at any point in time, whether this past season or in each of the next 2 regarding sheed/dyess leaving and what we’d be able to get in return. But I still don’t think we’d have a chip in any of those 3 seasons.
And I gotta think that after this season, Jod can’t go to Rip and ask him to go to the bench and if Curry was honest about not talking to Rip until the roster shakes out, there’s gotta be a trade in there somewhere.
Utah also has harpring coming off the books next summer. I’ve read, and it makes sense, that utah would rather swallow some hefty taxes this year then lose both millsap and boozer in consecutive years. Also stands to reason that they would give boozer away ala nuggs/camby to avoid that scenario.
Maybe Dumars doesn’t necessarily think he’s keeping CV long-term… or anyone. There is obviously interest in Gordon and CV, so if we sign them to reasonable contracts and next year is a bust, Dumars is still loaded with very tradeable contracts. We’d all like to see him grab Bosh somehow, but if the CV/Gordon signings really happen we’d still have great assets to make a big midseason trade (or an S and T in the next offseason).
Not really new news, I guess, but oh well:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4300061&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines
MB in SC, I agree with you that some changes probably had to be made to the team. But jettisoning the team’s best player for cap space in an offseason with generally crappy free agents appears to have been a horrible strategy to make those changes. It would have been much better to improve the team through focused trades for real talent that kept the team’s essential components (of whom Chauncey was clearly the most indispensable) in place. Rasheed would have been an excellent trade chip last year.
As Colin suggests, let’s wait and see how it all plays out. Joe may yet get lucky and land somebody really worthwhile. But the signs right now are decidedly not good.
I gotta agree with you again Mr. Higgins, great and freaky post.
I’ve done a little statistical digging, but I really just can’t understand the logic of making Ben Gordon and Charlie V our big additions. Together they could potentially cripple our team defense, and IMHO they are both highly overrated as offensive players.
Honestly, what is the upside of this line-up?:
Stuck
Gordon
Tay
Charlie V
? (Kaman? Kwame?)
Let’s imagine Stuckey transforms into Deron Williams, I still don’t see this as a contending core.
Just from the apparent fact that we’re chasing Gordon the most heavily of any current free agent, I think it’s safe to say we’re approaching this off-season in exactly the opposite way that we should.
At the NBA level, undersized, scoring guards are probably the most abundant of any particular player type. Seriously how much better is Ben Gordon than Von Wafer or a million other guys. Take a look at this player comparison, look at the per/36 stats, and can anyone honestly say that Ben Gordon is worth 10 million dollars more per year than Von Wafer?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=gordobe01&y1=2009&p2=wafervo01&y2=2009
Also, not only is spending big money on Ben Gordon inefficient, as there are a number of available players who can approximate his impact who can be signed for a fraction of the cost, but HE DOESN’t EVEN FIT A NEED!
I could swallow signing Gordon if we already had a strong defensive frontcourt and we just needed some perimeter scorers, but perimeter scorers are the only thing we do have! It makes no damn sense…
@Bill Higgins:
I’m giving Jod until the trade deadline to show me this master plan of his. If it doesn’t produce wins, I’ll join your chorus in a heartbeat.
it makes sense, that utah would rather swallow some hefty taxes this year then lose both millsap and boozer in consecutive years.
it makes sense, that utah would rather swallow some hefty taxes this year then lose both millsap and boozer in consecutive years.
That’s the point. If they dumped Boozer, they could sign Milsap with less luxury tax. Also, my bad on the double post.
@craig and everyone else. Disregard my previous posts. I’m an idiot. I agree with what you said, I just can’t read.
@Bill H: I agree. But it always takes two to tango. If I’ve got a piece or two the only reason I trade it away for Sheed is because I’m bumping the tax line (sheed’s contract expired) or I suddenly came into another player that is redundant or better option. Both scenarios not under Jod’s control.
Plus, whoever we’d be trading Sheed for, would we not need a similar talent in return to replace him? I do agree that had we just let Sheed expire this year we’d have ~13M for a run at Lee or Millsap, but that would be overpaying. Or 7M gortat and 6M Charlie. But do signing those two under those circumstances make us better than we wuld be with Sheed?
And I’d like to wait to see with Denver if they are going to continually be this good effort wise or did they catch a bit of lightning.
I completely agree with:
As Colin suggests, let’s wait and see how it all plays out. Joe may yet get lucky and land somebody really worthwhile. But the signs right now are decidedly not good.
No one is going to trade for Rip Hamilton’s contract given that it’s pretty clear that the Pistons of old were better as a team than as individuals. I’d say the chances are better that Joe D. is looking to go smaller with Stuckey, Gordon, Rip, CV, Brown and trade Tayshaun who in my mind is a much more movable player/contract.
Prince would also have a higher value/return than Rip currently does and like people have said, Rip is an ironman and incredibly consistent. He’s a piece that can move from Option 1 to Option 3 or even 4 on your starting team and still provide you with 13-16 points per game.
The fact that Joe D. has drafted 4 small forwards in 2 years plus kept Herrmann on the roster indicates that he’s hoping to develop a new stronger, more explosive small forward, maybe even one that could d up lebron AND produce offensively.
@MBSC: I mostly agree with you, but If we had just let Sheed expire (and not traded CB) we wouldn’t have had any cap space. We were already well over the cap.
@Gabe:
The only value Gordon has over a player like Wafer and others is that he’s a brand– a personality in the eyes of fans that will score big when given the attempts and fill seats as a result.
