From MLive’s Patrick Hayes:
Anyone who has watched a Pistons home game this year has surely noticed the empty seats at the Palace of Auburn Hills.
I have no real data for this post, just a feeling that I’ve long had: Do the Pistons have an inordinate number of bandwagon fans compared to other pro teams in the state?
I mean, the reason being given for down attendance everywhere is the economy, which is certainly a factor, I’m not discounting that. Others have pointed out that Hi-Def TVs also play a role, it’s much more comfortable to watch a game at home. […]
Then last year, when the team stumbled and had a bad season (by their standards) for the first time in years, the place quickly became empty again, even during playoff games, and that’s held through the start of this season despite new exciting players and a solid start.
Does the perception that the team is no longer elite make it a less desirable social outing? I mean, it’s certainly not because the team isn’t trying hard to sell tickets … all the players even signed autographs in a special session after last Sunday’s game and there seem to be a many more promotions than ever.
I really enjoy reading Hayes (and if you’re a knowledgeable Pistons fan, you should, too), but you absolutely can’t overstate the economy. If you live in Michigan — a state that continues to lead the nation in unemployment — you’ve either lost your job or you’re worried you might. There’s no middle ground.
With that in mind, “discretionary income” is a fallacy — every frivolous purchase comes with a tinge of guilt. So when it comes to how that money is spent, I can’t blame anyone for opting for something that offers more lasting (and guaranteed) enjoyment than a ball game.
Case in point: Buy a lower bowl ticket (and parking, and beer, and food) for a game and enjoy yourself for two hours (assuming, of course, the game stays competitive that long)? Or stay home, buy NBA 2K10 and get an entire season of enjoyment playing video games for about half the price? Memories are nice, but paying to see a non-playoff game against a non-playoff-caliber opponent on a weekday night is a tough sell, especially once you’re talking about full-sized families instead of a two-person date night.
This might sound sacrilege to some, and it certainly doesn’t apply to all (I promise you, when I was a basketball-starved pre-teen who could count on one hand the number of games I’d seen live, I would have traded anything for a chance to sit in the good seats for a game, even if I was watching Cadillac Anderson and Oliver Miller instead of Isiah Thomas and Vinnie Johnson), but it likely applies to most.
Of course, that value proposition has always existed; it’s obviously not just about getting the most time out of your entertainment dollar or the Palace would never sell out. Consider this a rebuilding year not only for the talent on the court but also the confidence among fans. If you’re reading this site, you’re among the hardest of the hard-core of Pistons fans — and I’m willing to wager even you have no idea from one game to the next if the Pistons will even make the playoffs, let alone make any noise once they get there.
It can actually be a fun process — starting from scratch, taking nothing for granted and re-evaluating everybody — so long as the only thing you’re investing is time on the couch. Everyone agrees that expectations have been lowered, but unfortunately, expectations go a long way in convincing people to buy tickets. If I’m willing to spend a hundred bucks or two without having a damn good idea I’m going to go home happy (ie, win or lose, will the game at least be competitive?), well, I may as well take that dough to the casino where I’ll at least have a chance to win some back.
Don’t get me wrong: I’m not telling people to stay home or boycott the team until the playoffs — I’m just saying I don’t begrudge the fans who are cautious, who have decided they’d rather pocket that money for the time being, who’d rather spend their game nights watching on TV or a bootlegged internet stream while analyzing every play with their DBB brethren in a game thread. When the team deserves the attention, truly deserves it, the fans will turn out to watch it live. And that doesn’t make them bandwagon fans, just realistic ones.
I was just talking about this with a buddy of mine last night. We were watching the Cleveland v. Miami game. Even D-Wad and LeBron couldn’t pack a house last night, there were a lot of empty seats in Miami.
In a normal economy, I still don’t think the Palace sells out every night given the current situation, but it wouldn’t be this bad. I love going to games but I can’t justify with myself buying tickets over a lot of the other things I need…unless someone wants to donate tickets *cough*…Matt…*cough*…what?
Ticket sales in the NBA are driven by wins, which has been well-documented by professional researchers. See here for one example.
I love the Pistons. Yes, I’ve pissed and moaned about our roster for a variety of reasons for several months. But I will still watch around 75 regular season games this year, and I’ll post in blog comments all over the web, etc., etc. But, I’m probably not going to go watch them in person more than once, and I can honestly say that if this team were a 50-win squad, my thought process would be different.
I’m not a bandwagon fan. I’m a fan like everyone else is a fan — fans pay to go watch winners. It’s as simple as that.
I can say as a Canadian Pistons fan livig in Halifax Nova Scotia, I would do antyhing to see a game at the Palace, Ive been to see the Pistons in Boston every season for the last bunch of years seeing its the closest destination to see a game. When I was like 6 my bro and cousin made a trip to Detroit to see the badboys.
Hey do any of you guys post on the CBS boards?
For me, going to games is only really fun when the stakes are high or there’s a rivalry. Yeah, it’s usually a good time to go and see games regardless, but that feeling of worth isn’t there. It’s not worth the money, even when we had two incomes, to make a 45 minutes one way drive for a 2 hour game. I’d rather watch on my 50″ or at a friend’s house or a bar. I also hate ending up with bad seats or having the wrong crowd around…like a bunch of screaming 14 year old girls on a field trip who all have a thing for Rip.
I try to make it to about two to three games a year. As a student, I don’t have a lot of time or money to spend. It certainly is rough here in Michigan, but I honestly believe the public perception of the Pistons right now is that they stink. I hate to admit it, but there are a lot of bandwagon Piston fans in the state. Guys that could tell you the salary of every Red Wing under contract still think Rasheed plays for Detroit. We’re a great sports state, but basketball seems to be notch below the other sports here. I think it is just overwhelmingly obvious in this state because of the high popularity of hockey here that isn’t as prevalent in other sports towns.
I agree with hayes, to an extent, but think that basketball fans tend to be more fair weather. The wings were having trouble selling out games for the regular season and the playoffs, even in cup winning years, and I think regular success breeds complacency in wings fans. The tigers start to be competitive, and they now rank 4th in home attendance. Somehow, ford field sold out for the last 5 years before the fans came to their senses and stopped coming. The big house sells our for horrible teams. I think the palace will sell out again when we are more successful, regardless of the economy.
The economy, yes, it plays a factor. Plenty of people don’t want to spend the money on parking and when getting in there, even though you dont have too, people feel they need to eat and drink. also, even though opening night last year, i think, was announced as a sell-out, I dont believe that for a second. Their were a ton of empty seats. Which leads to the next factor, many of us were tired of the “same-old same-old” with this team. They were not going to go anywhere with the way they were currently constructed and many knew that. Certain guys (Rasheed for one) mailing it in, then the whole AI mess, people shouldnt have to spend that kind of money to see that. Me personally, I like watching on TV..It’s really the best way to view the whole game, you see a lot more, and its cheaper, more comfortable and one doesnt have to deal with the obnocious A-holes that go there to get drunk and/scream in your ear like anyone on the court is gonna hear you and listen to your stupid opinions when your half way up the side. If the game gets rediculiously out of hand and not in our favor, or not worth watching, you can change the channel and not have to fight through a crowed and parking lot. But the Pistons ar not the only team that isnt packing a house, the Red Wings, a vass majority of people dont even give the Wings attention until the playoffs start, cuz they are expected to get there and go compete for the championship, not to mention that hockey is not as marketable as the NBA..and this is “Hockey Town”. Baseball, this is not a baseball town, more people go for the experience and to sit outside on a nice day or evening is more the reason. The Pistons have to earn back the fanbase of old and get people to go out to the palace and not experience so many “home games”..which is the circle of life in sports i guess.
Went to the Pistons/Raps game a week or so back in Toronto. I thought the Palace was expensive! The ACC definitely makes games in Detroit seem like a bargain. Check out stubhub where you can pick up tickets for literally 5 bucks.
I feel like part of the reason I stay home is because its just not a great atmosphere at the palace. I would much rather go to a baseball game because its actually relaxing and fun. Pistons games beat you over the head with advertisements and sometimes it feels like a circus (Scream as loud as you can if you want a dominos pizza!!!!). But yes, i do still enjoying going from time to time.
Thanks for the love MW.
I absolutely wasn’t trying to gloss over the economic thing. I understand that’s a part of it, and didn’t mean to suggest people who can’t afford to go are bandwagon fans.
