From Y!’s Adrian Wojnarowski:
The Detroit Pistons have reached agreement with free-agent guard Ben Gordon(notes) on a five-year contract worth around $55 million, a source with knowledge of the talks told Yahoo! Sports Wednesday evening.
“I am waiting for a final confirmation (he can’t sign until July 8 ) but sources close to the negotiations tell me it’s done.”
Oh snap.
that’s an awfully expensive 6th man. dumars better have a deal lined up that nets us a big man for rip.
I’m sure a deal for Rip will follow in the coming weeks…
Although 55mil looks really steep, it more than likely won’t be evenly distributed and will probably be structured with incremental increases, so it may more likely look something like this:
2009-10: $9mil
2010-11: $10mil
2011-12: $11mil
2012-13: $12mil
2013-14: $13mil
if this really happens–it almost has to mean trading Rip. you can’t pay a sixth man 11 million, as mentioned above.
what about Rip for Tyson Chandler? the hornets are allegedly hemhorraging cash as bad as any team in the league, and trading Chandler along with a small contract or two could save them $10M+ with luxury tax considerations…other possibilities in the fake-trade-machine of my mind include Sam Dalembert and Marcus Camby (although the clips don’t really need another SG).
I also share the concerns from other posts about a Stuckey-BG-Charlie V team being the worst defensive lineup in the history of western civilization (TM bill walton).
Wow. That seems awful steep. We have to trade Rip. Have to. Otherwise Joe will be committing team suicide by having that much money tied up in the SG position over the next 3 years.
God, that’s a lot of money. I’m really bummed out about this.
amare is still on the block isn’t he?
fuckity fuck. or wait, is Ben Gordon going to be our scoring big?
small ball doesn’t die… it pops back up when you least expect it… like herpes.
@Mike Payne
No, but he’ll be on all your billboards!
@Mike: nope. Remember we fired Curry already
@bullsblogger:
you gonna follow me around and hump at my ankles now?
Biggest upside to the Gordon deal: apparently one of his nicknames is “Gentle Ben,” like the fictional bear who hosted a TV talk show on The Simpsons.
BullsBlogger, are you excited to get rid of Gordon?
I think this is a reasonable contract for BG.
What’s not reasonable is a frontcourt of Villanueva, Kwame and Maxiell. So, hopefully there’s another move coming if Villanueva is next.
I never want to hear Joe Dumars called a genius by anyone ever again.
Yeah, QD, if he can turn Rip into Amare or something, maybe it won’t be a total abortion of an offseason. Still, something I loved gets a little further away from the reasons why I loved it. What happened to defense and team play? Swapping Rip for Gordon goes against both of those things.
If Gordon’s first year is around $9mil, we still have about $10mil of cap space to play with. How much of it would probably go to Villanueva (if rumors are true, and I pray they aren’t)? Where would we use the remaining cap space? And where do you guys think Rip is inevitably going?
Yikes.
Tayshaun for Okafor. Stuckey for Randy Foye. Huskies. Huskies. Huskies.
Annnnnd Villanueva has come to terms with Detroit as well. 5 years, $35 million.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/wire/sns-ap-bkn-pistons-signings,0,2561066.story
http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/60264/20090701/villanueva_comes_to_terms_with_detroit/
Ugh.
“Still, something I loved gets a little further away from the reasons why I loved it”
I feel you Bill, seems like the whole worlds rapidly turning to shit.
It is finished.
Foye went to ‘Nova. So much for that.
My bad, Foye is Villanova. Stuckey for Rudy Gay? Josh Boone?
please make these a precursor to a boozer/bosh sign-and-trade…
Colin, remember how you said that we shouldn’t fire Joe just because of some obviously crazy speculation that he would waste all his money on Ben Gordon and C-Villa? Well…
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!1
Nice knowing you, relevance.
So is this Gordon starting at 9mil and Villanueva starting at 5mil? That leaves 5mil in space if it is.
The thing is, though I’ve talked a lot about wanting Joe Dumars to be fired, I don’t believe he ever will be. There have been a few articles in the Detroit media in the last few months about how Joe and Tom Wilson have introduced Bill Davidson’s widow to the ins and outs of running the Pistons franchise. The reporters made it seem like she really likes and trusts them. I imagine that both of those guys have really good job security.
I used to love Dumars as a GM, back in the days when he made commonsense decisions and seemed to value highly things like defense and team play. I don’t know what changed in his philosophy. Every new thing he does now is like a punch to the gut, except when he’s undoing something horrible that he shouldn’t have done in the first place - like firing Curry, which I was beyond thrilled about, but why should I be thrilled? He never should have had to be fired, because he never should have been given the job.
I’m just not feeling great about things right now.
Well, I guess free agency is over. See you in October!
Seriously though, if the Gordon and Villanueva contracts are slightly back-loaded (starting at $9M and $6M, then increasing annually), then we should still have a little cap space remaining for another bench player, plus the MLE, right? But that doesn’t sound like enough to get another big man to add to the Villanueva-Kwame-Maxiell rotation. So who’s getting traded: Rip or Tayshaun?
I have no idea what Joe Dumars is thinking, but so far I don’t like it.
@Bill Higgins:
I used to love Dumars as a GM, back in the days when he made commonsense decisions and seemed to value highly things like defense and team play. I don’t know what changed in his philosophy.
More and more, I feel like it was really John Hammond all along…
we dont get the MLE since were under cap
Hanging out with new Piston, Charlie V. We’re gonna swing by his wig maker—his “just woke up” hair is ready, and they’re only going to hold it for 24 hours.
Yeah, looks like we have less than the MLE remaining, which means most of the decent free agents left (Gortat, for instance) should be now beyond our reach.
This is it, guys!
Untrue, Jay, as long as we sign to the cap, we can use the MLE or part of it to go over.
As QD noted above, we probably have $5M in remaining cap space. Which FA big man can we get for that kind of money? Leon Powe certainly, but who else? There’s got to be a trade on the horizon.
@PS:
But that doesn’t sound like enough to get another big man to add to the Villanueva-Kwame-Maxiell rotation. So who’s getting traded: Rip or Tayshaun?
I’d actually be okay with all this news if we shipped Tayshaun to Utah for Boozer and played Villanueva at the starting 3. (granted, Utah doesn’t need an SF)
Stuckey/Bynum
Rip/Gordon
Villanueva/Rip
Boozer/Villanueva
Brown/Maxiell
Rip, Gordon and Villanueva could all get 30mpg in that setup, shuffling between positions. If there was some way we could make a move for Przybilla or another great defensive 5 (like Dalembert), I’d be happy with that as well (even if it means losing both rip and tay)
More and more, I feel like it was really John Hammond all along…
I hear you, MP. If Villanueva was so great, why didn’t Hammond try to keep him?
Oh, re: the $5M– I hope some of that is going to Will Bynum…
MP, but why the hell would you waste $11M on Gordon in that scenario?
Also, Gogol, you are not right. Only teams that are over the cap at the beginning of the offseason get to use the MLE.
Though, MP, that does look a lot better than the lineup I envision us actually having.
Defense? We don’t need no stinkin’ defense. If Stuckey couldn’t assert himself offensively when Iverson played how will adding two volume scorers help?
Rip, Gordon and Villanueva could all get 30mpg in that setup, shuffling between positions.
I was just thinking the same thing, MP: Villanueva as the starting SF, moving to PF in small(er)-ball or up-tempo situations, like the Zoo Crew from 2007-2008. And your projected starting lineup (again, assuming a Prince-for-Boozer trade) is pretty damn big, especially at the 1, 3, and 5 positions.
Sheed+Chauncey = Villen+Gordon, Jod youv’e turned wine to water…
Signing both CV AND BG promotes an interesting question; Is JOD giving up on a “Defense wins Championships” mindset? Whether BG starts or not, our defense is much more porous than at anytime in the last 7 years. I certainly don’t think “stopper” when CV comes to mind either. If we trade Prince and move Rip to the three we have a relatively fast team;
Stuckey/MFWB
Gordon/AA
Rip/Daye/Sharpe
CV/Maxi
FNG/Brown
Our only speed challenged position is Center.
I don’t like it, but it looks like JOD is creating a team that runs and guns.
Over-paid-ed! *Clap, clap, clap-clap-clap*
i don’t get this. Wouldn’t it be more important for the Pistons to try and re-sign Wallace, or a better frontcourt player (than Villanueva) than to add a shooting guard?
Well, Joe’s full on board for a youth movement. Maybe some proper coaching can get cv and bg to play some d? Trying to stay positive while i type. 55 mil. for gordon????? ahhhh. Rip HAS to be gone. Maybe all that shit he gave curry last season got both of them shipped outta town.
not sure about that lineup. I don’t like CV and boozer, because it would really suck to play both together from a defensive standpoint. you would basically only have kwame able to body up on people. I would rather they used tay or rip for a defensive big. plus, that trade doesn’t alleviate utah’s salary issues.
I was hoping to keep the contract at 10M per year, but I would rather have a 26 year old BG at 11M per over a 31 year old Rip at 12M per. Whether it be by trading Rip or using the rest of our cap space we’ll need to add a center some how. Charlie V at 7M per year is very good value IMO. I wonder if Dyess will come back with the money we have left?
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mf49ry
rip for amare?
Oh snap2.
I have to assume JOD is planning to trade Rip and/or Tayshaun for a big man. Who are the most likely targets? I’ll throw in a few here:
Tyson Chandler- Nawlins tried to dump his contract for whatever OKC could scrape out the back of the refrigerator last season. I like his defense, I love his rebounding, but I hate his contract.
Boozer- Only if he agrees to sign a long term contract/extension. His injuries are a concern but he’s a legit 20 and 12 big man.
Bosh- He would be the hardest to get because of his youth and health. His defense is only marginally better than Boozer’s, but he has great scoring range to go with very good rebounding. Bosh would play the 4 in Detroit leaving Kwame to do the dirty work work at the 5. He’s a little overrated IMO, but he’s still a hell of a player.
So how’s this suppose to work?
Ben’s played the 6th man role on and off but he’s getting starter money (All-Star money even), so is he willing to come off the bench for Rip? Or is Rip gone with his contract extension?
Getting CV was a good pick I guess at that cost but the Gordon signing though great, creates some lineup possibly for us…
I actually don’t like CV and boozer together. they can’t be played at the same time, and maxiell is also undersized. so really, the only guy who can body up with players and provide consistent defense is kwame. kinda scary. there should definitely be a rip trade, but it should be for a defensive big. (plus, that trade would not benefit utah, who is looking for a salary dump and has a developing SG)
and rip’s contract extension looks worse by the minute, too….
Hey Garrett, happy Canada Day! Dumars got you TWO presents.
LeeROY, don’t forget Dyess! Had he not been tossed into the Chauncey trade, thus voiding his contract, we’d have another year of Dyess.
The full equation is:
Chauncey + Rasheed + Antonio + 1 wasted year of players’ primes and fans’ lives + the $6.5M MLE we could have used had we entered the offseason over the cap
in exchange for
Ben Gordon + C-Villa + player(s) worth up to $5M
Well the good news is that McDyess’ agent is saying he may return to the Pistons.
At least that would provide some much needed rebounding and some depth in the frontline. If that happens AND we trade Rip for another big this could shape up to be a fairly competitive squad.
oops. double(ish) post
haha.. this is funny
Finally the team acquires guys who are known for scoring the basketball and everyone bitches.
I’m not overly excited about Ben Gordon acquisition but I’m not about to burn all my Piston gear because of it.
As far as Villenueva is concerned, wtf man? Why all the Debbie Downers in this fucking thread? He can fill up the basket, and he rebounds the basketball. He’s fucking long and he’s quick. The best back to the basket player in free agency, and we get him 5 years for 35 million? WTF? It’s not like he’s breaking the bank with that deal, and he’s only fucking 24 years old.
I hope it’s NOT a pre-cursor to a sign and trade with Bosh. As much as I want Bosh, I’m not going to fucking David Carradine myself if Joe Dumars doesn’t get him.
Who else was this team going to go after in free agency? Do half of you clowns expect teams to say “OMGZ WEER IN ECONOMIC TURMOIL!!! LETZ TRADE EVERYONE DETROIT WANTS FO DA SECUND ROWND PICKX!”
Please. I’d trade Chauncey Billups for Charlie Villenueva and Ben Gordon in a heartbeat. All of you would as well.
I’m not “all in” on this team yet, there are still moves to be made. If Rip gets flipped for a big, I’m all in.
I see a chandler for rip trade on the horizon. rip and CP3 would be amazing.
Almost of the champions over the last 20 years … were a top-10 defense. Only less than a handful were not so … and they were just average on D.
There’s no shot of having even an average D in Detroit, with the current roster.
Dude, Jod wastes no time finding a coach, either. Must want to rest on sunday or some shit.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4301086
From Detnews:
“When asked if the firing of Michael Curry helped put the Pistons back on McDyess’ radar, Miller said, “I think he would have considered them anyway, regardless, but that certainly didn’t hurt.”
Ouch.
SadPanda, I’d add Amare to that list.
I’m with Boney. Gordon and Villanueva are good (offensive) players, and we didn’t seem to overpay. This could be a fine Canada Day for the Pistons.
Bill Higgins,
If all teams General Managers looked at losing players like you just listed, they’d never make trades, sign free agents or let their players go.
Get real. Sheed punched out week 1 of the season. AI was a disaster. Billups was punched out with Sheed being punched out. Rip punched out when AI came to town. Stuckey didn’t know where the time clock was, or he would’ve punched out. Amir was out to lunch half the time.
If you say to yourself that you wouldn’t trade Billups for Villenueva (24) and Gordon (26), you’re kidding yourself.
@Boney
I’m with you. I just don’t see how these are bad signings. I may be pretty alone on this one but I like it. I watched CV play quite a bit when he was a Raptor and I’ve always been a fan of his game. Gordon I haven’t seen play as much but from what I’ve seen the guy is pretty clutch — something we’ve been missing since that other PG we used to have played in the D.
I am such an overated player. I can’t belive old man Dumars signed me to such a ridiculous contract, and for five years too! Hahaha! What a great way to eat up all your cap space – signing me, the second coming of Allen Iverson! I can’t wait to hoist up shot after shot! Defense? We talkin’ about defense? Defense? Man, we talkin’ about defense?
Almighty JOD: I’m leaving the house for a few hours. No coaching hires until I return, please?
For the record, I think the new coach is going to be Avery Johnson.
