Coverage at 7:00 pm ET
Toronto: 1-2 (1-1 home)
Margin:-2.3
Pistons: 2-2 (1-1 road)
Margin: +2.0
Oppo research
The Euro-Raptors have begun the season in curious fashion. Chris Bosh is sporting a 31-15 average, and Andrea Bargnani has picked up where he left off last season, averaging 22 ppg. And yet, poor defense and a lack of rebounding have dropped the team to 1-2.
That’s what happens when you sign a perimeter power forward to compliment your other perimeter power forwards. Meanwhile, certifiable solutions Rasho Nesterovic and Amir Johnson largely ride the pine. Even more curious, Jose Calderon has already exceed his missed free throw total from last year.
Alas, without Rip and Tay, the Pistons are going to have to hope for yet another high-flying effort from the bench.
The Drama:
Amir is free at last!
Keys for Detroit
Crash the boards: I have the feeling I can just cut and paste this one for the remainder of the season. In this case, the Pistons really have no excuse.
Get Bargnani in foul trouble: He is averaging 5 fouls per game this year, and there is an easy opportunity to cut into his minutes, leaving Bosh as the only strong offensive option.
Keep it physical: Toronto clearly doesn’t like that.
Question of the Game
Seriously? Prince has a lower back strain? And this will be evaluated upon return from a road trip? I think it’s weird.
Anyone else think of Ivan Drago when they see Jerebko?
Assuming Ben Wallace covers Bosh, I’m unfortunately expecting Villanueva to leave Bargnani open for a healthy spoonful of wide-open threes.
Jerebko = Ivan Drago … see his battle with Magloire.
Yes it is kind of “weird” Tay is missing his second game to a “lower back strain”. This past summer he rested more than he has in his NBA career so I am not really buying this. I guess we need to stay tuned.
I think the Raps will be like Orlando last night and shoot instead of driving the lane. I hope the same intensity that got the W last night will carry over. Maybe the Basketball Gods will give the goods so our front court can flippin score!
If you’re a conspiracy theorist re: Tay, Maxiell and Rip missing time, you’ll like these:
http://www.motownstringmusic.com/2009/11/4/1114623/does-dumars-have-something-up-his
http://blog.mlive.com/its-just-sports/2009/11/ridiculous_trade_suggestions_h_1.html
Huh, Tay + Daye for Gay? I am Tay for Gay, I mean gay for Tay, I mean scntfc for Gay, but I’d rather make a move for a frontcourt scorer. Having Rudy Gay certainly would not suck though.
anyone have a feed?
Tay + Daye for Gay? What if there was a rule that players could only be traded for other players whose names rhymed with theirs?
@Toledo Joe:
If that were the case, Sean May would actually be worth something… And I have a feeling we could pick up a pretty nice center if we opted to trade Will Bynum
I imagine Bryan Colangelo is staring longingly at Jonas right now and thinking: “I MUST have you!”
Jerebko would be a Piston for life.
@ Matt:
I could see it lol
Bizarro Amir GETS fouled.
Wow. Toronto’s D is even worse than I expected.
Can someone buy me a laaaaaaank? Link.
Is Amir way more tatted up than he was when he was with the Pistons? Also, LOL at George Blaha’s description of the player moves involving Amir: “those are some high-profile . . . um, reserves.”
Already the Pistons have half as many assists as they did last night …
Charlie V for THREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
I have a link but its not the greatest
http://www.rajangan.net/template_live.php?ida=1328
BG is a bad man. It’s great to see him taking the ball to the hoop so much.
So with about 2:45 left in the quarter, Greg K. remarks on it being a big scoring quarter for Detroit (who had 28 points at the time). And of course they go scoreless the rest of the quarter. But you’re still cool with me, Special K.
Why I love my job: I’m an English professor. I made my class do an in-class writing while I watch the game. Sweet.
Ug, good D and they still get a 3.
The Raptors announcers are wacky.
Daye with some offense!
Would someone please tell Kwame to stop trying to post. It’s painful… my eyes are bleeding!
Pistons have now scored a total of 5 points in the 6-7 minutes or so since Greg remarked on how good the offense was. Also, Amir seems to have been freed.
This Toronto feed is horrendous. Retarded commentary. Ten minutes of Charles Oakley babbling.
Chunky Charlie stumbles and bumbles his way to a layup.
Yeah. I like Charles Oakley, but enough! I laughed when I saw that Vince Carter had the 3rd most rebounds in Toronto history.
It looks like the Raps are going after our guards…
Wilcox is not good at the game of basketball.
Fuck this, when is Oakley gonna talk about pimpin?…
Stop bullshitting Oak, we heard the stories of your talk lol
wow great drive by BG
We already have more assists than we did all of yesterday.
Opposite of last night — this is a high-scoring game. Don’t like Detroit’s chances when we give up 59 points with over 2 minutes left in the first half.
Say, how did all of our comments get shifted INTO THE FUTURE?
Shouldn’t bitch before the game is over but I’m going to anyway……1.) CV already has 4 3pt attempts in the first half. Very Rasheed’esq, don’t like it (even though he’s 2/4). 2.) JJ has 3 damn turnovers already 3.) Wilcox has 3 fouls in 3mins. WTF? Now, Lil’ Ben, loving it so far. But we’ve given up 60 pts in the first half. Where the heck is the defense we played last night against Orlando darn it. NBA…. where first half frustration happens!!!
Wilcox and Charlie V should not be allowed on the court at the same time. Ever.
make that 4 fouls in 5 minutes for Wilcox. Dude sucks.
jesus christ..
Welcome to Detroit, where you’re not allowed to have an off night.
62 1st half points eh?
That’s what’s hot in these Michigan Streets eh?
oh snap. triple for JJ
Bad end to the half and nice 3 from JJ.
CV has exhausted his allotment of 3 pt attempts for tonight. I don’t mind the new emphasis on 3’s the Coach Q wants to see, but not 5 in the first half from your PF. We could have kept Sheed if that’s what we wanted and got better defense. I’m going home, can’t take it via gamecast anymore. Is this an April Fool’s joke? We haven’t really given up almost 70 pts in the first half have we? This Toronto team looks amazing. Why would Chris Bosh ever leave them via free agency. They’re on pace to score 136 pts. They look like the Phoenix Suns of a few years back. Wowwwwwwww!!!!!!!
and thus, the gnashing of teeth begins. The season is only a few games old, but there’s trouble in Mudville.
Off night? You have off nights on offense, not on defense. Either Toronto is in the perverbial zone and just can’t miss, which I admit happens from time to time, or we’re just not playing any freaking D. Hopefully we’ll see a reversal in the second half and I’ll eat all my words.
SHUT THE FUCK UP DON HENLEY.
@Rob G:
I mean did anyone expect a smooth ride with this squad? I mean really?
You can have an off night all the way around
Stuckey is an enigma. He started the game just as he did last night. Then, it’s as if there’s an off switch. He suddenly takes horrible shots and makes bad decisions; it’s like night and day.
Ben Gordon, wow, he is playing amazing basketball.
And it’s nice to see CV looking like a basketball player, at least on offense.
@PP - as long as we don’t get all Sylvia Plath about it. Like Carl Brutananadilewski says, “It doesn’t matter. None of this matters.”
And to return us to the topic of team assists:
Last night, our offensive looked horrible (IMO); we had 9 team assists.
Tonight, in the first half, our offense was much improved; we have 10 team assists.
There is a correlation.
last night, our defense looked awesome. we gave up 80 points.
tonight, our defense looks like shit. we gave up 72 points. oh wait, i mean we have given up 72 points. in barely over half the time. there is a correlation.
Nice shot Ben Gordon…we might need 40+ from you in order to win tonight.
Is it just me, or does Bosh look like Crab-Man from “My Name is Earl”?
Chris wilcox is so bad… when I first about His signing I was kinda happy. But seeing him play lately really hurts somehow..
Oh. My. God.
Ben just made Chris Bosh his bitch.
Please stop passing the ball to Wilcox in the post
Wilcox is getting eaten up on D like he was prosciutto or Turkish Delight.
Where would we be without Ben Wallace? He’s been a stud.