The bandwagon issue, I’ve felt since the 2004 season, was even though the building was selling out, it wasn’t because people were there because they loved basketball.
Bandwagon fans are not the people who comment here or other blogs, think about the team nonstop, etc. I just meant that the casual fans, the ones that every team tries to reach, seem to give up on the Pistons more quickly than other Detroit teams. No science to that, just a feeling I’ve had.
The bandwagon issue, I’ve felt since the 2004 season, was even though the building was selling out, it wasn’t because people were there because they loved basketball.
If bandwagon fans is defined as something like, “people who buy tickets when the team wins a lot,” then I guess most fans would qualify. But, I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
It’s no coincidence that our sellout streak ended last year … Yes, the recession bore its teeth hardest in the D last year, but it’s not as if the economy was booming over the past 2-3 years. Yet, fans still came to see a winning team. When the team was no longer a top-tier contender and became a losing team, fans stopped coming to games.
Did fans stop watching? I have no idea. I suppose we could figure out by analyzing FSN’s ratings or something.
But the general rule has been proven true for our beloved Pistons: when the home team wins a lot, people come to games; when the home team loses more than it wins, people don’t come to games.
Oh, and Patrick, I definitely agree with Matt. Your column is a must-read.
I always thought that Tigers fans were the quickest to give up on their team. But maybe that’s because there’s 162 games a year instead of half that many.
But, br, does that make them band wagon fans then? Red wings fans stopped coming to games, even though they were still winning, b/c the economy/apathy. The stones kept selling out until they started to lose.
Craig,
It depends on how it’s defined, I suppose. I suppose if I were defining “band wagon fan,” I wouldn’t necessarily link it to (and only to) attendance. I’d consider a band wagon fan to be someone who is only interested in the team when the team is enjoying immense success. Certainly attendance could be one factor in that equation, but definitely not the only one and perhaps not even the most important one.
As I said, if the Pistons were a 50+ win team, I’d probably go to more than one game, even though I live 1.5 hours away, gas is expensive, parking is expensive, and I’m a very busy guy right now. I’m sure there are many more like me. But I’m still very interested in them, as my propensity to post lengthy blog posts would attest
Yeah, none of this is scientific as far as discerning what a “band wagon fan” is, but i’ve always felt with the local sports that the stones always seemed to be the most disposable when they were losing. But when they’re winning, everybody was on board. Probably only because I’m way more invested in them then the other teams, i guess.
If they want to boost ticket sales they just need to drop beer prices significantly. Yes, you’ll be losing a bit of money charging $3 instead of $8, but if I could go to a basketball game and get drunk, affordably, AT the game, I would be much more likely to go (and more often) and I think a lot of people would be too. Really, that’s my biggest beef with the game experience– too expensive booze.
Think about this: this is the first sports season that Detroit doesn’t have a great or dominant team in one of the 4 big sports in what, 15 year? 17 years? Pistons are rebuilding (in a way that the hard core fans can enjoy, but rebuilding nonetheless), the Lions are the Lions, the Tigers came close but now appear to be cutting payroll (and maybe trading who I consider their most popular non-pitcher), and the Red Wings will be lucky to get home ice with all the injuries and holes in their roster.
I’ve heard before that major sports compete for rear ends in seats, if one team is great and another isn’t the good team will get the eyebaalls (and tickets). I don’t believe that, the sports don’t ::really:: compete. I believe sports success provides synergy and fan interest across leagues (Lions excepted to everything in the last 1-2 sentences). I think it’s mostly the economy, of course, but I also think that the anti-synergy effect also plays a part- what is there to be excited about?
The way I define a “bandwagon fan” is not someone who stops coming to games or watching games when their team is losing. But someone who stops watching their team when they start losing…and starts watching another winning team as if they were a fan all along.
I have to admit, back in the late 90’s/early 2000’s I became a Sacramento fan. Mostly because of C-Webb, and partly because we were awful. But you better believe anytime The Pistons played Sacramento I was sporting the Red, White and Blue unabashedly.
I have to admit, back in the late 90’s/early 2000’s I became a Sacramento fan. Mostly because of C-Webb, and partly because we were awful. But you better believe anytime The Pistons played Sacramento I was sporting the Red, White and Blue unabashedly.
And, their offense was a thing of beauty.
And, they were battling against the Lakers.
Two other good reasons to be a fan of Sacramento at that time, which I was too.
@Alex - Me too on Sactown. That was some of the best basketball ever played.
This is your definition:
“The way I define a “bandwagon fan” is not someone who stops coming to games or watching games when their team is losing. But someone who stops watching their team when they start losing…and starts watching another winning team as if they were a fan all along.”
That sums it up. Someone who’s into winning for winning’s sake, but once that team loses, jumps ship. We saw it briefly when the D was “America’s Team,” but now people love the Lake Show or Cleveland. Once those teams sink to obscurity, then the next darling team comes along. I don’t think Michiganders/Pistons fans, as a class of people, are more likely to act this way than any other.
When I say, “This is your definition,” I mean Alex has defined it the best of all of us.
I won’t rehash what everyone else has said. Another factor is that these Pistons are no-names in a league that only applies its marketing leverage when there is a star to promote. So the team gets no synergy from the NBA or its national media outlets, which is what you need to get Joe Bandwagon into the Palace alongside the true believers.
LanierFan: Speaking of which, what’s up with the lack of hype for Ben Gordon? The guy is an assassin, but doesn’t get any love from the league or media.
If Barry Gibb doesn’t make the All-Star team the whole system just needs to be scrapped. Not to mention the best center in the west not even being on the ballet (Kaman), Amare being listed as a center, Duncan as a PF, the inclusion of AI… it’s just all fucked. I think fans shouldn’t even be allowed to vote. We’re gonna have Vince Carter starting for the East. Just think about that.
Not to be completely overlooked, I think, is simple geography. It can be quite a hike to the Palace from most of Macomb County, downtown, downriver, or even So. Oakland County. I think the economy and the modest expectations for the team are probably bigger factors, but the fact that the Palace’s location makes it inconvenient so inconvenient for so much of the area should not be forgotten either.
Matt M: great point. Same goes for a lot of Wayne County, or even worse, Washtenaw County. I live just east of Ann Arbor and it takes me over an hour to get to the Palace.
LanierFan: Speaking of which, what’s up with the lack of hype for Ben Gordon? The guy is an assassin, but doesn’t get any love from the league or media.
Pretty much the whole NBA world had a boner for him during the Boston series, as I recall. Rose stole plenty of the spotlight, too, but I recall Ben getting plenty of love.
But throughout his career, I think you’re probably right. I would venture to say that a lot of it has to do with winning, or lack thereof, in Chicago. They were pretty much mediocre, and he was pretty much considered their best player. Best players on mediocre teams tend to get the “Meh” treatment.
Can’t deny the location of the Palace is truly awful. I live in Dearborn, and I shouldn’t have to drive 50 miles to see the “Detroit” NBA team play.
I suspect that the local dealmakers really expected the “automation alley” thing to really expand most Detroit area people’s ideas of what makes up “Metro Detroit,” but manufacturing has stagnated and now Auburn Hills is a remote outpost on the frontier.
There are many other problems, too - the traffic situation near the Palace is pretty bad, and of course unemployment plays a big part, but I think definitions are the most important factor. When we say that someone is not a fan who isn’t willing to let their favorite team make them miserable by losing, then I guess I can happily say I’m not a fan. I don’t buy into this nonsense at all - that these highly-paid athletes need my loyalty so much that I’m expected to get emotionally wrapped up in a losing season…for what reason? What a load of hogwash.
People who watch sports do so because they find the competition entertaining. I have too much to do in my life to view sports as anything other than entertainment. If the team is not competitive, I’m not entertained, I’m not watching. If that defines me out of the “Fan” category, I can accept that.
brgulker: Bulls were mediocre, and he didn’t even start for them all the time. If he doesn’t get the pub he deserves, he can probably blame Scott Skiles.
Sorry, but I think both of the reasons given (economy and rebuilding) are hogwash.
Check the unemployment statistics for Oregon and they look a lot like Michigan’s, but the Blazers are having no trouble selling out the Rose Garden. You may not sell as many luxury suites but pricing and sales can entice people to get to the arena and spend on concessions, where the real money is.