Up through last year, I spent all of Ben Gordon’s career living in Chicago, and that guy was everywhere– billboards, busses, tv ads, you name it. He was the face of that franchise, even if he wasn’t their best player. While this doesn’t justify Dumars signing him, it does explain a bit about the extra millions that pad Gordon’s contract beyond his production.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that winning fills seats moreso than personalities. I don’t want Gordon on this team because, like you, I recognize that he does NOT fill a need on our roster as is currently constructed. And Villanueva? Fuck no…
If we go into training camp with this roster:
Stuckey/Gordon
Hamilton/Gordon
Prince
Villanueva
Brown
We will lose more games than we did last year. We’ll have greater defensive problems, no rebounding (miss you, dyess), and less efficient scoring. Our team wide FG% will drop, our competitor’s FG/possession will go up, we’ll have a logjam at the 2 that might force out Rip when there is no reason he should leave. WTF.
Gabe, yes. I think it is time for a story. A nautical story.
Joe Dumars is the captain of the S.S. Pistons. The S.S. Pistons has the one of the biggest sails in the world (it is a sailboat, you see), and therefore can move faster than nearly any other ship in the world. It’s a world-class sail. However, the S.S. Pistons’ hull has over the course of many years started to wear down a little bit. Last year the S.S. Pistons hit Iceberg LeBron and sprung a bad leak in the hull. It is now at port, slowly sinking in the harbor, and Captain Dumars has a thousand gold doubloons to spend to patch it up and get it shipshape again.
Today, Captain Dumars is going to the sail shop to spend nearly all his doubloons on a second large sail for the S.S. Pistons. This sail is so large that he may have to take down the sail the S.S. Pistons currently has; in fact, the new sail actually may be inferior to the old one, because it is more likely to crack if a bad storm hits. (You might say it has almost *no defense* against storms.) With his remaining handful of Doubloons Captain Dumars has purchased a pack of gum with which he hopes to plug the holes in the hull.
Meanwhile, as Captain Dumars is making his purchases, the S.S. Pistons is halfway sunk and getting worse.
How do you explain the actions of Captain Dumars? Should he be court-martialed?
Herrmann is not on the roster.
The only reason i can see Jod talking up Gordon is if he has a future trade in place for Rip. That’s it. No way he didn’t learn last season from having ai and rip. I would be happy if the chips fell and we sign gordon, then ship rip for kamen/chandler/dalembert/fpcb, leaving us room for another signing after.
This roller coaster is getting crazier by the minute…
my biggest fears are coming true
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/07/01/gordon.pistons.meet.ap/index.html
MB, with all the talk at the trade deadline about the pressures on GMs to cut salaries, I imagine that Dumars could have found a ready taker for Rasheed and his expiring deal.
The essential problem with dumping salary and trying to build from under the cap is that when you do that you can basically only spend to the cap and not beyond it. That’s why we’re shedding many millions in salaries between Iverson and Sheed and Dyess yet only have a fraction of that to give to free agents this offseason.
Had we traded Sheed for a useful player whom we actually saw as part of the team in the long term, we could have had a much higher bar for total salaries on the team - and we still would have avoided the luxury tax, which generally is the only thing teams really want to avoid.
Dumars’s get-under-the-cap strategy means that the total amount of money he has available for team salaries is like ten or twenty million less than it would have been otherwise. Just a dumb way to try to rebuild.
There’s a reason why literally no GM in history has built a championship team through free agency after a salary dump.
@Mike Payne
The only value Gordon has over a player like Wafer and others is that he’s a brand– a personality in the eyes of fans that will score big when given the attempts and fill seats as a result.
Up through last year, I spent all of Ben Gordon’s career living in Chicago, and that guy was everywhere– billboards, busses, tv ads, you name it. He was the face of that franchise, even if he wasn’t their best player.
What the hell are you talking about?
Colin: I understand (I think).
But the salary cap is ~59M (which we’d be over) but the lux cap is 71M. Meaning we’d have roughly 12M (71-59) to sign someone and not get penalized.
As said before, the tax cap it will be smaller. Not that many teams are scheduled to go over, meaning the dollars available to redistribute to those not going over will be smaller.
Say your payroll is 72M. Pay 1M in lux tax. In years past (everything be equal) that 1M + the anticipated 3M you would have recieved back by not exceeding the lux tax meant an effective tax of 4M. This year, I think the payout to each team is to be about 500K. Meaning an effective tax rate of only 1.5M on a payroll of 72M. At least from what I’ve read and understand.
MB, I’m pretty sure that’s not how it works. If you’re over the cap you’re only allowed to spend the mid-level exception on free agents each offseason. You can’t just spend up to the luxury-tax threshold.
If you’re under the cap, you can spend up to the cap and that’s it. That’s why the Pistons now have so many fewer dollars in total that they can give to player salaries, which is why they’ll have so much less talent on the roster next season.
@ MP
Berri, et al proved this in Wages of Wins, actually:
Personally, I’m of the opinion that winning fills seats moreso than personalities.
@ Bill
<i.Dumars’s get-under-the-cap strategy means that the total amount of money he has available for team salaries is like ten or twenty million less than it would have been otherwise. Just a dumb way to try to rebuild.
There’s a reason why literally no GM in history has built a championship team through free agency after a salary dump.
I spent some time reading up on the salary cap after the Playoffs. I confess I really didn’t have a good understanding of it until then. Not that I’m an expert now, but I at least get the important concepts of it.
Bill H., I’ve argued with you in the past, but perhaps you are right after all.