We know Amir fouls. Attack him.
haha good to have amir on the other side for that one
BTW, I would have made a lung bet on over if I were in Vegas. Over is just a total no brainer here with this kind of matchup.
That was a charge. not a foul on stuck.
thank you BG for keeping us in this game, somewhat
Stuckey can’t get a call.
Where would we be without Ben Wallace? He’s been a stud.
For sure. He is by far my favorite signing of the offseason. Sure Gordon and Villa are keys to our future, but Ben Wallace is a vet minimum player who if he’s not on our roster this year we’re not going to win many games.
Rodney needs to learn to quit whining and slow the game down when it gets out of control like it is now.
Lol, Rodney’s like “Who’s dick do you gotta suck to get a call in this league?”
Wow. Just got back from teaching a class. Not a class in which I could watch the game, though. What the hell happened in the second quarter?
And — Rob G, what are you teaching over there at Mason?
The baby killer is back!
Nice D from Daye…
Nice block Daye! He didn’t even leave the ground on the block…he’s got a rediculous wing span.
@B - it’s at NVCC. It’s an English class. A confluence of good things - good internet, LPBB, and an in-class writing test…
Why has Kwame not played? Is it because of matchups?
Did Turk gain weight?
What a turnaround!
Ugh, I hate it when you’re distracted from a game to deal with some other stuff….and it really was BS that put me in a foul mood (picture Sheed after a Tech) but here’s to the Pistons to close this out and put the pressure.
Also, does anyone feel like a Rip trade is gonna happen…soon?
@QD - his hand?
Rob - Gotcha.
I used to say MFWB only lacked a jump shot. Well, he has one now.
MFWB and BG are so muthafuckin’ clutch.
Please win this so I can go home and watch the rebroadcast in joy.
Good lord, By’em is fast…
I’m officially on board with this Austin Daye lad.
Another block for Daye!
Daye with another block! Nice job leading the break too.
Dayeshaun!!!!
if we win this game it’ll be special… ity’ll be the first game where we fell behind big and didnt quit, but came back and won
i felt like against okc and bucks we sort of quit, yet to be seen how to come out of this one
DAYESHAUN!
by golly, that Masada Funtime Will Bynum is a fast, fast man.
He’s the new Tayshaun that Daye…
Ouch!
MFWB!
MFWB!!!
He just needs to pretend that every quarter is the fourth quarter.
And why has Max been buried on the bench again?
(And Orland is taking some serious yesterday madness out on Phoenix).
Only given up 27 points this half. I assume defensive adjustments were made.
MFWB just broke my eyes’ ankles
Nice, Rob. Nice.
I personally deserve for the Pistons to win this game for all the bad sports karma I’ve had lately.
“Tayshaun, don’t look at me that way. You’ll always hold a special place in our heart. Surely you understand. Sure, he’s a younger version of you, but it’s not that we’re vain. He can just give us things you can’t anymore. We’ll always look back at you fondly and will remember your block on Reggie. And you’ll move on just fine - we both know you were meant for the Western Conference all along anyways. Goodbye Tayshaun…”
And Stuckey is now 5-15. But 0 TO’s thus far.
Ben was definitely shoved in the back on that Daye miss.
So does Bargnani no longer suck?
those were some man-sized bebounds
Stuckey got fouled twice on that drive!
That said, if we trade Tayshaun, watch Daye suddenly suck a la Billups/Stuckey lol
I say lol but I sigh in real life
If we lose, I curse all of Canada.
I’m impressed with the fight they put up in the second half, but I think the florida-toronto B2B with two starters out is taking too much of a toll.
It was a Detroit-Toronto B2B, but the point is still valid.
sigh
If we lose, I curse all of Canada.
Wait, that hasn’t already been done?
QD: Good Catch. Det-Tor not as bad but probably still difficult with a short bench.
Did Villanueva get benched for Jerebko just now?
How will Langlois spin this travesty?
I hear Toronto’s a really nice city. Just saying…
QD: I was surprised too. That can’t make Charlie very happy.
Stuck leads the team with 10 boards. double double for him. Ben has 9. BG only 2 for 7 in the 2nd half, but still shot over 50% for the game. lmao
What travesty? Without two starters and with Bosh getting as many FTs as our entire team the Pistons erased a 17 point deficit before losing late.
@Micahel
I disagree, they are showing plenty of energy. I think it has more to do with Will Bynum. The moment he came in the game sped up out of control, which heavily favored Toronto. Just think of Dallas in the preseason, we were fine until he came in.
I’m not saying we should get rid of him, god knows we’d lose half our bench scoring without him. But I am saying he needs to keep the tempo under control, and quite frankly I think Stuckey does a much better job of that.
I think they were leading by 10 or something in the first quarter before Bynum came in, just look at the plus minus numbers. Even though no correlation has been proven yet, I think it does mean something that he is quite often well in the negatives while Ben Wallace is always in the positive. For that matter, Ben and Rodney were the only two in the positives in this game.
On a side note, how about Rodney’s rebounding. 9 boards followed up by 10 boards? I think a triple double would be in reach under a coach like Flip, where the point guard dominates the ball.
You know what Turkolu’s thinking about? Pizza.
Well, tough loss, but at least this team didn’t mail it in when things got tough. This team’s got fight, and it’s nice to see that out of an entire roster, not just a few individuals.
I wonder how long Daye is going to be called for those touch fouls? I understand he’s a rookie, but still, our guys are getting quite often hammered without a call.
@ Rob G
He aint the only one
Also anyone seeing this Wiz-Heat conclusion?
D-Wade be getting away with murder lol
bmr: i’m actually surprised Stuck hasn’t been doing this all along. maybe not 9 or 10 boards a game, but close to 5.
Well…I’m looking forward to watching the Memphis-GS game!
Amen, brgulker. Good to see some fight.
bmr007
Plus minus numbers suck for evaluating individual players.
For example, Stuckey was -1 tonight, even though he shot 5-18 from the field. That doesn’t compute. Sure, he had ten boards, but he shot 28% from the field, and only one Piston took more shots than he did (Gordon shot 19).
+/- numbers can be helpful, I think, when evaluating lineups as a whole, but IMO, you can chuck them out the window when you’re trying to value an individual’s contribution to the game.
I think the bad shooting had to do with getting his shot blocked a lot and the lack of foul calls. If we had some bigs with decent range, we wouldn’t be seeing nights where he gets his shot blocked 5 times.
But that’s besides the point, my main point is that the tempo went way out of control when Bynum came in. He really needs to make sure he’s going at a rate that the rest of the team can keep up with. We already know he’s probably in the top 5 fastest players in the league, he’s got nothing to prove in that respect.
That really exposed our defense in the second quarter, people couldn’t rotate fast enough and Toronto hit a lot of open shots. And its not just this game, it happened a lot towards the end of the preseason. It looks kinda like he’s trying earn a big contract. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn’t help the team when we get into uber fast one on one ball.
I think the bad shooting had to do with getting his shot blocked a lot and the lack of foul calls.
Good point. Five blocks against Stuck and only three free throws?
I’m just glad to see another game where we don’t turn the ball over, keep up on the boards, and reasonably tough D. If we do that, we’ll be fine.
+1 to Shinons, especially on the TO’s. Last night, very few TO’s (and very few assists). Tonight, the assists wer up, and the TO’s were still down.
At least Charlie actually had a fairly decent game, 16 and 7. He had 8 bebounds last night, hopefully this is a sign of things to come. If he can approach 18 and 8, that would be splendid. If he can get to 20 and 10 in the next year or two, we’ll be a player away from a contending.
I think both Ben’s are really adding a lot of toughness to this team. I thought for sure they would stop caring after being down by 17 in the third. I can still remember when Ben Gordon stole that game from us at the end of last season, I don’t think he ever gives up.
CV won’t be a 20 and 10 guy. i’m guessing 17 and 7.
brgulker, I really think the assist numbers are going to be tied to the production we get from our bigs.
As to Villanueva, we only got 12 and 8 for most of Sheed’s stay here. I think we can count on more than that from Charlie Small Town. I like this team, and I’ll like it more once we figure out “Next Ben Wallace.”