Agreed, Boney. Another thing to temper some of these reactions to is that there are no numbers on the other fa’s yet. Who knows what jod was hearing about the hammer/millsap/oden/etc. Maybe Jod struck first and got some deals. Or he pissed away almost a 100 mil on some huskies.
@Sean W
I’m not happy with giving Ben Gordon an average of 11 million over 5 years while giving Rip virtually the same money. That’s $20+ million per year for shooting guard. Joe’s vision of the team has money spread equally over all 5 positions, always has, likely always will.
This is why I think Rip is gone.
Ben gives us an offensive weapon we lacked last season. Ben can come off the screen and bury a 3 in your face, and he pulls no punches with it.
He plays no defense, and he commits stupid fouls still but… Afflalo is a solid defender and defends his position very well.
I believe Rip gets traded for a big (hopefully) and the team acquires another combo guard like they used to have with Flip Murray or Delk to come off the bench when Ben gets in foul trouble.
Craig,
With CV getting looked at by Cleveland, San Antonio (likely) among others… I can see why Joe jumped at the chance to pick him up. He could pick his team whereas guys like Gortat and Millsap could pick their team but they were restricted.
You run the risk of long drawn out negotiations with guys like Odom because he seems to want to stay in LA.
I was the first to complain about Rasheed never being in the post, and now we acquire CV and people wonder why I’m not mad… the guy is young (24), he shoots the 3 ok, but he plays very well with his back to the basket.
55 million dollars for Ben Gordon?! Really? That’s um … really?! We shipped off Chauncey Billups & endured a losing season so we could overpay an undersized shooting guard who can’t play defense and is a spotty perimeter shooter? Is there something in the Detroit water that made Joe Dumars stupid? Because he didn’t used to be…
Boney, that’s simply not how things worked with this whole mess. Because we’re under the cap now, we get to spend only up to the cap and not beyond it. The total salary base is about $10M lower than it could have been otherwise, if we’d elected to make trades for useful players rather than cap space.
The strategy Dumars used to rebuild gave him much less money to work with, and that’s why the talent base on next year’s Pistons will be inferior to last year’s. You can pretend the swap was Chauncey for Gordon and Villa, but that’s simply false.
Believe me, I do not want to be down about what’s happened to the Pistons. These are my guys! I love this team, and have since I was a little kid. Even today, as a grown adult, I’ve spent much of the day scanning stupid articles for little shreds of news, when I really really should be working and earning a little money.
I’ve loved the Pistons not only because I am from Detroit but because at their best they have played a style of basketball I love and admire, a team game that relies on toughness stresses defense. The team they’ll field next year is a pretty far cry from that. And I don’t believe for a second that the new roster will contend seriously for a championship. It’s extraordinarily depressing to me.
@Boney
Agreed. I think the assumption among all of us has been that if Gordon comes, R.I.P. is gone. You just can’t have 20M wrapped up in SG’s. That said I still think Gordon is an upgrade over Hamilton, not particulary from a numbers standpoint, but because the guy doesn’t have to rely on someone else to get shots off and he can bury late game jumpers. And let’s face it, Rip no longer has Billups to feed him those nice passes off screens.
As far as defense goes, I think thats one of those things players can improve with the right coaching staff in place. If Avery ends up being the coach here I think that could happen. However both these guys played for Scott S. and he couldn’t get much out of them in that respect. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
get raymond felton as a 1, trade rip, bring stuckey off the bench — he’s not a pg.
If there’s 5mil of room left of cap space, how about Rip for Boozer and Kyle Korver?
Rob K,
Spotty perimeter shooter? 41% from 3 is spotty? Come back when you read a sports page n00b.
Bill Higgins,
Look.. guys get old, they lose steps. I feel you don’t feel the team can compete for a championship because it’s not the same type of team that’s been out there in the past.
This isn’t a fucking sprint. We’re not Orlando, Cleveland or Boston.. I’d rather have a solid team and add pieces to it then buy a KG for $20+ million, Ray Allen for $18m or so, and Pierce for $22m for 2 or 3 seasons and be fielding offers for my up and coming stud point guard because I won’t be able to sign him to a max deal without paying double the salary in luxury tax.
This team will compete, they will be young. I’d rather have a young team out there for 4 or 5 years learning and winning together than have a bunch of holdovers from 1 championship run, and then add a Rasheed Wallace when the time is right.
and it’s not like Villenueva’s contract is untradeable… jesus
5 years, 35 million? easily tradeable
QD: That’s my idea! You stole it from me like ten minutes ago off the phone!
I’ve loved the Pistons not only because I am from Detroit but because at their best they have played a style of basketball I love and admire, a team game that relies on toughness stresses defense.
At this point, the teal should return, with additions of pink and lime green. Red white and blue isn’t fitting anymore.
Sauce don’t be a clown…
Does Joe D take a huge risk/reward gamble now and try to trade Rip for Brand? I doubt Brand can be what he was pre-injury, but if he’s 80% or 90% of that? At worst he’s a very good defender who rebounds well and blocks shots. Brand can play center against most teams in the league since there are so few true centers left.
PG: Stuckey / Bynum
SG: Gordon / AA
SF: Tay / Daye/Summers/Jeberko
PF: Charlie V / Maxi
C : Brand / Kwame
Brand would be the only guy who is 30 at the beginning of the year. Everybody on our roster besides Brand and Tay would be entering their prime or a couple years away from it. It’s definitely more risky then trading for some one with a shorter contract like Kaman or Dalembert, but I think it would give us more upside then any other realistic option.
Too slow on the draw, LB.
Boney, I’m fine with young guys having to learn how to play together. I understand that. I can be patient. We lived through that with the 2004 champions, and it was a lot of fun to see them come together and improve every year.
I’m not complaining about that. I’m complaining about the foundation being laid today. If BG and Villa are among the cornerstones, then the finished team is likely to be something completely contrary to what basketball in Detroit used to mean. It also will be a team that I have real trouble believing will ever win a championship. As Sauce reminded us again above, champion teams know how to defend.
I hope I’m wrong about these guys, but it looks bad now.
Plus, you didn’t like my Rip for Yao straight up idea.
Amen Bill.
Riddle me this: who is the last Piston guard to average at least 20.2 ppg (Gordon’s totals from ‘08-09)?
A: Jerry Stackhouse (though Rip got close a couple times)
And as Kevin pointed out in an earlier post today, Bison was our last big to average as much as CV last season.
That said, these guys are complementary players. Starting caliber, for sure, but they aren’t the top 20-players necessary to create mismatches in the playoffs. I hope Tay and Rip are being dangled for Amare or a similar talent as we speak.
We won a title with a cast of complementary players, and Gordon and CV come with similar chips/resumes/whatever that Rip, Chauncey, and Sheed did when obtained. But how many teams have won it all with an ensemble cast and no leading man? I fear that Joe is trying to recreate an exception rather than chasing the rule.
Bill H…do you remember what you thought of Rip, CB and Ben Wallace when they came to Detroit? 3 young guys with lots of questions marks before becoming Pistons. Did you ever think they’d be cornerstones of a championship team? Be honest now…
I like Rip for Brand. Not sure what Philly’s mindset is though. Are they willing to pull the plug on Brand so quickly? Their lineup would be:
Miller (if they resign him)
Rip (instead of Kapono or Willie Green)
AI
Young (instead of Brand)
Dalembert
oh please with the used to mean crap…
This team will still be competitive. Villenueva isn’t exactly Allen Iverson in a power forward’s body. Sure he has room to improve but tell me what you saw last season in Detroit.
Defense when Rasheed felt like it, and when he wasn’t a step too slow.
Hmmm… I kinda figured it would be one or the other. As it stands, it looks like we need to make another move. Still, we added two above average players. If Dyess comes back, I would argue that we are the deepest team in the league.
Love the brand trade, not sure philly bites, since rips contract is almost as long.
I’m all over the place I guess. I never wanted Ben Gordon from the moment Jod seemed interested (what, 2 years ago?). I just never liked him, which is perhaps unwarranted. But I’ve agreed with Bill H as long as he’s been going on about our back court being fine. And I think we definitely overpaid.
I’m fine with Charlie V. I think less people would seem upset about it if it weren’t for the fact that these guys came together and so fast. I like KD’s article about our moves, and the fact that it was so fast. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/This-is-Detroit-s-haul-?urn=nba,174064
But hey, maybe this is the best way to go. Perhaps Rip needs to go and have the team be blown up all the way. If anything, I don’t think anyone can argue that if ONE player from the Pistons of old sticks around that will leave the past in the past, play with a set of new guys, and buy into a new coach, it’s Tay. He’s done whatever needs to be done his entire career. And if any of our draft picks turn out to be a serviceable backup, there are two perks: (1) Tay (hopefully) plays better after a long break and not being forced to hover around 40 mpg and (2) new guy has a good teacher.
I’ll come around I guess. I’m just not totally on board yet.
“Are they willing to pull the plug on Brand so quickly?”
I think so, I know I’ve read articles saying they are willing to move Brand. They’ve played much better doing a small ball line-up, so I think Philly would sign off on it. Plus Rip is from the area.
Jim, the good thing about those guys (Ben, Chauncey, Rip) was that their deals were pretty small, so they weren’t big bets. We took chances on them, but we could easily have moved on if they hadn’t panned out, because we bought very low on all of them. We’re certainly not buying low on Ben Gordon.
And Boney, no one argued that the Pistons last year were about defense and team play. Probably a good deal of that had to do with giving up their captain and best player for one of the worst defensive players of his generation.
Boney, I’m not the one selling the Kool-Aid.
OHHHHHH YEAHHHHHH!
umm maybe we should cool it on all the trade talk…
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/07/01/pistons.signings/index.html
“Ben agreed to come here knowing he would come off the bench,” the source said. “That makes it completely different than Iverson coming here … Gordon is choosing to come here and play the super sub role.”
@Boney? n00b?! I’m guessing I went to my first Pistons game while you were still sucking on your Michael Jordan beach towel. 41%- yeah, whatever, numbers taken out of context don’t mean anything. I hope I’m dead wrong, of course, but right now I don’t see this team making it past the first round, IF we make it that far. If this is another throwaway season, we should have just traded for T-Mac’s expiring contract, signed a few D-Leaguers for a year, and gone into the 2010 free agency with close to $50 mil in cap space. It would have made for just as exciting of a season. FWIW, I don’t have a problem with CV, but we still need a big man- Kaman would be ideal, Boozer would be just another money pit.
On a personal note, you really should be aware who you are addressing when you decide to be an asshole. I’ve read enough of your posts to know you are not quite as learned as you think. BTW, that’s pronounced “lurr-ned”…
Re: patthepat
I think he could be just saying that because he knows Rip is on his way out at some point.
Uuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggh. A 11 mil super sub, and starting at center, Kwame “cake” Brown. Not how i would’ve balanced the roster.
Wondering if Jod reads the blog and keeps sending us crazy signals until we turn on each other and burn down the internets?
The Good:
Charlie Villanueva at a reasonable price. A guy that will fill up the bucket and stat sheet. He could be at that point in his career where he breaks out much like Chauncey and Rip when they signed with Detroit. Also, and this has been said, Cleveland wanted him. So we make ourselves stronger and a rival weaker. Which can also be said for Chicago. We’ll be better in transition now.
With Ben Gordon we have a phenomenal scorer who will allow Stuckey to play off the ball and can stretch the defense. We thumb our noses at Chicago for getting a valuable player from them in the same way they thought they were taking Ben Wallace from us.
Maybe this is not the end. Maybe we still get Brandon Bass or David Lee and maybe even Tyson Chandler.
The Bad:
Rip and Gordon = not good. This sounds like another season 2008/9 remake. Rip needs a true point to get him the ball at certain points on the floor. I know his game has evolved some but I still think he’s not that good off the dribble (he dribbles too high and has a slow first step).
Where is our center and how can we play halfcourt ball? Where is the Defense? We need a center who can patrol the paint and prevent penetration to the basket after they get around our guards. We also need more rebounding. Although CV is decent with the rebounding. Where is the help D from our bigs?
Ben Gordon is small and a defensive liability unless he guards the point guard and if he’s guarding the point guard the scoring guard will probably be abusing Stuckey.
The ugly:
This lineup as it stands is a mediocre line up. We’ll be drafting in the teens for years to come and it’s not going to be easy to unload Ben Gordon unless there is a contender looking for scoring punch.
Conclusion:
I’m still waiting for the other shoe to drop. No, I don’t want Dumars fired. That is ridiculous. He is still a great GM. Things didn’t pan out like he hoped. They rarely do. Every plan needs a little bit of luck to work and the jury is still deliberating because the off season is not yet over. I’m still hope full.
Rob K,
I should be more aware aye?
It’s hard to skew the numbers in my favor when I looked straight at the stat sheet from last season and I see 41% under the 3pt % column. Hard to skew those numbers…
Good for you that I’ve been memorable enough for you to know who I am.
I think that’s a fantastic idea to sign a bunch of d leaguers or acquire TMac’s expiring deal so that we can be the 2007 Miami Heat! Then we can get a high draft pick and use it on a college player who came out after 1 year and who knows if he’s worth it… and then we can say “hey look LeBron, we’ve got Stuckey, Arron Afflalo and Jason Maxiell. Come to OUR team!” and then we can offer Chris Bosh a max deal and say “hey Chris! We’ve got a starting lineup now that you and LeBron are here. If you know anyone who wants to play basketball let us know!”
Get a grip clownshoes.
lol@PS: Happy Canada Day to me! *thumbs up and a wink*
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like the signings. Sure, we may have overpaid for Ben Gordon a bit, but both he and CV are skill upgrades over what we had last season. And last season we had decent talent on paper, but our coach was AFI. So add our talent (with some upgrades) and a real coach and we might win some ball games and get competitive again.
Garrett,
OMGZ DUNT SYP DA KEWL AYD MAN!
DIS TEEM IZ OVERRATYD! OMG
Motherfucker better be in full-season Beastmode for those dollars. Joe jettisoned Curry earlier than I’d expected, so I’m going into 09/10 with positivity.
Does Charlie V remind anybody of Antawn Jamison? He could be putting up big #’s in a couple years.
I predict Rip for Milsap.
Stuckey/WB
Gordon/AA
Prince/Daye
Villanueva/Dice/Max
Millsap/Dice/Kwame
@Skylar- True, we no longer have to listen to Curry explain why the house is on fire. I’ll take that as a positive.