=============================
One curious thing that I don’t think we’ve talked about yet:
What if we were to sign BG or CV and then trade them?
Would there by anu suitors for either of those guys via trade that couldn’t have gotten them via FA?
What about CV to NO for Chandler? (as a radom example).
Do we think Jod is thinking like that?
@your friendly bulls blogger:
What the hell are you talking about?
Three years ago, when I used to live in Chicago and work downtown, I used to see Gordon on the sides of busses– I’d see him on Billboards promoting Bulls games, he’d be the only player to address fans before opening night, etc. When the bulls under Skiles were getting good, he appeared to be the most marketed player on their squad.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2006.html
Who on that roster was more marketable than Gordon? For the 8 years I lived in Chicago, at first I saw Eddy Curry on busses, then Tyson Chandler, then Ben Gordon.
What the hell are you talking about?
Oh, and be nice, princess. You’re usually polite when you comment here. Need a hug?
brgulker, I thought I’d read that you can’t sign a free agent who wasn’t on your team before and then trade him right away. There’s a period of at least a few months before you’re allowed to do that. Not totally sure about the rule, but pretty sure that’s the case.
Bill H: do we not retain the freedom of their money for both AI & Sheed’s contract since they were our players? And every team from last summer has been trying to 1. get as far under the lux cap and as far under the cap for 2010. 2. see #1. 3. Get under the lux tax in 2009.
We’d still have to trade sheed for someone usuable to us to a team for who that person wasn’t usuable. There are very, very few guys like that because typically usuable on one team means usuable virtually across the league. Unless you’re on a very bad team, your minutes should probably be minutes on most teams, exlc’g player redundancy.
I also think Jod wanted Boozer and in part made the trade because he anticipated Boozer opting out. Gordon was going to be a UFA regardless. We need to improve thru trades are owner’s mantra. Problem is, there’s 29 other owners who have the same mantra and only occassionaly do both owners meet their goal in any one single trade.
I mean, who’e going to dump on us a talented young PF in exchange for Sheed? Or even dump two guys we could use to replace Sheed? the only reason they do that is because they’re over the lux tax. And if someone is that promising to us, are they not that promising to proposed trading partner?
@BRG, this has come up before, maybe last off-season. You can’t sign a free agent and immediately trade him. I’m not sure what the waiting period is, maybe 1/4 or 1/2 season or something, but you can’t immediately sign a guy and then trade him if that’s what you’re suggesting. I guess that rule was put in to save the integrity and intent of free agency because if you sign with the Lakers and get immediately dealt to the Clippers, then you just got played. If you wanted to be with the Clips, you would have signed with them. So maybe the players associated fought to have this rule in or something. Now of course a team can do a sign and trade with their own free agents. I’m referring to signing someone elses free agents.
MBinSoCal,
CV was already a Raptor. If they liked him, they’d still have him.
If the team signs Villenueva for 4 or 5 years, I can’t see them trading him next offseason for Bosh no matter how funky or hard your jock gets at the thought of Bosh being a Piston…
Of course, EVERYONE loves Chris Bosh.
I don’t see this “Chris Bosh or bust” mentality 99% of you guys have.
@MikePayne,
Ben Gordon is the face of the franchise in Chicago? suuuuuuuuuuuure
Bill H: I stand corrected.
Also, I don’t think a quick trade turnaround for BG/VC is even a remote possibility regarding rules. Can you imagine future FAs sitting down with Jod and having that in the back of their mind? Nobody would visit.
I don’t know what the time span is because there’s other variables involved. Besides, how would SnT get done? It probably has to do with the guy being your guy to start with.
Thanks for pointing that out. I know there’s a waiting period, and I wasn’t clear in my opening ask.
I was thinking more in terms of mid-season as the trade deadline approaches.
but that might be just impossible to predict right now.
MB, the idea would be to take advantage opportunistically of some poor team with a suffocating need to dump salaries because its arena is empty every night and it’s hemorrhaging money. In that scenario the desperate team should be willing to sacrifice real value in exchange for an expiring deal, because more than winning it just wants to lower its salary base.
Most owners, even the good ones, want to avoid the luxury tax. Others who are really having trouble making money have shown a desire to get even well below that. I’m talking about the Clippers and Grizzlies of the world, whose owners are notorious cheapskates and care little about winning.
Near the trade deadline, teams were looking desperately to acquire expiring deals, but no one was dealing any. Dumars by that point had already dumped salary and had committed to free-agency in the summer.
Boney: I don’t have a Bosh erection. I’m throwing shit against the wall, much like KronJ and Amare’. If we’re going to be armchair qb’s on monday, might as well be fantasy gm’s during free agency.
And he’s not a raptor if they’ve got Bosh. Don’t know when Moon went off, but believe it was two years ago. And I think he came cheaper. Plus there’s a new GM in Tor last year and every GM wants to be the one to make the team. I mean, if Rip is so good, he’d still be on Washington’s team.
@Boney
I’ve been living in Chicago for the past two years, and BG is most definitely the “face of the franchise,” or at least has been the last few years. He obviously started to share the honors with Rose this past season, but especially since Deng disappeared a few years ago he’s been by far the highest profile NBA guy in/for the city.
Here’s the answer:
No free agent signed in the offseason can be traded until December 15 of that year or until three months have passed (whichever comes later), a rule that prevents teams from signing free agents with the intent of using them strictly as trade fodder. For draft picks this moratorium lasts 30 days.