And while winning IS important to selling tickets, its not just bandwagon fans who are turning away from the Pistons. If the team was in rebuild mode I buy this logic, but… THE TEAM IS NOT REBUILDING. Your starting SG, SF, and C are the same guys we’ve had for most of the decade. Your biggest free agent signing (Gordon) is not really an up-and-comer anymore at 27. This is just a bad, poorly constructed team. If it was young players or unselfish players I could get behind and support (like the JYD, Jon Barry, Big Ben Pistons) I could stomach losing like in years past.
Simply put, this Pistons team has very little to offer a fan when Hamilton, Prince, and Wallace are playing most of the game. Yeah, Bynum is a good story but he’s the 4th guard. Daye and the other rookies are promising but they’re stuck behind Prince and Villanueva.
After years of success Pistons fans are a little spoiled and being an 8th seed just isn’t that exciting. Rebuild with youth. Stack your roster with character. But don’t sign a bunch of gunners who don’t pass or play D. Why Joe Dumars thinks this is a good idea is beyond me. Its not. Fans aren’t stupid and they’re going to turn away from a terrible product.
Joe Dumars has presided over a steady decline of this franchise for over a half decade. Either Joe has to acknowledge that a real rebuilding is necessary or the Pistons need a new GM who will.
@mat
Have you watched any of the games? Just curious. Everything you said is what people were saying before the season started. Then the season started, and nobody says those things anymore, because they’ve turned out to be not true (re: new guys who don’t pass and don’t play D). Oh, and Tayshaun’s done for a while, possibly the season, possibly (horrible thought) for good with a serious back injury. Just another thing you’d know if you, you know, watched the team. And being that we’re now one of the youngest teams in the league, have three rookies on the roster, and all our FA acquisitions are under 27 years of age, I find your assumption that “WE’RE NOT REBUILDING” a little confusing, given that Dumars has said we’re rebuilding…
Dumars also said the team would rebuild while it kept winning for several years. What was the net of that portion of the rebuild and last years 8 seed team? Stuckey and Maxiell? If the team was rebuilding they wouldn’t be playing veterans for so many minutes or signing 27 years olds to build around.
This team is far more interesting with Hamilton and Prince out, as they currently are. But those guys remain on the team, which is waste not only of our time, but theirs.
Also, I don’t think it makes sense to compare the employment situation in Oregon and Michigan. The numbers may be close, but the sense of desperation that permeates MI just doesn’t exist in OR. Even after the national economy improves, MI is still going to have huge problems due to our reliance on manufacturing. I don’t know for sure, but my impression of OR is that their high unemployment figures are driven by EXTREMELY high figures in the Portland Metro area. Furthermore, it seems that alot of that is due to the large number of college graduates who have flocked to the city and now can’t get jobs. The city also attracts large numbers of runaways and homeless individuals because of the climate and availability of city services. Having recently visited Portland, I know it doesn’t feel anything like SE MI. I’m guessing people there are quite a bit less worried and, therefore, more willing to spend their money. Also, they have one of the easiest teams in the league to root for. It’s not really a fair comparison.
If the team was rebuilding they wouldn’t be playing veterans for so many minutes or signing 27 years olds to build around.
Since when is signing a player in their prime anathema to rebuilding? You staked out an extreme (and extremely stupid) position and now you’re gonna get picked apart by anyone who feels like poking holes in your shoddy argument.
Maybe theres some more recent data out there but when I search NBA teams average age the pistons are 11th and one of the highest for a non-contending team. How is that rebuilding?
Since when is signing a player in their prime anathema to rebuilding?
Since always. If you’re rebuilding you want young player who are on the way towards a peak. You want guys to grow together (like the Blazers and Thunder have done.) If you’re contending you sign players at their peak.
By all means let me know why my opinion is stupid. But the key part is WHY.
My guess on the average age is that ben and chucker are swinging the pendulum a little bit.
rebuilding doesn’t have to be from the floor up, either, mat, as you’re referencing. Most times, teams hit rock bottom when rebuilding, and Jod has stated that isn’t his intention. But his intentions are to rebuild, as he’s stated several times to the media.
@Colin
Those are mostly correct points about Oregon, especially about the general gloominess. Obviously there are differences, but there were a number of years when attendance in Portland went way down. It wasn’t because the economy was bad or because the team wasn’t winning enough, it was simply a middling team that the fanbase couldn’t get excited about. Even with great access and location and a team that routinely made the playoffs people stopped coming. Their management was fired, they committed to rebuilding, and the fans came back. Detroit needs to do the same.
Were you (mat) similarly displeased the last time we went into “rebuilding” mode? Ben was 26, Chauncey was 26, Rip was 25, we had 32 year old Jon Barry, Chucky was 26, Cliff Robinson was 35…
The Pistons haven’t hit “rock bottom” since ‘94. We did the whole “draft a superstar to build around” thing. It didn’t work. It never has for Detroit. And Dumars lived that rock bottom. Pretty sure he’s not going to let that happen, and how he does that is by “retooling” as opposed to gutting teams, tanking, and hoping for a Lebron to land in our lap (which happened, actually, but he fucked that one up pretty good).
@ Craig
Avg age isn’t a perfect measure, but this just isn’t that young of a team. Yeah, a few guys skew things but tay, rip, gordan, bynum even aren’t young guys either.
Joe D may intend to rebuild without hitting bottom, but thats just not how it works. Very few, if any, teams work this way. What he’s attempting to do is the same thing most perpetually failing franchises do. Avoid rebuilding and build towards contending. It almost never works in the NBA, unless maybe you’re the Lakers.
Mat, you could look at chicago and argue that the traditional way of rebuilding isn’t that reliable either.
@ Joel
I wasn’t upset the last go round. When we lost hill and the team was all about ‘go to work’, I could get behind that. Adding 25 year old guys to a rebuilding team is smart (notice I’m not dissing the Villanueva acquisition too hard - I don’t like his game, but the talent is there and he’s young).
I’m also happy to cheer for Will Bynum, but he should be the 2nd and 3rd guard not 4th.
Having older guys on the roster as role players (e.g. Barry) is fine. Building your team around them is not rebuilding.
I’m not sure that bg and jon barry are a good comparison, either. And why isn’t this team all about going to work? Seems like they compete hard.
@Craig
There are many ways to fail, but the model for success are pretty consistent.
Either get rebuild from scratch (Clev, Orl, Det) or be a major market and obtain elite players via trade and free agency (LA, Boston).
Even the consistent winners like Utah and San Antonio had to have awful years to get high draft picks (for Williams and Duncan).
@Mat:
Your opinion isn’t stupid, your argument is. Or rather, not well thought out. It was childish of me to call it stupid.
That being said, when your central point is that Ben Gordon is (Gasp!) 27, you’re argument is pretty weak. One model of rebuilding is to gut everything (including management) and sign only young players. I think it would be pretty stupid, however, to conclude that there is no other way to rebuild a team. I think we have a perfect balance of young guns and veterans. You made it sound like a bad thing that Tay, Rip, and Wallace are here, but Ben Wallace is the reason we are .500 rather than looking for our second win. Should we not have signed him? No, that would have been a terrible mistake. Would I like to exchange Rip and or Tay for a young center? Of course. And while I’m at it, I’ll take Michael Jordan’s hot ass girlfriend, too.
You argue that you want to get player’s before they enter their prime, but I don’t see how you could be upset with getting a player like BG at the beginning of his prime. He’ll most likely be improving or producing consistently for the duration of his contract. Hopefully, we’ll have completed the rebuilding process before then.
Basically, it seems like you’re frustrated with what’s happend and got on here and shot off an emotional post that wasn’t really thought through at all or based on any real analyis of what has actually transpired this season. I mean, you basically implied that Joe D should be fired. You’ll find a fair share of his critics on this site, but I’ve yet to hear anyone call for his job (except for sauce, but he’s crazy).
While rare, mat, your examples fail to acknowledge out latest championship, which was almost exclusively obtained through trades and shrewd fa signings. The same architect is at work here, so I’m expecting a similar trajectory (hopefully).
another possible consideration: as the job market in michigan continues to suck, people move away, so there are less piston fans within driving distance of the palace.
…and more piston fans watching on cable up north, or living elswhere and watching through league pass or on their computers.