For those who have been concerned about the assist numbers– one important thing to take away about Villanueva is the fact that he was assisted 4 times tonight. I’m looking forward to not having to repeat it anymore, but it’s a great example of how our primary frontcourt scorer is inextricably tied to our offensive flow and total assist numbers. It’s as much on Charlie V and the other frontcourt players as it is on Stuck and MFWB.
@shinons:
brgulker, I really think the assist numbers are going to be tied to the production we get from our bigs.
Pre-fucking-cisely. Hence me changing my fantasy team name to “frontcourt scoring” earlier tonight.
Ha! Nice. So I guess that means it’s open season for team names about Villa’s hair malady.
I think it’s reasonable to expect around 15-17 ppg from Villanueva, at least 10 ppg from the rest of our bigs. If we can get that our assist numbers will be fine. Either way, our roster is filled with guys who can score off the dribble and create their own shot (which is a good adjustment to the changes in the game to make less physical play) so that’ll also naturally suppress those numbers.
I’m convinced that Donnie Nelson is the worst coach in the league. Playing Miki Moore over Randolph? Really?
@mp
same day different shit, switch the dates and the names up how you see fit. Grow you a pair, and act like you got them.
Mike Payne
Nov 4th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Huh, Tay + Daye for Gay? I am Tay for Gay, I mean gay for Tay, I mean scntfc for Gay, but I’d rather make a move for a frontcourt scorer. Having Rudy Gay certainly would not suck though.
scntfc
Nov 3rd, 2009 at 7:13 pm
@Joel
I don’t know what the problem is, I cant possibly be that much of a Payne in your ass for you to keep mentioning my name.
Whatever the case I apologize. I always thought it was rather feminine or catty to continue to mention another man, who clearly doesn’t have a desire to pay you any attention.
Fight! Fight! Fight!
@scntfc:
My bad, I’ll cool it. Sorry man.
Don’t apologize. Fight! It’s the drunk-and-surly thing to do. Wait until you sober up to apologize!
Gordon was pretty ill tonight. Lovin’ that dude in Bad Boys colors. My mans right there.
I saw Daye with the Tayshaun block, that was a highlight. I couldn’t watch the whole game, but when I saw the stones up like 92-91 I got to watch the rest, shame they couldn’t close it out.. No Prince or Hamilton tonight, I think with those cats in the lineup Rip would’ve led us to victory. Fun game to watch after the ‘Stons started fighting back.
@PS:
You know me too well, buddy. Maybe I’m not drunk enough?
Kidding, dude even quoted his dig at me from last thread, I was just having fun trading paint with him. Didn’t realize he’d get sensitive (I said that last word with a lisp). If dude’s butthurt, I’ll cool it. This place should be civil, I think.
I was at the game tonight. My main observation was that Stuck was very predictable. Every time he had the ball in his hands you knew he would be driving the lane and putting up an erratic circus shot. The defense (and I use the term defense lightly as it was Toronto they were playing) collapsed on him and he rarely converted.
He needs to learn to dish as he can be more effective that way. I like his aggressiveness but he needs to learn to pass out of those drives.
Wasn’t able to watch most of the game, but wow, BG has been amazing so far this season. I wonder if it’s having any influence on whether or not someone gets traded soon.
Ben Wallace is awesome. That is all.
Stuckey w/ 10 boards is impressive. Seems like he’s not actually playing a lot of PG w/ Rip out. His shot needs to start dropping though.
Wilcox looks terrible. I want AA back.
Raptors have the softest frontcourt in the league.
All in all, Pistons probably win if Rip or Tay plays.
Oh yeah.. forgot to mention. Wilcox is not a good basketball player.
As much as I don’t like Wilcox and don’t like trading Afflalo for nothing, our problem isn’t our backcourt and having Afflalo back wouldn’t really mean much.
I’m really enjoying these games so far this year despite the uneveness of the play. Mostly I love seeing ben Wallace back. Every time he grabs a board or makes a great a hustle play I think to myself “that’s deeeeetroit basketball”
at least amir didnt light up wilcox for 20 points. that would have been too much to bear.
I think if we had Prince we could have pulled this one out. It just looked like we ran out of steam. But hey, this was a ’should win’ for TOR with our two starters out and we still led in the fourth.
It seems like the last two games Bynum has tried to win the game by himself. Granted, he can actually pull it off sometimes, but it just seems like our ball movement stops with guys just watching him dribble around. He’s got to find a happy medium. Stuckey has been doing a better job of this this year, even if he doesn’t have the assists to show for it.
In one of CV’s first games I compared him to an ex-university ball player at the Y who just happens to be taller than everyone else. He seriously needs some conditioning and flexibility — he moves like he’s 100 years old! He’s putting up numbers but I never seem to remember any of them. I’m still waiting to see the versatility I thought he was supposed to have…
And since I’m making vague, general comparisons, Stuckey reminds me of the athlete who plays any sport OTHER THAN basketball. Like when the volleyball players decides to play pick-up just for fun. Or the football player. They don’t make good decisions, they’re kind of a black hole, and the only thing they know about the game is to take the ball to the rim. Stuckey looks crazy on so many of his drives where he’s smashing into people and chucking it off the glass!
So do we know when, exactly, Rip and/or Tay are returning to the lineup?
And when Rip comes back, does Ben G. come off the bench again? I know that was the plan, but Ben G. has been by far our best offensive player.
@Garrett
Ooh, do Wilcox next!
@ TJ, next week at the earliest. Q-ster announced at the beginning of the season that Rip is the permanent start, no amendments to that thus far.
@ MP
Let me try to reframe our earlier discussion about team assists.
Let me start by saying that I agree with your point about frontcourt scoring, to a point. Where we disagree: you think it’s the primary reason for low team assists (it’s the disease, and low assists are a symptom). I think frontcourt scoring is certainly part of the problem, but the disease, IMO, is the way Rodney Stuckey is playing on offense.
Let me explain why before you dismiss this as more Stuckey Hating.
Stuckey has enormous potential; there is no doubt about that. But this season, he has been miserable (except for short in short bursts). This is now the fourth consecutive game where he has shot below 35%, and it’s the second game in the past three where he’s had at least 3 of his shots blocked (last night he had five shots blocked.)
We both watched last night’s game. When Stuck has the ball, everyone with two eyes knows what’s coming. He wants to put the ball on the floor and beat his man off the dribble so he can shoot the ball. That’s it. I don’t think I’m exaggerating when I say that creating for his teammates is an afterthought for him right now. I don’t think it’s selfishness on his part; I think it’s inexperience and a lack of understanding how to be successful in the NBA.
Now, you can try to put all the blame for our lack of assists on a lack of frontcourt scoring — and I would agree, yes we have a problem there — but I don’t see how that claim holds up when you look at the play of our primary point guard.
He has the highest usage rate on the team (over 27%) — higher than Ben Gordon, who has been far and away our best offensive player — he is shooting a miserable 34% for the season, he is only getting 5 FTA’s per game (while getting his stuff swatted like crazy), 16 FGA’s per 36 (2 more than Gordon), and he’s posted a PER of 12 (BG has posted a 26.8).
And finally, his assist rate is down 5% from last year (his TO rate is down too, though).
Yes, not having Sheed and Dice on the floor to kick to hurts. Yes, CV has not shot well, and that hurts. I do understand your point.
But I don’t see how that’s the root of the problem. Getting Rip and Tay back will help tremendously (and only Tay is a frontcourt player, but he plays primarily on the perimeter), so that’s another strong argument against your point I think, but that’s more of an aside.
Here’s my main point: If you watch Rodney play, you and everyone else who can see know exactly what he wants to do — put the ball on the floor and shoot. And since he’s the PG, he can basically do that whenever he wants, which is very, very often. If you analyze his stats for the season, I think it confirms the hypothesis. Rodney is shooting the piss out of the ball and assisting at a very low rate — is there any chance that those two things are correlated?
Does insufficient frontcourt scoring contribute to low team assists? Absolutely. But so does not having Rip and Tay. But IMO, the primary reason for low team assists is that Rodney Stuckey is simply a one-dimensional player right now who wants to shoot, shoot, shoot. He doesn’t run the offense. He doesn’t look for teammates often enough. He just puts his head down and goes. I think that’s a supportable claim if you’ve watched the past three games, and I think it’s further supported by his personal stats. I don’t think you can single out any other of our primary rotation players and find such pitiful performance.