By the way, Wikipedia has by far the easiest-to-read introduction to the NBA’s collective bargaining agreement, which includes the salary cap, trade restrictions, all of that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Salary_Cap#Trading_and_the_Salary_Cap
Why aren’t we pursuing Artest or Hedo? Doesn’t Artest’s agent saying he’s staying in Houston no matter what just seem like a muse to get a serious offer from another team? There’s no way Houston contends without Yao. And Hedo is still attainable.
We could sign Gordon and Artest/Hedo, and trade Rip and Tay for someone like Amare.
Stuckey
Gordon
Artest/Hedo
Amare
Kwame? Maybe look for another center on the cheap, since I doubt we have a shot at Gortat. Or we could move Amare to the 5 and start Maxiell?
BH: He could have still dumped salary at the deadline. If we’re better trading sheed for someone, it doesn’t matter when the trade goes down.
And if I’m an owner not putting people in the seats, how do I trade for sheed lose an asset or two, get money from sheed’s contract and then go out and get folks who in turn will put people in the seats? Like you said, only Sterling and Hensley think that way.
And let’s not forget, most of these trades are more than making a team better. Shaq is a sign to Bron that we’ll spend money to keep you here and what they gave up was peanuts. Before Orl got into a bidding war, get VC before Hedo sweepstakes. SA was about getting more fire power should Manu go down again.
Obviously these trades made teams better, but they also put each of them over the cap (or very likely to be so filling out the rest of the roster). Isn’t that what we’re trying to avoid? And each has a legit chance in the next 2-3 years at a ring. Unless we get a Gasol/Kwame trade for Sheed, we’re not a legit chance at a ring. that’s what’s so frustrating about the last 4 years. We had a legit chance and didn’t get one. That ball pasted us by.
I agree with the last clown who commented…
Stuckey/MFWD
Hamilton/BG/AA
Artest/AA/Daye
Villenueva/Maxiell/Summers
Brown/whoever we trade Tay for/Powe
Kay Wan, I’ve read multiple times that the Pistons will never sign Artest because of the brawl at the Palace. From what I understand, the instruction comes from ownership and is immutable. So it’s not even worth talking about, even if it makes a lot of sense for the team.
Don’t worry everyone, Keith Langlois is here with a new post to let everyone know how awesome of a job Joe Dumars is doing!1!!1!
http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/truebluepistons.html
just in case any of us forgot, that is.
@ TDP
I’m not as worked up about the possibility of getting these two as I was earlier but to answer your question:
In reply to who we should get. Well, for starters we could look at Brandon Bass. I think he is a restricted free agent and has done a very good job in Dallas. Then we could look at David Lee and or Tyson Chandler in some sort of trade scenario involving Rip.
David lee is a restricted free agent so we might need to get him in a sign and trade. But Bass is a backup in Dallas so he might be a possibility.
I know many people would rather have Paul Milshap but it looks like he is close to working out a deal with Oklahoma City so I doubt he will be available.
Regardless, even though I like Charlie Villanueva I’m not sold on Ben Gordon. He would have to step up his game defensively and be willing to come off the bench for me to think that he would be serviceable.
@Boney:
@MikePayne,
Ben Gordon is the face of the franchise in Chicago? suuuuuuuuuuuure
Dude, when I lived in Chicago, when this was the roster, he was the face of that franchise. I’m not saying he was the best player, I’m saying that when I lived there, in that time period, he was the player on all of their marketing materials promoting that team. How the fuck else can I spell this out?
That’s unfortunate, since Artest is probably exactly what we’re looking for, hard-nosed defensive-minded frontcourt player who won’t disappear in the playoffs.
Why don’t we make a harder run for Hedo? I’d much rather get him at the 3 than Villanueva at the 4, making Tay and Rip more expendable as trade bait.
MB, it wouldn’t have made sense for Dumars to trade Sheed at the deadline, because by then he was under the cap and committed to remaining there.
The NBA’s CBA works in a very binary way. Teams are either under the cap or are not under the cap. Teams under the cap by more than the midlevel exception amount are allowed to spend freely on free agents until they hit the cap. Teams over the cap (or under by less than the midlevel exception amount) are allowed to spend only the midlevel.
Had Dumars traded Sheed for someone with value at the deadline, he would have put the Pistons close a place where they’d only have the midlevel to spend. Iverson’s contract would have expired without giving the Pistons any more cap space, and the Pistons would be left without Chauncey, without Iverson, without Dyess, without Sheed; they’d have whoever they got for Sheed plus maybe the midlevel to spend. Once the Iverson trade was made, the damage was done.
Had Dumars never traded Chauncey, he could have traded Sheed at the deadline, acquired a new and valuable piece, and entered the offseason with Chauncey and Dyess still on the roster and with the midlevel exception still to spend. That’s a far more attractive scenario, and much better than the situation the Pistons are in today.
Does what I’ve described make sense? It all has to do with how the CBA works.
Stupid Langlois. Look at this:
“If Gordon signs, does that mean Rip Hamilton will be traded?
“My hunch is Joe Dumars is looking forward to lining up with two 20-point scorers after watching the Pistons struggle often for offense the past few seasons. Villanueva is also coming off a season in which he scored better than 16 points a game in just 27 minutes. Both Gordon and Villanueva have shown they can put up big numbers without having to play major minutes.
“Joe D played in a backcourt that found enough minutes and shots so that what Isiah Thomas, Vinnie Johnson and he all had to offer was maximized, not just to their benefit but to the team’s, as well. With Hamilton’s ability to swing to small forward for stretches, there’s no reason it couldn’t work.”