In fairness to Dumars, Rasheed is responsible for a bit of this 08-09 mess:
1) Dumars fires Flip because Sheed never listened to him
2) Dumars hires Curry with the expectation that Sheed would respect him and be, uh, coached for the first time since ‘05
3) Sheed doesn’t respect Curry, plays uncoached
4) Post-Billups trade, Sheed realises he is an expiring contract and, bags half packed, mails in the rest of the season
Make no mistake, when Dumars talked about rebuilding with good characters this offseason, AI wasn’t the only diva he was referring to.
We send Rip and Tay to Toronto for Bosh. 2 all stars for one All NBA player. We then lineup Stuckey, Gordon, Villanueava, Bosh and Kwame. Then, we all kill ourselves…
David Aldridge is a legit reporter and I’m not saying BG as a “super sub” won’t happen, but can you really go out there and announce BG as a starter anyway? Kinda torpedoes any trade value Rip would have should Joe decide to deal him. Of course he has to be announced as “coming off the bench” unless Rip isn’t on our roster.
Oh and, as an aside, CV seems like a really high character guy for what it’s worth.
@boney - I’m always touched by your presence- but not as touched as you. 41% doesn’t mean much when you’re a ball hog. Maybe you should look to the teal years & check out Stackhouse’s shooting percentage (high) when he was a Piston, and compare it to the team’s winning percentage (low). Oh, never mind- you probably didn’t realize the team when back that far. Hey, this might be the perfect time to bring back Rothstein!
I don’t get it; you guys expect Joe D to sign these guys for peanuts or get top notch players for dirt cheap. I think there’s too much listening to that clown Vilente on the radio to get your opinions.
Both these guys are worth the money they are getting for what they bring. They would not have signed for less anywhere, but more. They’re not superstars, but are really good role players and possible all-stars to put around a superstar or consistent all-star like a Bosh or Stoudamire. They both have flaws on the defensive side, but so did Rip and Chauncey before they came here.
I’d rather have these two guys than Rip and Sheed. Rip became a diva and couldn’t dare come off the bench without making a fuss. BG at least did that much for Chicago without pouting (granted, I don’t want him coming off the bench). BG immediately becomes our best free throw shooter and our best 3 point shooter. He is also clutch as hell. No one on our team is clutch. His contract is cheaper yearly than Rip’s anyway. Doesn’t Rip make 12 mil a year compared to about 11 mil for BG? CV is damn good offensively for the little minutes he got and his contract is not bad at all for what we’re getting. He can play inside and out and does, unlike Sheed but his is somewhat weak defensively. We should really pursue Dyess though to keep a defensive big in the mix. Kwame alone can’t cut it.
You guys also forget that our problems in the past were that we couldn’t score for the life of us or rebound. We also couldn’t stop anyone from scoring on us once Ben left. All this talk about defense is BS. We had good team defense but average individual defense. Good team defense starts with one or two good defensive players. We have to find those guys or at least coach that guys we have; that’s were a defensive minded coach will be an asset.
Sheed’s defense will be missed but the guy never showed up in big games and cost us a lot with his antics. I’m sure Rip is a goner. I would rather have seen him get traded first and then sign BG since other GM’s know we can’t keep 2 top rated SG and will try to low ball us.
Rob K: Please don’t confuse this for me condoning the way Boney insists on demeaning anyone who disagrees with him, but Jerry Stackhouse was a TERRIBLE shooter when he was on our team. Here, look:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3005/career;_ylt=Ai4QzuRVnmTWsMZW9l_4RT0MPKB4
Actually, Stackhouse was a terrible shooter when he was with the Pistons (and throughout the rest of his career, for that matter).
Zach Randolph to the Grizz for Q. Richardson, by the way.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4301324
@Rob K - I appreciate your candor, I really do.
It’s hard to argue that 45.5 fg% and 41% 3pt% when the man takes 2 more shots a game than Rip is a “ballhog”
The guy is efficient from 3, and at or just below Rip’s ability from the mid range. Rip’s last year where he averaged 20ppg, he averaged 16 shots a night. Gordon averaged 20 a night last season, and averaged 16 shots a night.
So he’s a ballhog and Rip isn’t?
I know about the teal years clown. I know about the years before the teal years as well. Anytime you’d like to stop being a douche and understand the game of basketball, I’ll be here.
@ LawyerBoy - yes I know, I should have said shooting, not shooting percentage - Stack could score 40 points, but he’d have to jack up 95 shots to get it - which, in a roundabout way, is what I’m saying BG is going to bring - but I hope I’m wrong. One of the very first games I ever went to was the Pistons/ Sixers, when both AI and Stack were on the same team. Not really enough balls to go around. As to the rest of the exchange, it’s all just fun, and I’m bored right now.
for once, LawyerBoy and I are on the same page.
jesus christ, is it snowing outside?
@boney - candor is a pretty big word for someone like you to be using- did you learn it from a movie? Anyway, I never drew any comparisons between Rip and BG - I’ll leave that to you, because apparently you’re very smart and can Google things, and even cut-and-paste from Yahoo Sports. Wow, what I wouldn’t give for such mad skills. Well, it’s probably time for your basketball enema now, so I’ll let you go. Later, big head-
@Rob K
I didn’t cut and paste anything my friend. I do learn a lot from movies as well. I’m easily entertained.
Honestly, I don’t read Yahoo Sports at all… I go straight to ESPN, skim a few articles and that’s it for me for sports for the day my friend. I wanted to make sure that I had some statistical background for you, since you decided to rattle off shit that isn’t true.
So tell me… is Ben a ball hog when he puts up the same amount of shots as our starting shooting guard, in the same amount of time each game? He must be a more efficient scorer by the way, since he averages more points per game too right?
So now that the “Goin’ To Work” Pistons era is now officially over. Can we please retire, “DEEEEE-TROIT BASKET-BAAAAALLLLLL”
I kind of don’t get it the deals. I think Joe’s got something in the works, or at least has a general idea of what he can get for the guys currently on the team. There’s a lot of options out there. But a lineup of Stuckey-Rip-Tay-Villanueva/Dyess-Kwame doesn’t seem atrocious. With Gordon/Bynum/Max coming off the bench, that’s a second unit that can do some damage. We’re undersized and that’s a major problem against Orlando and Cleveland, but I don’t hate what we’re doing. If we could turn Tay + parts/picks into Amare (yes, pipe dream I know, but SKIAFI), then I’d love what happened.
Boston, Cleveland, and San Antonio all badly want Rasheed. I’d bet that whoever signs him will be extremely glad they did.
Let’s all get this straight… We used up every penny of our cap space and didn’t address our biggest need: depth at PF/C.
Is Joe seriously rolling with a Charlie/Kwame, PF/C combo (with Max the only back-up even on the roster!!!)? That is fucking retarded. Now if we don’t make a trade, we are completely and utterly screwed.
Joe Dumars is a fucking idiot.
Gabe, I think we do probably have a handful of cap space left - like $5M or so. But almost certainly not enough to get anybody who will move the needle in any way.
We have three big guys on the roster and we just spent $11M a year on a guy who plays the same position as our best player. Great day for Detroit.
Or, wait, am I wrong about that? The NBA.com article says all the cap space is gone. Well this is just wonderful.
jeez, so damn pessimistic.
@boney - I’m pretty easily entertained as well. Thanks for the pissing match- it was fun. I will just leave at this, and this isn’t science by any means, but, 41% shooting with no defense, is not 41% any more. If I’m wrong, I’ll owe you a beer. Now, I gotta drink my prune juice and go to bed- take care-
@Rob K - no problem. I usually respect my elders more, but in your case I made an exception.
We did help our need… we acquired a PF…
Now if we can find out a way to get Amare Stoudemire for Rip Hamilton!
I say we all shave our eyebrows in commemoration of Charlie’s arrival!
We could definitely ship off RIP for Kayman, who would definitely give us defense. But then the question is would Chandler be a better option, and even if he is, could both be gotten for a cheaper option?
With this economy, what does RIP actually draw right now? Could you get a guy like Bosh for him, and even if you do, who plays center? Villanueva can’t play small forward because he doesn’t have the lateral quickness to play defense.
Ha. Only the Clippers could get fleeced by the Grizz.
As for Gordon being a ballhog, he’s effective with the ball, so I don’t see why that matters. As long as he’s hitting 41% from 3pt range, he can take that shot all he likes.
Are we better then we were 12 hours ago? I’d say yes. Did we hit the home run that we were hoping for thru last seasons implosion? No. I’m good with the CV contract, and think i’ll warm up to gordon pretty fast. Since the season doesn’t start for another 3 months or so, I think Jod can fill in the gaps. Or maybe he’ll hit that home run with a trade. I’ll still watch, either way.
according to david alrridge:
Gordon’s arrival is different, a team source said.
“Ben agreed to come here knowing he would come off the bench,” the source said. “That makes it completely different than Iverson coming here … Gordon is choosing to come here and play the super sub role.”
“Is Joe seriously rolling with a Charlie/Kwame, PF/C combo (with Max the only back-up even on the roster!!!)? ”
We did draft Austin Daye for a reason.
I’m also hoping for a better, more productive Afflalo and Max, which we didn’t see last year at all. Both of them are solid, quality players and I hope they can make an impact this season without any DNP-MCIAFI’s.
Ben Gordon is the #4 active NBA player according to career 3P% and his sample size is rather large. He is a terrific shooter. Drop the stupid argument.
As for the signings, poor moves as of now.
I think the biggest problem for this team is figuring out who is going to finish close games. If Gordon is a clutch player, which I could almost buy, does rip sit the bench at the end of the game? Stuck? Who’s the PG down the stretch? If we go small we can’t get rebounds. No rebounds + No defense = No wins coming from behind in the final couple of minutes. That’s why I don’t believe this 3 guard rotation will work. I hope I’m wrong.
I honestly believe that ZBo wishes he wouldn’t have signed as large of a contract when he did… he’s gone from a team who has used his money to build a young contender (Portland) to a team who doesn’t know where they’re doing (Knicks) to the worst team in the league (Clippers) and now to the only team that can afford his contract this offseason (Grizzlies)…
jesus… what’s next? D league?
kevin: Don’t you mean only the Grizz could get fleeced by the Clippers? ZBo has 2 years and over $33 million left on his deal. His stats wouldn’t suggest it but somehow he’s a black hole of success.
Gordon and CV31 combined for more 30 point regular season games (13) than the entire Pistons squad last year (12). There are serious flaws in putting great weight into that “stat”, but I think it’s definitely worth noting.
well so much for getting Kayman for free. DAMN YOU Darko.
@ kevin s:
True, but Daye just projects to be a slightly better Charlie Villanueva!
@ Gabe
Daye projects to be a slightly better Villenueva? so better than 16 and 8 isn’t good now?
Goodbye Rip and Tay.
The ride was fun but it’s time to move on.
@ Garrett:
IMO, Spellcheck is going to find playing time very hard to come by next season, I’d be surprised if he even averages 10 minutes a game (unless of course Rip gets traded, then AA will probably be back around where he was last year- roughly 15 minutes per game).
Joe D is a genius.
@ Boney:
It’s still good, just would be a little redundant.
Hopefully Daye can stay at SF, then his way above average shot-blocking for that position could help make up for Charlie’s lack of shot-blocking from the PF position.
I’d really like to know the specifics of the deals. ESPNEWS just reported Villanueva’s deal was 5 yrs./$40 million. I thought it was 5 yrs./$35 million?
Guys, Villanueva just earned bonus points.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSdKg_h_O9w
number 10, he DECKS VERAJO!!!!!!!
My god, I fucking HATE Verajo, that guy deserved to have Allen hit him in the nuts
As a potential correction, Hollinger for what it’s worth has the chuckey villan deal at 40 mil not 35. We’ll have to see what that does to the cap when it comes out on the 8th, were playing with an imaginary bank until then.
Hollinger’s an idiot. I’ll take Mat Derry’s word over his any day. Not to mention the Piston’s website has him at 35.
Honestly I’m really liking this deal. Villanueva averaged close to 24 and 10 per 40 minutes last season, which included him coming off the bench. Imagine him starting for a consistent 35, 40 minutes. He’s everything we’ve wanted from Amir and then some.
His biggest knock is the occasional lack of intensity, but I think that a guy like Avery could take care of that.
From what I can tell, he’s got above-average handles for a big man, not too shabby off the dribble, and has a more-than-decent post-up game.
Look at the video I posted, he reminds me of a less explosive, but more finesse version of stoudemire.
Once again, my only problem is the lack of intensity. He could be better than Chris Bosh (he did score 48 as a rookie), or he could be another Sheed. Once he gets his head straight, and stops jacking up threes to get in the post and rebound, we’ve got our star for cheap.
Ohh, and he’s got no eyebrows. Gives him a demonic look that kinda scares me. But that’s good, I’m sure his lack of eyebrows will put fear into oncoming guards in the paint.
Since the Clippers just traded Randolph, a deal to them is now out of the question. But what about a trade of Rip Hamilton and a sign and trade big man for Greg Oden/Joel Przybilla and Rudy Fernandez? That trade would give us some more cap space to resign, say, Antonio Mcdyess (or Brandon Bass).
Another possible scenario would be Rip for Amare somehow
Can someone enlighten me as to what suddenly made Tay so expendable? I know we just drafted a handful of 3’s, but are any of them actually good enough to fill the role right now? I’m not being facetious - I honestly don’t know. But except for the trades involving Thornton, I haven’t seen any that bring us back a starting 3. I don’t understand the people talking about CV doing the job. That’s like saying Sheed is a SF - they’re the same size and play a similar game (offensively anyway, and hopefully the younger version). I guess I’ll have to wait for the Summer League to see what we’ve got.
I hope Ben Gordon switches from #7 when he comes here. He won’t be getting his college #4, though. Just a hunch.
Thinking about it, in light of Memphis picking up Zach Randolph, Joe rushing out and signing Gordon and Charlie V is even more retarded. Now there’s only one team (OKC) that has over 10m in cap room. If we’d waited just a couple of weeks, it’s very possible that one of either David Lee or Millsap end up signing for not much more than what we paid Villanueva, and they’re both much better players.
Also, this signing will be a good test case of Dave Berri’s winscore metric… Ben Gordon and Charlie V have been below average (or just average) according to Berri’s metric throughout their careers… We’ll see what happens
Guys, dyess deserves to not come back. Let him get his ring (in anywhere but Cleveland of course) and he’ll likely return as an assistant coach.