I’m also happy to cheer for Will Bynum, but he should be the 2nd and 3rd guard not 4th.
WTF? Who do you think should be the first guard? Stuckey? Do they play together? Defenses would just collapse into the lane - LIKE LAST YEAR.
And CV is ok because he’s 25, but BG is too old at 27 even though he’s a better player? That’s just arbitrary. The idea of rebuilding is to acquire good players that fit the needs of the team and will produce for years to come. BG fits that description. Explain how signing quality players who will produce at or above their current level for the next 5 years is inconsistent with rebuilding.
Well, our first home games were with Oklahoma, Philly, Charlotte and Orlando. Three expected poor teams and an expected blowout. Not the best of draws.
I for one hope to hit up a discounted game once Rip is healthy and playing again. Maybe we’re just stupid and the fans all miss Rip and Tay? But seriously. We’re rebuilding, so uncertainty is there for many people. People who want to see competitive play and wins and don’t want to see a clunker loss. Hopefully things will pick up as the season goes on and the team gets better and the fans get acquainted with the new guys. (Though we may have to have a WilSukCox Pinata night at the palace sometime in January).
We just need some excitement and confidence. It’ll be better once Rip gets back and we can be a little more innovative on offense. Or we can educate casual fans about the pleasure of watching improving team play even if we lose.
@ Colin
My central point isn’t that signing Gordon was wrong. It was wrong for this team, but if they didn’t have Hamilton and Prince, it might have made sense. When your 4 best players are established veterans who aren’t going to get better thats not rebuilding. Thats treading water, which is a recipe for mediocrity. Which is what fans can’t stomach, more so than a few seasons of losing.
Your assumption that being 500 is somehow a good thing is what I take issue with. What good does that do? Does 500 attract fans to the Palace? Quite clearly not.
I’m far less emotional about this subject than I was 6 months ago. But there was some room for argument then. Hey, maybe Gordon and Villanueva would be all stars and Stuckey would blossom with more responsibility. It was unlikely but I had no way to predict the future. Well now, with the season in full swing, theres a lot less conjecture and a lot more reality. This is a bad team. It is not a young team. Theres very little hope for the future and Joe Dumars is to be blamed.
Joe has done a lot and I can’t argue with those who say he deserves our patient. But how many years will be enough? This team has been mismanaged for over half a decade. How long can the Billups and Hamilton acquisitions keep being the reason Dumars keeps his job?
Location is everything. we wouldn’t be having this discussion If the Palace was in the vicinity of comerica park, Ford Field! 2nd to economics it’s a matter of convenience. Detroit is central to most major cities in SE Mich. while Auburn hills is just…
In spite of their record. the Lions aint crying over empty seats.
if the recent stretch of good teams is to be considered the template, it’s worth noting that the only pistons draftees contributing to the title team were tayshaun, memo, and lindsey hunter, who had wandered off mid-career to pick up a ring with the lakers.
in 2005, the bench was worse than I remember after subtracting memo, corliss, and mike james. that year, the only homegrown guys playing real minutes were tayshaun and lindsey, with delfino playing in 30 games and me refusing to count darko.
the celtics drafted pierce (and rondo and perkins), but won a title only after turning al jefferson and not much else into KG and ray allen via trade, i.e. without any high-profile free agent signings.
the shaq/wade team started with trading for shaq, and the supporting cast was constructed by the usual old-guy signings (payton and mourning) along with an amazingly convoluted trade during the summer which added posey, antoine walker, and jason williams.
it almost seems like the spurs are the only team to draft a title winning squad since michael and scottie.
@ Colin
“CV is ok because he’s 25, but BG is too old at 27 even though he’s a better player? That’s just arbitrary.”
Not arbitrary. Theres a lot of evidence for when players improve and when they plateau. Villanueva was a better value for the money and should improve, given the arc of players with similar talent levels. BG is what he is. He’ll win the Pistons a few games, be entertaining at times, but he’ll also cost them many. What he won’t do is win a championship.
“The idea of rebuilding is to acquire good players that fit the needs of the team and will produce for years to come. BG fits that description.”
Disagree. Rebuilding is acquiring talent towards winning a championship in 3, 4, 5 or more years. The “needs of the team” are secondary to building a contending core for years to come.
“Explain how signing quality players who will produce at or above their current level for the next 5 years is inconsistent with rebuilding.”
This is the easy part. Tieing up the bulk of your cap space to players who have already peaked (Prince, Hamilton, Gordon) hinders your ability to acquire players that might actually help you win a title. not only that but they, when taking up so many minutes, limit the minutes for your building core. Having one of the them to lead by example is smart. Having multiple gunners out there taking the majority of shots is just a waste.
I didn’t realize until after finishing that last post that it was the grizzlies who gave posey and williams to the heat. the grizz received raul lopez (who?) and eddie jones (presumably a large expiring contract) in the five-team trade.
these are the same grizzlies who gift-wrapped pau gasol for the reigning champion lakers.
chris wallace should receive some retroactive executive of the year awards for his contributions to all these title teams.
Boston drafted Pierce, Rondo, Perkins and Jefferson (who became KG). They got Allen for West and draft pick. So…drafting and having high draft picks was critical to their success.
The Lakers essentially drafted Kobe, drafted Bynum. They got Gasol in a giveaway but did give up a draft pick (other Gasol). Ariza, Fisher, Farmar, etc. Yeah, they attract people there but they also made shrewd moves to aquire talent with the draft picks they had.
Miami drafted Wade and Haslem. yeah, Shaq was the key.
The Pistons aren’t Miami, Boston, or LA, but even those teams rely on young talent and shrewd drafting to get to where they are. The Pistons aren’t putting themselves in a position to succeed and that is Joe Dumars’ fault.
haslem was an undrafted free agent who kicked around europe for a while.
the celtics definitely did capitalize on young, “homegrown” talent and high draft picks acquired through sucking, which would support the bottoming-out-first philosophy employed by portland, OkC, and now minnesota.
This is a bad team. It is not a young team. Theres very little hope for the future and Joe Dumars is to be blamed.
I don’t think anyone here thinks we’re gonna win a championship this year. The idea is that we have a core in place who is playing DETROIT basketball, scrapping for wins and improving. That’s the reason being .500 is good. The team is gelling and building a foundation so when we bring in the next piece(s) we can legitimately expect to contend.
Joe has made mistakes. Extending Rip comes to mind. Not drafting Blair is another. All GM’s make mistakes. Dumars makes fewer than most and is fairly adept at cleaning up his own messes. You seem to want to blow up everything just for the sake of doing it.
Tieing up the bulk of your cap space to players who have already peaked (Prince, Hamilton, Gordon) hinders your ability to acquire players that might actually help you win a title. not only that but they, when taking up so many minutes, limit the minutes for your building core. Having one of the them to lead by example is smart. Having multiple gunners out there taking the majority of shots is just a waste.
What exactly do you think should be done? The Hamilton extension was a mistake, but you can’t just magically turn prince into a young guy. Getting younger for youth’s sake isn’t the point. I don’t want to have a firesale and dump all our players for 50 cents on the dollar just to appease uninformed fans’ view that it’s not rebuilding if you don’t fire everyone and rely heavily on the draft. And who is the gunner out of those 3? BG has that rep, but he is scoring incredibly efficiently this year (top 15 per I heard). If that’s a gunner, give me 5 more. Tay is anything but a gunner. And who are they keeping off the floor? Not Stuckey. Even Bynum is getting substantial burn. I love the guy but he is not as good as BG or Rip. He’s getting the perfect amount of minutes. Also, he’s 27 years old. Should we dump him because he’s too old? Next year he’s gonna demand at least the MLE. No way we should consider signing him, I guess.
Bottom line is: Gordon will still be producing at AT LEAST his current level in 3 years (i.e. a top ten SG). Prince’s contract will have expired. Rip will be expiring. Ben Wallace will be retired and Ben Gordon may very well be the oldest player on our team at 30. And instead of spending 3 years in the lottery, hopefully our young guys will have been tested in the playoffs and therefore be ready to take the next step.
Mat: You are really pissing me off. I don’t agree with any of your points, and i don’t think anyone else does.
You said BG won’t win us a championship…No shit. We didn’t sign him to win us a championship. We signed him to be a part of a championship team in the next 3-5 years.