He’s capable of so much more, and we all want to see that — but right now, this season, Rodney Stuckey is playing bad, bad basketball, and there’s no sense in passing the buck to anyone but him.
Sean W: 100% agree.
According to nba.com’s courtside live shot chart, Stuckey was 2 for 10 inside the paint (and just 1 for 6 right at the rim), and he was blocked 5 times. Teams know exactly what Stuck is going to do- drive straight to the rim and shoot- on almost every possession, and because he still stubbornly forces the issue, he’s dragging down the half court offense.
Someone in the organization needs to sit him down and show him tape of Chris Paul, Tony Parker, and Rondo. None of them have a great jump shot, and they score most of their points in the paint, but they use the threat of dribble penetration to draw defenders and then kick to open players.
Stuckey doesn’t seem to grasp that he can keep his aggressiveness without forcing bad shots. In fact, if he shows an ability to pass to the open man when the defense collapses on his drives, suddenly teams won’t be able to mob him anymore. He’s tanking his own efficiency by not having more of passing mentality.
brgulker: +++ a lot
Great, great post. This pretty much goes without saying by now, but I completely agree with your analysis.
Thanks, Gabe!
Yeah I know, but he seems like the kind of guy who want on your team. Young, cheap, knows his role, good backup SG for the next 10 years. If Rip gets traded, who backs up BG? Stuckey seems like the only option.
And are we sure Stuckey isn’t really a SG? I used to ignore the media who questioned his position, but I’m starting to have my doubts.
*That’s referring to Arron Afflalo in 1st paragraph.
THOUGHTS AFTER WATCHING THE REBROADCAST:
- Saw this cool movie about a guy who ages backwards. I think it was called The Curious Case of Benjamin Wallace.
- It’s silly to judge this team until all the parts are available at the same time. The Grizzlies game was the closest thing. Q-ster hasn’t had a one week stretch where he’s had everyone healthy. For a team with so many new faces, that’s been a big factor.
- Did Amir Johnson put on muscle? Why couldn’t he do that last year?
- Ben Gordon can shoot the basketball.
- Toronto’s offense creates matchup problems. Derozan’s development will be key for them this season.
- CV’s got a nice touch in the paint. I’d like to see them set some cross screens so he can get to his spot.
- Seems like Ben Wallace gets one assist a game when he fakes the hand off and dribbles into the paint.
- Nice to see Jerebko hit a three pointer.
@ QD:
I’m with you on CV … seems like he’s just like Sheed in that respect. He has skills inside, but he’s in love with his jumpshot.
We need our coaching staff to come up with some sets that set him up inside 15 feet so he can use the skills he obviously has.
@brgulker:
Where we disagree: you think it’s the primary reason for low team assists
Look, what I feel is that frontcourt scoring is the team’s primary problem. Since it is a major contributing factor to the assist issue, I think there is a lot of misplaced concern when people worry about those assists.
Right now Stuckey is being asked to do way too much as our PG. He’s got a brilliant backcourt mate in Ben Gordon and shares the ball with him well enough. But beyond Ben Gordon, he’s got no one else to pass to. And when BG is off the floor, things are even worse. In those times, he’s forced to be the number one option when he shouldn’t. He needs a reliable frontcourt scorer who can set themself up to score either on the wing, with mismatches or in a good spot in the post. Without that, and when BG is on the bench, he’s forcing a lot of shots he shouldn’t be taking.
Things were a bit better last night, as the team got 6 assists out of the frontcourt, 4 of those going to Villanueva. But IMO, there should be a lot more of that. This team can’t win it all with its guards. We can squeak out wins like we did over Orlando, but we’ll never be anything without improved… shit, I’m tired of saying it.
What I think is that the “primary reason we have a poor offense” is in our frontcourt. It is a major contributing factor to the assist issue, and its making Stuckey more important than he should be.
Rodney Stuckey is playing bad, bad basketball, and there’s no sense in passing the buck to anyone but him.
This is where we completely disagree. Rodney Stuckey is not our number one problem, but an element in a larger roster-level issue. The buck stops higher than he, brgulker.
@Gabe
Actually, Chris Paul has a fabulous jumpshot and is shooting 65%fg and 80%– EIGHTY PERCENT– on the year from three (on 15 attempts).
But your point is completely right. I was harping on this incessantly in one of the other threads. Stuckey is possibly the worst finisher in the NBA. I seriously expect 6′0″, no hops, “old guy at the Y” Steve Nash to get better shots off in the paint than Stuck. Actually, just name a guard– ANY GUARD AT ALL– and I expect them to get off better shots in the paint. His game is so ugly it almost makes me angry.
Special Olympics D-Wade
I’m Rod-neeeeeee!!! I lub popthikkuullllllth!!!
If your argument is that the bucks stops with Dumars (for not putting a coherent roster together), then you’re preaching to the choir, MP. I’ve been pissing and moaning about our roster since we signed BG and CV … I’ve been saying that (and frankly, taking a lot of flack for it) for months.
But I don’t understand defending Stuckey, I really don’t. There’s no excuse for getting five shots swatted against Toronto!! Toronto! Seriously? And in Orlando, I counted three (but there may have been four). That is indicative of a guy who’s needlessly forcing the issue. Yes, you’re right, he doesn’t have options in abundance — but that does not excuse forcing shot after shot after shot. Can you really justify him taking two more shots per 36 minutes than Ben Gordon? I’m sorry, but if that’s what he’s being asked to do (and not what he’s doing on his own gusto), then JKIAFI.
And it’s not as if this is unique to this season — this has been Rodney’s recurring problem. It’s simply more obvious this year because he’s being used at a higher rate. Stuckey puts his head down and goes — that is what he does, regardless of who’s on the floor with him. For the past three games, he’s started alongside CV and BG — our two offensive signings. But have you watched how Stuck has begun all of those games? By shooting the piss out of the ball.
Let’s watch what happens when Rip and Tay come back. I predict that our team assists will go up, and that will be a direct result of Stuckey not having the ball in his hands as much. We won’t have more frontcourt scoring than we do right now (unless you count Tay), but we will have guys on the floor who do more than dribble into the paint and chuck up shots.
That won’t translate us into a great team by any stretch, because we do have other significant roster issues — but our offense will absolutely be more fluid, better ball and player movement will happen, and we will have more team assists.
In other words, barring a trade, we aren’t going to get much more frontcourt scoring. Our roster is what it is. But, when Rip and Tay come back, Stuckey won’t have the ball in his hands as much (yet his style of play will be very similar), and as a direct result, our team assists will go up.
Is Stuckey the only problem with our offense? No. But if you watched the past three games, I don’t see how there is any other conclusion than this: he has been the worst offensive player on the floor (well, Wilcox was worse, but in limited minutes).
Re: Stuckey
It depends where he attacks from. He’s a great finisher when he attacks from the wing. He’s deadly. He’s not a good finisher when attacking from the top.
brgulker, I agree with the points you made about Stuckey forcing the issue too much. But, I think that applies to Bynum too. From what I saw last night, Bynum had just as many reckless drives into the teeth of the defense.
I think that speaks to MP’s point about the guards having to do too much without Rip and Tayshaun.
This team will be much different with those two back (and healthy).
@brgulker:
But I don’t understand defending Stuckey, I really don’t.
Look, man, I know you’ve always hated Stuckey, you’ve been down on him since day one. With that, you’ll have to accept that it’s a difference in perspective.
I think Stuckey is being used way too much, being asked to do way too much. And QD is right– so is MFWB. Bynum’s jumper was much better last night, but in general I’d really rather not see him using it. They’re both being overused and overstretched– and I feel they both most certainly deserve being defended, whether you understand that or not.
“- Saw this cool movie about a guy who ages backwards. I think it was called The Curious Case of Benjamin Wallace.”
Battier for three!