Also don’t forget the Clips still have Camby and Deondre Jordon. Worst come worst they do Jordon and Griffin and still have an excellent rebounding front court. I think that Kayman is still available, but the price just went up.
And Greg, Sheed and CV are nothing a like except that they shoot 3s. Charlie has great ball handling skills and can drive similar to a small forward (or like a young Shaq could). However he’s too much of a defensive liability to do that anyways; in Sheed you were guaranteed good 1 on 1 with occasional shot blocking, even last year.
I love how people are saying this team is awful and doesn’t have heart defensively.
1. How the heck do you know? The season hasn’t started yet. Just calm down.
2. Defense is half coaching. If we get the right coach we’ll be pretty good defensively. Because I’m pretty sure Tmac isnt winning any defensive player of the year awards and his rockets team is always good defensively (and you can’t say he’s injuried. Go back years when JVG was around. They were good then and he was around)
3. Players can change. Sure it’s being optimistic to think that a player can change the way he plays after years of playing it one way but it can happen. Look at Pierce. He did not care about playing defense until Ray and Garnett showed up.
So you know what? Be happy. Everyone wanted change after this awful year of no one caring. Now we have two young players who want to be here. And a trade is going to happen. And a new coach. And people still complain. Get excited. I’m excited. Lets see some basketball.
You think we re-sign Iverson with the little cap space we’ve got left?
And speaking of shooting three-pointers: Gordon does it as well as anybody in the league and should give the Pistons a component they lost when they traded Chauncey Billups. Gordon is a career 41.5% three-point shooter. For comparison’s sake: Reggie Miller’s career percentage was 39.5 and Billups’ is 38.8.
Guys Ariza plans to leave LA for approximately the mid level exception. You sign Gortat for the remaining cap space and then use the MLE on Ariza…that’s a hell of a supporting cast. Now you all you have to do is ship off Tayshaun for a real superstar.
@Ali: Agreed on Dyess. I don’t want to see him re-sign here. I’d rather see him go to a team that is a contender right now. And I hope you’re right about CV. I’ve admittedly not watched a ton of him, but being that size would probably make him the biggest 3 in the league. That clip you posted certainly made him look more mobile (Odom-esque maybe?).
P.S. I hate Verejao too. Anyone that wants him on this team is not my friend.
Hey you guys don’t seem to realize what you have in Gordon. This guy can single handly erase 15 point deficits with very little time left and then bury the game winner from five feet behind the arc. Hes an extremely talented scorer, so much that it makes up for less than average defense. If you remember a few years back the bulls were still a top five defense in the league with him playin 30 minutes. This comes from a bulls fan.
The guy’s a PF that can play the 3, not a starting 3. As I said, his lateral quickness isn’t up to par for a 3, so guys like Granger or LeBron would simply step around him and walk to the rim
Doug Collins pulls out of running to be Pistons coach:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4301502
Avery Johnson, welcome to Detroit!
I’m drinking glenfiddich out of the bottle. I fucking hate Avery Johnson. Goddamn preachers.
I’d just like to point out that I predicted an Avery Johnson hiring *five* hours ago.
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2009-07-01/report-pistons-reach-deal-with-ben-gordon/#comment-188431
johnson is still owed two years worth salary by dallas. hope he forgets that and comes.
oh and yeah, go get ariza. trade tay and rip.
i am somewhat underwhelmed by this free agent signing. i guess i was expecting big things with all this talk of cap space for the last couple of months. that said, when i remove my expectations from these signings they look ok to me. we did overpay for gordon i think though and i heard on the radio on the way home from work that the cavs are trying to pick up artest which would make them pretty fearsome. hopefully thats just conjecture. all in all i think that these two moves are just declaring that we are in a rebuild mode unless we can somehow make some trades involving rip and tay for a bosh or amare. i think jod has something in the works for a big, the hole is too glaring to not be addressed.
First of all, I think Joe has to have some kind of deal in the works for either Tay or RIP(preferably RIP) to get a big in here. Being able to pay BG $11 mil to come off the bench is a luxury we can not afford since we have gaping holes up front. However, there is still one, somewhat decent, big man available in free agency not named Gortat…Zaza Pachulia. I know he isn’t the flashiest player, but he is a big capable body that knows how to play his role and clog the lane. It would be kinda like having 2 kwame’s only Zaza doesn’t have hands of stone. He’s still relatively young and is still showing signs of improving. Just a few years ago he averaged about 12 and 8 for 2 straight years. He wouldn’t be our answer by any means but if we can’t work out a trade for a center he would be a viable backup plan.
WORST CASE SCENARIO MAYBE?
Stuckey/MFWB
RIP/Gordon/Afflalo
Tay/Daye/Summers/Jerebko
Villanueva/Maxi/Daye
Kwame/Zaza
Not the best but at least we would be filling out our roster a bit. I still hope we work out a trade to get a big in here and I still maintain that RIP and Maxi for Amare straight up should be enough to get him. We could throw in a pick if need be but those players should be enough.
I don’t get the overpaid argument. Gordon is an elite scorer. 11mil is underpaid if anything. Maybe it seems like he’s overpaid because Rip is there too (at 12mil I might add).
The roster is unbalanced, but the contracts are good.
The more I look at Ben Gordon’s stats, the more I like him. Gordon is called a ball hog all the time yet his usage rate was less than Rip’s last year. The trend in Gordon’s turnover % has been down and he has an elite TS%. The guy is a top shelf offensive player.
qd
i think thats what it is, gordon is overpaid if rip is staying, but if he is leaving im fine with him at the 2 if rip is moved.
i don’t think rip and maxi are enough to get amare. i don’t think teams are busting the doors down to get rip hamilton. you would have to sweeten that deal.
@QD:
I don’t get the overpaid argument. Gordon is an elite scorer. 11mil is underpaid if anything. Maybe it seems like he’s overpaid because Rip is there too (at 12mil I might add).
An NBA player has two roles– offense and defense. An “elite scorer” like kobe bryant and others deserve their salaries because they are “elite” on both ends of the floor. Gordon does not deserve $11M because he is one dimensional, just like that other undersized volume scorer that was on our squad last year.
MP, Carmelo Anthony doesn’t play any defense. Lebron only kind of plays defense. The young AI didn’t play any. Amare. Steve Nash. Dirk. I could go on and on. Ray Allen. Rashard Lewis. Michael Redd. Vince Carter. Gilbert Arenas. Joe Johnson.
Why not commence the bitching and moaning AFTER the team has been put in place by Dumars. I mean, does anyone here really not expect a trade?
Rip for Brand is intriguing…because it sends Rip back home to Philly and Brand is a better fit here than in Philly…only problem is we’re going uptempo, and that’s a style which really doesn’t suit Brand at all.
I don’t see a trade for Chandler, either. Dumars isn’t going to take on a big contract which isn’t expiring in a year (Chandler has an ETO for 2010, and I have no reason to believe he’d exercise it).
I don’t know if we’re necessarily going up tempo. For the most part, all of the true title contenders, outside of LA and Denver, play a half court game. That seems to be the way to win a title and I think the idea behind overpaying for Gordon was that he’ll open the lane for Stuckey.
Brand is another good option, but he’s a PF, is coming off a ton of injuries, doesn’t block many shots and isn’t a great one on one defender either. I think at this point we’ve got tons of offense and we need a real center.
Question is how do you match salaries for Chandler? We don’t have all that many people left. First sign Gortat and perhaps trade Oberto and Maxiell?
So is this Gordon starting at 9mil and Villanueva starting at 5mil? That leaves 5mil in space if it is. Do we have any confirmation as to what these numbers are yet? Is CV 35 or 40? In my mind, it would be safe to say that these are ascending contracts, which might leave us some wiggle under the cap to either sign or trade and absorb some salary.
I don’t think we have the MLE this year, right? Because we weren’t close enough to the cap to begin with? @Bill H. Does that sound about right?
(Bill H. confirmed later)
Questions:
Why didn’t we trade Amir for CV via a SnT if we really wanted him? Wouldn’t that have helped our cap situation?
Does anyone think we might be moving MFWB? I mean, he’s a small, small contract and a good player. Mind you, I don’t want to move him, but if we could turn him into a big man because a team wants to dump salary, do we do it?
That would leave us with Stuck/BG/Rip in the backcourt, and all of them would get a lot of minutes.
Sheed+Chauncey = Villen+Gordon, Jod youv’e turned wine to water…
It’s worse than that. Sheed+Billups+Dice+Amir into BG and CV
I like CV, I really do, but he needs to be paired with a defensive beast at Center, which we don’t have. And BG only makes sense if we’re moving someone else from the backcourt.
That said, I think Sheed was gone regardless, and he’s no longer the piece that puts us over the top anyway. He’s a 20-25 minute per game guy now, who should be a role player on a contender (please be SA and not Bos, Cle, or Orl, or I will die a little more inside).
As far as Villenueva is concerned, wtf man? Why all the Debbie Downers in this fucking thread? He can fill up the basket, and he rebounds the basketball. He’s fucking long and he’s quick. The best back to the basket player in free agency, and we get him 5 years for 35 million? WTF? It’s not like he’s breaking the bank with that deal, and he’s only fucking 24 years old.
I like CV, Boney, and I said so several weeks back. What I don’t like is that we don’t have a center. I would have much preferred CV + Gortat + hang onto our extra money and execute a trade during the season, using our extra cap to absorb salary dumps from other teams.
I’m not complaining about that. I’m complaining about the foundation being laid today. If BG and Villa are among the cornerstones, then the finished team is likely to be something completely contrary to what basketball in Detroit used to mean. It also will be a team that I have real trouble believing will ever win a championship. As Sauce reminded us again above, champion teams know how to defend.
Does anyone remember who our starting and backup SF’s were when we won our most recent chip?
And before the trade for Sheed, who was our starting PF?
I only ask because before Tay burst onto the scene, and before we traded for Sheed, it’s not as if we were a defensive force. Yes, we were a defense first team, I get that.
My point is to say this: Jod has put some very talented offensive pieces in place, and it seems to me that we are one or two trades away from putting a beastly, defensive-minded big into the mix. If we can do that, we could actually be very good.
And if we sign Avery (who’s my current favorite), he’s a defensively-minded guy, and BG and CV are young enough to learn how to play D.
It’s not over yet, in spite of most of us here, including me, not being crazy about these signings.
@kevin s.
Hmmm… I kinda figured it would be one or the other. As it stands, it looks like we need to make another move. Still, we added two above average players. If Dyess comes back, I would argue that we are the deepest team in the league.
I’m not about to go that far, but if Dice comes back, it helps… a LOT.
Does Dice start at C for us if he does come back?
@Bill H.
Boston, Cleveland, and San Antonio all badly want Rasheed. I’d bet that whoever signs him will be extremely glad they did.
I agree. Wherever he ends up, he’ll be a complementary player, which is the role he thrives in. Further, none of those teams need 35 minutes out of him; consequently, he’ll be fresh and ready when they need a contribution from him.
Can you imagine him spacing the floor for LBJ? Makes me sick to think of it….
Or, wait, am I wrong about that? The NBA.com article says all the cap space is gone. Well this is just wonderful.
Please tell me you’re wrong about that? The only hope we have is cap space left…
@ Garrett:
Thanks for posting DNP-MCIAFI’s. one more time!
MP, the 2 role argument works, as gordon plays mostly offense, and little defense, and thus, earns half what kobe does. I think it’s pretty fair.
Brgulker, wouldn’t pairing cv with brown kinda satisfy the defensive center need? I mean, what else is Cakey if not a defensive center?
what else is Cakey if not a defensive center?
A bump on a log?
From NBA Roundtable:
Detroit’s Future
In a word? Bleak
What is this team capable of next season?
This is a team struggling to win 45 games next season
Charlie Villanueva and Kwame Brown as their starting big men? Who is that frightening? Pistons fans that’s who!
What is going to happen to their defense? Villanueva is one of the worst defenders in the league at his position. Detroit loses Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess, and also Amir Johnson, that’s a lot of their big man defense out the door without any capable replacements coming in.
How about their medium-to-long term future?
It’s ugly.
The Pistons lack cap flexibility, and lack highly valued trade assets, so acquiring elite players will be incredibly difficult.
This is a team that either needs to be broken up now, or will be forced into a series of high risk acquisitions in the hope of making things work.
Summarize what the Pistons just did?
Detroit just boxed themselves in the corner.
They built a mediocre team and have made it very difficult for them to progress into a contender.
They are in trouble.
Unless, as is stated earlier in the article:
Pistons 2010 Cap Space
I reckon the Pistons have about $50 million tied up in salaries heading into that offseason. So they’ll only have around $8-10 million in cap room.
Of course, if they manage to trade Rip Hamilton or Tayshaun Prince for an expiring contract, the Pistons could get far enough below the cap to offer a max contract to someone.
Food for thought or nonsense?
I’d tell the author to step off the ledge. I still believe that about half the league would be alright with our “ugly” future.
Rip for Brand is interesting. There’s Laker/Mavs ups tempo and then there’s GS/NYK up tempo, so it depends on what “up tempo” we are planning on doing.
What about SnT Rip to Orl for Gortat & Redddick (salary filler)? Orl moves VC to the 3 and we get our starting 5 plus a guy on the other wing opposite BG who can flat out shoot.
Or Max for SnT Gortat depending on how much cap we’ve got left. then Dyess comes back (though I’d like to see him get a ring).
Stuck/MFWB
BG/AA
Tay/Daye/sharpe The Swede
CV/Summers/the Swede
Gortat/Kwame
I like that lineup. The trade solves Orl problem at the 4 with Lewis moving back to the 3. This works for both teams and depending on how much capspace we got left, we can afford to pay Gortat 7M-8M, clearly an overpay at this point, but, sometimes Joel, you just gotta say WTF.
What about SnT Rip to Orl for Gortat & Redddick (salary filler)? Orl moves VC to the 3 and we get our starting 5 plus a guy on the other wing opposite BG who can flat out shoot.
Or Max for SnT Gortat depending on how much cap we’ve got left. then Dyess comes back (though I’d like to see him get a ring).
I don’t think we have the money left for all that, do we? Maybe the first part (SnT) but not re-signing Dice after all that. Or am I wrong about that?
If so, I would take it.
And FWIW, I don’t think paying a starting C who is capable of getting a double double on a consistent basis (Gortat, if his potential pans out) is an overpayment.