Isn’t that EXACTLY, but EXACTLY, what he said when the Pistons got Iverson. Ooh, look, two twenty-point scorers, plus Stuckey as well! It can’t help but add up!
Isn’t the definition of insanity trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?
Ron Artest would shoot the team out of games even more than Ben Gordon.
As for signing players and trading them immediately afterwards: I would do that all the time in NBA Live. Being a GM didn’t seem so complicated.
On a side note, apparently Laimbeer has been contacted about the coaching position.
http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2009/07/coaching_search_includes_bill.html
I said it in another thread but I haven’t seen anyone even mention it here so I thought I would post it just to see what happens.
Bill H: It does. But it assumes we’re going to get equal value for sheed? Or similar. Nobody was offering that around the deadline to anyone.
So, we’ve got CB, Dyess and perhaps a slightly less equivalent piece from sheed trade. We are now a year older having again not gotten out of the ECF and we only have the MLE. Who, out there right now, would have made a difference for the MLE? Nobody that has come up in conversation is going to sign for the MLE. Gortat. No. CV. No (though he might take it in Clev). Hedo. No. Gordon. No. Lee. No. Millsap. No. Bass. Dal would match in a nano second. I’m running out of names, but the answer will always be no. The only plausible one might be Frye, but I think this board would lite up comments if we gave Frye the full MLE under those circumstances.
I will admit that I think Jod had eyes on Boozer at the time of the AI/CB trade. But them’s the breaks and we wouldn’t be able to sign/trade for him even if we had traded Sheed and picked up an asset or two. I also think some GMs don’t want to deal with Jod. He may not draft so well (Darko, White, Cleaves) but signing CB and then trading Stack for Rip works against Jod in this case because every GM says “What does Jod see that I don’t.”
Stupid Langlois. Look at this …
I just died a little inside.
Isn’t Gortat almost certainly going to get the MLE from someone? Villanueva was going to also, before Dumars suggested that he might be willing to overpay him.
Besides, with Billups and Dyess on board, in a weird Eastern Conference where an Orlando team that we always have owned wound up making it to the Finals, there’s a significant chance the Pistons could have made a run last year too. And isn’t the point to give your team a chance to win every year?
You can’t tell me the Pistons today are in a better position than they would be with Chauncey, Rip, Tay, Dyess, someone for Sheed (Chandler, or Boozer, or whoever), and an MLE to spend.
Fanhouse thinks getting Gordon and Villanueva might actually be a pretty good idea.
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/07/01/ben-gordon-charlie-villanueva-visit-detroit/#cont
Also, MB, I really doubt that other GMs are afraid of getting embarrassed by Dumars. The last guy who made a trade with him was named executive of the year. He’s the new Isiah.
@ BH: The Pistons of today might not be better, but the Pistons of tomorrow have a better chance of being better(if that makes any sense). Higgy, we all loved the pistons team as constructed, but the team has to change somehow. No one ever said it was going to be easy. Like Tom Hanks once said about baseball, “If it were easy everyone would be doing it.” Rebuilding is a process, but what Joe MAY have done by trading Chauncey is cut that process in half. We won’t know for sure until the dust settles but at the very least he gave us a running start with all the cap room. Sure we could have kept Chauncey and still had Dice and whatever subpar player we got in return for Sheed but where would that have gotten us? MAYBE another ECF, cuz we sure as hell weren’t beating Cle and Bos(Orl I will give you but that’s pretty fortunate circumstances if we drew them in the ECF - even then we lose in the finals to the lakers). But then after next year, Chauncey is 2 years older than he was when we traded him, we lose Dice for nothing(just like this year) and perhaps even stuck with a contract in the player we got for Sheed(it would depend on who we got, but maybe). We would less money to spend, and less attractive players to trade. As for not getting our full money’s worth by trading for cap space - the only money we miss out on is the MLE. If we woulda kept chauncey and dice as is, as u suggested, we would have still been over the cap, which is why with AI and Sheed’s expiring contracts did we manage to get about 17 mil under. So, the only money we miss out on is the MLE.
I think Joe made a tough but necessary move. I may be in the minority but it was definitely for the better. As someone has said above, we just need to wait until it all pans out. Remember, it was the very same guy that a lot of you are blasting that constructed the very team you are upset he is tearing apart. I’m sure he can do it again.
@Bill Higgins
We might be in a better position for this coming year and this coming year only, but absolutely not for the future. Unequivocally not. We would have the exact same squad that couldn’t get it done 5 years running, the average age of which would be around 33, and enough money to maybe snag a role player or something? How is that desirable? Yeah, it makes the little spot in your heart where 2004 resides get a little warm and fuzzy or something, but in reality that team gets bent right the fuck over by Orlando, Boston, and Cleveland.
I may be in the minority but it was definitely for the better.
I’m with you, as long as we don’t use it all up on CV and BG… WE NEED A BIG MAN!@##@%$@#$%^&
“Had Dumars never traded Chauncey, he could have traded Sheed at the deadline, acquired a new and valuable piece, and entered the offseason with Chauncey and Dyess still on the roster and with the midlevel exception still to spend. That’s a far more attractive scenario, and much better than the situation the Pistons are in today.”
Bill H…I agree we are likely better on the court next year in that scenario, but we definitely aren’t as good as Boston, Cleveland or Orlando and we have an aging roster with no cap flexibility for 2 years. Either way it’s going to be difficult to get back to being an elite team, I just think it would be even tougher if we had done your scenario.