@Joel:
Stuckey is possibly the worst finisher in the NBA. I seriously expect 6′0″, no hops, “old guy at the Y” Steve Nash to get better shots off in the paint than Stuck. Actually, just name a guard– ANY GUARD AT ALL– and I expect them to get off better shots in the paint.
Funny you should mention Steve Nash. At 66% scoring in the paint, he was the 2nd best point guard in the league last season in inside scoring.
Rodney Stuckey’s 50% paint scoring last season was better than vets like Baron Davis and Jason Kidd, as well as youngsters like Russell Westbrook and Mario Chalmers.
@Birdman: Wilcox reminds me of….uh…..Method Man?
@ MP:
I have not been a Stuckey hater from the beginning … I don’t hate Stuckey. I think he has fantastic potential.
But I also think that potential is often simply a synonym for underachiever.
It’s far too early in his career to label him as an underachiever permanently — but right now, at this particular moment in his career, after one season as a starter and the handful of games we’ve seen thus far, is Rodney Stuckey playing good basketball?
I think the answer is unequivocally, No. That doesn’t make me a Stuckey hater. It just makes me a realistic evaluator of his play thus far. Yes, he doesn’t have frontcourt scoring options. Yes, he usage rate is too high (you think he’s being asked to do that, I’m not convinced of that. I think his natural tendency is to shoot too much). Honestly, how can you look at his play and not be at all concerned? It has been really bad by any measure. Is he capable of more? We all think so because we’ve seen it in spurts. But potential isn’t a defense of the piss poor play we’ve seen from him, I don’t think. Mike, let’s be honest — last game, he had more of his shots blocked than he had assists! How is that defensible?
To the issue of MFWB: there is no doubt that he forces the issue as well, but not to the same extent. Exhibit A: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=90WK5
MFWB has a lower usage rate (not by much), a higher shooting percentage (TS% and FG%, although it’s still too low), and a much higher assist %. Ultimately, yes, MFWB forces the issue as well — but not to the same extent. And I would also argue the following point: how many fourth quarters has Rodney Stuckey taken over? How many fourth quarters has MFWB taken over? We don’t beat Orlando without Bynum, plain and simple. And we definitely don’t mount a 4th quarter comeback against Toronto without him. I don’t think that case can be made for Rodney.
But again, the main point you’ve argued is that frontcourt scoring is the reason we don’t have team assists. I’ve argued that Rodney Stuckey is more to blame, not because I hate Stuckey but because I don’t see a way around that point. I don’t think our collective observations coupled with the numbers can tell any other possible story right now — the difference between a sub-average Pistons team and a playoff Pistons team is the play of Rodney Stuckey, and right now, we’re seeing play that will produce the former, not the latter.
I think adding Rip and Tay back into the lineup will contribute to the latter (because they will improve our overall offensive efficiency and alleviate some of the pressure from Rodney), and I don’t think we’re likely to see frontcourt scoring added anytime soon. So even though I agree with you about our lack of frontcourt scoring and overall roster cohesion and efficacy, it seems pointless to continue to complain about it — because it is unlikely to change. The play of Stuckey, however, could potentially chance (right?), so it seems like less futile thing to focus on. As Rodney goes, so go our Pistons this year, for better or for worse.
Not to seem like I’m totally hating on Stuck– the kid’s averaging like 16pts/5rbds/4asts/1.2stls on the season. Those are fantastic numbers really. But if he could only develop a little touch inside and turn some of those ugly circus (blocked) shots into made shots and +1’s, he could be up somewhere around 20ppg. And let’s not even get started on the fouls– I forget who said it but, “Who’s dick do I gotta suck around here to get a call?” is about right. To his credit he’s still taking it to the hole even when the refs aren’t giving him any respect.
And the assists will without a doubt go up for everybody once our horses get back. I don’t know how anyone’s even debating that fact. CV looked promising last night too, so that’s going to help immensely. I think when all’s said and done, it’s pretty obvious we have the best backcourt in the league. Nobody in the league can match up with above-average starter talent 1-4 and it’s definitely the only reason we’ve won games and been close in others. If Joe figures out a way to sling Tay+(bench big x) for a legit defensive big and another scorer, I think we can be scary even THIS year.
And I’m clearly referring to a trade with Portland that brings back Przybilla and Outlaw/Webster, in case it’s not clear. It’s the one that makes the most sense.
That is… unless we can swindle Memphis out of Marc Gasol somehow. That guy gives me such a boner. Maybe if we agree to take a horrible contract off their hands? Shit, this works in the Trade Machine:
Memphis gets:
Tayshaun (plus some picks if need be)
Detroit gets:
Marc Gasol ($3m)
Marko Jaric ($7m– yeah, seven million American dollars)
I’m sure Memphis doesn’t really want to get rid of Gasol, but they do have Thabeet, Haddadi, and Steven Hunter to pick up the slack and this gets them out of Jaric’s HORRIBLE contract. How sick would we be with a legit 15/10 big man who’s only 24 years old? Plus, as overpaid as Jaric is, he’s a legit PG who could be useful at the end of the rotation.
Officially my new favorite trade.
It doesn’t make much sense to judge Stuckey too harshly for the past couple games. Look at the starting lineup without Rip and Tay. There are about 1.5 shooters in that starting lineup. No one in that starting lineup has played with any other player in the lineup for more than a few games. One player is a rookie. The season just started, and we have a new coach. Honestly, how should we expect the offense to look?
MP is absolutely correct in saying the lack of frontcourt scoring is the primary problem with the offense (with the roster at full strength). Stuckey is being overly agressive right now because he is being asked too, and he almost has too without other options.
In general, does Stuckey need to improve his decision making and his jump shot? Yes, of course he does. But, his jump shot is getting better, and the jury is still out on his decision making due to the crazy lineups he has to play with right now.
Also, calling Stuckey a Special Olympics D. Wade is crazy. What games were you watching? Wade would have gotten foul calls on about 90 percent of those drives where Stuckey missed or had the shot blocked. If Stuckey was Wade but played the exact same game last night he would have had 30 plus points (to go with his 10 rebounds and 4 assists).
Ease up on the kid.
Joel,
I’d love Gasol. Memphis has been known for making a bad trade or two … not sure how Tay ultimately helps them, though.
There’s the obvious gaping hole at SF … but I’d personally rather live with that than our gaping hole inside. It’s easier to find a serviceable three than a stud C in the NBA, after all.
@Joel:
Detroit gets:
Marc Gasol ($3m)
Marko Jaric ($7m– yeah, seven million American dollars)
Don’t forget the other great part of that trade.
http://bit.ly/3PysE6
Having her around the Palace wouldn’t be such a terrible thing.
@gulker:
Man, you’re taking me out of context and putting words into my mouth.
Honestly, how can you look at his play and not be at all concerned?
Dude. Did I ever say I was NOT concerned? I’m defending Stuckey because his poor play goes beyond him alone. Why do you assume I’m totally 100% thrilled with his performance thus far?
I think statements like these are a bit foolish: “there’s no sense in passing the buck to anyone but him.” and “I don’t understand defending Stuckey, I really don’t.” Because there are team/roster/injury problems going on beyond Stuckey alone, I’m defending him. That does not mean I think he’s playing well. I just think your attitude of “it’s all on him, that’s indefensible” is narrow-minded.
Beyond that, we’re talking in circles. We’ve addressed what I feel is the TEAMS biggest problem, frontcourt scoring, and that it PLAYS INTO the assist issue. No reason to keep going over that, if we disagree, let’s leave it at that, yeah?
@Joel:
I’m entirely 100% in agreement with you here. Too much text to copy, linky instead.
MP:
Stuck’s eFG% last season on inside shots was .497, and his blocked % was 16%. Those numbers aren’t very good, but the hope was he would improve on them. What’s been worrisome is Stuck has not shown any inclination either towards balancing out his game (driving less, distributing more) or improving on his weaknesses (learning a floater/tear drop).
Compare Stuckey’s shot distribution chart to Tony Parker’s:
Stuckey: http://www.82games.com/0809/08DET4.HTM#pstats
Parker: http://www.82games.com/0809/08SAS1.HTM#pstats
Parker is proof that a PG can be effective even without a jump shot (they have almost identical 60/40 jumper/inside shot ratios). The problem with Stuckey’s game is he’s both an inefficient jump shooter, and a poor finisher, and on top of that, he still uses a high number of possessions. That’s a Larry Hughes-esque mix.