In context, I’d rather see Gortat at 7 mil and CV at 7 mil, leaving 3-4 mil left for Dice than singing BG for 5/55.
I say we trade Walter Sharpe for LeBron. I mean seriously, who wouldn’t want a guy that doesn’t show up to practice on time, misses his flights and doesn’t have a jumpshot?
Rant
Does Jod not see the irony of signing another volume scoring SG? Didn’t we JUST try that? And didn’t it completely backfire? And didn’t we just lost 3 of our big men (Amir, Dice, Sheed)?
In other words, is the irony so damn thick that it’s not obvious to him?
IMO, he’s trying to re-create the Microwave. Fine. I’ll take that. But not for that money. But more importantly, you can afford to have volume scorers in the backcourt when you’ve got a Dennis Rodman, Bill Laimbeer, John Salley, James Edwards, etc. — in other words, if you’ve got a big man (or two or three!) who inhales rebounds and defends out of his mind, you can afford guards who score and don’t do much else.
/Rant
I agree that the roaster could be more balanced at this point, but the gordon signing adds a huge dimension to our team in that he’s a legit 3 point threat. CV/sheed is a wash in that regard, but we had nobody to spread the floor after the Cb trade last year. And we officially have a closer on our team again, too. Add another center to the mix and i think we’re ready to roll.
And I thought that the usage stats between rip and gordon (rips was higher) would’ve put the “gordon is a volume scorer” to bed. Has anyone here called rip a “volume scorer”? The last i saw, bg was taking the celtics to game 7 and making life for salomon/rose much easier. I think stuck has a break out year with gordon spacing the floor and taking the other teams best defender with him.
I also think that with Sheed & Dyess, we can do SnT with these guys. Since they were on our payroll last year, can’t we “exceed” the cap to re-sign our own guys and then do an SnT? It’s the only way Sheed approaches 8M (IMHO) and Dyess can get the most money that way to. Thugh I think MLE is going to be it for him.
Like Boney said, I’m not ready to go all David Carridine over these signings. We still got some money here and there and two guys that in order to get the most money would have to go thru us thru an SnT. Now, what do we want to where there going (??) is another story, but we still do have some options to improve.
Craig, perhaps you’re right. Maybe ‘volume scorer’ is the wrong word with the wrong connotations.
Obviously, BG is NOT AI. What concerns me, though, is that he seems to be similar to AI in ways that will cause the same problems.
Look, I love BG’s game on the offensive side of the ball (as long as he can keep his TO’s under control), BUT, he needs the ball to score, as does Stuckey, as does Rip. Further, he’s a bit of a ball stopper at times, as is Stuckey, as was AI, in that he dribbles too much. I also worry about him defensively, a lot actually, as I did with AI and still do about Stuckey.
Plus, we still have a gaping hole in the front court, a problem I thought we could have solved this off-season and seems much more difficult to solve now. In my view, that should have been our first priority — a big man who can defend (block shots), rebound, and score (in that order).
We got scoring and some rebounding out of CV — who I actually like at this price point, btw — but he’s not exactly an enforcer in the lane.
Perhaps we can trade for one of Utah’s big men. Or perhaps a SnT with Rasheed to Orlando or Cleveland for Gortat or Varejoke (please, God, no).
Utah is still appealing to me, because they’re losing at least one of those guys next off-season (assuming they do re-sign Milsap this season; I think they will); maybe we can get Okur or Boozer for something really, really cheap. Maybe.
Anyway, that’s a long way of saying this:
I don’t mind BG as much as I used to…. he’s growing on me. But not at his price point as a super sub, especially when we’ve done nothing to fill the gaping defensive hole in the middle.
And if everything shakes out for next summer, we’ll only have 8-10 million to work with in FA next summer, which is hardly anything relative to what other teams will have to work with.
I agree with those who are saying give it time, but I’m a bit of a pessimist by nature, and I can’t help but shake the feeling that we’ve spent all our money too fast on good players who don’t fill immediate needs.
Can we just chill a little here with all the woe-is-us ? jod CANT be that stupid to ignore the fact that yes we need big man. In a perfect world you would do all the trades in the order that you guys laid out, but the reality is never perfect. And we still haven’t lost Dyess and I’d love to have him come back as much as I want him to get a ring.
The NBA roundtable article hits the nail on the head. We are very, very fucked, especially in the medium to long-term, if we don’t make trades soon.
Here’s our cap situation without Gordon or CV, and without our rookies:
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/detroit.htm
So doing the math myself, between Rip/Gordon/Tay/CV/Max we will have about 43 million dollars committed in 2010-2011. Stuck, AA, and our current rookies, are the only other players under contract, let’s add their salaries- around 7m total.
That brings us to 50m in salary committed, which is only around 10m under the salary cap. That’s without re-signing Bynum. That’s with a frontcourt of only CV and Max. That is a situation we HAVE to avoid, even if it means trading Rip for peanuts.
There’s just no way to field a successful NBA team with so few resources committed to the frontcourt. It’s idiotic and would lead to disaster.
brgulker: I think Rip is at 11M?? (12M?) so if Gortat gets 7M and Reddick (still on his rookie contract which expires next year I think) is ~4M it’s a wash.
I also think we can exceed the cap to re-sign Dyess since he was with us last year. Tay for Kaman/Throton is now dead. And Gortat said he was looking for minutes so I think he’d be fine with reb/D/blocks and we’d only run a few playes for him each game.
I also think that with Sheed & Dyess, we can do SnT with these guys. Since they were on our payroll last year, can’t we “exceed” the cap to re-sign our own guys and then do an SnT? It’s the only way Sheed approaches 8M (IMHO) and Dyess can get the most money that way to. Thugh I think MLE is going to be it for him.
I think you’re right, MB, at least as far as my understanding of things goes; however, I’m not sure how much we salary we can sign over the cap to retain our own guys. And I’m not sure if we can do that with both guys, for that same reason.
In other words, let’s assume we have 3 mil. left in cap space. I don’t know if we can go 5 mil over to sign Sheed, even if it is SnT.
Bill H. probably knows, though.
Or he’ll at least pretend to know.
@ Joel, I think Bill H. has a good understanding of the salary cap.
=========================
From Skeets:
“[Marcin] Gortat, who has never made huge money and wasn’t part of a college recruiting process, seemed touched when Morey showed him how hundreds of messages were pouring in. By mid-afternoon Wednesday, Gortat had received more than 2,000 messages telling him how he’d love being a Rocket. There’s also a tough-love side to this story. Gortat’s agent mentioned wanting a full mid-level exception. That amounts to around $30 million over five years. The Rockets aren’t offering nearly that much and apparently aren’t prepared to go higher. They’ve assigned a value to Gortat, and if, say, the Mavericks are offering more, the Rockets are prepared to lose him.”
I still don’t think MLE is too high for Gortat, if his potential comes to fruition.
Do we have the financial wiggle room to do a SnT and take back that much salary?
@ brgulker:
I have no idea how possible a SnT is with Orlando, but if we could pull it off, that would really brighten our prospects.
I think we would also have to ask if Orlando could afford a SnT… wasn’t thinking about that. I know they are dreadfully close to the luxury tax as it is.
Or what about this:
If Boston wants Sheed and still wants to move Rondo, what about Stuckey + Sheed (SnT)for Rondo? Does that (or a variant) work under the cap and regs?
Hell, if he is only asking for $30 mil over 5 years that only works out to a starting salary of $4 mil! We could just sign him outright if that is the case.
@ brgulker: it would depend on what we resigned sheed for. But it would be possible i suppose. I still don’t see how that helps our frontcourt problem. Stuckey isn’t our problem, our lack of bigs is the problem.
I do think a SnT with Orlando involving Sheed and Gortat might be something worth exploring though. But like i mentioned above, if his asking price is only $30 mil over 5 years we could just feasibly sign him outright.
I think Jod looked at the landscape and decided to get scoring first. How many times last year did we look absolutely lost? Alot in part due to MCIAFI, I know.
It goes back to, do you spend your practice time worrying about stopping the other team or do you make them worry about stopping you?
I guarantee not many teams last year spent time worrying about how to stop us. I mean, hell, that’s alot of what led Orl to get VC and effectively take themselves out of the running for Hedo. Given the playoffs Hedo had, even Orl realized that you just can’t let the other team have a guy who can play free safety. A shot here or there, a lucky bounce or bucket and Orl wins the chip (for simplicity sake, just roll with me here). Hedo might be the finals MVP (though Stern steps in and gives it to Howard). Does Orl still make the VC trade? I think so, if for no other reason that Hedo’s contract demand goes higher.
Cup half full: Let’s say instead of CV we signed Gortat for 7-8M. I’d rather take CV’s numbers and extrapolate to 36mpg vs. Gortat beccause the variance of error will be much greater because of the small sample size of Gortat’s numbers. Gortat for us let’s say average 15/10. But we still don’t have a 4 to stretch the D. Right now we’ve got a 4 who can stretch the D and is a decent rebounder and need a banging 5 with some post moves. With Gortat, we got a guy who can bang and will score inside but need a 4 who can stretch the D.
I submit it’s easier to find the 5 we need at this point (Chris Mihm, he serves a purpose) than the 4 we would have needed had we signed Gortat. Because I can’t think of any 4’s out there right now that would fit that need. And we need scoring. And except Kwame, I think no matter who you put in at the 5 right now (Gortat included), we still will only need 12/6 to be a decent team.
As for 2010, every freakin’ owner has lulled their fan base into thinking they’re going to spend money in 2010 and get someone. There will be too few players chasing too much money which will lead to someone being overpaid. So Bosh goes to Mia. Wade & Bosh at max eats up 40M of 57M in capspace. 17M left to fill out the remaining 10 spots? Bron to NY? Along with Nash? Nash is looking for 10M or so, or even 8M. I’d take Gordon at ~10M before I’d pay Nash for what we need at this point.
Amare? He hits the lottery and gets close to max, let’s say 17M/year. Given what we need would we rather have CV @ 8M or Amare at 17M? I submit CV because of what we need. Would I rather have BG at 10M or B-Diddy at 65M/5yrs (weird example)? I’ll take BG.
Let’s say the rotation does work and BG/Rip get 15pts each, 3 rebs and 3 assts. That’s 30/6/6 for 21M. Given their ability and BG to hit shots, I submit that’s close to Kobe numbers for Kobe money. Not saying a perfect analogy, but for what we’re getting, needing and paying, there isn’t anyone close to getting that kind of production. What’s VC making? 18M?? I still take BG/Rip combo. And between teh two (more so BG) we’ve got a guy who can on any nite go off for 30+ and is always a threat to do so.
Right now it’s easier to find a 10/5 #5 than a 15/7 4 who can stretch the floor when money is factored in. Laugh all you will, but Mihm at 3M we’ll get 10/5 if he’s our starting 5. Even Dyess last 1/2 of year was ?? 12/9. We’d shit our pants if we can get that from someone right now at the 5. And all you really need after that are 2 guys that can come in, play ~10 minutes a nite and not hurt you at the 4 and/or 5.
The point to remember is for what we are getting, + age, + ability to give a good effort on the D end, we made out pretty good. More importantly, we didn’t overpay and to wait for next year somebody will most definitely overpay or go wanting.
@ brgulker: it would depend on what we resigned sheed for. But it would be possible i suppose. I still don’t see how that helps our frontcourt problem. Stuckey isn’t our problem, our lack of bigs is the problem.
I do think a SnT with Orlando involving Sheed and Gortat might be something worth exploring though. But like i mentioned above, if his asking price is only $30 mil over 5 years we could just feasibly sign him outright.
I was thinking of Rondo because Boston expressed interest in moving him, and in my view, Rondo > Stuckey. Further, he’s a “pure” PG who could really make Rip and BG shine.
With Gortat, I haven’t heard anything from any sources that have suggested that we are interested in signing him — which I just can’t figure out (unless there’s something on the back burner that we just don’t know about).
umm… no
Once Gordon and Villenueva are signed, Detroit has renounced their “Bird Rights” to sign Rasheed and Iverson for whatever they want.
So, Detroit can only sign Rasheed or AI for whatever is left under the cap, and then trade them for something like 125% their cap hit. Then Detroit can only sign guys for the LLE or Veteran’s minimum and trade them under the same parameters.
So hoping to sign and trade Rasheed for Gortat isn’t going to work. Unless Orlando only pays Gortat something in the neighborhood of $3m next season, which is a relative bargain for a big man who they really like.
brgulker: I think we can exceed the cap to resign as long as we don’t hit the lux cap, but I think you can even hit it if you’re willing to pay. The cap is ~57M and the lux cap is ~71M, so it’ inbetween that soft spot that you can resign your own guys, I believe.
Cup half full: Do I want Bosh at 22/10 at 20M or CV at 15/6 for 8M? I’ll take CV.
Good analysis, MB. But I still want some defense, and I don’t see how we get it without bringing a new C into the fold.
But I’m guessing that’s what you’re saying, just more eloquently than I am.
@Boney: Thanks for the clarification. I thought there was a “cap hold” for Sheed/AI until we officially renounce them. Are they’re “hold” for the vets minimum at this point or some formula based on what they earned last year?
@MB
Cup half full: Do I want Bosh at 22/10 at 20M or CV at 15/6 for 8M? I’ll take CV.
I cosign, and I even think you’re vastly underestimating CV with the 15/6 numbers too. Pretty sure with 30+ mpg, we should be looking at somewhere in the 18/9 range, which, again, is a BARGAIN at $7-8mil/yr.
As you so eloquently put into that longer post from a couple minutes ago, for the production we’re getting at the price we’re getting it for, it’s really just flat-out false to say we “overpaid.” In fact, I’d go so far as to say that CV’s and Kwame’s contracts are actually two of the biggest bargains in all the NBA right now.
Once again, Jod has made it clear that if there’s one mistake he doesn’t make, it’s overpaying for his guys.
Once again, Jod has made it clear that if there’s one mistake he doesn’t make, it’s overpaying for his guys.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I sound like a broken record by now, I’m sure, but I just wish BG were a dominant big, not a scoring guard.
But there is still time.
Random trade idea:
Rip+Tay+AA+Sharpe for Amare+Jason Richardson
It works according to espn trade machine: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mvymv3
They’d save some money and get talent back for Amare, and we’d get a very good big man.
I’d rather not take back Richardson, but unloading his contract is one of the reasons I could see PHX possibly doing a deal like this, though it would leave them really thin in the frontcourt so they’d probably prefer GS’s deal if it’s still on the table.