Yes, BG has most likely peaked. But he is 27…you act like he’s 32. He still has probably 6 years of quality basketball left, with 4-5 of those at the same level he’s at now, which is a damn good level.
What you said here pisses me off the most…you contradict your own points as well:
“Disagree. Rebuilding is acquiring talent towards winning a championship in 3, 4, 5 or more years. The “needs of the team” are secondary to building a contending core for years to come.”
How does Ben Gordon not fit exactly into what you say here. He wasn’t a need. We have an all-star shooting guard. He wasn’t a positional need, which is what you suggest. He is a high talent.
Make better points and quit contradicting yourself and then I will respect you.
Oh yeah…
“The Pistons aren’t Miami, Boston, or LA, but even those teams rely on young talent and shrewd drafting to get to where they are. The Pistons aren’t putting themselves in a position to succeed and that is Joe Dumars’ fault.”
Look at our last championship. Did we draft Chauncey, Rip, Big Ben, or Sheed? No. We drafted Tayshaun and Memo, and that’s it for the main contributors. Not saying that drafting is not imporant; it definitely is; but we didn’t win our last championship by drafting.
“we have a core in place who is playing DETROIT basketball, scrapping for wins and improving. That’s the reason being .500 is good.”
Hu? What is Detroit basketball? It used to be tough defense, unselfish team play, and a rugged frontline. Villanueva and Gordon do not represent Detroit basketball, as I know it. As I said, if it was the young guys playing, I’d buy your logic, but, unless Tay and Hamilton miss most of the season its going to be old guys playing most of the minutes. This isn’t building for the future its playing for now.
“The team is gelling and building a foundation so when we bring in the next piece(s) we can legitimately expect to contend.”
If you think Gordon, Prince, Hamilton and Wallace are part of a future foundation you’re delusional. This team isn’t close to contending and those guys will be old or retired by the time it is.
“Joe has made mistakes… Dumars makes fewer than most and is fairly adept at cleaning up his own messes. ”
People keep bringing this up as if its validation. Almost every move Joe has made in the last 5 years has been a mistake. His successful moves are few and minor. His dumb moves are many. but the point is, I don’t care to compare him to bad GMs. I want to compare him to good ones. Even when Joe Dumars himself was at his best he wouldn’t have looked at Rick Carlisle and said “every coach makes mistakes and there are worse guys out there”. He recognized: good coach, but this isn’t the situation for him, we need a different guy.” Well, thats true here for our GM.
“You seem to want to blow up everything just for the sake of doing it. ”
No. Theres just nothing here. Daye is the only guy who I’m excited about as a potential foundation piece. Besides that its maybe Stuckey, though he hasn’t shown much promise to be anything better than a mediocre NBA starter, Villanueva and flyers like Jerebko and Summers. Everyone else is expendible. So really, theres just not much to “blow up”. Move tay and rip for whatever assets you can get. Stop wasting time with Kwame Brown and Chris Wilcox and commit to developing a young foundation that can build towards a title.
in other news, I’m watching jazz-sixers, which is off to an entertaining start.
the sixers are trying to run at every opportunity, which is a good idea when none of your starters shoot threes very well.
deron williams is out; rookie eric maynor looks competent so far in his place.
“Bottom line is: Gordon will still be producing at AT LEAST his current level in 3 years (i.e. a top ten SG). Prince’s contract will have expired. Rip will be expiring. Ben Wallace will be retired and Ben Gordon may very well be the oldest player on our team at 30. And instead of spending 3 years in the lottery, hopefully our young guys will have been tested in the playoffs and therefore be ready to take the next step.”
Gordon is not a top 10 SG. First of all: defense. Secondly, yes hes shooting effeciently over a short span, but he’s still the same guy. He hits shots, he’s a good scorer, but he does not thing else.
Who, on this roster, besides Gordon is contributing to your title in 3 years? Thats my whole point, why waste time with these guys. Why just let Tay expire when you can get some draft picks or young players for him? Stackhouse was better than Hamilton when dumars made that trade. Ideally the same thing would take place now, but Joe has lost his way…
Mat: You can’t just trade away all your veterans when we you want to rebuild.
You know what, i’m not going to respond to you at all. I’ll let the other guys do that.
Here comes the new Khandor.
People are getting hung up on the drafting thing. No, you don’t have to draft to win a title, but you do have to acquire young talent one way or the other and the draft is the most direct way to do that. Playing and acquiring mature players who aren’t all-stars isn’t a recipe for rebuilding.
The 2004 Pistons were built by trading away a mature talent (stackhouse) for a younger (and at the time inferior) player and signing a young PG. Both were high lotto picks. They drafted Prince. They were handed Sheed and Ben for next to nothing. They rebuilt FROM SCRATCH. They hit bottom when Hill left and things looked hopeless, but they fit the mold of a classic rebuild: hit bottom then start adding young talent and building an identity.
THIS pistons teams is simply treading water. If Joe D can rebuild while paying a bunch of Jerry Stackhouses, well kudos to him, but every other team that tries this model fails and their fanbases get disenchanted and they STOP COMING. To parphrase James Carville: its not the economy stupid….or, wait, maybe he said something else.
BG is exactly what the Pistons need. The 2006 Pistons, that is.
.Bandwagon Ass-Cats.
As for mat, I can’t say I agree with you simply because you are stating that rebuilding can only be done one way. I’m not seeing what you are seeing in regards to this team. As for using Boston as an example, that is flawed in itself. Ainge had no plan, for years they sucked and did nothing to improve, even drafting poorly at times. Ainge and McHale were two desperate men that used their old boys connection to save their skins. Boston remains good as long as KG remains healthy. Considering he is over 30 and has been in the league since high school, he has more miles than similar aged players which makes it harder to remain healthy.
I have much patience for JoD. I would rather he than Ainge anyday.
Where is this “Ben Gordon is 27″ nonsense coming from? Gordon doesn’t turn 27 until the end of the season.
Secondly, I believe Stuckey, Gordon, Villanueva, Daye, and potential Jerebko can all play key pieces in a championship run 2-3 years down the road.
And finally, Gordon has been our best backcourt defender this year. Yes, I said it, Gordon is actually playing pretty good defense. And watching the last game shows that when he wants to be, he can be a damn good contributor (I wouldn’t rely on him as a PG, but he’s a lot smarter than what you’re describing).
You complain about all he can do is score, but his scoring is on an elite level. He can score as well as your Dwyane Wade’s and your Kobe Byrant’s. Sure, they’re more complete players, but when it comes to scoring, Ben is their equal. Ben is the elite scorer this team has been searching for the last 4-5 seasons, and I am damn glad we have him.
Oh, and he fired Carlisle cause he was a dick to everyone. It was actually a necessary thing for Carlisle because it humbled him a bit and more him a more effective coach. Also, he called too many damn timeouts.
it is essentially reasonable to state that IF the pistons organization can manage to build another title winner, rip and tayshaun will probably be gone by the time that happens. I don’t entirely agree that the rebuilding isn’t happening (as mat argues)…I just think that it is a work in progress which began with the chauncey trade.
I am relatively optimistic long-term, because if stuckey develops as a point guard (and I think he will) and also improves on defense, then he will be an ideal complement to gordon in the starting backcourt of the future. I think his size will eventually allow him to “cross-match” with gordon on defense.
beyond that, daye and charlie V might eventually be a versatile and high-scoring forward combo…but again, we have to wait and see.
obviously, the core of the future does not include a starting center, but overall I like the individual players who will probably still be on the team 3-4 years out, while conceding that the team is probably several moves away from contention. it’s interesting from a personnel standpoint, if nothing else.
“The 2004 Pistons were built by trading away a mature talent (stackhouse) for a younger (and at the time inferior) player and signing a young PG. Both were high lotto picks. They drafted Prince. They were handed Sheed and Ben for next to nothing. They rebuilt FROM SCRATCH. They hit bottom when Hill left and things looked hopeless, but they fit the mold of a classic rebuild: hit bottom then start adding young talent and building an identity.”
Funny, didn’t we just SIGN two high lotto picks in Gordon and Villanueva? Daye and Stuckey were taken just outside of the lottery. Bynum is only 26, as well, and he looks like a lottery level talent. Jerebko looks to be filling the niche role that Prince filled oh-so-many years ago.
In fact, I’d say the way team is getting built is eerily similar to that 2002-2003 team. Though it probably won’t be as successful (tougher East now).