I’ve been a fan of Stuckey’s since his rookie year, but I’m disappointed in what I’ve seen from him so far this season. His usage rate is totally insane for how poorly he’s shot the ball. If you subtract his shot attempts/makes, the teams collective fg% rises from .429% to .454% (and that’s with MFWB and CV struggling, if they’d shot closer to their fg% from last season, the difference would be even greater).
Joel: I thought you didn’t like Chris Paul. You’re right that his jumper is underrated.
@Gabe:
I’ve been a fan of Stuckey’s since his rookie year, but I’m disappointed in what I’ve seen from him so far this season.
Totally agree. I’m just hoping we can all avoid getting our collective panties in a bunch until our rotation is set and healthy.
@joel:
If we trade for Jaric, can we force him to wear a pirate captain’s hat the whole time he’s glued to the bench? For some reason I want to drink spiced rum whenever I see that goofy stache:
http://bit.ly/3PysE6
@sean w.:
I’d go from zero to stalkerish in a heartbeat with that palace princess.
I don’t really like Chris Paul, crazy I know, but I’ll be damned if he’s not shooting the piss out of the ball. Seriously, 80% on the year so far from 3? That is utterly preposterous. And I love Okefor with him– more efficient scoring, more rebounds, 2.5 blocks a game… NO def get the better deal in that trade. They just need a wing who can score so badly it hurts.
BTW, this isn’t getting nearly enough attention:
Ben Gordon
25ppg/3ast/4rbds/1stl
51% fg
41% 3pt
91% ft
9 FT/gm
That, my friends, is what we call a superstar. He’s posting the highest FG% of his career, has doubled his FT attempts per game, has his highest scoring average and is taking the fewer shots per/36 than he has in his entire career.
This is why he makes $10mil/yr. Because he’s worth it.
@Joel:
And for what it’s worth, his defense has been nowhere near as suspect as advertised.
I don’t know what usage rate is, but I think it makes more sense to look at Stuckey and Bynum’s usage rate for the Grizzlies game than for the non-Rip games. And certainly not the non-Rip/Tay games.
Because there are team/roster/injury problems going on beyond Stuckey alone, I’m defending him. That does not mean I think he’s playing well. I just think your attitude of “it’s all on him, that’s indefensible” is narrow-minded.
Mike, Rodney Stuckey got five of his shots blocked by the Raptors, and as Gabe rightly pointed out above, last season Rodney’s shot blocked % was 16%.
Here’s the point that I’m trying to communicate but not doing well: These past few games are not isolated instances. Rodney Stuckey has always played the same way as he is playing right now — over-dribbling, over-penetrating, and over-shooting at a below-average efficiency.
The reason that I’m harping on it so much right now is because Rodney’s usage rate has skyrocketed this year, and his shooting % has plummeted. Rodney has the highest usage rate of anyone on the team, including our best offensive weapon thus far, and the worst shooting percentage. That is troubling.
Yes, there are other interrelated issues, but I see no reason to not blame Stuckey for consistently taking bad shots (e.g., driving into the trees and getting his shots swatted). When you kill five of your team’s possessions against the Raptors by taking bad shots and getting them blocked, especially when you’re the PG and you have a SG like Ben Gordon who is simply on fire — that’s on you. Isn’t it?
As Gabe said perfectly,
What’s been worrisome is Stuck has not shown any inclination either towards balancing out his game (driving less, distributing more) or improving on his weaknesses (learning a floater/tear drop).
To me, Rodney looks like the same player as he was last year, he’s just getting used a lot more so his deficiencies are more obvious. It’s early. That could change. I hope it does.
I don’t think I’m putting words in your mouth. You’re pretty vocal when it comes to defending Stuckey.
We’ve addressed what I feel is the TEAMS biggest problem, frontcourt scoring,
The roster’s biggest longer-term problem is undoubtedly our frontcourt, I agree. The challenge for Jod is to find 1-2 quality bigs.
It seems that where we disagree is if our frontcourt deficiencies are driving Rodney’s poor play. To this point in his career, Stuckey has posted average to below average numbers (relative to NBA PGs) almost across the board.
This year, he’s performing even worse. When you compare his career numbers — i.e., when he had a strong supporting cast and was still average to below average — and what he’s putting up this year, I don’t think it’s unfair to single him out and critique his play for what it is — bad. (And in case you’re wondering what my point of reference for “average” is: http://www.wagesofwins.com/LawsonTwoGames.html)
I also don’t think it’s unfair to say that as Rodney Stuckey goes, so go the playoff hopes for the Pistons. Joe’s plan to reconstruct the Pistons hinges on the play of Stuckey. And up to this point in his career, he’s looked like a young, below-average PG who’s shown flashes of being something better.
Holy wall of text, Batman.
Here’s hoping Rip and Tay make as big a difference as I’m hoping they will.
@gulker:
I don’t think I’m putting words in your mouth. You’re pretty vocal when it comes to defending Stuckey.
Yeah man, you are. I can defend a player and be concerned with their play at the same time. To say “Honestly, how can you look at his play and not be at all concerned?” is to put words into my mouth and misrepresent my opinion.
I also don’t think it’s unfair to say that as Rodney Stuckey goes, so go the playoff hopes for the Pistons.
Nice take on my oft-repeated “As Charlie Villanueva goes, so goes the Pistons offense”. Our backcourt can average 60 a night, and it has been even with Rodney sky-is-falling-oh-my-god-kill-me-now Stuckey. But if our ONLY frontcourt scorer has a bad night, we’ll lose a lot, lot, lot more often than when he has an above average night.
Our playoff hopes have a lot more to do with Charlie Villanueva than they do Rodney Stuckey. A four scorer backcourt can lose a leg and still fight. A one scorer frontcourt is sitting on tremenous risk.
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/john_schuhmann/11/05/clutch.numbersgame/index.html
according to this, Ben Gordon’s TS% goes up 8th best in the league in clutch situations, and Sheed’s goes down 10th most. lmao
Rodney sky-is-falling-oh-my-god-kill-me-now Stuckey.
Who’s putting words in whose mouth?
. A four scorer backcourt can lose a leg and still fight. A one scorer frontcourt is sitting on tremenous risk.
You will notice that my concerns about Stuckey have nothing to do with his scoring totals.
No player is taking a greater percentage of his shots from beyond the arc than Boston’s Rasheed Wallace. So far this season, 40 of Sheed’s 53 field-goal attempts (75.5 percent) have been from 3-point range.
@brgulker:
Who’s putting words in whose mouth?
I’m not putting words in your mouth, I’m making fun of you.
Gotcha. Good to know.
Oh you two.
“And up to this point in his career, he’s looked like a young, below-average PG who’s shown flashes of being something better.”
That’s a pretty bold statement, even if you don’t like the guy. Below-average? By the stats, according to Yahoo Fantasy’s player rankings– and you should appreciate this because stats give you chubbies– Stuckey is the definition of “above-average.” Not great, but above-average in almost every way.
Average PG ppg: 10
Stuckey: 15.8
Average PG apg: 2.8
Stuckey: 4
Average PG spg: .9
Stuckey: 1.2
Oh yeah, minor thing– he leads the entire league in PG rebounding and is 2nd only to Kobe in rebounding for guards. Don’t say he’s below-average. That’s simply not true. Sure his fg% sucks right now, and I still maintain he’s the ugliest finisher in the league, and his usage rate is much too high (especially Barry Gibb’s utter offensive assassinry), but he’s clearly not “below average.” Plus our best player hasn’t played the last four games. He’ll be fine. This rebounding though is completely unexpected, utterly needed, and extremely encouraging for the year(s) ahead.
@Joel:
+1
Wall o’ Text(tm) in 3, 2…
Here’s an alternative way of defining average, and I’m done (which I already posted): http://bit.ly/etph8
If you want to know how that’s calculated, take the time to read it for yourself.