@ Gabe:
I can’t help but wonder if that’s a short-sighted move, as it would seem to undercut our ability to extend Amare long-term (taking back J-Rich’s contract, that is).
I just don’t see how we’re in the market for Amare/Bosh/Boozer anymore. CV is most definitely NOT playing SF for us. He’s 6′11″ for Jod’s sake. We need a bruiser at C. That’s the move that we make. If we somehow get Amare or Bosh or whoever, 1) it’s a redundant move at this point and 2) they’re going to ask for so much money next year that it will fuck our cap for years to come. I’d rather roll the dice with CV/Daye(who should be splitting minutes between the 3 and 4)/Max and try to get a dominant(ish) defensive C to pair with them. If we move any combo of Rip/Tay for an Amare/Bosh/Boozer, what do we do with CV? Bench? You can’t start two scoring PF’s unless you’re 2006 Phoenix, and they didn’t really do shit, did they?
@ Joel: “We need a bruiser at C.” We’ve got one in Kwame already. We just need to fill in or start ahead a 5 that can put up 8/8. I think with consistent minutes, Kwame can do that. If he didn’t shoot 50% from the line, he could get 8/8 in his sleep.
And in a roundabout way, I’d rather have CV@8M than Amir @ 4M. So going thru the process of acquiring Oberto/waive and seeing Amir go isn’t painful.
We are a much better offensive team now, we played shitty defense last year. I submit it’s easier to improve the latter and not the former when presented equally together.
We have improved and have an opportunity to continue. the ball is rolling in the correct direction, just not as fast as some would like.
@ Joel:
Throughout Amare’s career he’s been a lot better when played at center. He’s kinda like Shawn Marion, who looks like he should play SF, but has always been way more productive as a PF. Amare looks like a prototypical PF, but he’s always been more productive at C.
This is just from last season, but he’s been better at C every year of his career:
http://www.82games.com/0809/08PHO15.HTM#bypos
If we’re going all offense, no defense anyway (which it seems like Joe is set on doing), we might as well get the ultimate all offense no defense player.
The most likely possibilities have me sad/worried or both.
First, let’s say Detroit doesn’t make another big move. As everyone has said, that leaves us woefully undermanned in the big man department and overstuffed at SG (and hey, didn’t that work out well last year?). So that’s bad.
The only scenario that solves those problems is trading Rip (or Gordon, I guess, although that would be odd), and maybe others, to get a big. Losing Rip would make me sad in and of itself, because I’m a Rip fan.
Yeah, if we got a really good big who could play the 5 with a real post offensive game and intimidating defense, that would — at this point — be good for the team. But who is out there that realistically fits that description who we could get for Rip? And I don’t want to trade Tay too, because as others have mentioned, then we have nobody to play the 3.
Maybe something good will happen. Weird, one-sided exchanges do occur in the NBA (cough, Pau Gasol). But it’s hard for me to see how Detroit is elite in the next couple of years without something like that dropping into their laps.
Kwame needs to drink that Ben Wallace aggro juice, if he can emerge as a monster defender this late in his career I’ll upholster the inside of my ‘84 Regal with nothing but his jerseys.
Joel, that was mean! What did I do?
The answer to brgulker’s question is that, although we could do sign-and-trades with Sheed and Dyess, we cannot exceed the salary cap to sign them and then trade them. We waived Sheed’s “Bird rights” (which would have given us the right to exceed the cap to sign him) as a condition of getting all the cap space we’ve just used.
We couldn’t exceed the cap with Dyess because we lost his Bird rights when he was traded, bought out, and re-signed with the Pistons. You can only get Bird rights to a player when he hasn’t been waived or changed teams as a free agent for at least three consecutive seasons. Dyess became a free agent after his Nuggets buyout.
Sign-and-trades where you can exceed the cap only work when Bird rights are involved.
Just trying to help.
Ah, Boney already covered most of this. Sorry about that. Catching up slowly on many words written.
@Bill
I wasn’t being mean. I was just pointing out that fact that because nobody here (other than you) really seems to know all the little ins and outs of the CBA, it would be very easy (and probably tempting) to claim all types of false facts we might otherwise be ignorant to.
Not saying you do that. I just have a good friend who does that shit ALL the time, and it’s annoying/hilarious. “Oh, you’ve never actually read ‘The Metamorphosis’? Well here’s the gist of it…”
You sound smart and use good grammar/punctuation/spelling, so I tend to buy what you’re selling usually.
Rivers, Allen, Garnett and Pierce are all breathing hard on ‘Sheed, I really don’t want to see him go there, although the resulting AF1s would be rather illmatic in appearance
It’s really not very hard stuff - spend half an hour with the Wiki on the CBA and you’ll be fine.
Interesting reading:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/-Net-reaction-Pistons-land-Ben-Gordon-Charlie-?urn=nba,174362
@ Skylar: Well, I’d like to see sheed eat a little crow, because Bos isn’t giving him 8M. I’d like to take a flier on Powe. Can you imagine meeting the celts late in the season between those two. I think you could buy alot of loyalty from Powe right now giving him some love. Not that his loyalty is for sale, but I think it’d be a no loss proposition. Especially if there’s a team option next year at a significant increase.
Guy has an incredible story, from what I’ve read great locker room presence and does help fill a need. Do it Jod!!
Completely and utterly off topic, but Ron Artest’s Twitter screen name is– are you ready for this?–
96TruwarierQB
Jod what a fucktard. Can he seriously not spell his own nickname right? It’s not like “96TruWarriorQB” wasn’t available or something.
That’s how he’s always spelled it. I remember years ago with the Pacers he had “Tru Warier” buzzed into his hair.
I think it has something to do with the music label he imagines himself having. Tru Warier Records maybe?
If that’s the case, I still think he’s a fucktard.
Powe is Piston material. Call up Arnie Kander and watch him get out the pair of pliers and blowtorch.
I am sorry pistons fans…BG nad CV dont play defense. Everyone else will just be standing around watching BG do his dribbling thing and hoist up an ill advised shot.
Get ready for his 3point shot fast break! thats right he likes to pull up for a 3 on a fast break, not attacking the hoop. lOL
Bigs on the cheap (from FanHouse’s “Ten Players Under 30 Fighting For Their NBA Lives”):
Sean May
Johan Petro
Sheldon Williams
Stromile Swift
Robert Swift
It’s an unequivocal “NO” on the Swifts, but the other three intrigue me, especially at league minimum-ish contracts. Would it really hurt that much to throw a mil at Sheldon Williams to see if he can rebound and play a little D off the bench? And Sean May has a ton of skills as a big, even if he’s out of shape (and he claims that he’s in the best shape of his life this offseason). Petro is a legit 7-footer with a jump shot.
Seriously, for non-guaranteed, cheap contracts, I’m okay with any of those three guys, and especially Sheldon Williams. Yeah, he’s a FASbaby, but he’s been healthy and he’s a big body. He could be an extremely cheap backup big at literally no financial risk.
Joel, are you assuming:
1) Kwame’s good enough to be our starter?
2) That our current lineup is going to be a winning team with Kwame as our starter?
I’m asking because you said “back-up” with respect to Williams.
I think we need to add Robert Swift to meet the new NBA “minimum tats on a team rule.” Though, we may have a carryforward from AI last season.
MBinSoCal,
Detroit is only able to sign both BG and CV because they renounce their Bird Rights to Sheed and AI.
I may be wrong, but I believe the “cap hold” is for their previous year salary plus a percentage increase although I don’t know what the increase is. So AI and Rasheed together would keep Detroit over the cap unless their rights were renounced.
Detroit can re-sign AI and Rasheed but only if those 2 jokers were willing to take a pay cut and play for a lot less money. With Boston making the moves on Sheed and who knows making moves on AI, I doubt they’ll be back in Detroit.
I look for Joe D to acquire another big, and then once the season begins and we see guys like Kurt Thomas, Joe Smith, etc get bought out I believe Joe D will try and sign them like he did when CWebb came to town.
I believe Chris Wilcox could get a strong look from Joe D. I believe Varejao will get a look from Joe. All these guys who have no shot at getting the MLE are still in play for Detroit (Wilcox, Varejao, etc). I like Wilcox, I think he’d be great off the bench. If Dyess would sign the VM again (which I doubt) that has all the makings to be a solid front line.
Stuck/Bynum
Rip/BG/Afflalo
Tay/Afflalo/Daye/Summers
Villenueva/Maxiell/Wilcox/Dyess
Brown/Dyess/Wilcox
That’s a tough frontcourt, especially when you get to our bench guys. Wilcox is solid, we know what Dyess brings, we know Max…
I think Summers has the ability to step right in and make an immediate impact on this team. He’s a good size forward, he’s got strength, and his range is ok… I don’t know how the D League works but I could see Daye getting dumped to the D League for a bit to let the upperclassman Summers do some work in the bigs.
@Skylar
Shit, blowtorch and pliers? All Kander needs is a soldering kit and some paperclips… and maybe a bandaid
@brgulker
All we need Kwame to do is play 25 minutes a night. He can start and play 8 minutes in the 1st and 8 minutes in the 3rd and come in to give breathers as necessary.
@Joel
I believe Shelden Williams is too short for us. In all honesty, I think Detroit needs a guy 6′10+ whether he’s a pure center or not.
Rip for Tyson Chandler works in the Trade Machine. Anybody like that idea? The starting lineup would be pretty impressive.
I honestly believe that Afflalo is going to be the main backup at 2 this season…
Otherwise it’s a waste to keep a guy like him around if he’s not going to play. Can get value while he still has some…
Thanks Boney. I thought it was different since Sheed & AI are UFA’s so I don’t know how they could be counted against the cap like CV would have been had Milw made a qualifying offer as a RFA. I mean, isn’t the purpose of a being a UFA in your contract so you can kiss your current team goodbye without them having the ability to kinda hold you hostage? And on the flip side being able to resign your guy while going over the cap? I just thought it was different.
Yeah, give Arnie some duct tape and he’ll have Powe ready for training camp. .. McKandar. . the McGyver of NBA trainers.
@ Boney:
So do we, or do we not have Bird rights with Sheed? I’m confused as all get out about that right now.
They wouldn’t want a guy like Rip with a big contract right now. And even if they did, I wouldn’t do that just yet. I think Joe could field a better trade and get more value for Rip than just Chandler. Most likely NO will give Chandler away for expiring contracts or young talent.
You could probably send Rip off for a guy like Troy Murphy or Emaka Okafor. Both teams need a shooting guard.
@ Jamison: I like it, but NO is looking to cut money, not extend 12M for another 2 years beyond Chandler’s deal.
With rip, i don’t see much need for either mfwb or AA. Our back up pg should be more of a facilitator then mfwb, and aa isn’t going to find much time behind the other guards and daye eating minutes at the 3.
@ Ali: I like the Okafor idea, but who’d be their 5? Not familiar with their lineup. And I think Rip would appreciate playing for Larry again.
Before we waive by to MFWB and/or AA, I’d like to see Rip and BG make it thru a season without a tweaked ankle/hammy/groin/add your body part here.
We need somebody like MFWB to deform the defenses.
@ Ali: I like the Okafor idea, but who’d be their 5? Not familiar with their lineup. And I think Rip would appreciate playing for Larry again.
Very interesting idea.
Idea:
1) Resign Dice. If we do, then,
2) Trade Kwame and Rip for Okafor
Gives them a serviceable 5 and Rip.
===================
I still think MFWB has trade value. I love the guy, and it would be cool to keep him, but I think we could add him as sweetener to another deal or trade him for value. But I confess that I don’t understand all the restrictions on trades and salaries.
I wonder how LB would deal with Jod in terms of a trade. He does call the shots for the bobs, and i’m not sure how those two get along anymore.
Larry will do what MJ says he will do. The question is, when Bob Johnson starts taking offers for the bobs, do the new owners think they have a better team with, say, Kwame/Rip or Okafor?
And didn’t Okafor sign a deal last summer for around 12M/per, close to Rip’s? I don’t think we need to include Kwame, unless they ask but then they’d be taking back more salary and don’t know if they have the cap space.
On an unsurprising note, it appears there’s not much market for Marion. I know toronto would like him back, but with everyone flying everywhere to be stroked, has anyone bought Marion a ticket to anywhere yet? Dude is going to be pissed when he has to settle for the MLE and he might not even get that depending on how the rest of the FAs fall into place. A lesson out there to you boys and girls: Your PG matters!!
@Ali: Please no Troy Murhpy. I like him as a 6th man, but definitely not as a starting center- especially next to CV31. I live in Indy. That guy is the worst post defender in the league. His #’s are awesome in the Pacers run ‘n gun offense, but he can’t stop anybody. As much as Gordon and CV31 have been maligned for their defense, he is much worse and less likely to become a decent defender, due to his age and lack of athleticism. He’d be especially bad playing center full-time.
I’d love to get Okafor, but I just don’t see Charlotte going for that without getting a big guy in return.
I’d love to get our hands on Okafor, absolutely. If there’s any way we can swing that trade, do it in a heartbeat. Good call.
If we end up trading for Tyson Chandler, I will add “Fire Jod NOW” to the end of every comment I write, a hat tip to Mike. There is no logic to support having him on this team. Even Kwame Brown is a better rebounder than Tyson Chandler, and he costs $8 million less WITHOUT the injury concerns.
“@ Boney:
So do we, or do we not have Bird rights with Sheed? I’m confused as all get out about that right now.”
Technically right now we still do. After July 8th, when these guys officially sign we won’t because we would’ve waived those rights in order to open up salary to sign these guys.
Sheed can be signed and traded but not for more than what we have left under the cap after signing CV and BG. Otherwise teams would be able to circumvent the cap and build super all star teams every offseason.
We don’t have Bird rights for:
McDyess
Sheed
AI
The only one I care about at this point is McDyess… but from what I read of the comments last night, it seems like he’s at least considering Detroit still… which is more than I can say I thought he’d consider.
I believe trading for Okafor would go a long way to help this team make a strong run in the postseason as early as next season.
Stuckey
BG
Tay
V
Okafor
MFWB
Afflalo
Daye/Summers
Maxiell/Dyess?
Brown
I believe Dyess may come back if that’s the group on the floor. Plus the team would be really young.
Anybody think the Clippers would bite on a 3-way deal with the Pacers involving Dunleavy Jr to LAC, Rip to Indy, and Camby or Kaman to DET?