Bill H: Agreed. But Utah wouldn’t have taken sheed. But that’s a big if going forward in this years playoffs and next year we’re a year older. Sure, at this moment in time it’s a better roster. It loses it luster everyday meaning we’re farther away everyday.
Gortat might even get more than the MLE. CV - takes MLE here and plays behind asset gotten in sheed trade, or Dyess, or Max or goes to Clev, probably starts for the MLE. Me thinks he goes to Clev. Under your scenario, we stay with that core to the bitter end and then blow it up. And start further behind than we are now. And yes, put the best team on the floor and go from there. But part of it is also having a product in the out years that the public will still buy/support.
But I agree, I have no idea what Jod is trying to do with BC/CV. I readily admit, that doesn’t make us better unless he’s got something else going.
As for playing Rip at the 3: Great idea if all our shots go in cause we aren’t going to rebound with anyone. Under that scenario, Tay has to be moved. Between Rip/BG/Tay, you can’t pay someone that amount of money to ride pine.
Bill H: Agreed. But that was a no brainer from Den side. They might have even taken Tinsley off Indy’s hand to get rid of AI. It was done by each side for totally different parameters.
Joel, I’m not in any way saying that you’d hang onto all those guys till their contracts expired. The good thing about the Pistons vets is that their contracts are staggered out into the future… and there always, always is a market for expiring contracts. So, if we needed to, we could have traded Dyess when he was due to expire next year. We could have traded Tay when he was set to expire. Traded Rip, if needed. And each year you’d have the MLE available too, and you’d add talent through the draft. You’d have the flexibility to make incremental moves to help the team with an informed assessment of where the team is at that point and what it needs.
The choice was not between (a) doing nothing and (b) trading Chauncey for Iverson and ripping out the heart of the team. That’s silly. I would advocate a third way, a measured approach to change that retains our most essential players and makes targeted moves for players we actually want, rather than dumping salary for cap space and crossing our fingers for luck in free agency.
Winners build teams through trades and the draft. Teams that rebuild through free agency are perennially rebuilding.
Let’s not forget that we still have Kwame as a trading chip. He’s a serviceable big man with a reasonable contract that’s expiring.
That may still help us, right?
1) Sign Gordon for 10mil
2) Sign Odom for 9mil
3) Trade Tayshaun to Clippers for Kaman and Thornton
4) Trade Rip, Maxiell, Sharpe, future 1st rounder to Phoenix for Amare.
Stuckey/MFWB/Summer Leaguer
Gordon/AA/Washington
Odom/Thornton/Daye
Amare/Summers/Jerebko
Kaman/Kwame/Plaisted or Summer leaguer
I’d prefer Artest over Odom, but that’s a solid line-up. Would Phoenix be able to get much more value for Stoudamire than that trade?
He’s also our best big man!
Colin, I was thinking for another big man…
@brgulker
He’s one of the better bargains in the league at his price/production. I honestly want to keep him around for the long haul. I think he’s found his place here– especially toward the end of last season he really started putting in some great minutes, rebounding, blocking shots, setting some sick-nasty screens. I think I even saw him drive the lane and convert a layup once. I just love the guy, love what he’s been through, love his price tag/production, and I hope we show the guy some loyalty and consistency for the first time in his professional career. He’s never going to complain, never going to ask for anything more than he’s earned. He’s a pretty quintessential Piston of you think about it. He could be this generation’s Elden Campbell. In a good way.
Brgulker, I figured…..but…..I’m very afraid.
I don’t mind Charlie V. if he’s paired with a real, post-up 5. The problem is adding Ben G. to this roster and not getting a real center.
Joel, I agree about Kwame. He’s never going to be a star, but he’s always going to be solid. And he’s cheap!
I can’t wait for the summer league to start, here’s a link to our roster and schedule of games.
http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/summerleague_090701.html
There’s a lot of guys i wanna see play in vegas. I hope they do well.
Bill H: “and you’d add talent through the draft. ” Not drafting in the late 20’s Second, you’re assuming that we get equal value in return for each staggered expiring contract. Ain’t going to happen. Particularly when you add in the chemistry factor.
What are the odds of finding a legit 3 point shooting big man who defends the post well when sheed is up? A defensive minded 3 who can score and do a reasonable job of creating his own shot when Tay’s contract is up? A darting 20 pt scoring 2 for 11M/year when Rips contract is up? A steady captain at the 1 capable of hitting the big shot for 14M/yr when CB is up? I think you can come thru on maybe 1 of those where the stars align, because you’re going to need someone to trade for the same thing they’re supposedly giving up to for. And the person they’re giving up is far younger, currently making the same, meaning at contract time they’re looking for a raise. I put the odds at very unlikely. If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it.
The MLE is what? 5.5mil? CV’s probably still a value at 6-7mil.
I haven’t watched him play much though.
KronikJose, the Toronto and Golden State games should be interesting. We’ll see how the Piston SFs do against Demar Derozan and Anthony Randolph.
MB, you don’t have to hit a home run every time with those kinds of trades. You just have to bat maybe .300 or .400 to keep the talent level high. And if you have a reasonable hitting percentage on the first-rounders (finding a Tayshaun or a Maxy every few years, as Dumars has already shown he can do), I think you should be fine. The point is not to panic, and not to undervalue what you have, and not to make big sweeping moves because you’re bored or whatever.
As a real-world example I point to the Spurs, who, yes, they have Tim Duncan, and that was a huge stroke of luck, but they’ve consistently and patiently put winning players around him. You don’t win with Tim Duncan alone.