Re how good Ben G. is playing — and this is one of those cases where the numbers entirely confirm what the fans’ eyes see — that was kind of what I was getting at re Rip coming back. Are we really going to have the guy who has been BY FAR our best offensive player coming off the bench? And yeah I know bench guys can get big minutes, you don’t have to start to finish, etc., but how are we going to get enough minutes for all the guards?
@Toledo Joe
Trade Tay and start Rip at the SF? I’m down. The 3-guard lineup this time around has looked straight money.
My guess is, Will Bynums minutes are going to shrink, as well as Jerebko’s and Daye’s, with Rip playing back up small forward.
Even if that’s your definition of “average PG,” the only categories where Stuck comes out below average are PPS and adjusted FG%. He’s well above average in net possessions, rebounds, FT attempts/makes, TO/48, etc. The only thing he’s struggling at right now is with the FG%, and he’s making up for it by getting to the line a ton.
By your own logic he’s not “below-average,” unless the only thing of importance a player can do is score efficiently. Otherwise, he’s doing nearly everything else at an above-average– and in some cases ELITE (rebounding)– level.
Joel:
The problem isn’t simply that Stuckey is way below average with his scoring efficiency. The problem is that he is way below average with his scoring efficiency and STILL shoots the most shots per minute of anyone on the team. He’s taken 82 shots in 185 minutes, practically one shot for every two minutes of playing time.
His secondary statistics are holding up, and his rebounding is a plus, all of which confirms the size/athleticism/effort are all there. But, he’s been absolutely terrible at getting the ball to go in the basket, and he hasn’t let that fact dissuade him from jacking up more and more shots, to the point where it is canceling out his otherwise positive contributions and making him an overall “below average” player.
In other news, Glen “Big Baby” Davis wants to play for an NFL team when his competitive eating career is over.
I love Rip, I love BG, I like what MFWB brings to the table, and without getting into the debate about Stuckey, I’m hoping to see good things from him.
But I really, really don’t like the three-guard lineup, even when I like all three guards. Rip is not an SF (nor are any of the other guards). I know this is a roster problem, I know a trade could balance the roster out, but I would hate to see Rip go. So I’m torn.
Joel,
One of us is doing our math wrong.
Stuck is getting .71 PPS, roughly. The rest of his numbers are right around average, except rebounding (which is giving a boost to net possessions, but I’m not anticipating his rebounding to stay this high).
I’m still with Gabe. He’s shooting almost as much as anyone on the roster, and he’s getting almost nothing out of those shots.
It’s important to note that Stuckey only took 10 shots against the Grizzlies. Rip, Gordon, Tay and Villanueva all took more shots and free throws per minute than the Stuckster.
It’s important to note that Stuckey only took 10 shots against the Grizzlies.
Rip, BG, Villanueva and Tay all took more shots (and free throws) per minute than the Stuckster.
Stuckey made nice strides in his shooting from his 1st year to his second…fg% went from 40 to 44 and 3pt% went from 19 to 30. We’re only looking at a 5 game sample size right now in which some of our primary scorers haven’t played much and he’s been forced to assume a more prominent role on offense. He’s also gotten no love from the refs this year. I think by the end of the year (assuming our other scoring options stay pretty healthy) he’ll improve upon his second year shooting percentages.
I think the important thing to remember here is that BEN GORDON IS AWESOME. Like, really, really awesome.
Garrett, I’ve been skeptical of Gordon, but thus far, he has been amazing.
I love that move he has where he looks like he’s going to take a pull up, but instead does a little in-and-out … freezes the D almost everytime.
And I had no idea he could finish at the rim like he’s been doing … I’ve been very impressed with him.
Just throwing this out there; I think Tayshaun’s sore back is related to the toe injury since those can mess up your knees and back. I don’t think there’s any plotting with him. I’d watch Rip, though.
“I’d watch Rip, though.” With the exception of AI, has anyone on the team ever faked an injury? That just seems a little much…
OT: Austin Daye’s latest tweet.
At cheesecake factory eatin chocolate moose cake http://yfrog.com/janr1j
It’s a good start, but I want the guy hammering down like 6 chicken breasts a sitting for 5 meals a day!
If any of you also go to the UM, then you’d know that Blimpie Burger is definitely where its at. If I had the money, I could eat their burgers breakfast, lunch, dunner and for my taco bell fourth meal.
Hopefully Rip and Tay will be back by Sunday. The Pistons are playing Philly, Charlotte and Washington next week. The first two are 2-2 and Washington is 2-3. Never too early to start jockeying for a playoff spot.
True. I think its safe to call Orlando a loss; they’re pretty steamed up over that big win we had. But I think 3-0 is reasonable to ask against the other 3 if Rip is up to speed. Also I think Charlie has been steadily improving and looks like he’s getting up to speed. Hopefully we can start seeing 18 ppg in the next weeks.
First of all let me say, I’m estatic that the season has started. Summers on DBB are freaking horrendous. So is great to see debates and discourse about topics that matter, presented with very sound arguments and facts to back up ones opinions. Now I’ll be grading your papers later and giving everyone their final grades in debate class. LOL.
No seriously though, wonderful to see everyone back on their A game now that the season has started. Let me weigh in on the Stuckey conversation. While I don’t think Stuckey is the biggest problem on the team and I definately see talent there, I think considering him a second tier point guard behind Paul, D. Williams, Tony Parker, maybe Chauncey, etc. is premature. I haven’t seen enough consistency from Stuck, this year or last, to be considering him in the NBA Second Team of good point guards. I’ve seen flashes but not consistency. The playoffs his rookie season and how he was the first half of last season was very tantalizing. But he can’t keep going 5 of 18 guys. I don’t care if his shots were blocked or not. I know he can’t seem to buy a call, but still, 5 for 18 is not going to lead to success for the Stones, period. Now what I don’t understand is this, usually when you have a team full of guys who can drive very well (MFWB, Stuck, Gordon) that usually makes life easier for your Bigs because they can get easy bunnies off drive and dish baskets. But that doesn’t seem to be happening with us. Our guards could actually made our offensively inept Bigs look better. Just seems like the Kobe’s of the world drive and sometimes dish to their Bigs for easy dunks and drop-ins. That doesn’t seem to happen with us and I can’t figure out why. Other than CV, our Bigs don’t have great offense but I think all of them can drop in a 5 footer off of a drive and nice dish. I don’t know whether to scream at them for that 2nd qtr or applaud them for the other 3.
it’s great to see (sorry).
Damn, when you’re typing into this little text box, you don’t realize your post is so darn long. Sorry guys.
I wonder if non-Detroit fans even know who Rodney Stuckey is?
Nope. Only Chicago and whomever it was he lit up for 38 points around the same time he lit Chicago up. I think Stuck is very promising but like some of the guys said, you have to have some variety to your game. If he develops a consistent jumper and tear drop or floater and gets better about driving and dishing sometimes, booooooooooooy watch the “F” out.
@E-Double: Yes, if he completely revamps and perfects his game he’ll be a pretty good player. I agree.
@ J Dre,
Not completely revamp, maybe just fine tweak J. He’s like a bull in a china shop with no finesse. You have to have a little finesse to your game, you know. The great ones do man. D-Wade will kill you 10 different ways man. Not just drive on you or hit the occasional J. That cat could dice you like a surgeon and never use the same knife/weapon twice. Once Stuck learns some finesse and expands his game. Boooooyyyyyyyyyy, watch yo’ mouth. But I’m just talking about Shaft, I mean Stuckey. Don’t know if your old enough to catch that Shaft/Isaac Hayes reference Bro.
you’re
I can dig it.
@E-Double: Yeah, I know Shaft. A few years before my time, but I still know it. And I see what you’re saying- sure, driving wildly to the hoop and getting the three point play looks cool, but it can only work so often. That’s fair. Tops on my wishlist is that he can start hitting all the open 3s he gets. I don’t know how many times last season I watched him brick some easy ones. That alone would help him step it up to the next level- open the court and be able to take his man off the dribble. We’ll see if it ever comes along.