@MBinSoCal
Yeah, that’s kinda layman’s terms how it worked… Sheed and AI can say “go blow JOD” and sign somewhere else for less but until the team gives up their Bird Rights, there’s still a cap hold.
Unlike RFA, there’s a cap hold for his salary just like on the UFA only then the team also has the ability to match an offer sheet and then THAT salary
Jamison,
If Detroit somehow got Camby, they’d be able to acquire another FA at/near whatever the MLE is going to be..
that would be nice, but unlikely.
@ Jamison: Perhaps, but Dunleavy ( I think) is a no go until Jan I think and then they don’t even know for sure. I think I remember reading his career might me in jeopardy.
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-42-10/Joe-Dumars-and-Maligned-Guards.html
TrueHoop on the Ben Gordon signing and comparing it to the Billups/Hamilton signings of 2002.
Yeah… I’m just throwing stuff against the wall here. I also wouldn’t be too thrilled with basically handing Rip over to the Pacers, either.
I like this quote:
“The hardest thing is to convince people that fantasy basketball and running a team are two different things,” he said. “You can’t just write down names that look good on paper. We’ve seen in the past that’ll get you a ways, but not all the way.”
I believe more than a few of us can take a lot away from that statement
Some clarifications:
- The Pistons do not have the MLE to use this year. Next year, they will be able to use it (and can spend it all on a good player if they want).
The MLE is for teams who start the off-season above the salary cap.
- The Pistons do not have the rights to Sheed, AI or Dyess. They cannot use them in sign and trades. They can resign Dyess for whatever cap space they have left after signing BG and CV (approx. 3-5mil). Or if they use that money on someone else, they can try offering the veteran’s minimum.
I think Okafor would be a nice fit here, but I can’t see the Bobcats doing that. They just drafted Gerald Henderson and also have Felton, DJ and Raja as guards, while Okafor is their only productive center, unless you consder last years pick Ajinca one. Then again, they are the Bobcats so they don’t always make the smartest decisions.
Also…
If the Pistons trade Rip, they can take back his salary plus whatever cap space is left. This will be around (15mil to 17mil).
There are teams with cap trouble that will be willing to trade a big man as long as the Pistons take back 17mil. If they are over the luxury tax threshold that will save a team 10mil.
For example: Rip for Boozer + Korver, Rip for Chandler + Morris Peterson, etc.
Boney that quote is very true, but most of us here are smart enough to realize that stats alone don’t show the value of a player. That’s why the majority of us are upset by the BG signing even though he’s a great scorer.
Okafor is a great defensive center, albiet overpaid due to his lack of offensive ability. However this new team has a very explosive offense, they just need a Bird Man or Big Ben of their own to stop the penetration.
Darshan you can only take back 125% of the salary you put out. You can’t just take back $10 million to make a deal work. However I would be intrigued by a Rip +etc for Boozer and Korver. Both those guys have expiring contracts and could very well turn into Amare.
Guys we should get over Bosh right now. Because no matter how much money you offer him, he’s going to Miami (or possibly Cleveland for the right $$$). This is well known, especially since they’re all great friends and that he and Wade have the same agent.
Ali…we are still under the cap (3-5M), so we don’t have to be within 125% salary match. We can take on an additional 3-5M of salaries in any trade.
Ali, you probably didn’t read my whole post. The Pistons will likely have 3-5mil in cap space left over. So they can take back that much more money that what they trade out. So if they trade Kwame at 4mil, they can take back 7-9mil (depending on what the cap space is).
That being said, looking at Rip’s salary and that of the other players I mentioned, the trades I mentioned are not workable. I think Rip is pretty untradeable with that contract.
Rip for Boozer and Brewer is more workable. It doesn’t save Utah a lot of money this year, but Korver comes off the books for them for 2010 to give them some payroll relief (and they can still keep Milsap).
DWill, Rip, AK47, Milsap, Okur is a pretty sick lineup and probably worth having an expensive payroll for a year.
http://twitter.com/CV31/status/2440266628
Why would we want Boozer now? Unless CV is playing the 3, then moving Tay for?
I still think there will be some teams out there trying not to pay the lux tax. But because the “rebate” will be much smaller than in the past, it’s not as much of an aggregate hit now if they so choose.
If we’re looking for a 5 that will clog the lane, play solid D and give us 10/5. . . we’re paying 4M for one right now.
@QD:
Both Utah and Detroit would be a lot better in that scenario. I love Brewer, too– he and MFWB would be deadly off the bench on D.
@MP
Is it shallow of me to like Charlie V 10x more than already did (which was a lot) solely because of his most recent Tweet?
How about Chauncey (@cbillups7) RT’ing @CV31’s Tweet:
http://twitter.com/cbillups7/status/2440789470
Kinda heart-breaking and awesome all at the same time.
More than anything, I’m just really happy that we signed a couple guys that actually WANT to be in Detroit and seem genuinely excited about the organization and its goals. I’ll take that over a malcontent “superstar” every day of the week.
Is it shallow of me to like Charlie V 10x more than already did (which was a lot) solely because of his most recent Tweet?
I was wondering the same thing when I tweeted:
this: http://twitter.com/brgulker/status/2440635598
and this: http://twitter.com/brgulker/status/2440833069
Good point, Joel. That’s a good foundation to have, to be sure.
And I also like him more now that he mentioned he has family in Burlington and Toronto. Awesome.
Random stat thing- Maybe Joe was so enamored with Ben Gordon because he saw a lot of himself in Ben’s game.
Here’s a player comparison of Joe’s first five seasons with Ben’s first five:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=gordobe01&y1=2009&p2=dumarjo01&y2=1990
In a couple of important ways they’re fairly similar players, especially in their shooting ability. Maybe Joe thinks Ben can eventually play more PG, the same way Joe slowly transitioned from SG to PG, or he sees Ben and Stuck as being more interchangeable (in a good way) than Stuck and Rip would be.
My biggest knock on Gordon was his whinyness, but the Bulls are run by imbeciles, if he wants to turn a new leaf over in the (313), I’m all for it.
Gabe you have it backwards. Dumars played PG in college and transitioned to SG in the NBA. Later after Isiah retired, they moved him back on the ball; however by that time, he no longer was a savy point guard because he simply never learned how to fully run an NBA offense.
Also Dumars was drafted because he was a lock down defender on top of a player with Gordon’s offensive talent. You may be onto something, Joe may have signed him for that same reason and intends to turn him into a defender. I have no idea.
The article to which Birdman linked makes a very good point. CB and Ben Wallace were not expected to become championship-caliber players, nor was Rip, nor was Tay. But Jod was able to pull off a trade that added the wildcard, which did put over the top in Sheed. And that move didn’t happen until the trade deadline.
Obviously, Jod’s gambling he can pull something like this off over the next 6-18 months, because any idiot can tell that the roster as is good, but only good, not great.
brgulker, I too really loved the CV tweet and the Chauncey retweet. That warms my Detroit heart.
And I couldn’t agree more, Joel, about how important it is to add guys who want to be in Detroit and are committed to the franchise and to winning. I don’t think we’d have got that attitude from Carlos Boozer.
Even if I’m not at all sold on the team’s direction right now, I do like the two new acquisitions personally, as human beings. They seem like good guys, and that matters. You want to have guys on your team who are fun to root for.
I don’t mind the signings of Gordon and Villanueva. I still want Gortat, though.
Gordon is probably overpaid, but Villanueva probably isn’t.
All this is nice, but don’t forget Primoz Brezec was uber fired up to be in the D and he didn’t do diddly squat.
Matt Watson just tweeted that Gortat is signing an offer sheet in Dallas. Darn.
Although Natalie re-tweeted a rumor that Boozer has asked to be traded… and someone thinks that means Detroit has something to offer for him.
Natalie from Need4Sheed, that is.
Bulls never made Gordon an offer?
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4302507&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines
“”I mean, they didn’t pursue me at all,” Gordon said. “They didn’t even make an offer, so it was pretty much a one-man race.”
Gordon was reminded that the Bulls said re-signing him was a priority.
“It is what it is,” he said. “Like I just told you, there was no offer made. So you guys can put it together. I’m happy about my new situation now. I’m looking forward to it.”"
Rip for Boozer and CJ Miles works. If Utah can turn around and trade Korver’s expiring contract to a team under the cap, they could come out of the off-season under the luxury tax AND with a better team.
brgulker, can you post that link above Ben Gordon’s locker?
Per Hollinger chat and I assume he’s plugged in better vs. salary than what we’ve heard regarding Charlie V signing:
John Hollinger (3:20 PM)
Want to see what answer Joe D. comes up with at center before I answer the latter question — He may re-sign McDyess or he may keep the $4 mil in cap space he has to take on a contract (i.e, he can trade Kwame’s $4 mil and take back a player making $8 mil). As for Charlie, I thought that was fair value considering his youth and the year he had last season.
brgulker, looks like Joe paid a little more for Gordon than he needed to, huh?
@brgulker
After Detroit signed CV and Gordon you had to realistically realize that there was no chance of signing Gortat right?
Gulk, I read that too. I thought to myself, “When we play CHI, he’s gonna go Gilbert Arenas on they asses”
I believe Phoenix would bite on a trade offer of Rip, Kwame, and next year’s first round pick, maybe along with Jerebko or someone for Amare. Rip could play alongside JR in the run-n-gun system, with nash getting him the ball.
Pistons could then sign Amare to a near max contract for about 5 years, 18 mill a year, starting at 16 mill. Trade Tay’s expriing contract at the trade deadline a year and a half from now and let Daye take over for cheap.
Anyone like this idea/think it would work? It would benefit our present and future greatly.
@ Cody: What do we do with CV? Move him to the 3? or is Amare our new 5?
Which I don’t like him at the 5 so much. Between him, CV & Tay/Daye, we get drilled by a physical team on the boards IMHO.
Amare would have to be our new 5…i know it isn’t great, but it’s by FAR better than what we’re trying to do as of now. I think another good option would be Oden, Rudy Fernandez, and Raef Lafrentz’s expiring contract for Rip Hamilton, Kwame, and one of our rookies (Walter Sharpe). We could then have a young, true, defensive center in Oden, along with a young, sweet-shooting 6th man in Fernandez, with the ability to play a little in 2010 free agency…this option probably won’t ever be even brought up in real life tho lol
Cody: Raef LaFrentz’s contract already expired this summer.
@brgulker
After Detroit signed CV and Gordon you had to realistically realize that there was no chance of signing Gortat right?
Of course. Just continuing to bitch about the fact that we didn’t go after him.
Hollinger’s quote makes me think we’re still likely to trade Kwame, a serviceable big man with a reasonably priced expiring contract, and we can take almost double his contract back in return.
No way we’re getting Oden. No way. And I’d rather have Pryz anyway.
The more I think about this, the more I think that this is a two-year plan.
Maybe we land a big man this year, maybe not. But it’s more likely than not that we can land one before the 2010 season begins.
Paience is going to be a virtue.
@brgulker: Yeah. I kinda read that into it also. The fact that he thinks that Jod can do that and taken at face value he knows what the first year money is makes me think he might be plugged into something.
I don’t think Port gives/trades Pryzbilla until they’re sure about Oden’s health and NBA ability since he hasn’t had a chance to show much. Who else out there might be available at around 8M? Camby is the only one I can think of. But after the ZBo trade, I read where they’ll be around 10M under the cap next season and since both contracts expire this year, it’s a push. Personally, I’d rather see Dyess sign for 1 year at 4M and then give him some more next year if he feels like we’re moving in the right direction or we’d have around 8M next year taking Kwame’s contract into account.
@brgulker - too much competition and money for a guy who hasn’t proven really anything. Plus, it’s no guarantee that Orlando won’t match.
@Cody - why would Portland give up that package? They need a SF, they’ve got a SG. So to tie up $11m at SG when Brandon Roy is going to get paid soon is kind of stupid. No offense.
Could Orlando do a sign-and-trade, Gortat for Kwame? The Magic will need a backup center, and Kwame’s contract is both reasonable and expiring.
That doesn’t help much with big man depth, but it should at least upgrade the talent level. Boy, I sure wish the Pistons had drafted a quality rebounder this year. Too bad there weren’t any available…
@Boney…B. Roy would move to SF in my situation…I believe he can play the 1, 2, or 3 extrememly well.
and sorry, i was looking at trade machine for Raef’s contract info.
okay, so portland is out, but i stil think we could trade for Amare.
@Birdman-lmao about the quality rebounder…but the Mavs have already signed Gortat to an offer sheet, so it’s either Mavs or Magic if they match for Gortat.
Can Kander duct tape Yao together?
@QD:
Your analogy of CV and Dirk’s similar skill sets (but not ability, as you and LB clarified) is well represented statistically. See per 36:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=villach01&y1=2009&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2004
(i cherry-picked that season for Dirk, as it was a slow one– and the season before Avery became his coach)
This doesn’t mean anything, per se, but certainly some fun numbers to look at for “what if” fantasizing
Sportsline.com reporting Artest to the Lakers. Ugh.
@Cody
But isn’t Gortat an unrestricted free agent? Dallas can give him an offer and if he signs it he becomes a Maverick. My impression was that he was going back to Orlando to ask if they can beat the offer. I hope that the Pistons at least try to figure out what the offer is, to see if they can get into the bidding.
wow, the comparisons per 36 minutes for Nowitzki at 25 and CV at 24 are extremely close. nice comparison MP
@ Ali:
RE: Joe’s position in college.
He was definitely a pure shooting guard. His college stats are near the bottom of this page:
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=DumarJo01
Over his entire college career Joe averaged 2.8 assists per game.
I think there’s a good chance that Joe thinks of Gordon as someone who can transition into more of a PG (or at least develop more PG abilities/skills), as Joe did himself, which would make Gordon an even better long-term fit in a backcourt with Stuckey.
@Cody:
Further comparing those seasons (via 82games), Villanueva took 36% of his shots inside, vs. Nowitzki took only 17% inside. Comparably, Rasheed Wallace took 23% of his shots inside. Note, however, that Villanueva was noteably less accurate on those inside shots than either.
One other thing to note– a player of that skill set (a big who can shoot from outside AND in the paint) typically has most of their shots assisted. Like Rasheed– I don’t remember him hitting 3s much that weren’t assisted. I found this to be quite interesting:
Rasheed Wallace (2003-04): 92% of his shots were assisted
Dirk Nowitzki (2003-04): 69% of his shots were assisted
Charlie V (2008-09): 55% of his shots were assisted
This is positive because it shows CV can create his own shot, negative because he appears to need the ball to score– just like Ben Gordon, Rodney Stuckey, etc.