Laughton
Its true that I can’t say with certainty this method of rebuilding won’t work. I can only look at the evidence of the many team that try this and fail. What Dumars is doing now is completely conventional. Its the same plan that every middling franchise tries to execute. They don’t want to lose so they try to acquire talent here and there while remaining competitive.
The only real point I’m trying to make here is that, while some people will be fooled, many fans would be happier with a 20 win team they can grow with and hope for the future for than a 40 win team that isn’t going anywhere. Its not about this years wins and losses or the economy. Its about direction and hope and having a team that you can be proud of and tell your buddies about.
Oh, and I love the “ass-cats” reference. I remember when the freep (or was it the news) printed that instead of bandwagon-ass. lolz
In all honesty, I think we’re all set at the guard and forward positions.
Stuckey (23), Bynum (26), and Gordon (26)
Villanueva (25), Jerebko (22), and Daye (21)
I definitely think that could be championship caliber in a few years. Maybe a few tweaks here or there, but I’d say it’s on par with out championship rotation. The key will be who is our center rotation.
knicks-warriors is certain to be like some sort of bizarre comedy routine.
“Its about direction and hope and having a team that you can be proud of and tell your buddies about.”
I’m more proud of this year’s team than any team post 2006. This team fights, scraps, claws, and works for every victory it can get. There’s no flipping the switch or we beat ourselves mentality. I’d say this is the hardest working team since the 2001-2002 squad.
okay, I give.
Mat: Do you realize that Ben Gordon is only 1 year and 4 months older than Villanueva? Goddamn. You act like he is in his 30’s already. This team DOES have a future. Stuckey is young, BG is young even though you think he isn’t. CV is young.
Now I swear this is the last thing I post about you.
How does Ben Gordon not fit exactly into what you say here. He wasn’t a need. We have an all-star shooting guard. He wasn’t a positional need, which is what you suggest. He is a high talent.
Cody +1. Expressed it much more succintly than I could have. I’d like to hear Mat respond to that.
@Mat:
I don’t want to get dragged into another Dumars debate. In general I’d like to hear you lay out a positive case for what we should do instead of just saying everyone sucks. If someone better than Dumars is available - then let’s get him. Last I heard RC Buford and Darryl Morey are busy.
What is Detroit basketball? It used to be tough defense, unselfish team play, and a rugged frontline. Villanueva and Gordon do not represent Detroit basketball, as I know it.
You can check tough defense and unselfish team play off the list. If you watched us play these past 2 weeks, you’d know that that Gordon, especially, and Villanueva, increasingly, are buying into that system. This is why everyone here is excited again. As for the rugged front line - Rome wasn’t built in a day. We desperately need a defensive minded center to pair with Villanueva. Someone with some post moves would be a bonus. We need that player going forward. The moves we’ve made to date, in no way preclude getting that player.
If you think Gordon, Prince, Hamilton and Wallace are part of a future foundation you’re delusional. This team isn’t close to contending and those guys will be old or retired by the time it is.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said they were the core. Gordon, Villanueva, Stuck, Bynum, The Swedish Tiger Woods, Daye, Kwame (maybe) - that’s the core for now. Ben Wallace is on a minimum contract - he’s not taking anyone’s roster spot. If we can get comparable talent for Rip or Tay - fine, trade them, but it would be silly to give them away for nothing. In fact, that would be very difficulty because there are few teams that are able to take on salary and would be interested in Rip or Tay.
Daye is the only guy who I’m excited about as a potential foundation piece. Besides that its maybe Stuckey, though he hasn’t shown much promise to be anything better than a mediocre NBA starter, Villanueva and flyers like Jerebko and Summers.
Dude, you need to pick an argument and stick with it. First you wanted Bynum to get more minutes. Then Daye (who hasn’t proven anything) is the only decent player. First Villanueva is a good signing and then he is thrown in with Jerebko and Summers. By the way, Jerebko has looked better than Daye so far. I’m becoming more and more convinced you haven’t watched a single second of this season. And Kwame? I thought you wanted a rugged front line and tough defense. Kwame is supplying great post defense and rebounding in limited minutes for very little money.
Man, I missed an argument? I must be getting weak in my old age.
@Mat:
Check the unemployment statistics for Oregon and they look a lot like Michigan’s
So wait, their percentage totals are similar? Michigan has 10 fucking million people, oregon has 3.8. The unemployment in Michigan isn’t the half of it, it’s the state of Michigan’s government and economy, it’s beyond bankrupt. Just look at the state’s major industry, auto production, and how it is fairing. What is Oregon’s main industry? Rose manufacturing? (not knocking Oregon, awesome state, I just really don’t know).
In short, suggesting Michigan and Oregon are sharing the same economic problems based on “unemployment rate” alone is stat cherry picking. Something we don’t respect here, whether its about economy, basketball, beer or boobs.
Amen - Matt -
Some of the deals - the ticket rep were presenting THIS year were very good -
That kind of income is no longer there right now -
@mat
You act like our roster is set for the next 5 years. In the last year we’ve gotten rid of 3 of our core guys who helped us win a championship. That’s a pretty signifcant roster turnover. You say move Tay and Rip for assets and get it over with but that’s a terrible way of thinking. You say Joe D makes dumb moves, but you’re the dumb one for thinking that way. You want to get maximimum value for your assets and we aren’t winning a title the next couple years no matter what we do, so doesn’t it make sense to hold onto them until we can get the proper value? What’s the difference between making a move right now or a year and a half down the road? Joe D can still deal Tay (expiring deal next year) and possibly Rip over the next couple years to add to our young core.
Comparing our current rebuilding effort to those of Boston/LA or the Pistons from the early 2000’s isn’t a fair comparison. None of the teams you mentioned were in a similar situation to us last year. Going into last year we had a good, but not championship caliber team that was comprised of 5 aging key guys. Stackhouse was our only valuable asset when we traded for Rip. Last year we arguably had 5 valuable assets. It’s unrealistic to expect us to trade all 5 of them for young up and coming players and/or draft picks in one year if you expect to get good value.
Just got caught up on the Mat comments, I shouldn’t have replied. It’s best in this case, DBB, if we don’t feed the trolls and let douche here talk to himself. Hand the boohoo a tissue, tell him everything will be okay in Pistonland, then ignore him.
Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups were both 26 when they came to the Pistons. They were what they were, until they became all stars and led us to a championship.
@MP,
You are correct, sir. But I am at work and well….you know the rest.
One more thing. Detroit has 4 major pro sports teams and two major colleges within a close distance. Portland has the trailblazers and the Ducks…that’s it. There are many more sporting events for metro Detroiters to attend, so comparing the attendance of the Pistons and the Blazers isn’t right b/c their situations aren’t remotely similar.
@colin:
Oh no doubt, I am not one to talk! I’m an arguin’ fool up in this piece. Had I not been out for this, I would have been in the thick, but at this point there’s nothing I cant’ say that anyone else hasn’t said better than I could!
I’m not a troll, just laying out my opinion. People want to get upset and hurl insults, so be it.
If you really think Gordon, Bynum and the rest of these guys are core material theres nothing I can do for.
The comparison to 2004 are ridiculous. The most important thing to note when comparing to Billups and Wallace is that they weren’t getting 11M a year or whatever. The reason the Pistons could add guys like Sheed to the team was that no one was overpaid and most were coming at bargain rates.
Billups was signed for cheap and developed into a top 5 PG in the NBA. He was a top 5 draft pick with talent who was just slow to develop. Gordon is nothing like that. He is physically limited, already at his peak, and paid a large salary. If you’re trying to make that comparison, you’re delusional.
Villanueva also, isn’t wallace. Obviously they’re different players, but dominant defensive centers are so much harder to find than scoring PF.
Yeah, we’ll just be a scoring, defending, true center away from contention…along with every other middling team in the NBA.
‘Selling out’ is a poor measure of enthusiasm. Detroit is playing at less than 80% capacity and drawing more fans than Phoenix who is above 90% capacity and more than Orlando who is selling out every game. And the Pistons are within 300 fans of Oklahoma City which is a new franchise in a pro sports starved market with an exciting young team.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance
@Jim
Theres also the Beavers (closer than the Ducks, FYI.
Portland is a smaller market. Oregon is a smaller state. % increase should cut similarly into the fanbase.