As a real-world example I point to the Spurs, who, yes, they have Tim Duncan, and that was a huge stroke of luck, but they’ve consistently and patiently put winning players around him. You don’t win with Tim Duncan alone.
Ginobili’s also been one helluva stroke of luck. I think SA’s a model franchise (they took Blair, which only solidifies the point in my mind), but they have gotten lucky as hell, to boot.
Seriously, who thought Manu would be one of the best SG’s in the game?
I say Duncan was luck because that team had David Robinson and only got the pick because he had a freak injury. Ginobili was plucked out of nowhere. That’s just great scouting and managerial skill. The Spurs were onto the South Americans before any other team really knew about them.
Amazing how good he’s become, absolutely.
I think Stuckey/Rip/Gordon could work. Gordon doesn’t demand the ball like AI does, and we could put Rip at the 3 to rest Tay so he doesn’t disappear in the playoffs. Rip goes to the bench, Gordon then launches a bunch of treys. It all depends on Stuckey’s development as a PG. CV would help our scoring as well, obviously, so our C wouldn’t have to be a scorer. Kwame wouldn’t be terrible at simply rebounding/putbacks/garbage work. I would be worried about our defense and shot blocking though.
I don’t disagree, Bill. They are, in my view, the model franchise.
You don’t win with Tim Duncan alone.
Unless it’s 2003. Not even Bird, Magic, or MJ can ever claim to have done that. Duncan’s performance in those Finals was one of if not THE greatest Finals performance of all time. 21/20/10/8 in the deciding game. Ridiculous.
(washed up Robinson, rookie Parker and Ginobli, New Jack City being the second best player on the squad)
When do they announce the salary cap?
If the rumors are true… David Lee will go the Memphis (that’s a pretty good fit). Milsap to OKC (likewise). Turkoglu to Portland. All of these are 50mil contracts.
For the series (sorry, I’m bored), Duncan averaged:
24/17/5/5
Again, ridiculous.
Well, the spurs have had D Robinson in 99, T. Duncan is probably the best PF evah, - Mailman or KG, and I think you also have to factor in luck. They picked up Parker with the 29th pick and he panned out very well along with Ginobili. Nobody on our squad is ever going to be confused with TD. Still, under your scenario I don’t think even if we bat .400 and say hit it big with 2 out of 5 trades/signings for expiring contracts do we have the “TD individual” to take those misses and still compete.
We got guys who are good at their position, were underpaid when we acquired them (or drafted) but they are all worth more in sum than individually. I guess my point is in the long run you can’t miss 60% of the time and still maintain your competitive advantage. . . unless you have a Tim Duncan. And I do think a TD takes a cut to sign someone whereas Kobe doesn’t.
Rumor: Toronto’s offering Turkogulu 60mil/5yrs. Yikes!
QD: sometime this week they’ll have an absolute number. Many think it’s ~57-58M. But 50M for each of those guys for 5 years, too rich for my blood personally. Particularly how many holes we got to plug.
QD: buh bye Marion. Of course, BC said he’d help Marion with a SnT if he didn’t resign him. And I still don’t think this is enough for bosh to stay, especially if Marion goes elsewhere.
Bosh/Bargiani/Turk/Calderon/ ?/ (Evans) I don’t see that team challenging the big 3. A very small chance if Marion is at the 4, but with the money their giving Turk, he’ll be pissed and want more.
@Mike Payne
I’m not angry with you, just thoroughly confused. I’ll just kindly refute your anecdotal evidence of Gordon being the face of the franchise during that time. They never even really had one. Maybe Skiles? But certainly Hinrich, Deng, and Nocioni before Gordon. Not to mention the Bulls are a 2nd or 3rd class priority to the casual sports fan here anyway.
And even if my own observations of Chicago Bulls marketing are incorrect and yours are more accurate, your premise that such marketability alone is what sets Gordon apart from Von Wafer is equally ludicrous.
In fact, every marketing campaign the Bulls have had lately hasn’t been about a single player. It’s always about the team, or the ‘experience at the stadium’. They didn’t even give that treatment for Derrick Rose before this season.
You’re mistaken, Mike. Did Chicago kick you out due to your use of misogynistic digs like ‘princess’?
BullsBlogger, how much do you guys in Chicago want Gordon back? Who will replace him if he’s gone?
Also, Bulls dude, even if Gordon wasn’t the sole focus of Chicago’s marketing efforts, having spent 2006-2008 living in the Gold Coast and working in the Loop I can certainly attest to seeing a lot of Gordon in advertisements. Though I think this is a really stupid thing to be fighting about.
“Though I think this is a really stupid thing to be fighting about.”
Yes.
ugh, meant to follow that up…
I agree it’s stupid. That’s why I initially gave the ‘wtf?’ response to Payne when he said that not only was Gordon some marketing superstar, but so much so that it was his only real value over Von Wafer.
Also, why does Chicago make it so painfully difficult to get to the United Center via public transportation? I always had to take cabs to go, and it cost a ton. I love Chicago and think it’s the most beautiful city I’ve ever lived in, and I have very very few complaints about it. But the United Center was always a headache to get to.
Not that that’s relevant to anything. I just want to pepper the Bulls dude with questions while he’s here.
Bill, that’s a good question. A couple years ago they opened up a new rail line that goes right by the United Center, but there is no stop. I agree it makes no sense. You can take a bus west from the loop but it takes forever.
Maybe a lot of it has to do with a majority of their crowd not using public transportation?