One big difference between these three players is that Rasheed and Dirk were huge positives for their team when they were on the court. When Villanueva was on the court for the Bucks, he was a net negative scorer– meaning that he gave up more points than he scored (not by much, by 72 points on the season). However, much of this could have to do with the fact that his frontcourt mates during these stretches were Dan Gadzuric and Francisco Elson. Ugh.
Take that with a grain of salt– every single Bucks starter had a net negative scoring impact. Except for Bogut and Redd, who missed most of the season (the two of which barely accounted for more minutes that Villanueva had combined)
(note also that Tayshaun Prince had a net negative of 75 points this season compared to CV’s 72 points negative)
I guess it’s not too surprising that Tayshaun had a net negative, as there were many elite SF’s in the east (LBJ, Pierce, Granger, Hedo) and other high-end SF’s (Deng, Iggy, RJ) that he was forced to guard against. Also, CV is still young, and hopefully can learn to play better D, along with BG…and yea, CV seems to actually like posting up, and lmfao at sheed’s 92%
@Cody:
FWIW– only a few Pistons ended the season with a net positive +/-. Here were the leaders:
Rasheed Wallace: +82
Amir Johnson: +70
MFWB: +37
Gabe I never said he was a good point guard, but he definitely was a scoring point guard. I learned that from pistons weekly a few years ago.
I don’t really look into the +/- very much, because +82 means he scored one more point per game than his opposing PF…whoopee. If CV gets a bit better on defence, he could have a +100 or more next season.
I don’t really look into the +/- very much, because +82 means he scored one more point per game than his opposing PF…whoopee. If CV gets a bit better on defence, he could have a +100 or more next season.
Actually, it doesn’t mean he scored one more point than the opposing PF, it means that the team scored 1 more point per game than the other team when rasheed was on the floor. Rasheed could have scored 10 more points per game than the opposing PF, but other players on the floor could have scored 9 less than their men and Sheed’s number would be the same. It isn’t a definitive stat for an individual player, there is a chance it could be completely explained by external acts than one player’s performance. It’s not likely, but possible.
If CV gets a bit better on defence, he could have a +100 or more next season.
This would depend on how the rest of the team scores and defends as much as it depends on Villa. If we (crossing fingers) win 60% of our games next season, he’d likely see an 18% increase in his net +/- over last season.
@Birdman (sorry didn’t see your post till now lol), no…Gortat is a Restricted free agent, meaning any team can make an offer to him, but Orlando then has the chance to match it..if they do, Gortat is theirs…i’m sure you know what a restricted FA is tho…just thought he was a URFA.
oh sorry i mixed up those stats lol..i know what a +/- is, i just wasn’t thinking lol…but wow you know your stats lol
Here is my take on the Gordon signing…
The Contract
Gordon is reportedly getting $55 million for 5 years for an average of 11 a year. Based on the other salaries in the league, where does that put him in comparison for other starting SG or premiere SG?
The following are the players who will make less than Gordon next year (a couple of these guys are still on entry-level deals and are due big raises).
-Raja Bell
-Delonte West
-Antoine Wright
-JR Smith
-Stephen Jackson
-Eric Gordon
-OJ Mayo
-Keyon Dooling
-Rasual Butler
-Thabo Sefolosha
-Leonardo Barbosa
-Brandon Roy
-Ronnie Brewer
-Randy Foye
-Of these, Brandon Roy is due a huge raise. JR Smith will probably land a similar deal to what Gordon got. Eric Gordon, OJ Mayo and Randy Foye all have the potential to cash in. The following are two players who have signed similar deals to Ben Gordon:
Kevin Martin
Manu Ginobili
Ginobili will make slightly under $11 million next year and Martin will make just over $10 million before progressing to nearly $13 million in the coming years. So, how do they compare?
-First and foremost, Gordon does not compare favorably to Ginobili. If we are to believe that Gordon is supposed to be a super sub like Ginobili, and is getting paid like that, then Gordon is going to have to develop into more of a complete player to earn that salary. Ginobili is a better scorer, passer and rebounder and an integral part of 3 championship runs. Other than injury concerns, Ginobili is a vastly superior player. The hope, I guess, is for Gordon to continue to develop into that type of player off the bench.
-Again, despite some injury concerns, Martin is a superior player to Gordon in nearly all aspects of the game as evidenced by the numbers. Based on this, it would appear that this is a slight overpayment and that Gordon is not worth more than $10 million a year.
-The following are the SG due more than Gordon next year.
-Ray Allen
-Joe Johnson
-Kobe Bryant
-Wade
-Michael Redd
-Larry Hughes
-Vince Carter
-So, to summarize, there are 7 SG who have higher contracts than Gordon and two players with salary amounts within $1 million of what Gordon will earn. Ray Allen, Hughes and Carter will not be worth more than 10 million at their next contract negotiation. Roy, Mayo and maybe JR Smith will take their spots. So, basically, a top 10 SG will get upwards of $10 million or more a year. Is Gordon a top 10 SG and is he of the caliber of Ginobili or Kevin Martin? I think this is an overpayment and 5 years for $45 million would be a better deal.
-Regardless, he is here and he is a Piston. So, who is Ben Gordon and what type of player is he?
Bio
Gordon stayed at U Conn for three years and was apart of their championship team in 2004 with Emeka Okafor. After declaring early for the draft he was selected with the 3rd pick in the NBA draft by the Bulls. In his rookie season he came into the league averaging 15 points in 24 minutes a game and was named to the All Rookie team and the Sixth Man of the Year. Unfortunately, his game has not developed as many would have hoped since then.
The next three seasons he was a part-time starter and averaged between 31-33 minutes a season and 17-21 points a game. His best season to date was in 2007 when he had career highs in PER, Pts and assists. Following this season, he rejected a 5 year/$50 million dollar deal from the Bulls and his value as a player has appeared to fallen off the past 2 seasons.
This past season Gordon was given the reins at the full time starter for the first time in Chicago. He averaged nearly 37 minutes a game and started 76 games. He had 20.7 points, 3.4 assists and 3.5 rebounds a game and a PER of 17.0. This postseason he averaged 24.3 points a game against the Celtics.
Shooting/Scoring
This is where Gordon makes his money. He ranks in the top 10 among SG in 3 point shooting, FG % and Free Throw Pct, and is top 10 among SG in Pts per game. Gordon is hands down one of the best shooters in the league from the SG spot. In terms of shot selection, 80% of his shots are jump shots and he draws fouls at a slightly better rate than Prince, so he does not go to the lane much. And, when the stakes are at their highest, he shoots jumps shots 91% of the time in “clutch time” (4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points). So, that is something to keep an eye on. Another thing to keep an eye on is that Gordon takes 45% of his shots in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock. There is a good chance that he will make you scratch your head sometimes with his shot selection. On the plus side, his usage rating of 23.3 is reasonable, and despite the perception that he dominates the ball, the numbers do not bear that out. He is not in the top 10 for usage rate for SG. To recap:
A top 10 shooter by any measure among other SG and a top 10 scorer
Rarely drives to the hoop, especially in crunch time
Prone to taking shots early in the shot clock
Rebounding
-Gordon had a rebounding rating of 9.7. Hamilton had a rebounding rate of 9.5 so Gordon is roughly the same caliber of a rebounder as Hamilton is. In other words, rebounding is not his strong suit and he is probably only good for about 3 a game. He is an average rebounder for his position.
Passing
-Gordon had a passer rating of 4.8 last year and his 3.4 assists a game both put him in the middle of the pack for SG. But, his 2.4 turnovers a game and his assist/turnover ratio of 1.40 is third worst among SG. An average passer with poor decision making abilities.
Defense
-I walked into my evaluation of Ben Gordon with the assumption that he was a terrible defensive player. After looking at the numbers though, I think a lot of my beliefs were due to misconceptions thrown out there by the media and the like. The SG on the opposing team only averaged a PER of 15.4 (which is basically a league average number). And, comparing his numbers to opposing SG bears that out. Based on the production of the opposing SG last year, Gordon was more productive defensively than Vince Carter, Dwayne Wade, Kevin Martin and Brandon Roy. And, his defenive PER is within 1 of what Manu Ginobili allowed and Kobe Bryant, who is supposedly a first team All NBA defender. Now, this is not to say that he is a great defender. He is not. He is undersized and does not have a great wingspan. He also ranked 24th in the league in steals at the SG spot. But, he does have speed and is probably one of the stronger SG in the game. I am simply arguing that the numbers would suggest that he is an average to slightly below average defender, and will not hurt us defensively as much as some assume. Perception does not always match reality and I will have a lengthy post breaking down his defense in comparison to his peers in the near future. You will be surprised with the results.
Other important information
-Gordon had a Roland Rating of +3.3, and the Bulls were +2.7 when he was on the court compared to when he was off the court. So, he was a plus player for the Bulls last year. His Roland Rating was 13th among SG in the NBA.
Analysis
-A top 10 SG in this league is worth $10 million+. Based on the numbers I have presented, he is getting a slight overpayment and is probably not worth an average of $11 million a year. For next season, he is going to make $9 million. At this point in his career, that is what he should be making on a per year basis. He is without a doubt a top 10 shooter/pure scorer at the SG position. He is an average rebounder for his position and he has one of the worst turnover ratios for SG. So, offensively, he will excite us with some great shooting and annoy us with poor decision making with his passing and with some of his shot selections. Defensively, despite the perception that he is a terrible defender, the numbers would suggest that he is just slightly below average. In short, this is what we are getting:
A pure scorer and shooter
Average rebounder for his position
Below-average when passing, and prone to mistakes
Average to slightly below average defender
Looks like we’ve signed Deron Washington to a guaranteed contract, possibly to work into a trade:
http://blog.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2009/07/report_detroit_pistons_sign_de.html
(also, I’m an idiot, so forgive me for not knowing how to make that a link.)
oh, i did it automatically. disregard.
Scottwood, that was downright studious of you. Thanks for the info
Dr. Berri, from Wages of Wins, weighs in on BG and CV:
As a person who follows the Pistons, here is my initial reaction: Ugh!!!
When we look at Wins Produced we can understand the lack of enthusiasm for these signings. Here is what Ben Gordon has done across the first five years of his career:
Gordon’s Wins Produced = 15.3
Gordon’s WP48 [Wins Produced per 48 minutes] = 0.059
And here is what Villanueva has done across his first four seasons:
Villanueva’s Wins Produced = 11.2
Villanueva’s WP48 = 0.074
An average player posts a 0.100 WP48, so each player is posting a career mark that is below average. Now when we look at 2008-09 we see numbers that are much closer to average. That being said, each player is now being paid like an above average player (in fact, Gordon is getting more than $10 million per season). And I don’t think all the numbers support this position.
Of course, if all we focus upon is scoring, then Gordon and Villanueva are above average players. But once we move past scoring we see that Gordon was below average last season with respect to rebounds, steals, turnovers, blocked shots, and assists. And Villanueva was below average with respect to steals, turnovers, and personal fouls (and not really far above average with respect to anything else).
In sum, it looks like the Pistons have traded away valuable cap space for two players who are not going to take this team to a championship.
I didn’t realize Gordon was quite that low, and I thought CV would rank higher.
And I know there are Berri doubters here, but his model does have 95% accuracy.
So, anyway, way to go Jod. We turned Billups, Dice, and Sheed — all very productive players (Dice was .200 last season) — into two guys who score and don’t do anything else.
God, and after all that, Gortat signs for the MLE — we could have had a Center!?!?!?!?!
brgulker, Detroit would have had to offer more than the MLE to get Gortat. There were a number of teams that wanted him for the MLE. So, to stand out, Detroit would have had to go over. It would have taken the same contract Villanueva got to get him. I like Gortat, but Villanueva has more upside.
Scottwood, your salary numbers don’t take into account Ben Gordon’s actual salary. He won’t be getting 11mil next year. It will probably be 9mil and increase from there.
Also, you don’t account for WHEN the contracts were signed. The salary cap was different and has increased every year except this one. RealGM shows percentage of salary cap and that’s the number that’s used in the collective bargaining agreement for many calculations.
Either way, BG is not being paid like a Top 10 SG.
Qucik Darshan,
I know his salary will only be $9 million. But, he is still being paid like a near top 10 SG. From what I can tell, he is getting paid more than all but 10 SG. And, going forward, he will be in that same category as his salary increases.
Sorry to say this to Pistons fans, signing Ben Gordon does NOT make your team steps toward championship, rather steps close to the lottery, because you now have a team that is worse than the Bucks. Redd > BG, CV = CV, their young C >>>>> Kwane. It ensures your team will be mediocre for the next 5 years (missing the playoff or making the playoff as a low seed and out in the first round). Dumars has grossly overpaid BG who is only worthy of MLE (he is no better than Babosa or JR Smith who makes MLE or 4-5 mil per). His offensive stats looks better, because the stupid Bulls coaches (both the former and current ones) center the team offense around him and always assign him the lightest defense duty or give him OK for not playing defense at all (which costs the Bulls some games each year). His contract is untradable. Villanueva’s contact is reasonable (which matches his talent level) and tradable if he doesn’t work out.
BG is also going to stunt Stuckey’s development, like what he has done to Hinrich. One of the main reasons the Bulls didn’t rush to make an offer to BG this time is that they are worrying he is going to stunt Rose development as well. Now Stuckey will have to guard the opposing SG and be guard by SG, so his supposed size advantage at PG position will be disappeared.
BG is the worst defender among the SGs who get significant playing time and he is as selfish as you can get. I’m surprised that someone doesn’t know that whenever the Bulls play against teams that have a very good or elite SG, it’s always Hinrich guarded them; if Hinrich was not in the game, the coaches made Deng or Salmon (lately) to guard them; that’s why the PER of the SG on the opposing team is not that high. Keep your hope alive that BG will learn how to play defense. He won’t, because if he exerts energy on the defense end, he cannot shoot and then he can’t get that big contract he is looking for.
I thought that there might have one GM out there fooled by his inflated offensive stats and grossly overpays him. But I could never imagine that GM is J Dumars, because I always thought J.D. is one of the smartest GMs in the L and he values “defense” and “unselfishness” greatly (see Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Big Ben, R.W. and McDyess; I like them all).
As a Bulls fan, I want to say “Thank you” so much, Dumars and Pistons! I now can come back watching the Bulls without feeling sick in my stomach.