But the main point in that was that when the Blazers had a middling team that was neither rebuilding nor contending attendance fell down. It was a team that hovered around the 8 seed but didn’t fit well with the spirit of the fanbase and people were turned off. When they rebuild, even though they lost, people got interested again.
Which is why economy and winning, while important, don’t explain the real reason for the decline in attendance.
mat,
“economy and winning, while important, don’t explain the real reason for the decline in attendance”
once again, Your contradicting yourself. two years ago we were leading in attendance, we were winners for the most part. and we had not yet experienced the financial collapse,
double digit unemployment. or high fuel prices. We fell hard in standings last year. And the economy is much worse than ‘06. so what is the reason for Detroits decline?
The reason the Pistons could add guys like Sheed to the team was that no one was overpaid and most were coming at bargain rates.”
Thats a good point. however I disagree with anyone on our team being overpaid. One thing you have to credit Joe with is, paying players what they are worth. Ben and CV Have proven already that they are worth the money they earn.
The title of this thread is very indicative of the impending cap drop next year. We will be one of very few teams who will have a MLE.
@Mat:
Just wanted to thank you for those two recent comments, even though I didn’t read them (seriously, not just being cute, I did not read them).
Leave it to a good boohoo’er to make me want to give a big high five to scntfc.
@scntfc:
+1
Not a contradiction. The economy is just an excuse. I listed Portland as an example of a place where the economy has fallen just as, or nearly, as badly and yet the attendance has gone up. And when times were good (economically) attendance was down.
When a fan base is dispirited and disinterested, THATs when you lose fans.
When a fan base is dispirited and disinterested, THATs when you lose fans.
Ahh, gotta love the guys who come on here, speak in declaratives, and refuse to budge from their position.
The Hornets put a great product out there for a while in post-Katrina New Orleans. Didn’t matter, they were still at the bottom of attendance numbers. The Pacers put out a winning team of unlikable players and filled the seats - then traded those unlikable guys for a bunch of mediocre, low ceiling guys who weren’t going to shoot up strip clubs and the attendance goes to shit. Arguing one side makes you wrong.
@shinons:
Ahh, gotta love the guys who come on here, speak in declaratives, and refuse to budge from their position.
Man, that’s pretty much the common lineage between the newcomers that have been hated by the community. Khandor, Petey, a few this summer like that guy Ali, and our buddy Mat here is trending that way too.
When a fan base is dispirited and disinterested, THATs when you lose fans.”
What can make a fanbase more dispirited and disinterested than what is happening in Michigan?
before the last championship. we were the league leader in attendance. No one was expecting to win it all. but it was an exciting team to watch. the team was a direct reflection of our blue collar work ethic.
To your casual observer (most of whom have money to drop on tickets) The team is still struggling to find it’s identity. To the Willuminati ( the true fans, who for various reasons have to spectate and speculate behind the scenes) that identity is alive and well.
Portland shouldn’t even be mentioned when comparing our situation. lets stick to the top tier teams. LA, SA, BOS, BOS and LA have both missed the playoffs in the last decade. I mention these teams because the demographics and economies of these cities are radicaly different than the one in detroit. It’s highly doubtful that we miss it this year. and the East is better than ever.
Remember the rebuilding on the fly analogy? that is exactly what we are witnessing. No need to bottom out. we are in better position than most. barring more injuries, we will only get better. re-establish our identity in the league, and more people will be willing to make the sacrifice to attend games.
How is this team in a better position that a loser franchise like Sacramento or New Jersey? Or are they more like a team stuck with what they have with no shot of contending like Philly?
New Orleans - post-Katrina…enough said there, one would think anyway. A decimated population for an already small market means no attendance.
As for Indiana, well thats a pretty terrible product they have too, but at least they have a franchise talent in Granger. that might be a decent counter-example.
So, guys…we’re @Washington tomorrow. Stuck’s gonna have his hands full with Gilbert, but BG should be able to murder Washington’s off guards.
It will also be fun to watch Jamison vs. Villanueva. Very similar playing styles.
Btw, ignore this fool, please. I will just get angry reading his comments.
How is this team in a better position that a loser franchise like Sacramento or New Jersey?
History… it always repeats itself, we have more/better building blocks than both. A far superior General Manager.
And contrary to what any hater may say. It is a model organization. for every one city that you name that could do without a team like the Pistons, I will name you two that would just love to make it to the conference finals.
@ Cody,
Friday night blues, nothing better to do. I can stay here, or go argue about the Rosecrusians and the Annunaki and all of that. this is funner. I can do it without having to back up my opinion, facts, etc.
NBA is rip off compared to an NFL game I am not talking Lions. 82 games a year you get plenty of stinkers even if your home team is good. Guys dog it all the time. To spend 100 bucks on a night out for upper bowl tickets big waste
@scnftc:
you shapeshifting reptilian alien overlord, you.
@scntfc: Haha..I love arguing as much as you probably, it’s just that it goes nowhere here. It just pisses me off when i read his stupid, contradictory comments. I mean, how is CV part of the rebuilding process but BG is a washed up vet. Like I said, they are a year apart! lmao. They were teammates in college.
If I could shape shift, I would use that talent to serve as our much needed center. I would set a new precedent for killing babies.
@Cody,
Eventually he will get caught in the quicksand and go the way of the dinosaur named Khandor.
haha. good.
I just watched Will’s dunks like 10 more times. Oh my goodness. Throws it down as hard as anyone.
Did you see the one wade did to Varaho, lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uRN7iJ5CqQ
not that I love Wade, I just cant stand “mopsy”
Afflalo shut Kobe down in the third quarter. Incredible defense.
are the hawks a great example of building a youthful mediocre team you can grow up with and watch them perpetually get the fourth seed? some teams, like chicago and atlanta, just rebuild through a youth movement and it turns out to be crap. there isnt one way to rebuild.
@mp and scnftc
is this turning into a jim marrs board?
Oh man, the Nuggets are just shitting all over the Lakers. And Ty Lawson is fast as hell. Needs to work on his finishing ability, but he deserves minutes.
was matt actually the being known as khandor? he goes by many alias and can appear in forms both fair and foul.
Please never show any Dwywyane Wyade highlights here again.
Denver looks like they’re playing at 300 mph right now. Fun basketball.
wow the clippers really blew it, up by 22 points and then they somehow lose by 15. ouch.
that wasn’t a wade highlight, it was a Varajao highlight!
scntfc
the real highlight is afterwards when varejao cries about it and him and wade get double techs after varejao cant let it go. i think he was emotionally scarred by that dunk.
I believe that the unemployment rate in MI is the highest the nation.
People also want to get the biggest bang for their buck so they are more likely to spend it somewhere else if the quality of play has gone down.
First stop for the Arctic Fox will be right there in Grand Rapids.
The Sarah Palin Going Rogue Book Tour Schedule (Updated)
Still a work in progress, as HarperCollins is filling in the blanks, but here’s what we have so far:
11/18: Grand Rapids, MI - Barnes & Noble, Woodland Mall, 3670 28th St SE, Kentwood, 6 PM (Link)
@Mike:
I believe that the unemployment rate in MI is the highest the nation.
I believe that the skill of los angeles area high school basketball players is the highest in the nation.
Hey, that Palin signing is just a little bit away from my place. It’s a brand new Barnes & Noble. Anyone else want to go? Guys?
the nuggets have definitely become my second team. i am real happy for affalo and he looked good in the first quarter. he fills the dauntay jones role but without the dirtiness. it is just glue defense.
i would love to go to the palace. every time i see the acres of empty seats i wonder… but then there is the plane ticket…i guess i will wait for the pistons to visit the garden for their annual beatdown at the hands of the perpetually inept knicks. maybe this year will be different?
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4292/bengordonmaverickhunter.png
Just released by Kblaze.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xnRwLaE42w
I don’t usually get in to those videos, but holy hell– awesome!
MP,
I just checked the fantasy league and I salute your new team name.
Speaking of bandwagon fans, Buzz from Home Alone is definitely guilty on that count. The dude had a cardboard cutout of MJ in his room and a full size poster of Isiah. Whaaa?