If the rumors are true… David Lee will go the Memphis (that’s a pretty good fit). Milsap to OKC (likewise). Turkoglu to Portland. All of these are 50mil contracts.
I’m not convinced 50/5 is a bad deal for Milsap. Time will tell, obviously, but I don’t think that’s too extreme.
I’m sad we didn’t even make a run at him, though.
Yeah, brgulker, I’m not convinced either. If it’s 50/5, and the contract goes up by $1M every year, per the standard, that’s
8/9/10/11/12
each year.
A contract starting at $8M isn’t horrible.
Hey BullsBlogger, what about Gordon? How much do you guys want him back? Who steps in if he leaves? Do you think it’s true that he’ll accept less to go back to Chicago?
Especially if he does prove to be 16-18 and 10 guy on a nightly basis. I don’t know that he will, but it seems more likely than CV becoming that type of guy. Plus, he defends.
Oh well; I can’t handle this anymore. Too much disappointment for one season, and all the hope seems to have been squashed in a matter of hours.
Catch you all tomorrow.
Wow,
I understand that we’ve reached a rough patch for the Pistons but I still can’t understand the ideal of “firing Joe Dumars”. Let’s take a little inventory:
Joe takes a lottery team and turns them into the 2004 NBA champs. He then watches while the game changes and the team that he built fails to meet the expectations set by him and the fans. So he vows changes but gets nowhere because other teams are trying to take advantage of the situation to get pennies on the dollar so to speak.
So Joe takes a chance with Chauncey and trades him for Iverson. Thinking that maybe Iverson still has it and if he doesn’t then he can use the expiring contract for cap space which gives him flexibility.
He took chances and some of his efforts fell flat on their face but in every situation he puts the fan base in a position to have some level of hope that we will compete in the near future.
Granted CV and BG are not what we hoped for in regards to the cap space but some times things don’t work out and you have to just deal with it by doing your best to turn lemons into lemonade. I would not fire Joe for taking the chances that he has taken. He has been creative and purposeful and regardless of what could have been done there is no guarantee that anything else would have put him and the Pistons in as good of a position as we are in now.
Joe is making the best of every opportunity that comes his way by making the decision that gives him the best position down the road. But he needs a little luck to make things work. Since he is not clairvoyant as far as I know.
I have a wait and see attitude with the draft picks and I’m hoping that the free agency period will result in more than CV and BG but even if it doesn’t I’m not going to demand that Joe D be fired. The thought just seems ridiculous.
Very true shawn
That OKC offer to Milsap probably has Utah nervous. I wonder if Dumars is sweating them out so he can get Boozer for nothing.
1. Trade Maxiell for Boozer and Fesenko
2. Sign Villanueva at 7mil/year
3. Save the 5mil in leftover capspace (using some of it to give Bynum an extension)
Stuckey/Bynum
Rip/Afflalo
Tay/Rookie
Boozer/Villanueva
Kwame/Fesenko
In 2010, with Kwame, Fesenko and Boozer (17mil) off the books, there’s plenty of money to go after a prime free agent or extend Boozer.
We reportedly made a deal with Gordon
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2009-07-01/report-pistons-reach-deal-with-ben-gordon/
@Bill Higgins:
Also, why does Chicago make it so painfully difficult to get to the United Center via public transportation? I always had to take cabs to go, and it cost a ton. I love Chicago and think it’s the most beautiful city I’ve ever lived in, and I have very very few complaints about it. But the United Center was always a headache to get to.
I lived in Lakeview, so I’d hop the Halsted bus and take it down to Monroe. Three blocks off the Halsted bus is Charmichaels Steakhouse. I’d grab a table by the bar with some friends to drink a few beers pre-game, then take the free shuttle from Charmichaels to the United Center:
http://www.carmichaelsteakhouse.com/directions.php
That way, you a) don’t need to deal with taxis to or from UC, and b) you’ve got a spot to meet up with friends and drink beforehand. win/win.
@bullsblogger:
You’re mistaken, Mike. Did Chicago kick you out due to your use of misogynistic digs like ‘princess’?
Dude, you came at me with “what the hell are you talking about” and don’t like how I respond?
I imagine you’ve got United Center / Bulls Org contacts due to your gig. Might you be able to find out a) which bull sold the most jerseys in the 2005-06 season, b) which player received the most endorsement $ in that season?
Yeah, my eyeball analysis is quite limited, although note that DBB reader Joel backed me up above, as a Chicago resident and non-Bull fan. Two sets of eyes isn’t conclusive, but I can’t go back on my gut– it was evident to me that I saw Gordon everywhere, twice as much as any other player. The following year, it was Wallace and Deng, primarily, but that last season I was there it was Gordon everywhere.
I misspoke to say that marketability is the only thing separating the Gordons of the world from the Wafers– but it is a large factor in the size of a contract. So yes– there are plenty of other things that separate Gordon from Von Wafer.
They need to put a sweet high speed MagLev in and link the 313 to the 312, that would make my life so much better.
@MP
That is a FANTASTIC pre-game plan. I will most definitely be trying this the upcoming season. Although I’m in Bucktown now, so the Damen bus pretty much drops me right off right at the United Center’s front door.
Off-topic, but I’d give anything for a “Fuchsia Line” or something that ran east to west connecting Lakeview with Wicker Park/Bucktown. It just doesn’t make any sense to me and seems like poor city planning to not have even ONE east/west connector train.
MP, that’s good advice on getting to the United Center. Thanks.