I think we’ll all have a better idea about Stuckey when the roster is healthy and he’s had everyone to work with.I’ve been a big supporter of Stuckey but if his game has’nt improved by the next 20 games or so then maybe it’s time for JOD to reconsider.Three thing I’ve notice if he could just dish off a couple of times a game when he drives to the basket ,hit his damn free throws it seems like he missing 2 to three a game ,and finally stop and pull up for the short shot or bring it back out if the guys got you beat to the spot. Probably all points you guys have made ,haven’t read all the post.
Wow, you boys need to chill the fuck out. We’re 5 games in. Stuckey has been disappointing. I hope he improves. Let’s move on.
@colin:
+1
I’m with you, and as I said above, “I’m just hoping we can all avoid getting our collective panties in a bunch until our rotation is set and healthy.”
I’m with you, and as I said above, “I’m just hoping we can all avoid getting our collective panties in a bunch until our rotation is set and healthy.”
For sure. That’ll give you hemorrhoids.
And with no Preparation H(errmann)…
“I’m just hoping we can all avoid getting our collective panties in a bunch until our rotation is set and healthy.”
speak for yourself, I wear man pants. boxers, never briefs DRAWS!
Wall of text?
Bebound?
WTFallaway?
Is Mike Payne coming to the darkside?
Brgulker doesn’t like it when you talk about players that have a good night without first referencing their poor TS% or their below 11 assist per game average.
OT: Boozer’s playing some solid D tonight on Duncan, he’s definitely got the tools to be a solid McDyess-like post defender. Kuester could definitely get someone like him to play consistent defense on most nights, plus the automatic 20-10 in the post.
If it wasn’t for the risk of Boozer walking this summer, I’d pull the Tay for Boozer deal (or 3-team with Portland) in a heartbeat, especially considering Jerebko’s solid play at SF as of late. All we need from JJ is 20 mpg of what he gave us the last 2 games, since Rip will be closing games at the 3. CV would obviously be much more comfortable (and much less of a liability) coming off the bench like he has his whole career. I’m getting ahead of myself, but we could be downright scary.
I don’t think anyone can get Boozer to do anything he doesn’t want to do except by dangling a few dollar bills in front of his face. He’s a good rebounder, but if you taped a bunch of dollar bills to the ball, he’d average 30 rebounds a game.
Let’s do this Tay for Booozer thing. Serial. Heck, why not throw in Rip and Maxie for AK47? Wow. I just won us a title.
@QD…+1 and that’s not the philosophy of the Pistons organization, nor is it the type of player the Pistons have usually had (AI was an exception, but it was apparent to me from the beginning we were trading for his expiring contract, and not for AI himself). I am not an insider, but I feel confident that we could have had Boozer this summer if we wanted to. I can see a deal for Boozer’s expiring contract, but not Boozer himself.
Jacob why would you ever want AK47? He’s making $16 mil a year for 11 ppg and 5 rebounds, I would take Rip any day over that. I think we’ve all established how important Rip is to the offense.
V I agree that the pistons didn’t want Boozer, and that’s why they didn’t pull the trigger on that 3 team swap. With the cap shrinking, we would let him walk and get a player of far less caliber in return.
Rips only majorly important to the offense because we have no post presence right now
Rips only majorly important to the offense because we have no post presence right now”
Rip is arguably our 3rd best defender as well. If we had Rip. Jennings doesn’t beat us. You can add a few others to that list from the games that we’ve lost thus far.
Exactly, without question Rip probably would have helped us grab wins against the bucks and Raps, but I mean without question if we had a post presence that could give us 20 and 10, Rip would become tons more expendable.
Rip’s the best player on our team, completely unique in the NBA, and will be playing at a very consistently high level for the rest of his contract easily. Tay’s the one who will be gone– um, we drafted like 40 SF’s, one of which is LITERALLY his clone with improved offensive skills, more height, and an even more freakish wingspan. Rip’s not going anywhere.
Tay for Gasol/Jaric
Tay for Gasol/Jaric
Tay for Gasol/Jaric
Tay for Gasol/Jaric
If I say it enough it will happen, right?
Would Memphis do that trade? I could understand it if they knew they were gonna lose Gay next summer.
What about Gay/Gasol/Jaric for Tay/Kwame?
I can dream, right?
@Steve Kays
And I will dream with you and we will dream sweet dreams together. Forever. That trade may be the most lopsided trade that actually works money-wise that I’ve ever heard of. But this is “$.05 on the dollar Memphis” we’re talking about. I mean, they trade one Gasol for Kwame already– why not another one?
@Joel
I can hardly wait for such dreams!
I totally forgot that they already had Kwame at one point and for the other Gasol too.
But what do people think about Gay? He’ll be a RFA this summer, and Memphis, is well, Memphis. Any interest in him or are we all still Gay for Daye?
I mean, one team can never have too many UConn guys, right?
I love Gay’s game, but I’m pretty gay on Daye at the moment, especially if we move Tay for a big man who can play. Daye is basically Tay with a higher ceiling, and as much as I like Gay I think we’ve got the SF spot pretty solid with JJ and Daye for the next few years (or decade, if Daye becomes as good as I think he will).
Would Memphis do that trade (Tay for Gasol) because they anticipate losing Gay? Or would they balk because they think they can keep him? Or do we need to get Portland involved to get Memphis a piece that they actually want?
Gay will be a RFA, so even if he wants to leave (and all indications are that he does) he wouldn’t be able to if Memphis matches an offer. So maybe Memphis wouldn’t be willing to trade him on the cheap. Now, Gay is a good player and obviously Daye isn’t ready for full-time work yet. If Memphis would go for a Gay/Gasol/Jaric for Tay/Kwame deal (maybe sweeten the pot with the Wrong DaJuan), then Detroit should absolutely do it.
That might lead to crunch-time lineup problems, though. Do you play three guards and have Gay sit? Go three guards and Gay at PF (ugh)? Sit Stuckey? Sit Gordon? Sit Rip? This counting of fowl embryos is giving me a headache.
I actually would miss Kwame, but Gasol would totally be worth it.
I watched the Jazz/Spurs game last night and the announcer dude said Blair has no ACLs in his knees? Is that possible? If so, I can see why we passed… Kandor cannot fix that which does not exist… even if he is magic…
I don’t remember where I read this, but I’ve heard that Memphis is determined to overpay Gay (to the tune of over 10m a year).
Honestly, Gay’s really not what the Pistons roster needs anyway. He’s a gunner who plays pretty sub-par defense, if we’re trading Tay it should be strictly for a beast C (which Gasol definitely is), and versatile defensive players (guys who can guard SG/SF/PF positions) to fill in the gaps.
On a PER related note… The Memphis roster might end up being the greatest example of why PER doesn’t work as a catch-all metric. Currently, Gasol and Randolph are sporting superstar level PER’s of 24.5 and 22.1, and OJ Mayo (18.4), Rudy Gay (18.4), and AI (19.2) all have kick ass PER’s as well.
And yet… a 1-4 record (and lost both games with AI). And more importantly, they’re dead last in defensive efficiency in the entire league. Funny how Memphis can put out a line-up where every player has a well above average PER, and they still suck. Seems like that might expose a small flaw in the metric.
Ben Gordon = BG187
*shoots self in the head
I think we would need to get a third team involved because I just don’t see how Memphis has any use for Tay especially when they’re giving up their starting C. Maybe if Portland becomes involved and sends Przybilla over to Memphis as part of the package.
Detroit gets Gasol and Jaric (face it, we’re going to have to eat that terrible contract to make it work).
Memphis gets Przybilla and Webster/Outlaw.
Portland gets Tay and Wrong Dejuan.
Everyone’s happy, right? And it works per the Trade Machine.
@Gabe
Hollinger will readily admit that PER doesn’t do a good job of tracking defense. Obviously the horrible defense is the biggest reason why Memphis is losing. PER is more of a measure of offense, so I don’t think the Grizzlies are proving that it’s useless. It just has limitations, like any statistic.
It’d be great if Daye was groomed to take over for Prince, and they could trade Tayshaun and get some value for him before he gets significantly older. We will immediately lose his experience and that will hurt a team trying to make the playoffs, but this is supposed to be a rebuilding year anyways, I don’t want to see him go, but our team is far from competing as-is.
@Joel: “I mean, they trade one Gasol for Kwame already– why not another one?”
Ha, we can only hope.