@dandresden: actually, i’m the only one that said that. Only because he was starting to piss me off like khandor lol
@scntfc: yeah i saw that dunk too. God I hate Vara-HO
@Birdman: I live about 10 minutes away from woodland mall, and my sister works at the MC sports directly across from it, but no way am I going to that lol
Man, that video reminded me just how dominant the Bad Boys were. They were so deep and tough, its hard to imagine ever reaching that level of greatness again. As good as the 05-06 team was, I’d say the 88-89 team would spank them off the floor. Those 63 80s wins were against considerably better teams than the 64 modern wins. It just makes you wonder, if you take out the phantom foul and Bird’s steal, could they have won 4 straight titles - that’s scary good.
I’ve always wondered, why is there a rift between Isiah and the rest of the pistons? He would be the perfect mentor for Rodney Stuckey, and Dumars could have easily brought him over once New York dumped him. I recall Mr. D saying that Isiah had some kind of ritual/act that he refused to allow for employees. Perhaps drugs or excessive gambling?
I myself am too young to remember Isiah playing, so I don’t really understand the whole situation. Please enlighten me.
@ Diablo,
Where do I begin? The bounce passes converted into alley oops, Lambier connecting on right hooks, Isiah shaking a whole team off the dribble, the constant displays of all for one, one for all. I had forgotten how crafty of a passer Isaih was.
One of my favorite scenes is the 2:20 mark. Reminds me of a scene from the classic movie “WARRIORS” when they are meeting up at the park. You just automaticly know some shit is ’bout to go down.
outside of the Bulls, who from the East has a greater legacy in the East since the BAD BOY era? no one!
I think it’s a combination of TVs getting better, the economy, and the fact that last year — let’s face it — the team was not just disappointing, but some guys were clearly mailing it in, and at least one guy was really unlikeable. The first two points don’t measure “bandwagon” fans. The folks with the 50 inch plasmas and the folks who are cutting back on nights out may still be watching at home. We’ll see if this year’s team is likeable, if not elite — I think some early signs point to yes.
The location is an interesting point. Obviously, it hasn’t changed recently, so it’s not a variable for the past few years. But I will say, coming from south of Detroit, it’s a much bigger pain to get to the Palace than to get to Ford/Comerica.
joejoejoe posted some interesting stats about Detroit actually getting better attendance than other teams who claim a higher “percentage” attendance. I guess that still leaves the question of hy Detroit’s attendance has gone down.
Colin +1 for good points and also giving a shout out to Eli’s “the Tiger Woods of Swedish basketball” line.
Mike Payne: how does one cherry-pick stats re boobs?
@TJ:
Mike Payne: how does one cherry-pick stats re boobs?
For purposes of national security, I’m not at liberty to say…
Mat,
I share some parts of your pessimism, but I try to balance it out by remembering that there’s no way that JoD is done reshaping this roster.
I think he full well knows that we need the next version of the Wallace Brothers (even though the current Wallace looks a lot younger and better than JoD even hoped). I think he full well knows that we can’t spend 20+ million per year at SG. I think he knows that CV and BG aren’t going to put us over the top but rather could be very potent offensive pieces to a bigger team puzzle. I think he full well knows that Stuckey’s development hasn’t happened as quickly as we had all hoped, but it’s far too soon to write him off completely — Stuck, for all his flaws, has enormous potential.
And one last thing — JoD has been good about admitting and cleaning up his messes in the past. I’m as emotional about the Stons as anyone, and I don’t always remember all this myself — but I think JoD does ultimately know that his work simply cannot be done yet.
brgulker:
+1,000
So, Okafor is being shopped for expiring deals.
Joe, you make this happen and you make this happen right now.
I find it hard to believe that when Joe offered Rip his contract, He didnt look to the end of the season and project the best and worst case scenarios. That is one of the resposibilities of being a GM(looking ahead).
At that time he also Had to know that CV&BG would be availible. He even admitted as much, saying that he had his eye on BG for quite sometime. My assumption is that he knew at the start of 08 that he would puruse BG.
In our eyes 20 mill is a lot to spend at SG per year. but in the bigger picture there are plenty of players who have made 20 mil per season. Rip alone, has held his own against a few of them. there are also quite a few who aint had half of the consistency/professionalism of Rip.
Brand, McGrady,Iverson,Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis.starbury, Baron Davis, all bring different variables to the game. but which one of those would you take over Rip? ok, Which one would you take over both Rip and BG? I say this because I don’t see the urgency or preponderance in moving Rip (or even Tay.)
Now over the summer I too was soured by the AI thing and didnt think it would work. But right now… I’m sold. We may not get back to championship level with this squad.but once we become “cohesive” I see no reason why we cant be a 50 win team.
Rip and Tay are cogs, our 2nd and 3rd best defenders. I dont see us gettting much better by trading one of them. I think Joe is looking at free agency. unless of course we get a hell of a steal. which is very unlikely.
We too are looking forward to 2010 (MLE), we will be right at the cap, almost all conteders for the championship are over it. If we are near contender status, Mrs. Davison will surely loosen her purse strings.
and go over the cap to win a “Belt”!
Brown and Prince works for Okafor and Mo Pete. Yeah, it’s only $4M expiring (4 less than Kenny Thomas’s contract), but they want a wing in a bad way and tay expires next season, injured or not. Unlikely, but a guy can dream…
Let’s not forget on that championship team we had: Lindsey, Mike james, Chancey and rip. we were deep at gaurd.
@SCNTFC
Yes but the difference is that all together, those 4 guards cost $20 million. Now, I personally like having both Ben Gordon and Rip. I think they can play off each other very well; not to mention it should free up Rodney quite a bit. I would have definitely preferred that Rip got a shorter extension, but we’ll see how that works out 3 years from now. I’m sure by then we’ll know if this team can contend or not.
Really my biggest concern is to get another scoring big for about what Tay makes. Whether that comes through free agency, directly through trade, or indirectly through trade I don’t really care. I think for the right price Tay can still be very useful for this team, but certainly not at $10 mil/ year. He and CV are playing at each others’ contract level. Besides, Joe proved that decent small forwards can be found in the draft left and right.
At the very least, unless Joe pulls another Sharpe, we should land a very good frontcourt prospect. This draft is LOADED with bigs, most of them with pretty good defensive upside. Now not many of them can score like Charlie, but who knows what you can find. The Nets snagged Brook Lopez at 10 and look at what he’s doing now.
@brgulker
Believe me, I’d love to see positives but I don’t.
Its true Joe is good about admitting his mistakes. I do have a great deal of respect for Joe as a person and for his accomplishments. Its not that he’s stupid, its just that he’s completely moved away from what made him a success.
I agree that Joe recognizes this isn’t a finished product. I mean…obviously, right? The problem I have is that in the last 5 years Joe hasn’t shown that he is the guy to deliver the right plan to get there. Last season he gave away Billups for nothing when he had value. He let Sheed and Dyess walk away for nothing, and he extended his SG for no good reason whatsoever. THEN, he drafts 3 players for the same position and signs a scoring guard and wing to add to the 3 scoring guards he already had.
I have no problem with BG or CV as complimentary pieces but building around them just doesn’t make any sense.
Sometimes reality calls for it pessimism.
@TJ:
That was really a shot out to Toledo Joe.
The NBA is struggling because David Stern has had his way for the last 20 years.
At the surface, this seems like a strange thing to say seeing that the league also was able to sustain unprecedented growth and player salaries went through the roof.
Unfortunately, two things that also hurt the game immeasurably also happened during this time period.
1. More and more people stopped being fans of teams, and started being fans of SuperStars. The fans allegiance followed their favorite player from team to team. They no longer go to see local games unless their favorite SuperStars happened to be visiting. Unlike the “team” fan, who goes to watch his local team regardless of who plays for them.
2. The fan base itself became more casual. NBA arenas were able to raise prices due to the new found popularity of the game. They actually priced the hardcore fan right out of the arena (check the Palace from 2004-2008 for evidence of this). Now that the casual fans no longer have the extra money to spend to go to games, they have re-prioritized. The NBA was never that important to them, just a diversion. Now they are spending on more important things to them.
Meanwhile, the hardcore fan (in the minority for the last 15 years) might like to go to more games, but has gotten so used to seeing the game in the comfort of his home on his HDTV, that he no longer sees the need to spend $100 to go to a game (includes parking, concessions, etc).
In short, the NBA is a victim of its plan to emphasize the personalities of its players over loyalty to its teams, as well as its reliance on a casual fan base who no longer feels it is a priority.